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If You Happen To Be Tired Of Hearing, And The Topic Is Getting Old

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,206
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Imagine you are reading yet another thread that starts off with the premise that Sikhism is just another branch of Hinduism. And the comment goes on to say that Waheguru isn't really all that important because His Name only comes up about 10 times in Siri Guru Granth Sahib. And then someone else is saying that after all the God of the Sikhs is Rama, is Vishnu, is Shiva, is Krishna. Because doesn't it say that in Dasam Granth so many times? And all religions are the same anyway, aren't they? So why be so pig-headed about your Sri Akaal, you proud and intractable Sikh?

Consider that all of this just may be motivated by politics. That it may sound like an attempt to soften the differences in the interest of interfaith understanding. But it probably isn't that at all. It probably is an attempt to wound the Sikh identity -- and the reasons for doing this are all motivated by the dark side.

Read this article. Find out why. And find out that Guru Gobind Singh ji wasn't all that keen to worship Rama, not at all. :)

SikhNet News Archive - Sikh Perspective on Guru Granth Sahib has refernces to Rama (Article by Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba - 09/19/2007

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!
 
Feb 15, 2006
512
18
The majority of it comes up from misunderstanding. The Unmanifest uncreated is the Supreme. But the Supreme Unmanifest manifested in the creation. Gurbani describes the manifest creation in terms of the Hindu Mahadevas. Because the Hindu devas are in Gurbani, it isn't historical artifact or mere reference, it has to have a purpose per Guru, not some politician. If these devas are in Gurbani how does it wound the Sikh identity?

Nowhere does Gurbani say the Hindu devas are the Parabrahm Ik Oangkar Akal Purakh. Yet, Gurbani does say they are subordinate to the Parabrahm and require the Naam to reach it.

So it seems to me a matter of misunderstanding the subordination. Yet, if the Parabrahm is pervading in all creation, there is God-consciousness in all created things at least in potential form requiring the Naam to merge the manifest created thing back into the uncreated absolute. Because of this potential, all atmas have the potential to merge with the true Self, Paramatma. So in the way of ego being conquered, the I, is the real God because the Akal Purakh resides in every soul.

The Vaishnav Hindus worship Vishnu as the Parabrahm. Gurbani corrects this while acknowledging the 1o Divine incarnations. Yet Vishnu is not the absolute accordng to Gurbani. So no one can say the Sikh God is equal to the Hindu Mahadevs. The Sikh God is beyong the HIndu Mahadevs. That doesn't mean that the Sikh God has not manifest Himself in the Hindu Mahadevs AND all creation...including us.

~Bhul chak maaf
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,206
Harjas ji

Quote it isn't historical artifact or mere reference, it has to have a purpose per Guru, not some politician. If these devas are in Gurbani how does it wound the Sikh identity? End quote

The politicians are not/were not on the Sikhi side in the context of this particular issue. Of course there is/was a purpose to including the Hindu pantheon in Adi Granth, a deeply spiritual reason. And all the Hindu gods and demi-gods are depicted as subordinate to Akaal Purukh. Definitely. Yes.

However, the point of my posting this article -- if i can remember it all these many months -- is that there is a political agenda today to diminish the unique and radical view of God given us in Guru Granth Sahib. This has cropped up on many threads in the past here on SPN, and it can be both demoralizing and misleading to both newcomers as well as young Sikhs, without having the Sikh context for Hindu mythology clearly laid out.

When I spot such a thread under New Posts or Today's Posts, my heart sinks.

Now it appears that you have done just that: provided a concise and probative explanation for the role of Hindu deities in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. So between the article and your exigesis of the place and meaning of Hindu deities, this new, radical and unique view of the Gurus is well laid out and well served, and hopefully it will be understood.

As a belated addition to my response. I copied this from Joginder Singh Foley's signature -- why? I dunno. Maybe just because I am feeling like a not very cerebral, fundamentalist Sikh today.

A SIKH DOES NOT FEAR DEATH BUT DEATH FEARS A SIKH Totally cool Joginder ji!

Just do it! :thumbup:
 

Archived_member2

Archived
Jul 18, 2004
766
3
Germany
Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Harjas Kaur Khalsa Jee!

Quote "Nowhere does Gurbani say the Hindu devas are the Parabrahm . . ."
Indian scriptures also do not say that Devas are the Paarbrahm.

Quote "Yet, Gurbani does say they are subordinate to the Parabrahm and require the Naam to reach it."
This is what I have read in Indian Scriptures too.

Quote "The Vaishnav Hindus worship Vishnu as the Parabrahm."
This may be right but Vishnu is busy sustaining the Paarbrahma's Creation through Brahma. Vishnu can do it only when He is a part of the creation.

Vishnu is another attribute of God. Who else is sustaining His Creation than God Himself?

**************

The author of the article, Aad0002 Jee has suggested all to read, may need a discussion. I do not feel it is worth as the author may be more interested in selling his magazine in Punjabi language.

**************

Quote from Aad0002 Jee "A SIKH DOES NOT FEAR DEATH BUT DEATH FEARS A SIKH."
O Devta! Please come down to earth for the liberation.


Balbir Singh
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,206
Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Quote from Aad0002 Jee "A SIKH DOES NOT FEAR DEATH BUT DEATH FEARS A SIKH."
O Devta! Please come down to earth for the liberation.


Balbir Singh
:rofl: Whose liberation? Yours or mine?

ਜਹ ਰਾਖੈ ਸੋਈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਥਾਨੁ ॥
jeh raakhai soee mukath thhaan ||
Wherever He keeps me, that is the place of liberation for me.

