Grammer / Vyakarn Gur Gur-oh Guru / ਗੁਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੂ

[prakash.s.bagga]

SPNADMIN Ji,

I am sorry for sending out edited message I was unaware of this Protocol.
Pl refer to your message as
So what, that the word is pure Sanskrit? "Guru" is not declined in Punjabi as it is in Sanskrit. You yourself have said that only a hint of the grammar of Sanskrit can be found in the grammar of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So you cannot have it both ways. Either Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written in Sanskrit or in Punjabi

I may bring a point to your notice that the use of few words from particular language can not be the basis for the complete language of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .
I have brought this as point of consideration of grammar of the word ਗੁਰੂ You may not find the grammar of this word in any of Punjabi grammar Book
.Since this is the MAIN BASIC WORD of the whole of Gurbanee and this word is from Sanskrit language so its grammar can only be known from the grammar of Sanskrit.

Sanskrit is the only language which has Noun words as SINGULAR (Dual NUMBER)...
SINGULAR (SINGLE NUMBER) or NOUN PLURAL NUMBER.
In actual sanskrit this distinction is done by changing the form of the word whereas in Gurbanee the same thing has been adopted making use of Matra of Aukad and Dulaikad
with words as SINULAR SINGLE NUMBER or SINGULAR (DUAL NUMBER) and words without matra as NOUN PLURAL NUMBERS....So simlified concept we find difficult to accept and
even understand.

Secondly so far Gurbanee interpretations are based as per Gender of the words.
Gender based interpretations are not applicable in one understands Gurbanee in
conext of JOTi.
It is GuR JOTi which is being refered as SINGULAR or PLURAL as ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰ
.
My understanding of Gurbanee is in context of Gur Joti only.So my interpretations are based on consideration of any word being SINGULAR/PLURAL .
I dont understand Gurbanee as per Genders of the words.

Now this is my clear approach if you feel comfortableI may continue participation
otherwise better I dont share my views.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[spnadmin]

prakash s. bagga ji

Are you willing to a) add something new to this discussion; or b) do you intend to keep recycling the same arguments?

Do you intend to provide a reputable source for you claims about the singular/plural of ਗੁਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ?

If your answer is that you are going to recycle the same arguments and you will not provide a reputable source, then you are spamming. The thread will simply go in circles. I have already demonstrated in black and white (http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurban...tml#post176230) that Sanskrit grammar has nothing to offer us when we are thinking about the plural of ਗੁਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. You were the person who brought this up in the first place. Why don't you show me in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji examples that prove your point, with Ang and tuk? Prove that I am wrong with examples. I don't mind being shown my errors. Likewise, I am willing to provide examples of how ਗੁਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੁ do not change their number, only their case, in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, again as I stated above.

If I am wrong, then this discussion will teach me something new. Instead of hinting around and changing your mind, all you have to do is be consistent, specific, logical and provide examples.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

Thank you SPNADMIN Ji,
I have nothing new to add.
Under the present circumstances it would again be better for me to be away from contribution. I have no complaints for this.
Whenever you feel I may be required I shall always be there.
With regards

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

Prakash Singh ji, don't shy away. It is always nice to keep on looking for answers. That is what Sikhi is about. If the whole wisdom of the Universe is in Guru Granth Sahib, then we can spend days and days thinking and contemplating on each pankti, each Shabad.

Other thing you can look into is the larivaar swaroop, which makes me think ਗੁਰ and ਗੁਰੁ mean the same thing, only that ਗੁਰੁ is to actively separate it from the next Shabad.

All the best. Akaal sahai.

 

[Luckysingh]

Prakashji, you can't just do a vanishing act!!!
Remember there has been over 6000 views into this matter, there are thousands of non-members that have tried to learn from this.

I know very well that you can correct others and lead them in the right direction with full explanations when it comes to other areas.
You have rightfully corrected my comments on occasions in good faith with very valid explanations. For this I thank-you, because I have learnt.
However, when it comes back to this conversation, no one seems to grab any end of it and I'm not sure why you can't explain this area as well as other areas where you have contributed.

You made the comment below earlier on

think you all consider GuRu as some physical entity but I consider GuRu as JOTi .This difference is the basic cause of not being able to understand how Gur can be PLURAL.If you sincerely give a thinking to JOTi then I hope you will also come to the same conclusion. Gurbanee is all about JOTi only and oneishuld understand this JOTi as GuROO -GuRu or GuR.

Is this where you think the answer lies ?
If so, could you please elaborate what exactly you mean here because I don't think that any of us actually think of God as some physical entity sat on a throne, like you have deduced.

Is the singularity or plural of the 'jyot' or the multiple rays of this jyot ,what you are using as your key ??
If so, we all need some understanding from some valid explaining by yourself.

You know that I have spent countless hours trying to discover this hidden treasure in the words, but I have never got any closer.

I would be most grateful for a response to help clarify this.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

Let us consider these lines from Mr. Rumsfeld.

