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Hukam And Medical Treatment

findingmyway

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A question that frequently comes up in kids gurmat classes which I am unable to satisfactorily answer is:

If we are supposed to accept Waheguru's hukam and retain the body in the state given to us by Him, then why is medical treatment acceptable?

The tack I often take is to say that:

1) It gives others a chance to do seva.

2) We are remaining within Waheguru's hukam if the treatment is aiming to restore normal bodily function and therefore improve quality of life. If the treatment is for vanity (plastic surgery) or to change the body to give you better function than that normally expericed in nature (eg there is research into developing glasses which give super good vision-beyond that which is normally found in humans) then that is no longer acceptable.

3) Diseases exist because if everyone was in perfect working order we would not appreciate the amazing body given to us by Waheguru to function on this Earth.

One argument for keeping kesh and not having piercings is that is the way that we were made so why distort it. How to explian why these are different from accepting medical problems as requiring intervention when that is the way we were made?

Please do not focus on hair or piercings etc. These are used as examples as that is the question that comes up. Please focus on the question about medical interventions.

Thanks for your feedback,
Jasleen Kaur
 

spnadmin

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findingmyway ji

The kids always come up with questions to stump us! swordfight

You asked that we not focus on hair and piercings. Forgive me, but the arguments often given that this is how Waheguru made us are the weakest of the weak IMHO. That is why kids seize on that immediately and then bring up all the other things we do that in fact alter our natural states, such as take antibiotics when we have infections or take vitamin supplements to correct various conditions like anemia.

But in reply to your main question. It is also the hukam of Waheguru that there be doctors and medicines, that there be breakthroughs in medical research that lead to the cure of once incurable diseases. Waheguru is Creator, Sustainer, Shelter and Support, as well as Destroyer. On this planet we are given the opportunity to be part of his play, to chose to act in the script He has written. To be a doctor, a medical care-giver of any kind, to do medical research and discover the frontiers of cure, is to be a part of his sustaining force. Without his hukam the choice would not be there.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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That is WHY Guru Arjun Ji accepted the fact that for Him..HUKM is to sit on the Hot Plate. Read His Gurbani..DOSH na kahoon deon..I DONT BLAME anyone per se..Simply because Jehnagir is also in HIS HUKM..Chandu is also in HIS HUKM..the Jalaad pouring hot burning sand onto Guru Jis head is also in HIS HUKM....Nature at its BURNING HOTTEST SUMMER is also in HIS HUKM...so since everything is HIS HUKM...who can be "blamed"...DOSH NA KAHOON DEON...every piece in the JIGSAW has its UNIQUE PLACE..and Guru Arjun Ji's just happens to be on the HOT PLATE.....while Jehangir's is on his throne at delhi. BOTH are in HIS HUKM. This is why Guru Ji DID NOT ASK Akal Purakh..O FATHER..why do you give ME this poison cup of death to drink ??? Why did you seat me on this burning plate ?? Ours not to question WHY..ours is to do and Die...Each of the Hundreds of thousnads of SIKHS standing in line behind our Sharomani Shaheed Guru Arjun Ji Sahib didnt for a split second DOUBT the HUKM..."why me ??" why not him ??....EACH..even those as young as ZORAWAR SINGH..only FIVE ACCEPTED the HUKM.

Some among us sikhs DIDNT ACCEPT the HUKM...chief one is Baba SRI CHAND who DEFIED his father and revolted to set up his own Panth...Baba Mohree who KICKED Guru Amardass ji in Public...Baba Prithi Chand who worked day and night to kill his younger brother for the assets of Guru Ghar....and many many MORE INFAMOUS SIKHS also exist in our History.
 

sdad

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WGJKK WGJKF! Jasleen Kaur-ji,

IMHO you have answered satisfactorily, certainly in number “2” of your answer.

Perhaps as an additional to your number “2” answer, you should also include:

If we obeyed Wahegurus hukam; ate natural, did a lot of Seva and were free from doubt, I.e. we fully accepted his pana (so we were totally stress free) than there would be no need of medical treatment. The problem is we don’t and generally we our inside is misaligned from the mind, as we know we should do X, Y & Z, but we decide to do something else as it may be fun, etc.

When we make mistakes, its down to us to try and correct them, to give an example: if I were to buy a crane that was specified to lift a weight of 1 ton, however, I try lifting 20 tons, it may break, and than, yes, we will have to fix it. In other words, medical treatment only arises due to misalignment from the Hukum.

In addition, it is possible that past karma requires a person to go through something so they may learn and move on, or perhaps ahankar (I’ness) is needed to be reduced. In this case, you may need medical treatment for perhaps the result of say an outbreak of something totally out of the norm.

Hope this is of some help...

:eek:rangesingh:
Bhul Chuk Maaf, Gurfateh!
 

