☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
God Being Nirgun And Sargun
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pk70" data-source="post: 100266" data-attributes="member: 5889"><p>The creator has been projected as “Nirgun” (with out attributes of Maya or unseen) and “Sargun (with attributes of Maya/Mother Nature). God has said to possess no qualities when It has drawn the world within Itself. It is said to possess all qualities when It projects matter from It to form creation. <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-nanak-dev/" target="_blank">Guru Nanak</a>, Guru Arjan, and Guru Amardas describe in Raag Maru that God was with out attributes for 36(Many)ages (Jug’s) <u>in the form of negativity.</u>(quote VSGrewal Ji)</p><p> <strong> Respected Vsgrewal Ji</strong></p><p> <strong>What do you mean by negativity? </strong></p><p> <strong>( Raag Maru Mehla 1, SGGS 1023) you need to understand “dhandokar”(utter darkness where nothing is seen or knowable) too to grasp the idea otherwise the meaning of negativity will convey wrong meaning and this is the reason your ideas jump like a frog from one corner to another without any certainty, when your ideas like this are questioned, you take different road instead of explaining them. You are not trying to understand what Guru meant by “Sunnh and Dhandakar” but invent your own ideology like calling God a spiritual metaphysical energy and principle. Keeping the concept of “Sunnh and Dhandokar” described by Guru in mind, no reasonable person can call Him absolute principle. Principles cannot be in trance, negativity has a difficulty to be in existence if it is measured up to universe expansion as per Guru (not science). If you say God do not exist, I have no problem with that but if you attribute something like” God is a principle” to Gurbani, I would not let you go without questioning because facts in SGGS say otherwise.</strong></p><p> <strong>Now let’s look at your given quote</strong></p><p> <span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਪੇ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪੇਡੁ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਿਸਥਾਰੀ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਾਖ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਪਨੀ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਖੇਤੀ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਪੇ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਾਖ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੧</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'"> ਜਤ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਤ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪੇਖਉ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਏਕੈ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਓਹੀ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਘਟ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਘਟ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅੰਤਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਪੇ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੋਈ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੧</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਹਾਉ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥ [/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਪੇ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੂਰੁ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਿਰਣਿ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੋਈ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੁਪਤੁ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੋਈ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਕਾਰੁ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੨</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'"> ਸਰਗੁਣ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਿਰਗੁਣ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਥਾਪੈ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਾਉ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦੁਹ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਿਲਿ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਏਕੈ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੀਨੋ</span></span><span style="color: #00b050"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਠਾਉ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੩</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥ [/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਹੁ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਾਨਕ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੁਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭ੍ਰਮੁ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭਉ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਖੋਇਆ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਨਦ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰੂਪੁ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਭੁ</span></span><span style="color: #00b050"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨੈਨ</span></span><span style="color: #00b050"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਲੋਇਆ</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੪</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੧੭</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੬੮</span></span><span style="color: #c00000">॥[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #c00000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #c00000"><em>Āpe ped bisthārī sāk</em></span><em><span style="color: #c00000">ẖ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000">. Apnī k</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ẖ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000">e</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ṯ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000">ī āpe rāk</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ẖ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000">. ||1|| Ja</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ṯ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"> ka</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ṯ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"> pek</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ẖ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000">a</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">▫[/FONT]</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">o ekai ohī.</span><span style="color: #c00000"> G</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ẖ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000">at g</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ẖ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000">at an</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ṯ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000">ar āpe so</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">▫[/FONT]</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ī. ||1|| rahā</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">▫[/FONT]</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">o. Āpe sūr kira</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ṇ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"> bisthār. So</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">▫[/FONT]</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ī</span><span style="color: #c00000"> gupa</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ṯ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"> so</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">▫[/FONT]</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ī ākār. ||2|| Sargu</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ṇ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"> nirgu</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ṇ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"> thāpai nā</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">▫[/FONT]</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">o. </span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">Ḏ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000">uh mil ekai kīno </span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ṯẖ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000">ā</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">▫[/FONT]</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">o. ||3|| Kaho