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Guru Nanak Dev (10 Jots) Was Nirankar Himself In Sargun (Human Form)

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Guru Nanak Dev (10 Jots) Was Nirankar Himself In Sargun (Human Form)

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I would like to hear the views of sangat on the following post made by my friend in another forum.






Thanks

Guru Nanak Dev (10 jots) was Nirankar himself in Sargun(Human form) saroop wrote gurbani which is divine revelation -

Vaho Vaho Bani Nirankar hai ||

It's important to study both sargun(Human Form of God) and nirgun(Non-existent form of God) ascept clearly. They are both interelated with each other. You can't separate them.

It's like this- God wanted to see his face in the mirror. He transform itself into roop of Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji as Guru Avtar arrival was predicted in hindu vedas and rishi balmik texts.

There are six avtars are known in Indian anceint philosphy:


the six types of avtars are as follows;

1. Ansa Avtar- his is the avtar taken by rightious kings such as Raja Janak

2. Aveshya Avtar - this is avtars with spiritual powers

3. Kala Avtar - this is avtars with extrodinary powers usually 14 or 16 powers

4. Nit Avtar - This is the Avtar taken by Sants and Mahatmas.

5. Namit Avtar - This is where God comes to earth for a short time and does not take birth then dissappears following what work needed to be done. Examples of this are Narsingh and the future avtar of Kalki

6. Pooran Avtar - This is the most powerful Avtar of God before guru Nanak Dev Ji. It was a form which contained almost all powers. Examples of this are Ram and Krishan

Guru Avtar- That is Guru Sahib(Jagat Guru) not only for Sikh.remember Guru Nanak Dev Ji was for all humanity... There will never be a greater avtar that will take place. Guru Avtar is great of all 6 of them...

Also like to add Guru Avatar also has huge padaam mark on their feet like how 10 jots guru nanak dev nirankar. They were Nirankar themselves with infinite powers.

Please listen to the first part of the Japji Sahib Katha by Giani Thakur Singh Ji on Gurmatveechar.com where this is all explained and also the divans by Sant Baba Jagjeet Singh Ji Harkhowalae which are in my folder on the gurseva hub
 

drkhalsa

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Dear Khalsa ji

This above classification may b eright or wrong or what ever but personally such classification irritate me lot as they do not serve any purpose for me
Any way I would like to hear comments of other people about this

This system of classification is itself nonesense and we keep on doing it even for god himself
anyway
AKAL Purakh only nows the best of it
 

TeraRoop11

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Guru Fateh all...............
Yeah I agree with drkhalsa Ji..............I mean, this classification/categorization may be right or wrong, only God knows, but does it really matter? God is One............Guru and and God are one..............All 10 Gurus are one jot..............SGGS Ji is last roop of this jot..............that's all you need to know, in my opinion..................
 
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Another point that was raised for which i would like to have some references in history books... somebody said...

Additionally, a fair amount of academic scholarship in Sikh studies suggests that Mool Mantar was an adaptation of Kabir's work. When I get some free time, I will post the references.
 

BabbarSher

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Lets try and analyse the post section wise.

Reference to the Guru's is made in Guru Granth Sahib, which may lead a lot to the conclusions that our friend below has given. However Guru Granth Sahib clearly says that God is Ajooni, and he does not come into this world from the womb.

However the Guru's were so intune with the Hukam and God, that there was no difference in both of them. The river just merged into the sea. They polished themselves so much that they had all the qualities of God.


""Guru Nanak Dev Ji as Guru Avtar arrival was predicted in hindu vedas and rishi balmik texts""

Vedas, Smritis etc. have been rejected by the Gurus themselves. Perhaps the author is unware of this. It is a wonder then that they perdicted that there would be Guru Nank, but failed to perdict that he would reject the teachings of the Vedas.

I hope that the readers are able to see through this ....concept, which seems to have been the brainchild of some people pertaining to a ceratin philosophy.

Guru Nanak's supposed prediction s being used by these gentlemen to cerify their own philosophy and teachings of the vedas.