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WGJKK WGJKF! Jasleen Kaur-ji,
In other words, medical treatment only arises due to misalignment from the Hukum.


:eek:rangesingh:
Bhul Chuk Maaf, Gurfateh!
orangesingh ji

I am also wondering where in Gurbani we are taught that medical treatment is required (I think that is what you are saying) when there is misalignment from Hukam?

How can one be misaligned with Hukam? Everything that arises is according to His Hukam. It would mean Satguruji was at times misaligned with his own hukam, by allowing something misaligned to occur.

.Nature at its BURNING HOTTEST SUMMER is also in HIS HUKM...so since everything is HIS HUKM...who can be "blamed"...DOSH NA KAHOON DEON...every piece in the JIGSAW has its UNIQUE PLACE..and Guru Arjun Ji's just happens to be on the HOT PLATE.....while Jehangir's is on his throne at delhi. BOTH are in HIS HUKM. This is why Guru Ji DID NOT ASK Akal Purakh..O FATHER..why do you give ME this poison cup of death to drink ??? Why did you seat me on this burning plate ?? Ours not to question WHY..ours is to do and Die...Each of the Hundreds of thousnads of SIKHS standing in line behind our Sharomani Shaheed Guru Arjun Ji Sahib didnt for a split second DOUBT the HUKM..."why me ??" why not him ??....EACH..even those as young as ZORAWAR SINGH..only FIVE ACCEPTED the HUKM.
Sukhmani Sahib makes it clear that hukam cannot be avoided.
 

sdad

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Spnadmin / Eropa234,

To answer your questions, can I first ask you where in the Siri-Guru-Granth-Sahib-ji does it say we keep the five K's, what we eat, where we sleep, etc? Moreover, where does it say medical treatment is NOT allowed?


Guidance also comes from the example set by our gurus and from the experience of the many greats in the Sikh sangat over the last 500 years.
From Guru Hargobind-ji's time fitness and looking after the physical body became part of the ethos, and medical treatment was in cases also administered by the Guru's themselves.

I might be wrong however, if you accept, everything is in his hukum, why do anything at all? How does one know what is the Hukum?

To give you my humble viewpoint (and I stand to be corrected). I guess the best way to explain this may be via the Camel story:

So here goes....
There was a Manmukh who owned a big train of Camels he went to a Gurmukh and on hearing "Hukam andher subkoh, bahar Hukum na koieih" mockingly asked, if he should just leave his camels loose in the desert or tie them up (as surely only what was in his Hukum, would happen). The Gurmukh answered; he must tie up his Camels and he must know & Trust what was in his Hukum as that is what would transpire.
So in a similar trait, I would submit medical treatment or other such things of benefit one, should be accepted with the belief that the resultant will be as per his Hukum.

Gurfateh!
 
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eropa234

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Spnadmin / Eropa234,

To answer your questions, can I first ask you where in the Siri-Guru-Granth-Sahib-ji does it say we keep the five K's, what we eat, where we sleep, etc? Moreover, where does it say medical treatment is NOT allowed?
It doesn't state anywhere.

Guidance also comes from the example set by our gurus and from the experience of the many greats in the Sikh sangat over the last 500 years.
From Guru Hargobind-ji's time fitness and looking after the physical body became part of the ethos, and medical treatment was in cases also administered by the Guru's themselves.
Examples set by our Gurus were guided by knowledge and wisdom.

I might be wrong however, if you accept, everything is in his hukum, why do anything at all? How does one know what is the Hukum?
I am in full agreement with your train of thoughts here

To give you my humble viewpoint (and I stand to be corrected). I guess the best way to explain this may be via the Camel story:

So here goes....
There was a Manmukh who owned a big train of Camels he went to a Gurmukh and on hearing "Hukam andher subkoh, bahar Hukum na koieih" mockingly asked, if he should just leave his camels loose in the desert or tie them up (as surely only what was in his Hukum, would happen). The Gurmukh answered; he must tie up his Camels and he must know & Trust what was in his Hukum as that is what would transpire.
So in a similar trait, I would submit medical treatment or other such things of benefit one, should be accepted with the belief that the resultant will be as per his Hukum.
My definition of munmukh is a 'mouth that swallows everything the mind tells" and Gurmukh is a 'mouth that only swallows knowledge'

Thanks you
 
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Balkar Singh

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Gurmukh Jio, Guru fateh,
Not only kids but so many 'wise men' say so. Some other sects in the 'sikh look' are also mischivious. We are heading to the hipocracy too. Criticism and raising doubts is becoming our habit. It's unfortunate.
The Holy Hukam "saabut soorat dastar sira" (GGS-1084) is great. Further questions are absurd and product of THOSE WHO HAVE NOTHING TO DO. Such people seldom recite even Nitnem. Childern often listen and doubt. Such discussion should not come to any type of media. Bhul chuk maaf karna ji.
with high regards to all participants
 

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sdad; [COLOR=black said:
So in a similar trait, I would submit medical treatment or other such things of benefit one, should be accepted with the belief that the resultant will be as per his Hukum.[/COLOR]

Gurfateh!
sdad ji

If that is your conclusion, then we do not disagree. That was my earlier point. So now you leave me wondering why this was one of your earlier points.