Nānak gur b</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ẖ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000">aram b</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ẖ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000">a</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">▫[/FONT]</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">o k</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ẖ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000">o</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">▫[/FONT]</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">i</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">▫[/FONT]</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ā. Ana</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ḏ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"> rūp sab</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ẖ[/FONT]</span><span style="color: #c00000"> nain alo</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">▫[/FONT]</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">i</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">▫[/FONT]</span></em><em><span style="color: #c00000">ā. ||4||17||68|</span><span style="color: #c00000">|</span></em><span style="color: #c00000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #c00000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #c00000">Akal Purkh I<u>tself</u> is the tree, and the branches extending out, and preserves Its own crop. ||1|| wherever I look, I see that One Akal Purkh alone. Deep within each and every heart, <u>It Itself</u> is contained. ||1||Pause|| <u>It Itsel</u>f is the sun, and the rays emanating from it. It is concealed and revealed too. ||2|| It is said to be of the highest attributes, and without attributes. Both converge onto Its </span><u><span style="color: #00b050">single point</span><span style="color: #c00000">.</span></u><span style="color: #c00000"> ||3|| Says <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-nanak-dev/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #c00000">Nanak</span></a>, the Guru has dispelled my doubt and fear. With my eyes, I </span><span style="color: #00b050">perceive </span><span style="color: #c00000">the Akal Purkh, the embodiment of bliss, to be everywhere. ||4||17||68|| ------Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 387-18</span></p><p> <strong>By passing your translation (because you have used a few words I don’t agree with them but<u> still sense is conveyed</u>) what I would like to ask you is that when you read above Gurbani, how you can reduce Him to be a principle or a spiritual metaphysical energy? Any hint about that in the above quote or in any other you are aware of? Here I am trying to say that either you follow Guru to pass on what he says instead of coining new concept of God or reject him to advocate your inventive concepts. Often you hint about open minds, do you think to coin new concepts of God is to have open mind while discussing Gurbani? </strong></p><p> <strong>You also use “it” for Akalpurakh but Gurus haven’t looked at him in that way?</strong></p><p> <strong>Are you worried of God 's gender? Guru Sahiban call Him, mata and also pita, but also address Him often as “Pati=Husband”, also call Him Karta not karnevali , Sahib not Sahiban, Khasam not Beevee. Why does it worry you, it didn’t bother Guru Sahiban. These are the complexes that break you away from them.</strong></p><p> <strong>Aad Ji has asked you questions triggered by your statements, now you have quoted a few shabadas. Let me repeat her questions so that you can answer them since I am also interested in the answers if you provide ( I doubt though) Green fonts display your statements and black one is aad ji’s commentary like questions. </strong></p><p> <strong> Note: Aad Ji, I hope you wouldn’t mind if I repeat your questions as I am also interested in answers.</strong></p><p> <em><span style="color: darkgreen">“The creator has been projected as “Nirgun” (with out attributes of Maya or unseen) and “Sargun (with attributes of Maya/Mother Nature).</span></em> Nirgun may mean more than that. Sargun may also mean more than that. “</p><p> <strong>Here she is simply telling you that the concept you are expressing could be bigger than that. I agree with her. Would you?</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong>“I confess, I don't understand what this means. <em><span style="color: darkgreen">It is said to possess all qualities when It projects matter from It to form creation.</span></em> When did this idea take birth? it is very theoretical, and my mind may be too cunning to help itself out of its own confusion. “</p><p><strong>She is asking you to define the statement with example, you can do that. Let me make it more simple, are you saying when God projects matter to form creation, he posses all qualities but when he doesn’t project matter to form something, he doesn’t possess those qualities? I am aware Gurbani states He squeezes everything into Himself but question is about qualities.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p>And in this statement, </p><p><em><span style="color: darkgreen"><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-nanak-dev/" target="_blank">Guru Nanak</a>, Guru Arjan, and Guru Amardas describe in Raag Maru that God was with out attributes for 36(Many)ages (Jug’s) in the form of negativity.</span></em> If God is without attributes, then how can God take form of anything. Isn't negativity an attribute. Please explain where my intellect is lacking.</p><p> <strong>Here your use of “negativity” is confusing, please elaborate on that. The Guru shabadas you have quoted have no ambiguity as they are coming out of personal experience, your statement contains ambiguity as it is a sheer guessing. You have to clarify that.</strong></p><p> <strong>With regards</strong></p><p> <strong>G Singh</strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pk70, post: 100266, member: 5889"] The creator has been projected as “Nirgun” (with out attributes of Maya or unseen) and “Sargun (with attributes of Maya/Mother Nature). God has said to possess no qualities when It has drawn the world within Itself. It is said to possess all qualities when It projects matter from It to form creation. [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-nanak-dev/"]Guru Nanak[/URL], Guru Arjan, and Guru Amardas describe in Raag Maru that God was with out attributes for 36(Many)ages (Jug’s) [U]in the form of negativity.[/U](quote VSGrewal Ji) [B] Respected Vsgrewal Ji[/B] [B]What do you mean by negativity? [/B] [B]( Raag Maru Mehla 1, SGGS 1023) you need to understand “dhandokar”(utter darkness where nothing is seen or knowable) too to grasp the idea otherwise the meaning of negativity will convey wrong meaning and this is the reason your ideas jump like a frog from one corner to another without any certainty, when your ideas like this are questioned, you take different road instead of explaining them. You are not trying to understand what Guru meant by “Sunnh and Dhandakar” but invent your own ideology like calling God a spiritual metaphysical energy and principle. Keeping the concept of “Sunnh and Dhandokar” described by Guru in mind, no reasonable person can call Him absolute principle. Principles cannot be in trance, negativity has a difficulty to be in existence if it is measured up to universe expansion as per Guru (not science). If you say God do not exist, I have no problem with that but if you attribute something like” God is a principle” to Gurbani, I would not let you go without questioning because facts in SGGS say otherwise.