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Guru Nanak Dev Ji Being Asked: Where It All Started, How Acquired Wisdom, Which Master You Disciple

Ambarsaria

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Here the series of questions deal with as to what is the root of all and what teacher so teaches the wisdom. The whole direction being that such endeavors normally related to finding salvation, the union or merging with the eternal.

More specifically, Guru jis being asked where it all began? How to recognize pertinent wisdom and find who so teaches? Recognizing within questioning the statement that it is the wisdom wherein lies salvation across treacherous worldly ocean.

Let us review the following,

Sidhas/Yogis ask:
ਕਵਣ ਮੂਲੁ ਕਵਣ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਲਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਕਵਣੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਤੂ ਚੇਲਾ
Kavaṇ mūl kavaṇ maṯ velā. Ŧerā kavaṇ gurū jis kā ṯū cẖelā.
What is the root? What times of study? Who is your esteemed teacher, who so are you a disciple of?
ਕਵਣ ਕਥਾ ਲੇ ਰਹਹੁ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਬੋਲੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਬਾਲੇ
Kavaṇ kathā le rahhu nirāle. Bolai Nānak suṇhu ṯum bāle.
What is the story that you stay unaffected aloof? Listen you child, Nanak speak up.
ਏਸੁ ਕਥਾ ਕਾ ਦੇਇ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਭਵਜਲੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਲੰਘਾਵਣਹਾਰੁ ੪੩॥
Ės kathā kā ḏe▫e bīcẖār. Bẖavjal sabaḏ langẖāvaṇhār. ||43||
Give us a description of such a story. The words that will so carry across the treacherous ocean!
Guru Ji’s answers:
ਪਵਨ ਅਰੰਭੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਤਿ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਧੁਨਿ ਚੇਲਾ
Pavan arambẖ saṯgur maṯ velā. Sabaḏ gurū suraṯ ḏẖun cẖelā.
The breath so the beginning, time for understanding the eternal creator. The creator’s wisdom is the teacher, the consciousness like a focused disciple in unison.
ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਲੇ ਰਹਉ ਨਿਰਾਲਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਪਾਲਾ
Akath kathā le raha▫o nirālā. Nānak jug jug gur gopālā.
Saying the unspeakable so remain the unattached untainted. Nanak through all ages the creator such a purveyor.
ਏਕੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਥਾ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਅਗਨਿ ਨਿਵਾਰੀ ੪੪॥
Ėk sabaḏ jiṯ kathā vīcẖārī. Gurmukẖ ha▫umai agan nivārī. ||44||
Through one description the story contemplated. One so in tune with creator’s being quenches the fire of egotism.
Guru ji describe the wind, the reflective of breath as the start of all. The true wisdom of the creator that Guru ji is a follower of. Described while being indescribable, the creator so persisting through the ages. It is so recognizing that ego dissipates.

A state of recognizing awe, learning the wisdom, and all this in ego-less humility.

Have we embedded in every moment-to-moment of our life what Guru ji teach us here!

What you think?

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Please see the appropriate complete Shabad here,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sidh-gosht/38860-si-gosht-sabad-33-48-73-a.html
 
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BhagatSingh

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Ambarsaria ji,
Your translation here is a bit hard to grasp. I think you may be complicating the English wording a bit.

The Siddhas:
1. What gives rise to a superior intellect?
2. and when does that happen?
3. Who is your Guru?
4. Who's teaching do you follow to remain dettached?

Tells us boy, tell us how the word can get us across the terrifying ocean?

Nanak:
1. It begins with the breath (utterance of the word).
2. One obtains a superior intellect when one meets with the satguru.
3. I focus deeply on the sound of the word, this is my guru and I am it's disciple. (and through it, I meet with the satguru)
4. There, I hear the unspoken teaching and remain dettached.

He further says, in every age my Guru is Gopal, the Herder. By meditating on the unspoken teaching of one word, a Guru-oriented individual can put out his sense of self ie cross the terrifying ocean.

Here's a related shabad:

ਧੁਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਕਥ ਕਹਾਨੀ ॥੩॥
By meditating on the sound, the Guru-oriented individual comes to know the unspoken teaching. ||3|| - page 879
 

Luckysingh

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With both of those translations, the message becomes more crystal.

It is important here to remember,that the sadhus are still poking at the young(boy) Nanakji. They demand to know what katha,tale or story his word of shabad tells.
Who is the guiding master, the man behind this young man!
They probably think it's the work of someone elder and wiser that may be instructing this young Nanak.