Originally Posted by sdad View Post
WGJKK WGJKF! Jasleen Kaur-ji,
In other words, medical treatment only arises due to misalignment from the Hukum.



Bhul Chuk Maaf, Gurfateh!
How am I misunderstanding you?
 
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SPNADMIN,
"HUKAMu is a word of great philosophy of Gurbaani.This is also accepted when our
GUROO blesses the person .That is why this is possible with very few of us.
But once a person becomes under HUKAMu,He is beyond all if and buts of any ailments
because he is perfectly tuned with HUKAMu and is in a state of PARAMPAD where effects of any ailments become ZERO and This is also the ULTIMATE BLISS.
Since every incidence however small it may be ,is happening under HUKAMu .Once this is accepted then anything should bbe acceptable without any blame.
Under HUKAMu what is being realised can not be put into words.
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

Rupinder.Singh

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Hukum vs medical treatment , a great topic to strech our minds..Thanks very much for sharing.



In my opinon, and as highlighted by Gyani Jarnail singh ji, "Hukmai ander sabh ko.. bahr hukam na koi"

So even if we think wht is right and what is not, is actually happening under HIS hukum.

Sikh means a life long learner, and best learning comes through asking questions, I am glad that kids are asking these questions. At least they are using the power given by GOD, the power to think and reflect and make the right informed decision of thier actions.

Guru Arjan DEv ji, accepted the Hukum. He could have also agreed to Jahangir's demands and still utter the same words saying "It was His Hukum"

But Guru ji did not do that, cos through Gurbani's enlightenment he made a decision to go against Jahangir's cruelity. He stood by what he preached. He stood by the right. He displayed the change, he wanted in others.

Body is just a vehicle, driven by soul. Sikh way of life is all about healthy mind, body and soul. Only a healthy mind, body and soul can set a good example for others to follow and thus make the right decision.

Making the right decision is also governed by underlying intentions, if the underlying intentions are worng, decisions cant be right.

So if intentions to have medical treatment is to achieve a healthy mind , body and soul then there is nothing wrong in it.


Now if I am sick and medical operation requires me to cut my hair for a short time span, i cant find anything wrong in it as I am following the target towards healthy mind, body and soul guided by Gurbani. Once I am healthy, obivioulsy my hair will grow back ( this is intention).


On the other hand, in most of the cases, piercing is mainly governed by social acceptance. it is either lack of confidence in oneself or following others without any thoughtful reflection before making this decision. Cos social acceptance is mainly led by fear of rejection, whereas Gurbani guides us to be Nirbhau (ie. fearless)


rest on your thoughts..



keep flowing....


Rupinder Singh

mundahug
 

sdad

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eropa234,

My definition of munmukh is slightly different, it's somebody egoistic who does what he likes, and Gurmukh is someone who goes on what Guru-ji / Akaal-purakh requires so he/she listens to this / inner self and puts it into action.


Gurfateh!
 

sdad

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WGJKK WGJKF spnadmin,

I'll try and explain (I know I am not too good at this): I said medical treatment only arises due to misalignment from the Hukum as; my part definition of Hukum may be different to yours- although some may call this the inner voice, I also call this his Hukum, and from my personal experiences not listening to these has had dire consequences. I believe WaheGuru-ji has given us a choice, akin to a driver of this vehicle who chooses to obey road laws or not. Not obeying the laws may result in fines or accidents etc (hence, Misalignment), If ones mind is in turmoil than it's likely this will manifest itself into a a physical condition which in turn may require medical attention. If one absolutely believes in the Guru-ji, their mind is not going to get into any turmoil so the issue does not arise.
As another example if one goes overboard on drink when clearly the bani says otherwise than the consequences may lead to liver damage (hence, Misalignment). I fear the mis-understanding may have been down to my limited vocabulary / definations.

Bhul Chuk maaf.
Gurfateh!
 

eropa234

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WGJKK WGJKF spnadmin,

I'll try and explain (I know I am not too good at this): I said medical treatment only arises due to misalignment from the Hukum as; my part definition of Hukum may be different to yours- although some may call this the inner voice, I also call this his Hukum, and from my personal experiences not listening to these has had dire consequences. I believe WaheGuru-ji has given us a choice, akin to a driver of this vehicle who chooses to obey road laws or not. Not obeying the laws may result in fines or accidents etc (hence, Misalignment), If ones mind is in turmoil than it's likely this will manifest itself into a a physical condition which in turn may require medical attention. If one absolutely believes in the Guru-ji, their mind is not going to get into any turmoil so the issue does not arise.
As another example if one goes overboard on drink when clearly the bani says otherwise than the consequences may lead to liver damage (hence, Misalignment). I fear the mis-understanding may have been down to my limited vocabulary / definations.

