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Hard Talk
Guruji To Be Abused AGAIN!
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<blockquote data-quote="Tejwant Singh" data-source="post: 1491" data-attributes="member: 138"><p>This is a very interesting topic as it concerns all of us because marriage is an essential part of GURMAT LIFE.</p><p> </p><p> Before posting it here, I had already given the following response, in return the responses I got are also are posted at the bottom. If theres any objection in posting responses from other forums, pls let me know. Please feel free to add your thoughts on it.</p><p> </p><p>My response:-</p><p> </p><p><<Some questions so that I can understand what the writer is talking about:-</p><p> </p><p>1. How's GURBANI abused by taking it anywhere and indulge in GURBANI VICHAAR?</p><p> </p><p>2. Guru Nanak Dev ji went almost all around the world. If he thought the way the writer does then he would find no need to travel. </p><p> </p><p>3. How far is the Gurdwara from the nearest pub?</p><p> </p><p>4. What kind of distance does the writer think is appropirate between the bar and SGGS?</p><p> </p><p>Now my 2 cent worth.</p><p> </p><p>SGGS is not an Idol to be worshipped and bowed upon. It has to be opened, read and understood and to understand there's no place where GURBANI VICHAR can not take place.</p><p> </p><p>People who think in such a parochial way are nothing but idol worshippers.</p><p> </p><p>Peace & Love</p><p> </p><p>Tejwant Singh>></p><p> </p><p><strong>Responses from SADH SANGAT.</strong></p><p></p><p> </p><p><strong>Dear Sangat Jio, and especially Dear Veerji Tejwant Singh</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>In article <bf.431ad0d7.2e43d8a3@aol.com>, wrote:</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>> Some questions so that I can understand what the writer is talking about:-</strong></p><p><strong>> </strong></p><p><strong>> 1. How's GURBANI abused by taking it anywhere and indulge in GURBANI VICHAAR?</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>"Gurbani" is nothing physical. "Gurbani" can't be abused. BUT Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is the "physical" </strong></p><p><strong>form in which Gurbani is "manifest" so a "physical" form CAN be abused (burned, mishandled, improperly </strong></p><p><strong>used and whatever).</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>It is due to the stupidity of some people who lack the understanding how to NOT insult other's </strong></p><p><strong>religious feelings that the Hukamnamah from Sri Akal Takhat was necessary.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>I haven't every read or heard about a Christian marriage taking place in a hotel. If they decide to </strong></p><p><strong>have their marriage made 'valid' by the rites of their church, they are serious about the environment </strong></p><p><strong>too. Why can't we copy that?</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>I haven't ever heard either, that a muslim Nikah is performed in a hotel...</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>What about the Hindus? Having some lovely fire in a hotel???</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>> 2. Guru Nanak Dev ji went almost all around the world. If he thought the way </strong></p><p><strong>> the writer does then he would find no need to travel. </strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Please explain.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>> 3. How far is the Gurdwara from the nearest pub?</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>How far is the nearest pub from your home? Sometimes you can't have your way if a pub or shop is </strong></p><p><strong>opened. Fortunately most Gurdwaras are quite far from pubs.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>> 4. What kind of distance does the writer think is appropirate between the bar </strong></p><p><strong>> and SGGS?</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>There is absolutely no way to have a bar in the same building as Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Period. And </strong></p><p><strong>vice-versa. Period. </strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>> Now my 2 cent worth.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>> SGGS is not an Idol to be worshipped and bowed upon. It has to be opened, </strong></p><p><strong>> read and understood and to understand there's no place where GURBANI VICHAR can </strong></p><p><strong>> not take place.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Sure. No problem with thinking about Gurbani while sitting on the loo, but you won't seriously suggest </strong></p><p><strong>taking even a Gutka with you????</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>> People who think in such a parochial way are nothing but idol worshippers.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Don't confuse 'Idol' and 'Symbol'.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>I'm usually keeping a 3 foot long Kirpan on me. But I do NEVER take it with me going to the bathroom. </strong></p><p><strong>(That was taught to me by the example of an old Nihang Singh Babaji, looong before I was blessed by </strong></p><p><strong>Guruji with the ability of keeping that Kirpan). I'll always ask one of the Bhenjis accompanying me to </strong></p><p><strong>wash her hands and then keep the Kirpan and my other Shastars for me, if I'm in any public place.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>So my Kirpan etc is a "Symbol" for me (now don't tell me to read 'they are no symbols').</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>> Peace & Love</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>What about "Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh"? You write about 'rahit' and don't even keep </strong></p><p><strong>the little things. <G></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Just my 2 cents...