The answer to top it all is that -
Nanak speaks the unspoken speech and he hears and receives the unspoken teaching.

The spoken speech is the only speech we may be aware of since we learn with a beginning, middle and end with all the tales and wisdom that elders or the wise may teach us.
What is interesting is that this knowledge that Nanakji has, just comes to him to his conscious and he trusts it very well. He just knows without any tale or katha to back it up.

Again,we talked in another thread about how the consciousness is more aware than we actually realise. We don't know how to listen to it because we only know what our brain tells us.

Another way to look at this is we have all these experts that tell us what our dreams can mean, and they are usually signs of underlying worries, issues etc..that we may come across in the day but to which the brain doesn't give much thought.
Again, it's our 'consciousness' that is telling us and promoting these dreams as it actually knows more than us.
Just give it a little thought next time,and you will see what I mean.

I know Ambarsariji is not a huge fan of meditation etc.. BUT this is where it seems to make more positive sense to me lately since the scientific,biological and spiritual concepts seem to wind together with consciousness, awareness and realisation along with brain function.
OR maybe it's just my angle of perception. which may get proven wrong by myself in later time !
I will just have to wait and see and then I can let you know.
We have all believed certain concepts in the past and later come to realise that they were a bit or two wrong!!
 

Ambarsaria

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Luckysingh veer ji thanks for your post. One rebuttal about your observation.
I know Ambarsariji is not a huge fan of meditation etc.. BUT this is where it seems to make more positive sense to me lately since the scientific,biological and spiritual concepts seem to wind together with consciousness, awareness and realisation along with brain function.
OR maybe it's just my angle of perception. which may get proven wrong by myself in later time !
I will just have to wait and see and then I can let you know.
We have all believed certain concepts in the past and later come to realise that they were a bit or two wrong!!
Luckysingh ji I have no issues about meditation nor am I an expert about meditation. I had times of reflective stances, etc. I see creator in all and everywhere fully awake and I never see myself separate from such at any instance. Hence I have no strong urges, desires, or wishes about merging or knowing exactly what or who creator is outside of all creation.

Of course meditation can be quite useful in lot of instances but I don't see its need, at least for me to know or find creator. Unless I am in constant meditative or reflective state without knowing. It matters not to me vis-a-vis creator.

Thank you and Bhagat Singh ji for interacting with the post.


I wish Sidh Gohst becomes more popular as it is almost close to current reporting of an interview of Guru ji. Guru ji checked the questions and vetted his answers to these and so recorded in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Marvelous insights.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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SIDH GHOST is a complete and perfect vision of the basic concept of THE WORD GuROO
of Gurbanee.

1-There is a specific topic for discussions in the very tuk of Raha-u
2-This is followed with conversation in a way which is very positive and
3-At the end there is Conclusion of the subject in discussion.

One learns a lot thru this Banee about how conversation should take place
without offending any party involved in the discussions.

These are some of my personal views about SIDH GOST Banee.

Prakash.S.Bagga
 
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BhagatSingh

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Yes Prakash ji,
I was thinking about your posts when Guru Nanak says that "the deep focus on the sound of the word is my Gur". He is referring to connecting with the Antaryami. The Gur, teacher is inside his body - the spiritual school, and he is the student of this school.

Lucky Singh ji,
They probably think it's the work of someone elder and wiser that may be instructing this young Nanak.
One thing to remember here is that Guru Nanak here is speaking to enlightened people here, Siddhas, the spiritual masters. They have been meditating for a long time and know exactly what Guru Nanak is talking about. In a room full of elderly masters with some few young faces, we see Nanak one of those young ones. And the masters, who usually don't have visitors have been approached by Nanak. In the beginning, the way Nanak greets them gets their attention arouses their interest. So they are now curious and they want to hear what he has to say. If you read their questions carefully, you can see their wisdom. Only those who are enlightened themselves can ask such questions.

I would ignore the English translation, it makes it appear to be something else. They start asking him about his spiritual methods and philosophy. Guru Nanak sincerely says "you already know all the answers, what answer can I give you?" ਹਮ ਸਚੁ ਕਹਿਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਤੁਮ ਤੋ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਰ ਹੋ ਤੁਮਕੋ (ਬੈਸਣੁ) ਉਤ੍ਰ ਕਯਾ ਦੀਜੀਏ॥੪॥ ਪੁਨ: ਚਰਪਟ ਨੇ ਕਹਾ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਆਪ ਕੀ ਰਸਨਾਂ ਦੁਆਰਾ ਕਛੁ ਸੁਨਾ ਚਾਹਤਾ ਹੂੰ ਤਿਸੁ ਪਰ ਕਹਿਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥

At no point do they argue a different point. (When we disagree with someone, then we argue.) They all agree with Nanak.