Avtarvad has been totally rejected by the Gurus, so I fail to see, how Gurus could themselves be classified as Avataars.

The stories about Padam mark are totally invalidated. It is another story concoted by 'Babas'

Akal Sahai
 

BabbarSher

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>>>>Additionally, a fair amount of academic scholarship in Sikh studies suggests that Mool Mantar was an adaptation of Kabir's work. When I get some free time, I will post the references<<<<


The esteemed author should either make the complete post with reference when he has some 'free time', or he should desist from making such remarks and claims. Let him come out with references and then we can start a discussion.

:)

Akal Sahai
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki Fateh.

Well said Babar Sher Jio. Gurmatt has no place for such classifications....this is merely Churning WATER.

Gurbani urges us to use our time to CHURN...the NAAM...that is the only useful activity.

All these "talk" of Avtaars etc is used and actively propogated by the Sant/Babay Group....just like the Mafia always promote a "Godfather" ( and by..mutual accpetance therefore it logically follows that there have to be smaller 'godfathers'...thse sant/baaby are always in the business of promoting HUMAN DEH...as Guru, Sant, Sadhu, Satguru, Teacher, etc etc...so that THEIR OWN SELF then has a chance of being "worshipped"..and gain status.
IF they just PROMOTE the SOLE SHABAD GURU and WAHEGURU....then there is NO way their "own human body" will be wroshipped/fed/clothed.gvien Mercedes Benzes...etc by the "devotees"...no chance for big deras, woemn sewaks waiting hand and foot on these holies...

The Chakarvie Theory most aptly explains this. At first the BRAHMIN was just "content" to Promote the STONE IDOL ( which was solely in HIS COMMAND and CARE) as one that Needs to be FED, Clothed etc witht eh BEST Foods/Clothes/Money...and so the Devotees began to chhrra the BEST FOODS, CLOTHES, etc for the IDOLS..which by PROXY the Brahmin caretaker appropriated for himself... Cow Daan, Milk Daan, Barfi Daan...made the Brahmin Fat and Prosperous...at every "ceremony" the All Impoertant Brahmin Prohit was made absolutley NECESSARY...NO "MUKTEE" without the Brahmin..

Then as the Years went by and the Brahmin had taken ROOTS so deep no one would Object....he began very cleverly to COvert the Beautiful Girls and wives of others....SO the Stone IDOLS began to "need" Dev Dassis...darshabn Dassis, Kanya Daan became very IMPORTANT....when the Brahmin wanted someones LAND..BHOOMI DAAN arrived, when He wanted the KING's KINGDOM..RAAJ DAAN came into Vogue... Are you aware that at a certian big Mandir in Nort India there is a HUGE WELL with a HUGE SAW...the Crafty Brahmin had Promoted the view that any KING/RICH MAN etc whgo wanted SALVATION should DAAN away everything he owned to the BRAHMINS..and get his HEAD CUT OFF by the Huge saw.....and the body was dumped intot he Well of SALVATION... Needless to say NOT a Single Brahmin ever Sought such "Salvation"...this RAASTAA was ONLY for the Rich and Famous...

IF you look throught eh Origins of MOST SANT/BABA you will find that he comes from a background that has no way of getting a wife and has no land etc..IN PUNJAB only a son of a farmer that has land gets married...so off these go to some dera to look for a sant baba and learn the ropes.... abit of Kachii dhaarna two liners like "uchha dar babah nanak daa...ucha dar babaeh naank daa..boloh sangato..., a bit of Tall tale magic stories going under the name of "history"...and they are set for life . These SANT/BABAY are the MODERN BRAHMINS of old disguised in Sikhi Form.

Gurbani says Rottian karen pooreh taal....That about SUMS up these Jyots stuff. These modern brahmins in sikh disguise are just drumming up support..so that their own HUMAN BODIES can taste the "forbidden fruits"..

Our One and Only GURU is SHABAD GURU JYOT direct from WAHEGURU/SACH KHAAND...Guru nanak ji brought it for us..Guru Gobind Singh ji confirmed it. Waheguru Jyot is spread through out the Universe. Shabad GURU surat Dhun Chela said GURU NANAK. Period.