The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know

I believe Guru is the known, who has some known unknowns. While Gur is the unknown unknown. And Guru is like our link to Gur.

 

[Ishna]

Is it entirely wrong to say 'Gur' is a plural word? It fits the pattern of other Gurbani masculine plural nouns. Don't plural words in Panjabi and Gurbani denote greater respect sometimes anyway? Perhaps that's the intention. Or perhaps it's just one of those great exceptions which made sense at the time but 500 years later we're all going 'what?'

Voila, one of the traps of religion, freezing scriptures and ideas in time.

 

[spnadmin]

Ishna ji


"Gur" is both the singular and the plural form for the declination that "gur" belongs to. Whether it is meant or intended to be singular or plural is gotten from context, or if it is used with an adjective also declined in the plural. The question I am trying to get an answer to is: Where in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is "gur" ever used as the plural? After looking at more than 1430 examples of the use of the word "gur" I have not yet spotted a plural usage of "gur." My suspicion is that it would make absolutely no sense to "intend" a plural meaning of "gur" in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji because there is only one "gur" about whom or to whom any of the Nanaks are speaking.


If someone is going to make the case that there is some kind of hidden grammar that intends "gur" to be plural in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then that person would be obliged to produce an example of where "gur" is used in the plural in that text. Furthermore if someone is going to make the case that we need to dip into Sanskrit to understand how "gur" can be plural, the argument fails. Because the word "guru" is fully "inflected" in Sanskrit. Meaning that the singular and plural of the word have different endings. "Gur" singular and plural in Punjabi do not.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

The plural form of Gur is seen here:

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.

ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥
The Guru has given me this one understanding:

ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੫॥
There is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him!

Also there is use of Gur for ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ
But we use Gur(u) for ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ

Moreover we also see later in the Paath:

ਪੰਚਾ ਕਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
The chosen ones meditate single-mindedly on the Guru.

Can you focus single mindedly on something plural?

All we have to do is open Gurbani in Unicode and find text ਗੁਰ to highlight all the usage. It is actually a lot interesting.

 

[spnadmin]

Kanwaljit ji

Sorry but the word "Guru's does not denote the plural. It is the possessive of the singular form of guru in the English translation.

The translator turned the ਗੁਰ in ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ to the English "Guru's." Plural would be Gurus in English.

In Punjabi ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ is Gurmukh, and ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ is a compound word consisting of ਗੁਰ and ਮੁਖਿ. So ਗੁਰ is still singular because only one ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ is referred at a time in the passage.

Sorry I have to add. in ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ is not plural either. One guru at a time is referred to one by one, in the nominative case.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Luckysingh ji this subject came to a boil before and same outcome. Let me share some recollections but I am sure someone can search it here as well.

Is the singularity or plural of the 'jyot' or the multiple rays of this jyot ,what you are using as your key ??

The issue turned into an implicit description of the hierarchy of Hindu dieties. It was termed that the setup was like the creator has a board of directors and so on. The cover was almost blown that it was nothing more than preaching the Brahma and sub-Gods, deities model and that such has been put away centuries ago by our Guru ji's in Sikhism as first order of business. I was shocked and dismayed as I held prakash.s.bagga ji in good regard as being knowledgeable when I was new here at spn. It turned out to be just much less and I stopped missing him in my dialogs. We also way back totally exhausted and agreed to a conclusion of all this but after a hiatus he started injecting same stuff again having agreed previously that it was not an issue.

I drew up a chart showing the differences and I posted it here. If I find it on my computer I will post it again.

Unfortunately his thrust was too damaging to be left alone and I have always tried to flag or challenge him so we don't create a mis-leading status through no comment.

This is not a pat on my back as my life or understanding is not dependent upon further clarification in this area. Guru ji's are very level, simple, straight forward and they neither used a language of trickery or hide and seek. It is all up-and-up.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Ambarsaria]

spnadmin ji thanks for your post.

Kanwaljit ji

Sorry but that is not the plural. It is the possessive of the singular form of guru in the English translation. In Punjabi ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ is Gurmukh, and ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ is a compound word consisting of ਗੁਰ and ਮੁਖਿ. So ਗੁਰ is still singular because only one ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ is referred to in the passage.

Sorry I have to add. in ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ is not plural either. One guru at a time is referred to one by one, in the nominative case.

Indeed it does not go unnoticed in its accent by Prof. Sahib Singh ji either. Here the following as it appears Dr. Sant Singh ji/Manmohan Singh ji have missed the nuance from what I can tell,
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ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥
गुरा इक देहि बुझाई ॥
Gurā ik ḏehi bujẖā▫ī.
The Guru has given me this one understanding:
ਗੁਰੂ ਨੇ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਇਕ ਚੀਜ਼ ਸਮਝਾ ਦਿਤੀ ਹੈ।
ਗੁਰਾ = ਹੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ! ਇਕ ਬੁਝਾਈ = ਇਕ ਸਮਝ।
(ਮੇਰੀ ਤਾਂ)ਹੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ! (ਤੇਰੇ ਅੱਗੇ ਅਰਦਾਸ ਹੈ ਕਿ) ਮੈਨੂੰ ਇਕ ਸਮਝ ਦੇਹ,

Satguru (creator) please enlighten me with this one

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ਗੁਰਾ/Gurā is like calling out the creator. It is shortened of Waheguru used by some.