They are enjoying it like a satsang, not an investigation or something like that.
 

BhagatSingh

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Ambarsaria ji,
I am talking about this mistranslation. I think you translation is good overall.
ਆਪੇ ਆਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਸਮਝੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਿਆ ਉਤਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ
आपे आखै आपे समझै तिसु किआ उतरु दीजै ॥
Āpe ākẖai āpe samjẖai ṯis ki▫ā uṯar ḏījai.
What answer can I give to someone, who claims to understand himself?
ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਪਾਰਗਰਾਮੀ ਤੁਝੁ ਕਿਆ ਬੈਸਣੁ ਦੀਜੈ ॥੪॥
साचु कहहु तुम पारगरामी तुझु किआ बैसणु दीजै ॥४॥
Sācẖ kahhu ṯum pārgarāmī ṯujẖ ki▫ā baisaṇ ḏījai. ||4||
I speak the Truth; if you have already crossed over, how can I argue with you?" ||4||
 

Ambarsaria

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Bhagat Singh ji thanks. I was shaking in my pyjamas when you said ignore English translation and I said oh my God/creator what did I do so wrong icecreammunda. It must be my ego to associate English translation to myself versus the much respected and incredible contribution of Dr. Sant Singh ji Khalsa, irrespective of one's differences here and there or differing understanding.

I added my translation/understanding after Sant Singh Khalsa ji's translation in the following,
Ambarsaria ji,
I am talking about this mistranslation. I think you translation is good overall.
ਆਪੇ ਆਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਸਮਝੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਿਆ ਉਤਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ
आपे आखै आपे समझै तिसु किआ उतरु दीजै ॥
Āpe ākẖai āpe samjẖai ṯis ki▫ā uṯar ḏījai.
What answer can I give to someone, who claims to understand himself?
One who says and also understands, what to give answer to one such. [/FONT]
ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਪਾਰਗਰਾਮੀ ਤੁਝੁ ਕਿਆ ਬੈਸਣੁ ਦੀਜੈ ॥੪॥
साचु कहहु तुम पारगरामी तुझु किआ बैसणु दीजै ॥४॥
Sācẖ kahhu ṯum pārgarāmī ṯujẖ ki▫ā baisaṇ ḏījai. ||4||
I speak the Truth; if you have already crossed over, how can I argue with you?"
||4||
I so say the truth when you do know that you have already traversed to the other side.[/FONT]

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sidh-gosht/38738-si-gosht-sabad-1-16-73-a.html
Brother I do want to hear specific errors as I want to learn and be better too.

Thanks.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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BhagatSingh

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Haha! ok glad to have that cleared up. I think your work is great! Inspired by it, I started mine on Kabir bani.
My only real criticism right now is that you should try and simplify the English. I know it can be hard with translations but try.
E.g.
One who says and also understands, what to give answer to one such. [/FONT]
I so say the truth when you do know that you have already traversed to the other side.
[/FONT]

You could instead say:
One who says and understands, what answer can be given to such.
I say honestly that you have already traversed to the other side, what answer can I give you?

I am no language master, I can already see improvements for my own English lol. But try and simplify.

Anyhow, once again, good work Ambarsaria ji!
 

Luckysingh

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Bhagatji,
Thanks for reminding me that these sidhas shouldn't be underestimated and that they are ALREADY enlightened.
It is real easy to forget when you get into the conversation like I did.
Having some background and awareness of exactly what siddhas are about, is obviously very useful in terms of points we have to remember when absorbing this conversation.

Having some useful background on any appearances or mentions in gurbani is always useful and valuable.

Thanks to both of your efforts, this is some great work!!
 

Luckysingh

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Luckysingh veer ji thanks for your post. One rebuttal about your observation.Luckysingh ji I have no issues about meditation nor am I an expert about meditation. I had times of reflective stances, etc. I see creator in all and everywhere fully awake and I never see myself separate from such at any instance. Hence I have no strong urges, desires, or wishes about merging or knowing exactly what or who creator is outside of all creation.