Jarnail Singh
 
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I wonder if all the people who have been taught the theory of 'Shabad Guru' ever read the Gurbani in the context in which it was originally written?

Can these people explain to me who the Sikhs, of ALL the Gurus before, and during Guru Gobind Singhji's time believed to be their Guru?

To narrow this discussion down let's focus on Guru Arjun Devji. Who was 'Guru' during His time on Earth. Was it Guru Arjun Devji, or was it the 'eternal Shabad Guru'? If only the Shabad is/was Guru, then what status did (Guru) Arjun Devji hold? Was even He, only a Baba? When He sang praises of His Guru I do believe He was praising Guru Ramdassji, or can someone show me a Shabad from Aadh Guru Granth Sahib that Guru Arjun Devji wrote, praising His 'Shabad Guru'.
I have always been taught that a True Guru is a teacher who, being at one with the Cosmic Energy that is Akaal, then shares that Energy with His Sikhs. Hence why Guru Nanak Devji ends the Mool Manthr with the words: Gur Parsad. To do that the entity that is Guru must be proactive. All of our True Gurus were proactive. A Guru is one who walks amongst mankind to deliver His message through the power of His 'Sabad'. ie. spoken Word. Hence the term within Gurbani: GUR KA SABAD. Here we have two entities: The GURU and His SABAD. When He speaks, His Words have the power to change peoples' Karam. When Guru Nanak Devji spoke, great demon-like tyrants became His servants.

GurSabad cannot exist without the Guru. For the Guru Granth Sahib to come into existance Human Gurus had to be around. They were there before Guru Nanak Devji. Kabirji's Guru was Ramanandji. Or was He just a 'Baba' as well?

Dhana Jat's Guru was the Brahmin who threw Him a stone to worship, from whence Dhana had Darshan of God.

Modern day understanding of the word 'Guru' has taken on a very different hue to the one originally used within the Aadh Guru Granth and Dasam Guru Granth Sahibs.

If people want to believe in just 'Shabad' as Guru, then they have a right to do so. But they should desist from trying to distort the Gurbani to further their belief and vilify others who seek salvation in their own way.

Every person has his/her own faith in something or someone. Who knows how far down the road to spiritual enlightenment each person is.

In the old days people on the road to spirituality sought out Sadhs and Sants to serve. Only by seeking enlightened Souls and coming into their congregation can we start to learn. This is what Gurbani written down in the Aadh and Dasam Guru Granth Sahibs teaches us. To distort this teaching to mean anything else is a sin.

Begging Forgiveness

Sat-Sri- Akaal
 

simpy

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Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,




Guru is who takes one from darkness into light. In Spiritual sense it can be presented this way- Guru gives the disciples the key to the tenth gate/ Guru guides the disciples to the path of Sehaj Awastha/ Guru gives instructions to the disciples how they can put their mind into a state on non-duality/……

And this happens only by following truthfully and faithfully what Guru teaches us, the disciples. Does not matter what kind of a Body Guru is in- Body made of five elements or a Body made of paper- We have Guru Ji’s teachings written in Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So What???
One cannot limit a Guru into a form, because A TRUE GURU is LIMITLESS. AND BANI IS SHABAD GURU.

Our Guru Sahibaan has done this parupkaar on us so that we do not have to search for a True Guru out of thousands(most of them FAKE BABAS)-LIKE IT HAPPENED WHEN IT WAS TIME TO DISCOVER the Ninth Master- DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU TEGH BAHADUR JI PAATSHAH.
How many out there have the caliber of Respected Makhan Shah Lubana Ji to discover a true Guru.