</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>May Waheguru bless you!</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Ranbir Kaur</strong></p><p><strong>(Kathawachak)</strong></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><em>WJKKWJKF</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>The issue and question, and answers are simple.</em></p><p><em>Let me put it this way.Every society is governed by widely widely accepted </em></p><p><em>norms.Those norms are almost the LAW of that given society.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>As such we regard the GURU Granth Sahib as the Shabad GURU-the living shabad </em></p><p><em>Guru .The GURU is our pita,mata parmesar etc...</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Now,in real life many of us have our parents either living near by or with </em></p><p><em>us,those who are lucky enough to have such arrangement and blessings.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>WILL YOU TAKE YOUR FATHER/mother to a house of ill repute ?Or a bar ?or a </em></p><p><em>HOTEL bar where half naked women are viling with half drunks, and blowing </em></p><p><em>smoke almost into your face and that of your parents ? ?</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>I believe for any one with some civil decency,the answer is NO.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Then why we are prepared to accept that the Granth sahib can be taken to </em></p><p><em>such places?</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Anyone is free to conduct their weddings anywhere.But no body should take </em></p><p><em>the freedom to take the GURU sahib into places which are regarded not so </em></p><p><em>decent.Is that very hard to understand ?</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>The offending famlies should be advised that such is not decent or </em></p><p><em>acceptable.This is the role of the Gurduara offcials and the granthi sahib to offer </em></p><p><em>the advise.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>I am sure no Guru fearing Sikh family would dare go against this </em></p><p><em>advice.Where a family waves their NOTES and demand,then the sanagat should come to </em></p><p><em>gether ...and advice ...again I am sure the would take that into account.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Strange it is Ok to upset and tolerate the be adhbhi of the Guru Granth </em></p><p><em>sahib,but not upset the family by telling some home truths about our maryada.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Surely one would not conduct a wedding in a toilet would they ?Then why is </em></p><p><em>the liberty being taken to take the Guru sahib where the required respect/ and </em></p><p><em>standard of honour cannot be given or offered?</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>This what is wrong.No body questions the validity of weddings being held </em></p><p><em>anywhere one likes.However when the issue concerns the collective community, </em></p><p><em>especially so when it is felt that such places are not places one would normally </em></p><p><em>associate with cleaniness,Sikhs need to rise and question.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Chaan SINGH Pardesi</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>I personally prefer the Guru Granth Sahibji stays in the Gurdwara for</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>the marriage ceremony but for different reasons.</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>But I just want to put something in perspective:</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>Has anyone seen this hotel? </strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong><a href="http://www.moathouse.com/html/frameset_top.cfm?section=leisure&content=tours" target="_blank">http://www.moathouse.com/html/frameset_top.cfm?section=leisure&content=tours</a></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>click under Northampton</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>The reason I checked out the picture is that someone mentioned "half</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>naked women."</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>>>WILL YOU TAKE YOUR FATHER/mother to a house of ill repute ?Or a bar</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>?or a HOTEL bar where half naked women are viling with half drunks,</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>and blowing smoke almost into your face and that of your parents?<<</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>I did not see any such women. Now aside from my disappointment, I</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>think this is the kind of hotel I will take my father and mother to.</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>By the way, the Guru Granth Sahib is not the living Guru or pita/mata.</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>That is the SatGuru.</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>Also to make another point, since when did discussing to allow Guru</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>Granth Sahib to this hotel, or to this caliber anyhow, translate to</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>eventually allowing it to a house of ill repute, with naked women, and</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>the bathroom?</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>>>Surely one would not conduct a wedding in a toilet would they?<<</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>Thank you for making that connection. It's wonderful to discuss with</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>people who will make such tangential associations and with such</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>reason! No, it really is.