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Harper Defends Same-sex Marriage Stance
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<blockquote data-quote="ravisingh" data-source="post: 6461" data-attributes="member: 963"><p>Thecoopes,</p><p> </p><p> Thank-you for your post. I will try to reply to some aspects of your posts from my perspective. Please understand that I post them to understand your view better and are in no way a denigration/disrespect to your beliefs.</p><p> </p><p> Are you sure that God does not approve of two people who love one another being together? Do you think he would prefer that his children who were born homosexual were placed on this earth to suffer? I am always wary of those that claim that God wouldn't like x. What is the basis for such an assertion? Can we be certain that God values more what 2 people do in thier bedroom then say feeding the starving, ending all wars, etc?</p><p> </p><p> There are many aspects of religious texts/scriptures that are meant to be taken metaphorically and not literally. How do we know that the supposed sin of homosexuality should be understood in these terms? For example, I doubt that the following biblical passages (St. James version) relating to slavery were to be taken literally:</p><p> <strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #000000">[size=-1]1. How did Jesus say a slave should treat his master?[/size]</span></span></strong> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]<span style="color: #cc0000">(A slave must completely obey and fear his master, even if his master is cruel and unjust) </span> “Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward" (1 Peter 2:18). "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ" (Ephesians 6:5). [/size]</span> </p><p> </p><p> <strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]2. What is God's policy on physical punishment of your slave? [/size]</span></strong> </p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]“A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer” (Proverbs 29:19). “And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye’s sake. And if he smite out his manservant’s tooth, or his maidservant’s tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth’s sake” (Exodus 21:26-27). [/size]</span> </p><p> </p><p> <strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]3. Whom did God tell the Israelites they should turn into their slaves?[/size]</span></strong> </p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]<span style="color: #cc0000">(The people of other tribes living around them) </span> "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids” (Leviticus 25:44). [/size]</span> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> <strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]4. What does God say is to happen to a male slave after six years of service?[/size]</span></strong> </p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1] “If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever” (Exodus 21:2-6). [/size]</span> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> <strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]5. What does God say should happen to a master who beats his slave to death?[/size]</span></strong> </p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]<span style="color: #cc0000">(He should avoid all punishment if the slave survives for a couple days after the beating)</span> “And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money” (Exodus 21:20-21). [/size]</span> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> <strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]6. Does God allow you to sell your daughter into slavery?[/size]</span></strong></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]<span style="color: #cc0000">(Yes. And the situation is not unbearable for her since, if her master takes her as his wife and she does not please him, he must set her free)</span> “And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation, he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife: her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish” (Exodus 21:7-10). [/size]</span> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> <strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]7. What punishments does God mandate when an ox gores a free man and when an ox gores a slave?[/size]</span></strong></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]“If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit. But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. . . . If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned” (Exodus 21:28-32). [/size]</span> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> <strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]8. What was the plight of those not born Israelites?[/size]</span></strong> </p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]<span style="color: #cc0000">(They were to be taken by the Israelites as slaves, and their children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc. were destined to be slaves)</span> “Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever" (Leviticus 25:44-46). [/size]</span> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> <strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]9. What conduct by slaves does Jesus dislike?[/size]</span></strong> </p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]<span style="color: #cc0000">(Insincerity and Rudeness)</span> “Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God” (Colossians 3:22; see also Ephesians 6:5-6). “Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things” (Titus 2:9-10). </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"> [/size]</span></p><p> </p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]<strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]10. What effect does God say warfare has on slavery?[/size]</span></strong> [/size]</span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]<span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]<span style="color: #cc0000">(Whereas the men in any community invaded must be killed, the women and children are to be taken as slaves) </span> “And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee” (Deuteronomy 20:13-14).</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"> [/size]</span>[/size]</span></p><p> </p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]<span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">[size=-1]It is also important to note that the concept of minority rights was not commonplace in the time of the writing of the bible or most other religious works, hence it would, IMHO, be wrong to look for guidance on same-sex marraige in these writings --assuming that you agree with me that this an issue of minority rights.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"> [/size]</span>[/size]</span></p><p> </p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"> I see your point here. However, I think it is important to realize that although the essence of the human condition remains the same, new and novel situations arise that neccisitate a reintreprtation/reunderstanding of the essence of divine messages. Apparently according to some people, God thinks a quicky drunken marriage in Las Vegas between 2 people that do not love each other, have no intention of having children, etc. upholds the sanctity of marraige whereas same-sex marraige does not. I think by arguing this way, people are blindly following words and conventions (taking the easy way out) rather than trying to understand what God's guidance would be on such an issue --this requires going deeper than a literal reading of the texts.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"> </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"> </span></span> First of all I don't know any religion that says that everything is acceptable and down to the individual. Secondly, Sikhism does not prescribe what an appropriate marraige/relationship should be. All writings in the Guru Granth sahib that speak of marraige use the ideal relationship between men and women are used as metaphors for the devotion/duties one has to God --note that since these are used metaphorically they do not constitute a claim on what the nature of the relationship should be or whether it should only be between man and woman. Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji does contain text that indicates that married life is preferable to unmarried life (no doubt as a response to renunciates, sadhus, etc.) but again it does not specify that it should be between a man and women (it's funny how the jathedar has not issued a hukumnama against renunciates --a group that is clearly spoken out against in Sikhism). There are also clear and repeated assertions within Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji</p><p> that lust/passion (along with the other 4 "demons": anger, greed, attachment, pride) should be avoided. However, I don't think this can be taken as an argument against homosexuality since despite this Sikhs are expected to live a householders life.</p><p> </p><p> Thanks for reading my L-O-N-G post!</p><p> </p><p> Rab Rakha</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ravisingh, post: 6461, member: 963"] Thecoopes, Thank-you for your post. I will try to reply to some aspects of your posts from my perspective. Please understand that I post them to understand your view better and are in no way a denigration/disrespect to your beliefs. Are you sure that God does not approve of two people who love one another being together? Do you think he would prefer that his children who were born homosexual were placed on this earth to suffer? I am always wary of those that claim that God wouldn't like x. What is the basis for such an assertion? Can we be certain that God values more what 2 people do in thier bedroom then say feeding the starving, ending all wars, etc? There are many aspects of religious texts/scriptures that are meant to be taken metaphorically and not literally. How do we know that the supposed sin of homosexuality should be understood in these terms? For example, I doubt that the following biblical passages (St. James version) relating to slavery were to be taken literally: [b][font=Verdana][color=#000000][size=-1]1. How did Jesus say a slave should treat his master?[/size][/color][/font][/b] [font=Verdana][size=-1][color=#cc0000](A slave must completely obey and fear his master, even if his master is cruel and unjust) [/color] “Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward" (1 Peter 2:18). "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ" (Ephesians 6:5). [/size][/font] [b][font=Verdana][size=-1]2. What is God's policy on physical punishment of your slave? [/size][/font][/b] [font=Verdana][size=-1]“A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer” (Proverbs 29:19). “And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye’s sake. And if he smite out his manservant’s tooth, or his maidservant’s tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth’s sake” (Exodus 21:26-27). [/size][/font] [b][font=Verdana][size=-1]3. Whom did God tell the Israelites they should turn into their slaves?[/size][/font][/b] [font=Verdana][size=-1][color=#cc0000](The people of other tribes living around them) [/color] "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids” (Leviticus 25:44). [/size][/font] [b][font=Verdana][size=-1]4. What does God say is to happen to a male slave after six years of service?[/size][/font][/b] [font=Verdana][size=-1] “If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever” (Exodus 21:2-6). [/size][/font] [b][font=Verdana][size=-1]5. What does God say should happen to a master who beats his slave to death?[/size][/font][/b] [font=Verdana][size=-1][color=#cc0000](He should avoid all punishment if the slave survives for a couple days after the beating)[/color] “And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money” (Exodus 21:20-21). [/size][/font] [b][font=Verdana][size=-1]6. Does God allow you to sell your daughter into slavery?[/size][/font][/b] [font=Verdana][size=-1][color=#cc0000](Yes. And the situation is not unbearable for her since, if her master takes her as his wife and she does not please him, he must set her free)[/color] “And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation, he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife: her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish” (Exodus 21:7-10). [/size][/font] [b][font=Verdana][size=-1]7. What punishments does God mandate when an ox gores a free man and when an ox gores a slave?[/size][/font][/b] [font=Verdana][size=-1]“If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit. But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. . . . If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned” (Exodus 21:28-32). [/size][/font] [b][font=Verdana][size=-1]8. What was the plight of those not born Israelites?[/size][/font][/b] [font=Verdana][size=-1][color=#cc0000](They were to be taken by the Israelites as slaves, and their children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc. were destined to be slaves)[/color] “Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever" (Leviticus 25:44-46). [/size][/font] [b][font=Verdana][size=-1]9. What conduct by slaves does Jesus dislike?[/size][/font][/b] [font=Verdana][size=-1][color=#cc0000](Insincerity and Rudeness)[/color] “Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God” (Colossians 3:22; see also Ephesians 6:5-6). “Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things” (Titus 2:9-10). [/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=-1][b][font=Verdana][size=-1]10. What effect does God say warfare has on slavery?[/size][/font][/b] [/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=-1][font=Verdana][size=-1][color=#cc0000](Whereas the men in any community invaded must be killed, the women and children are to be taken as slaves) [/color] “And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee” (Deuteronomy 20:13-14). [/size][/font][/size][/font] [font=Verdana][size=-1][font=Verdana][size=-1]It is also important to note that the concept of minority rights was not commonplace in the time of the writing of the bible or most other religious works, hence it would, IMHO, be wrong to look for guidance on same-sex marraige in these writings --assuming that you agree with me that this an issue of minority rights. [/size][/font][/size][/font] [font=Arial][size=3] I see your point here. However, I think it is important to realize that although the essence of the human condition remains the same, new and novel situations arise that neccisitate a reintreprtation/reunderstanding of the essence of divine messages. Apparently according to some people, God thinks a quicky drunken marriage in Las Vegas between 2 people that do not love each other, have no intention of having children, etc. upholds the sanctity of marraige whereas same-sex marraige does not. I think by arguing this way, people are blindly following words and conventions (taking the easy way out) rather than trying to understand what God's guidance would be on such an issue --this requires going deeper than a literal reading of the texts. [/size][/font] First of all I don't know any religion that says that everything is acceptable and down to the individual. Secondly, Sikhism does not prescribe what an appropriate marraige/relationship should be. All writings in the Guru Granth sahib that speak of marraige use the ideal relationship between men and women are used as metaphors for the devotion/duties one has to God --note that since these are used metaphorically they do not constitute a claim on what the nature of the relationship should be or whether it should only be between man and woman. Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji does contain text that indicates that married life is preferable to unmarried life (no doubt as a response to renunciates, sadhus, etc.) but again it does not specify that it should be between a man and women (it's funny how the jathedar has not issued a hukumnama against renunciates --a group that is clearly spoken out against in Sikhism). There are also clear and repeated assertions within Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that lust/passion (along with the other 4 "demons": anger, greed, attachment, pride) should be avoided. However, I don't think this can be taken as an argument against homosexuality since despite this Sikhs are expected to live a householders life. Thanks for reading my L-O-N-G post! Rab Rakha [/QUOTE]
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