Guru Sahib Da Hukam Hai- Guru Di Agyaa Da Paalan Karna-And WE Sikhs Are Doing That, respectfully with unshakable faith.


gwivAw suixAw iqn kw hir Qwie pwvY ijn siqgur kI AwigAw siq siq kir mwnI ]

bwxI gurU gurU hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMimRqu swry ]
guru bwxI khY syvku jnu mwnY prqiK gurU insqwry ]

So Guru Sahib has given us assurance of all the kind- we do believe every word our Guru Ji has blessed us with.

guru myrY sMig sdw hY nwly ]
ismir ismir iqsu sdw sm@wly ]

AND NOW me neech MAKE A VERY HUMBLE REQUEST TO MY SIKH BROTHERS ANS SISTERS WHO ARE THE MEMBERS OR VISITORS ON THIS FORUM- PLEASE LEARN GURMUKHI, TEACH YOUR KIDS, FRIENDS AND FAMILY AS WELL-SO THAT THEY CAN READ DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI THEMSELVES AND LEARN TO LIVE A GOOD WAY OF LIFE-IT IS OK TO RECOGNIZE ENGLISH AS IT IS THE LANGUAGE SPOKEN ALLOVER THE WORLD, WE NEED TO KNOW THIS FLUENTLY AS WELL, BUT GURMUKHI IS MORE IMPORTANT AS GURU DA BACHAN IS WRITTEN IN THIS- OUR DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU SAHIBAAN MADE SO MANY SACRIFICES TO GIVE US THIS TREASURE-PLEASE RESPECT THEIR SACRIFICE.



forgive me please
 
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Forgive me Surinder Kaurji, but if, according to you, Guru is the Shabad, how do you consolidate the phrase that occurs time and time again in Aadh Guru Granth Sahib:

GUR KA SABAD?

You are merging Guru into Shabad. However in ALL of the Shabads written in the both Guru Granth Sahibs the Guru and His Shabad exist as seperate entities.
 

simpy

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Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,

Respected Veer Sikh Naam Dhari Ji,
endless thanks to you

we respect our religion as well as others. and it does not qualify others to disrespect our faith.

a humble request has been made to you by drkhajsa ji in another thread "if you feel like enlightening others with your way of spirtuality we can start one exclusive thread to disscuss", please follow it.


forgive me please






forgive me please
 

simpy

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Then why use the term 'fake Babas'?

Begging forgiveness.
Respected Sikh Naam Dhari Ji,

endless thanks to you.

you said so much against the Sikh Faith, and i did not say any thing about your Guru, had i said anything against yours?

you misinterpreted Gurbani which is a priceless gem to us, and now you are shamelessly accusing me for no reason. Please i am asking for forgiveness even for not disrespecting your faith.


my words were-Our Guru Sahibaan has done this parupkaar on us so that we do not have to search for a True Guru out of thousands(most of them FAKE BABAS)-LIKE IT HAPPENED WHEN IT WAS TIME TO DISCOVER the Ninth Master- DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU TEGH BAHADUR JI PAATSHAH.


and what is wrong in it, Fake is a fake. i am not saying your Guru is fake, am i????

and nobody in their right mind support fake babas.



forgive me please.
 
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Dear Sister Surinder Kaurji

I do beg forgiveness from you for having hurt your sentiments. It was not my intention to hurt anyones feelings.

However, I do resent the fact that you view my faith and yours as different. I am not attacking Sikhi. I believe Guru Nanak Devji to be Sargun form of God. We are all children of that same Guru.

I do not feel that I am misinterpreting Gurbani, because I have no wisdom to interpret it. I am merely repeating to you how Satguruji explains Gurbani to us. My intention was not to attack your faith, merely to contribute to what I personally feel is a very important subject in Sikhism.

How we perceive our Satguru(s) is essential to our understanding of their message. But if, however, you are offended by my comments and consider them to be non-Sikh I shall refrain from discussing with you.

Again I apologise for having offended you, I did misunderstand your comments.
 

simpy

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Dear Sister Surinder Kaurji

I do beg forgiveness from you for having hurt your sentiments. It was not my intention to hurt anyones feelings.

However, I do resent the fact that you view my faith and yours as different. I am not attacking Sikhi. I believe Guru Nanak Devji to be Sargun form of God. We are all children of that same Guru.