</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>Now I did say I prefer the Guru Granth Sahibji stay at the Gurdwara</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>because it's more of an egalitarian approach. For me, the Sikh</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>marriage ceremony is simple, without the lavish overtones and</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>surroundings. Besides, that's what the receptions are for.</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>But I don't understand the particulars. It's claimed that the local</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>Gurdwara is TOO SMALL. I don't understand how small. I don't</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>understand how big the wedding party is and why can't they just</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>accommodate them at the reception, or if there's one.</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>There are so many details I do not know, so I will reluctantly give</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>them the benefit of the doubt. This is an Exception we are talking</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>about and not the norm.</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>But as for those who think the alcohol nearby will drown the Bani</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>rather than the Bani will drown out all the intoxicants, why not make</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>the bars inactive? Buy out the bars for half the day and close them.</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>For those who are still concerned about the proximity, transplant the</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>liquor some odd feet away.</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>I'm still churning this matter inside my head. Any reasonable</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>discussions are welcome to shed light on this topic.</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>Thank you. </strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>Narinder Singh</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong>NY </strong></span></p><p> </p><p><strong>INPUT from ALL is needed.</strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>Thanx</strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>Peace & Love</strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>Tejwant.</strong></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong> </strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Century Gothic'"><strong></strong></span><strong> </strong></p><p><strong></strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tejwant Singh, post: 1491, member: 138"] This is a very interesting topic as it concerns all of us because marriage is an essential part of GURMAT LIFE. Before posting it here, I had already given the following response, in return the responses I got are also are posted at the bottom. If theres any objection in posting responses from other forums, pls let me know. Please feel free to add your thoughts on it. My response:- <<Some questions so that I can understand what the writer is talking about:- 1. How's GURBANI abused by taking it anywhere and indulge in GURBANI VICHAAR? 2. Guru Nanak Dev ji went almost all around the world. If he thought the way the writer does then he would find no need to travel. 3. How far is the Gurdwara from the nearest pub? 4. What kind of distance does the writer think is appropirate between the bar and SGGS? Now my 2 cent worth. SGGS is not an Idol to be worshipped and bowed upon. It has to be opened, read and understood and to understand there's no place where GURBANI VICHAR can not take place. People who think in such a parochial way are nothing but idol worshippers. Peace & Love Tejwant Singh>> [b]Responses from SADH SANGAT.[/b] [b]Dear Sangat Jio, and especially Dear Veerji Tejwant Singh Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh In article <bf.431ad0d7.2e43d8a3@aol.com>, wrote: > Some questions so that I can understand what the writer is talking about:- > > 1. How's GURBANI abused by taking it anywhere and indulge in GURBANI VICHAAR? "Gurbani" is nothing physical. "Gurbani" can't be abused. BUT Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is the "physical" form in which Gurbani is "manifest" so a "physical" form CAN be abused (burned, mishandled, improperly used and whatever). It is due to the stupidity of some people who lack the understanding how to NOT insult other's religious feelings that the Hukamnamah from Sri Akal Takhat was necessary. I haven't every read or heard about a Christian marriage taking place in a hotel. If they decide to have their marriage made 'valid' by the rites of their church, they are serious about the environment too. Why can't we copy that? I haven't ever heard either, that a muslim Nikah is performed in a hotel... What about the Hindus? Having some lovely fire in a hotel??? > 2. Guru Nanak Dev ji went almost all around the world. If he thought the way > the writer does then he would find no need to travel. Please explain. > 3. How far is the Gurdwara from the nearest pub? How far is the nearest pub from your home? Sometimes you can't have your way if a pub or shop is opened. Fortunately most Gurdwaras are quite far from pubs. > 4. What kind of distance does the writer think is appropirate between the bar > and SGGS? There is absolutely no way to have a bar in the same building as Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Period. And vice-versa. Period. > Now my 2 cent worth. > SGGS is not an Idol to be worshipped and bowed upon. It has