ਜੋ ਜਪਾਏ ਸੋਈ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੨॥
jo japaaeae soee naam ||2||
Whatever He makes me chant, is His Name. ||2||

from Raag Raamkaalee, Mehele 5
 

Archived_member2

Archived
Jul 18, 2004
766
3
Germany
Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all!

I have heard that Dev-sthaan (adobe of Devas) is in heaven. There is no fear of death either, but

liberation is only available at the junction of life at earth. God and earthly body meet there.

Gurdev is singing. Please listen.
ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਮਾਈ ॥
गुर सेवा ते भगति कमाई ॥
Gur sėvā ṯė bẖagaṯ kamā*ī.

ਤਬ ਇਹ ਮਾਨਸ ਦੇਹੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
तब इह मानस देही पाई ॥
Ŧab ih mānas ḏėhī pā*ī.

ਇਸ ਦੇਹੀ ਕਉ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਦੇਵ ॥
इस देही कउ सिमरहि देव ॥
Is ḏėhī ka*o simrahi ḏėv.


ਸੋ ਦੇਹੀ ਭਜੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ॥੧॥
सो देही भजु हरि की सेव ॥१॥
So ḏėhī bẖaj har kī sėv. ||1|| SGGS Ang 1159

Aad0002 Jee, your Sikh Devtaa may be living in heaven without fear of death.

Gurdev sings about the human birth and body. Obtaining it Mokh (Liberation) becomes possible.

**************

Thanks for referring the wonderful Vaaks from from Raag Raamkaalee, Mehele 5.

ਜਹ ਰਾਖੈ ਸੋਈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਥਾਨੁ ॥
jeh raakhai soee mukath thhaan ||
Wherever He keeps me, that is the place of liberation for me.

May I ask whether that place is on earth or in ether?

ਜੋ ਜਪਾਏ ਸੋਈ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੨॥
jo japaaeae soee naam ||2||
Whatever He makes me chant, is His Name. ||2||

May I ask why many Sikhs have started japping another words than the wise Gurus suggested often?


Balbir Singh
 

spnadmin

1947-2014 (Archived)
SPNer
Jun 17, 2004
14,500
19,206
Thanks for referring the wonderful Vaaks from from Raag Raamkaalee, Mehele 5.

ਜਹ ਰਾਖੈ ਸੋਈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਥਾਨੁ ॥
jeh raakhai soee mukath thhaan ||
Wherever He keeps me, that is the place of liberation for me.

May I ask whether that place is on earth or in ether?

Balbir Singh
On earth or ether? Actually neither one. Not in any dimension as I comprehend that place.

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਨੁ ਜੀਤਿਆ ਗਤਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਘਰੈ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਇ ॥
gur kai sabadh man jeethiaa gath mukath gharai mehi paae ||
Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the mind is conquered, and one attains the State of Liberation in one's own home.



But we may be digressing from the thread topic. Or maybe not.
 
Feb 15, 2006
512
18
Quote "Nowhere does Gurbani say the Hindu devas are the Parabrahm . . ."
Indian scriptures also do not say that Devas are the Paarbrahm.

Quote "Yet, Gurbani does say they are subordinate to the Parabrahm and require the Naam to reach it."
This is what I have read in Indian Scriptures too.

Quote "The Vaishnav Hindus worship Vishnu as the Parabrahm."
This may be right but Vishnu is busy sustaining the Paarbrahma's Creation through Brahma. Vishnu can do it only when He is a part of the creation.

Vishnu is another attribute of God. Who else is sustaining His Creation than God Himself?
Interesting. Yes it does seem as if the Hindu Mahadevas are the dimensional forces of manifestation. Naturally it would make sense that Maya holds the manifestation like gravity. It seems to be the created design.


And you are also right about this:

I have heard that Dev-sthaan (adobe of Devas) is in heaven. There is no fear of death either, but

liberation is only available at the junction of life at earth. God and earthly body meet there.

Gurdev is singing. Please listen.


ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਮਾਈ ॥
गुर सेवा ते भगति कमाई ॥
Gur sėvā ṯė bẖagaṯ kamā*ī.

ਤਬ ਇਹ ਮਾਨਸ ਦੇਹੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
तब इह मानस देही पाई ॥
Ŧab ih mānas ḏėhī pā*ī.

ਇਸ ਦੇਹੀ ਕਉ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਦੇਵ ॥
इस देही कउ सिमरहि देव ॥
Is ḏėhī ka*o simrahi ḏėv.

ਸੋ ਦੇਹੀ ਭਜੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ॥੧॥
सो देही भजु हरि की सेव ॥१॥
So ḏėhī bẖaj har kī sėv. ||1||
SGGS Ang 1159

Here is a question:
so dhaehee bhaj har kee saev
How to vibrate the Naam with the body (sarir) without placing consciousness (surti) on the breath (praan) of Naam abhiyaas (pranayama)?
 
Feb 15, 2006
512
18
Life is this precious opportunity to seek Vaheguru.

ਸਰਪਰ ਉਠੀ ਚਲਣਾ ਛਡਿ ਜਾਸੀ ਲਖ ਕਰੋੜਿ ॥੩॥
sarapar outhee chalanaa shhadd jaasee lakh karorr ||3||
It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions. ||3||

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਭ੍ਰਮਤਿਆ ਦੁਲਭ ਜਨਮੁ ਪਾਇਓਇ ॥
lakh chouraaseeh bhramathiaa dhulabh janam paaeioue ||
Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਸੋ ਦਿਨੁ ਨੇੜਾ ਆਇਓਇ ॥੪॥੨੨॥੯੨॥
naanak naam samaal thoon so dhin naerraa aaeioue ||4||22||92||
O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near! ||4||22||92||
~SGGS Ji p. 50
 

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