Of course meditation can be quite useful in lot of instances but I don't see its need, at least for me to know or find creator. Unless I am in constant meditative or reflective state without knowing. It matters not to me vis-a-vis creator.


Sat Sri Akal.
That is wonderful and explained well.

I have always believed that not everyone may have the need for meditation, but it helps people like me to get the connection.
From what you describe, It seems that you are quite lucky to feel this way in terms of connection.

I can also sense that you are probably not the sort to always be reading the bani in ''Baikri bani'' or ''vachak'' mode. -These terms refer to ones that read or recite paath or gurbani with use of the tongue and also having the thoughts in mind. This paath can normally be clearly heard by others nearby.
Then there is ''Pasanti bani'', which is reciting the paath or reading purely in hirda whilst reading silently without tongue uttering.

The latter is usually more connected and also in a 'manas' mode whilst doing this. This is what we should all try and aim for, but it's not always easy.
I believe that you probably fall into this category and can be in that mode without too much effort and able to maintain it.
I could be wrong, but this is the impression I sense.

It is the Guru's blessing to have this ease.


Waheguru
 

BhagatSingh

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Lucky Singh ji,
I can also sense that you are probably not the sort to always be reading the bani in ''Baikri bani'' or ''vachak'' mode.
I didn't quite understand what the Baikri, Vachak and Manas mode of recitation are exactly. Please explain.

So I recently began a reading of Manu Smriti because of the criticisms levied against it for describing the caste system. I came across this today, which reminded me of what you said above.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]85. An offering, consisting of muttered prayers, is ten times more efficacious than a sacrifice performed according to the rules (of the Veda); a (prayer) which is inaudible (to others) surpasses it a hundred times, and the mental (recitation of sacred texts) a thousand times. - Chapter 2[/FONT]
http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/extra/bl-lawsofmanu2.htm

This is new to me: the idea that prayers said in different ways hold different value. What do you think?
 

Luckysingh

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These terms were in my notes that I started compiling some time ago.
I'm sure these references were from Gyani Thakur Singh ji- (Patiale) katha of Japji sahib.

Here is what I have.

Jap is of three types:

1. Vachak- Recitten with tongue and can be heard by others.

2: Upas: Recitten with tongue also but less audible.

3. Manas- Meditation of Vahiguroo with mind..meditation through thought process.

First stage of gursikh is Vachak. Gyani Thakur ji gave example of how sant baba Sundar singh ji maharaj Bhindranwale used to do japji sahib first in one hour, then do second japji sahib in half an hour, then do third japji sahib in 15 minuites, then do fourth japji sahib in 10 minutes, then fifth time do japji sahib in 5 minutes.

In first stage, audible/dhuni gursikhs gets when reciting Vahiguroo loudly, gursikhs use that dhuni(tune) in their further stages and concentrate on that dhuni(tone).



Jap(meditation) is also done by:

1. Baikari Bani- When one recites naam with javan(tongue), hout(lips), khaieyal(thoughts) that is called Baikari Bani.

2. Madhma Bani- When one recites naam in Kant(throat) without moving lips...just with the thoughts is called Madhma Bani.

3. Pasanti Bani- When one recites naam in hirda(heart).

4. Para Bani- When one recites naam in Nabhi(Navel) without moving tongue and with the thoughts. In this stage vahiguroo naam gets infused in rom rom of the body. Meditation goes in automatic mode. There is no need for concentration.

Gurmukh Rom Rom Har Dhavaie ||

After 4th stage, one gets to very high stage. Where one can hear(jap-resonance,dhuni) with their surati in pretty much everything in this creation ie- walls, birds, leafs, animals, human being, even from realms (bhramands).

Dharat Patal Akash Hai Meri Jindaeriye
Sab Har Har Naam Dhavaiya Ram ||

It's amazing how jap(meditations) which starts from tongue of this beings, travels through all the stages within the body and outside the body ie- outside nature, realms. After going through all the stages. This being becomes bhramgyani and goes turiya avastha.

Gyani ji further added- Siri Guru Amar Das Ji son.. used to meditate on madma
bani(on throat/kant chakar) most of the time.

I'm certain that this katha which is on CD and tape was discussed and translated on BC sikhs. com
If it was not from there, then I will try and located where the notes were from.

I wouldn't say that the prayers hold different values in the way they are said.
I think that you progress through the different stages starting at recitation out loud with tongue.
 
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BhagatSingh

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Aside from Manas I could not find these words in the srigranth.org dictionary. Don't know what to make of these but interesting stuff nonetheless.
 

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