to be opened, > read and understood and to understand there's no place where GURBANI VICHAR can > not take place. Sure. No problem with thinking about Gurbani while sitting on the loo, but you won't seriously suggest taking even a Gutka with you???? > People who think in such a parochial way are nothing but idol worshippers. Don't confuse 'Idol' and 'Symbol'. I'm usually keeping a 3 foot long Kirpan on me. But I do NEVER take it with me going to the bathroom. (That was taught to me by the example of an old Nihang Singh Babaji, looong before I was blessed by Guruji with the ability of keeping that Kirpan). I'll always ask one of the Bhenjis accompanying me to wash her hands and then keep the Kirpan and my other Shastars for me, if I'm in any public place. So my Kirpan etc is a "Symbol" for me (now don't tell me to read 'they are no symbols'). > Peace & Love What about "Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh"? You write about 'rahit' and don't even keep the little things. <G> Just my 2 cents... May Waheguru bless you! Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh Ranbir Kaur (Kathawachak)[/b] [i]WJKKWJKF The issue and question, and answers are simple. Let me put it this way.Every society is governed by widely widely accepted norms.Those norms are almost the LAW of that given society. As such we regard the GURU Granth Sahib as the Shabad GURU-the living shabad Guru .The GURU is our pita,mata parmesar etc... Now,in real life many of us have our parents either living near by or with us,those who are lucky enough to have such arrangement and blessings. WILL YOU TAKE YOUR FATHER/mother to a house of ill repute ?Or a bar ?or a HOTEL bar where half naked women are viling with half drunks, and blowing smoke almost into your face and that of your parents ? ? I believe for any one with some civil decency,the answer is NO. Then why we are prepared to accept that the Granth sahib can be taken to such places? Anyone is free to conduct their weddings anywhere.But no body should take the freedom to take the GURU sahib into places which are regarded not so decent.Is that very hard to understand ? The offending famlies should be advised that such is not decent or acceptable.This is the role of the Gurduara offcials and the granthi sahib to offer the advise. I am sure no Guru fearing Sikh family would dare go against this advice.Where a family waves their NOTES and demand,then the sanagat should come to gether ...and advice ...again I am sure the would take that into account. Strange it is Ok to upset and tolerate the be adhbhi of the Guru Granth sahib,but not upset the family by telling some home truths about our maryada. Surely one would not conduct a wedding in a toilet would they ?Then why is the liberty being taken to take the Guru sahib where the required respect/ and standard of honour cannot be given or offered? This what is wrong.No body questions the validity of weddings being held anywhere one likes.However when the issue concerns the collective community, especially so when it is felt that such places are not places one would normally associate with cleaniness,Sikhs need to rise and question. Chaan SINGH Pardesi [/i] [font=Century Gothic][b]I personally prefer the Guru Granth Sahibji stays in the Gurdwara for the marriage ceremony but for different reasons. But I just want to put something in perspective: Has anyone seen this hotel? [url]http://www.moathouse.com/html/frameset_top.cfm?section=leisure&content=tours[/url] click under Northampton The reason I checked out the picture is that someone mentioned "half naked women." >>WILL YOU TAKE YOUR FATHER/mother to a house of ill repute ?Or a bar ?or a HOTEL bar where half naked women are viling with half drunks, and blowing smoke almost into your face and that of your parents?<< I did not see any such women. Now aside from my disappointment, I think this is the kind of hotel I will take my father and mother to. By the way, the Guru Granth Sahib is not the living Guru or pita/mata. That is the SatGuru. Also to make another point, since when did discussing to allow Guru Granth Sahib to this hotel, or to this caliber anyhow, translate to eventually allowing it to a house of ill repute, with naked women, and the bathroom? >>Surely one would not conduct a wedding in a toilet would they?<< Thank you for making that connection. It's wonderful to discuss with people who will make such tangential associations and with such reason! No, it really is. Now I did say I prefer the Guru Granth Sahibji stay at the Gurdwara because it's more of an egalitarian approach. For me, the Sikh marriage ceremony is simple, without the lavish overtones and surroundings. Besides, that's what the receptions are for. But I don't understand the particulars. It's claimed that the local Gurdwara is TOO SMALL. I don't understand how small. I don't understand how big the wedding party is and why can't they just accommodate them at the reception, or if there's one. There are so many details I do not know, so I will reluctantly give them the benefit of the doubt. This is an Exception we are talking about and not the norm. But as for those who think the alcohol nearby will drown the Bani rather than the Bani will drown out all the intoxicants, why not make the bars inactive? Buy out the bars for half the day and close them. For those who are still concerned about the proximity, transplant the liquor some odd feet away. I'm still churning this matter inside my head. Any reasonable discussions are welcome to shed light on this topic. Thank you. Narinder Singh NY [/b][/font] [font=Century Gothic][/font] [b]INPUT from ALL is needed.[/b] [b]Thanx[/b] [b]Peace & Love[/b] [b]Tejwant.[/b] [font=Century Gothic][b][font=Verdana][/font] [/b][/font][b] [/b] [/QUOTE]
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Guruji To Be Abused AGAIN!
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