I do not feel that I am misinterpreting Gurbani, because I have no wisdom to interpret it. I am merely repeating to you how Satguruji explains Gurbani to us. My intention was not to attack your faith, merely to contribute to what I personally feel is a very important subject in Sikhism.

How we perceive our Satguru(s) is essential to our understanding of their message. But if, however, you are offended by my comments and consider them to be non-Sikh I shall refrain from discussing with you.

Again I apologise for having offended you, I did misunderstand your comments.

Respected Sikh Naamdhari Ji,

endless thanks to you for being with us.


you are the one who is offended. You disrespected Sikh Faith in plain and clear words...

Sikh Naamdhari said:
I wonder if all the people who have been taught the theory of 'Shabad Guru' ever read the Gurbani in the context in which it was originally written?

Can these people explain to me who the Sikhs, of ALL the Gurus before, and during Guru Gobind Singhji's time believed to be their Guru?

To narrow this discussion down let's focus on Guru Arjun Devji. Who was 'Guru' during His time on Earth. Was it Guru Arjun Devji, or was it the 'eternal Shabad Guru'? If only the Shabad is/was Guru, then what status did (Guru) Arjun Devji hold? Was even He, only a Baba? When He sang praises of His Guru I do believe He was praising Guru Ramdassji, or can someone show me a Shabad from Aadh Guru Granth Sahib that Guru Arjun Devji wrote, praising His 'Shabad Guru'.
I have always been taught that a True Guru is a teacher who, being at one with the Cosmic Energy that is Akaal, then shares that Energy with His Sikhs. Hence why Guru Nanak Devji ends the Mool Manthr with the words: Gur Parsad. To do that the entity that is Guru must be proactive. All of our True Gurus were proactive. A Guru is one who walks amongst mankind to deliver His message through the power of His 'Sabad'. ie. spoken Word. Hence the term within Gurbani: GUR KA SABAD. Here we have two entities: The GURU and His SABAD. When He speaks, His Words have the power to change peoples' Karam. When Guru Nanak Devji spoke, great demon-like tyrants became His servants.

GurSabad cannot exist without the Guru. For the Guru Granth Sahib to come into existance Human Gurus had to be around. They were there before Guru Nanak Devji. Kabirji's Guru was Ramanandji. Or was He just a 'Baba' as well?
Sikh Naamdhari said:
Forgive me Surinder Kaurji, but if, according to you, Guru is the Shabad, how do you consolidate the phrase that occurs time and time again in Aadh Guru Granth Sahib:

GUR KA SABAD?

You are merging Guru into Shabad. However in ALL of the Shabads written in the both Guru Granth Sahibs the Guru and His Shabad exist as seperate entities.
then you disrespected Sikh Faith once again under the thread-'Was Guru Nanak God' and clearly misinterpreted Gurbani-
Sikh Naamdhari said:
With all due respect, you are merely repeating the words I hear all the time from champions of the Shabad Guru fraternity. I have quoted a Shabad from the Gurbani, which this school of thought merely ignores, just as you have. Of course a physical body cannot enter into the mind. But it takes a PERSON to be enlightened, who then enlightens others. Soul or Jyot are one and the same. It exists only in God's creatures. Gurbani tells us if we desire to meet with our Lord, then we need to take the guidance of one whose Soul is attached to the Lord as One. How to distinguish such a Mahapursh is also described in the Gurbani.

If we just read Gurbani and try to decipher it with our own 'Budh' we run the risk of imposing 'Manmath' in our understanding. 'Gurmath' is not that which is taught by institutions. It is 'math' which is taught by a Human whose Soul has merged with the Akaal and in whose Shabad there is the power to take us to salvation.

Reading of any Scriptures alone will not get us there.

Kabirji says in Raag Dhanasari:
Kia pariae, kia guniae, kia Ved Purana sunyae, ( Ved and Purans were the Gurbani of the time)
Parae sunae kia hoi, jou Sahaj na milio soi,
Andhiarae deepak chahiyae, ik bast agochar lahiyae...