Bhul Chuk maaf.
Gurfateh!
In that case how does mind or body deal with viruses, bacteria and genetic makeup of human body. Most of these elements are external and what about weakening of the immune system simply due to age.
 

sdad

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eropa234,

IMHO, aging is part of his hukum. Also as you know viruses don't effect every body the same way, I even recall a women in her 90s who told me she had never suffered from even a flu. Also, in my view the immune systems are definately effected by mind and thoughts, etc.
Anyway, I don't profess to knowing everything, I am mearly sharing my understanding.

Gurfateh!
 

spnadmin

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WGJKK WGJKF spnadmin,

I'll try and explain (I know I am not too good at this): I said medical treatment only arises due to misalignment from the Hukum as; my part definition of Hukum may be different to yours- although some may call this the inner voice, I also call this his Hukum, and from my personal experiences not listening to these has had dire consequences. I believe WaheGuru-ji has given us a choice, akin to a driver of this vehicle who chooses to obey road laws or not. Not obeying the laws may result in fines or accidents etc (hence, Misalignment), If ones mind is in turmoil than it's likely this will manifest itself into a a physical condition which in turn may require medical attention. If one absolutely believes in the Guru-ji, their mind is not going to get into any turmoil so the issue does not arise.
As another example if one goes overboard on drink when clearly the bani says otherwise than the consequences may lead to liver damage (hence, Misalignment). I fear the mis-understanding may have been down to my limited vocabulary / definations.

Bhul Chuk maaf.
Gurfateh!
sdad ji

Thank you for taking the time to clarify your views. It seems we are then in close agreement, and what seemed to be a difference of views may have been nothing more than a difference in specific uses of words. :) Semantics!
 

seeker3k

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Hukam?
<?"urn::eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p> </o:p>
Very interesting topic.
<o:p> </o:p>
Those who believe in Hukam have difficulty with many choices. No two people will agree to same hukam.
<o:p> </o:p>
What about some of the choices: putting cloths on, we came to this world naked. What about going to school learning other languages? How do we choose what to eat?
Should we do exercise? Getting medical treatment to enhance our body and it strong? Should we compete in games? Which religion one choose?
Is it God’s hukam or Nanak’s or Gobind Singh’s?
<o:p> </o:p>
Those don’t believe in hukam still have to choose. What they are not bogged down by so called hukam.
<o:p> </o:p>
It is the Christians who coined the tem that we have free will. I had discussion with Christian about this free will. If I drive and come to T junction I have 2 choices turn left or turn right. If I believe that God knows past n future then I God knows which way I am going to go. Where is the free will in that? God have already decided which way I am going to turn. Or can I over ride God’s decision?
<o:p> </o:p>
You see it is very difficult.
<o:p> </o:p>
What ever is happening is for a reason. If we think we are choosing one thing and it did not happen then it is also in the hukam. If I am doing bad things then it is also in the huakm.
<o:p> </o:p>
Why worry just live what is the hukam. We can not change it. Going to get the medical or not is both in the hukam
 
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HUKAMu and MEDICAL TREATMENT
HUKAMu is the order of THE CREATOR and SHABADu is the seal of the Hukamu.
Since the UNIVERSE is subject to change everymoment therefore HUKAMu of the CREATOR is a continuous function of time and every development in any field of our life is the direct result of Hukamu only.Thus in future times whatever comes before us is the Hukamu of the CREATOR.
In view of above consideration all sorts of ailments are also the result of Hukamu.Similarly Hukamu provides the solutions to the ailments as well.
We remain ignorant about the knowledge of Hukamu because our thought process is under the influence of TRINTY and DUAL characteristics of the UNIVERSE.Unless we come out of this influebce of the Universe it is not possible to grasp the concept of HUKAMu and SHABADu as its SEAL'
There is deep philosophy of ailments in ones life .There is a complex controlling system resposible for various ailments varying from person to person.
GURBAANI does tell us as "SARAB ROG KA AUKHADHu NAAMu{SUKMANI SAHIB} and there are several quotes in Gurbaani in this regard.But there is Ultimate decsion like
"NAAMu AUKHADu SOI JANu PAAWE, KARi KIRPAA JISu AAPi DIWAAWE"pp178-179SGGS ji
indicating and confirming the concept of Hukamu of the CREATOR'
Under these circumstances Gurbaani tells us to to tune our thought process with NAAMu of the CREATOR making sincere request{ARDAASi}to bless us for elimination of our AILMENTS.
With the grace of SATiGURU Ji
Prakash.S.Bagga
 

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