A common phrase murmured by many,

ਗੁਰਾ ਸਭ ਦਾ ਭਲਾ ਕਰੀਂ / God/waheguru, let it be well for all.

Ishna ji has mentioned respectful plural aspect of usage in Punjabi.

The following makes it so,

ਗੁਰਾਂ (is equivalent in some ways to Guru- aan) can be singular - plural as way of respectful addressing. It is also equivalent to Gur/Guru ji.
​

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Kanwaljit.Singh]

No, I was thinking that ਗੁਰਾ is the plural form of ਗੁਰ

 

[spnadmin]

No, I was thinking that ਗੁਰਾ is the plural form of ਗੁਰ

Kanwaljit ji

I think that forum member Ambarsaria ji has answered the point. He is saying that ਗੁਰਾ can be considered plural if it is intended to be a respectful form. However, the respect is shown to only one ਗੁਰ. So we have to understand ਗੁਰਾ sometimes as an idiom or special use of the plural in Punjabi. Many languages do this, use the plural to show respect to a singular entity, ncluding French and Italian. That does not mean that there is a hidden Gurbani grammar in which "gur" is typically plural in SGGS.

I for one will stick with my view that "ਗੁਰਾ " and ਗੁਰ do not refer to a 5-pack of gurus or a 3 pack of Gurmukhs, making it plural in the shabad you so kindly posted.

 

[Ambarsaria]

No, I was thinking that ਗੁਰਾ is the plural form of ਗੁਰ

Sorry Kanwaljit Singh ji that is not so. It is like Rab/(God-creator) to "Rabba"/"Hey God-creator".

One of the plural form of Gur/ਗੁਰ is "Guru-aan"/ਗੁਰੂਆਂ. Hinduism teaches many Guru (constellation of deities in hierarchies) whereas Sikhism teaches the reverse and collapses all into one creator. In Hiduism these sub-Gods and their handlers (Pandits/Brahmins/Yogis/Sidhs?etc.) become conduits to the apex whereas in Sikhism any one of us is equipped to link directly to God/creator through own or acquired/developed wisdom with the help and company of the pious like SGGS.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[spnadmin]

Sorry Kanwaljit Singh ji that is not so. It is like Rab/(God-creator) to "Rabba"/"Hey God-creator".

One of the plural form of Gur/ਗੁਰ is "Guru-aan"/ਗੁਰੂਆਂ. Hinduism teaches many Guru (constellation of deities in hierarchies) whereas Sikhism teaches the reverse and collapses all into one creator. In Hiduism these sub-Gods and their handlers (Pandits/Brahmins/Yogis/Sidhs?etc.) become conduits to the apex whereas in Sikhism any one of us is equipped to link directly to God/creator through own or acquired/developed wisdom with the help and company of the pious like Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Sat Sri Akal.

I really LOVED this post. So much knowledge packed into it. I plan to search in SGGS for ਗੁਰੂਆਂ to see if I can find it. If it is there, then I will lighten up on my comments. Thanks thanks thanks

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

I dont think i have come across Guruuuann ਗੁਰੂਆਂ in SGGS...because SGGS is all about the ONE GURU !!! There is a NIGURAH (without a GURU) but no ਗੁਰੂਆਂ...but still good luck with your explorative journey ji...

 

[Ishna]

I dont think i have come across Guruuuann ਗੁਰੂਆਂ in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...because Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is all about the ONE GURU !!! There is a NIGURAH (without a GURU) but no ਗੁਰੂਆਂ...but still good luck with your explorative journey ji...

Totally off topic but isn't that a feminine plural?

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

One can think on this Quote from Gurbanee as

ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਵਾਇਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਨਚਨਿ ਗੁਰ ॥ ਪੈਰ ਹਲਾਇਨਿ ਫੇਰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ pp465 SGGS

In This context the word ਗੁਰ referes to Numbers of GuROO. and is Plural

Even Prof Sahib Singh ji gives the meaning as Cheleian De GuROO for the word GuR.

Prakash.s.Bagga

 

[Ishna]

An English search of srigranth for 'gurus' returns 9 results. The instance where GuR is spelt without aukad and is translated as plural that I can see is 4, including Prakash ji's quoted tuk.

That's not a lot, my friend. :motherlylove: One might say the lack of results is due to inaccurate English translation to begin with. If so, re-translations need to be provided as examples.

As has already been mentioned, context is thoroughly important. The very first word in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the number 1. That pretty much sets the tone for the rest of the scripture.