Kabirji was talking about a living Guru, not a hypothetical Shabad.
The 'Bast' He is talking about is the 'Naam' or 'Gurshabad' which can only be given by a Satgur whose Soul has merged.

i agree to disagree, that is why i have not disrespected you or your faith even once. And i will never do so, as i do not need to. I live with contentment and let others live as well.

I AM ONLY DEFENDING MY FAITH. IT IS MY DUTY. YOU HAVE AN OBJECTION ON THAT TOO, YOUR PROBLEM, SIR/MADAM.


once again endless thanks to you for being with us.


And a humble request once again is made with folded hands-Please do not disrespect Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and please do not misinterpret Gurbani.



forgive me please
 

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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

NAnak Ji called Him insect (keeray), fish (meen), rain bird (chAtrik), slave (daas) of Hari, false (jhoothay) in eyes of all, not good (na ham changay), swan (hans), offender (apraaDhee), foolish (ham moorakh), stone (pAthar), idiot (mugaDh), without virtue (nirgunee), without honor (nimAnaa), iron (loh), child (bArak), sleeping (ham sotay), beggar (bhikhAree), illitrate (parhai nahee ham), dust (Dhoor), mean (neech), meek (deen), utensil of flesh (mAsai kay bhANday), sinner (pApee), dog (dog) and many more.

May I ask if some have found God in all these while realizing NAnak God?


Balbir Singh
 

simpy

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Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear all!

NAnak Ji called Him insect (keeray), fish (meen), rain bird (chAtrik), slave (daas) of Hari, false (jhoothay) in eyes of all, not good (na ham changay), swan (hans), offender (apraaDhee), foolish (ham moorakh), stone (pAthar), idiot (mugaDh), without virtue (nirgunee), without honor (nimAnaa), iron (loh), child (bArak), sleeping (ham sotay), beggar (bhikhAree), illitrate (parhai nahee ham), dust (Dhoor), mean (neech), meek (deen), utensil of flesh (mAsai kay bhANday), sinner (pApee), dog (dog) and many more.

May I ask if some have found God in all these while realizing NAnak God?


Balbir Singh
Very Respected Balbir Singh Ji,


endless thanks to you for being with us

God is All and All is God.

Jo Kichch Deesay Tera Roop.

You yourself is no dofferent, i see God, Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Naanak Dev Sache Paatshah, Waheguru, Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib (whatever you want to name it) even in your words and through your words.

eh viss sansaar tum dekhde eh har ka roop hai har roop nadri ayeeaa.

eh Maya hai Pram Pita Parmeshwar di.

Guru/God teaches us all the time through it.


endless thanks to you again and again, sir.




forgive me(sagal ki reinaka) please
 
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Respected Sister Surinder Kaurji,

Why are you so angry? Your insistance that I am 'disrespecting' Sikhi is basless. I only asked you questions regarding the meaning of the words used within the Gurbani and our different interpretations of them. How is that disrespect? You, on the one hand keep saying (quite loudly, I might add) that you are not disrespecting my faith and in the same breath you accuse me of 'disrespecting the Aadh Guru Granth Sahib'. That dear Sister, is an attack on my faith.

It is precisely against this accusation that I am reluctantly on these forums again. There is so much propoganda on the internet and the media against Namdhari Sikhs that is breeding hatred amongst the young generation. We are experiencing physical attacks on our Sangat at our Dharamsalas and even in the streets.

Whithin the general body of Sikhs there is this false notion that because Namdhari Sikhs do not believe the Holy Aadh Guru Granth Sahib to be 'living' we disrespect it.

The Holy Gurbani, be it that of our Aadh Gurus or that of Dasam Pithaji is our lifeblood. We are nothing without the Holy Granth Sahibs. So PLEASEcalm down. I am NOT your enemy. I am not misquoting Gurbani, I am only looking at it from a perspective different to yours. That does not mean I desrespect Gurbani, nor does it mean I disrespect your good self.
Like you, I too am content in what I believe. However, your angry outbursts even after I have apologised to you suggest in inner resentment. Please calm down and rise above the anger.

Sat-Sri-Akaal.
 

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