[/B] [B]Now let’s look at your given quote[/B] [COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਆਪੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਪੇਡੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਬਿਸਥਾਰੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਸਾਖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਅਪਨੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਖੇਤੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਆਪੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਰਾਖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]੧[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi] ਜਤ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਕਤ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਪੇਖਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਏਕੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਓਹੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਘਟ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਘਟ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਅੰਤਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਆਪੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਸੋਈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]੧[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਰਹਾਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥ [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਆਪੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਸੂਰੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਕਿਰਣਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਸੋਈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਗੁਪਤੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਸੋਈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਆਕਾਰੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]੨[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi] ਸਰਗੁਣ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਨਿਰਗੁਣ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਥਾਪੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਨਾਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਦੁਹ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਮਿਲਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਏਕੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਕੀਨੋ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#00b050][FONT=Raavi]ਠਾਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]੩[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥ [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਕਹੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਨਾਨਕ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਗੁਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਭ੍ਰਮੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਭਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਖੋਇਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਅਨਦ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਰੂਪੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]ਸਭੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#00b050][FONT=Raavi]ਨੈਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#00b050][FONT=Raavi]ਅਲੋਇਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]੪[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]੧੭[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000][FONT=Raavi]੬੮[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000] [I]Āpe ped bisthārī sāk[/I][/COLOR][I][COLOR=#c00000]ẖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]. Apnī k[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ẖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]e[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ṯ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]ī āpe rāk[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ẖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]. ||1|| Ja[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ṯ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000] ka[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ṯ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000] pek[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ẖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]a[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]▫[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]o ekai ohī.[/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000] G[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ẖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]at g[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ẖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]at an[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ṯ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]ar āpe so[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]▫[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ī. ||1|| rahā[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]▫[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]o. Āpe sūr kira[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ṇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000] bisthār. So[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]▫[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ī[/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000] gupa[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ṯ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000] so[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]▫[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ī ākār. ||2|| Sargu[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ṇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000] nirgu[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ṇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000] thāpai nā[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]▫[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]o. [/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]Ḏ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]uh mil ekai kīno [/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ṯẖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]ā[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]▫[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]o. ||3|| Kaho Nānak gur b[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ẖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]aram b[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ẖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]a[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]▫[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]o k[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ẖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]o[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]▫[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]i[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]▫[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ā. Ana[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ḏ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000] rūp sab[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ẖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000] nain alo[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]▫[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]i[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]▫[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=#c00000]ā. ||4||17||68|[/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]|[/COLOR][/I][COLOR=#c00000] Akal Purkh I[U]tself[/U] is the tree, and the branches extending out, and preserves Its own crop. ||1|| wherever I look, I see that One Akal Purkh alone. Deep within each and every heart, [U]It Itself[/U] is contained. ||1||Pause|| [U]It Itsel[/U]f is the sun, and the rays emanating from it. It is concealed and revealed too. ||2|| It is said to be of the highest attributes, and without attributes. Both converge onto Its [/COLOR][U][COLOR=#00b050]single point[/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000].[/COLOR][/U][COLOR=#c00000] ||3|| Says [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-nanak-dev/"][COLOR=#c00000]Nanak[/COLOR][/URL], the Guru has dispelled my doubt and fear. With my eyes, I [/COLOR][COLOR=#00b050]perceive [/COLOR][COLOR=#c00000]the Akal Purkh, the embodiment of bliss, to be everywhere. ||4||17||68|| ------Guru Arjan, Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 387-18[/COLOR] [B]By passing your translation (because you have used a few words I don’t agree with them but[U] still sense is conveyed[/U]) what I would like to ask you is that when you read above Gurbani, how you can reduce Him to be a principle or a spiritual metaphysical energy? Any hint about that in the above quote or in any other you are aware of? Here I am trying to say that either you follow Guru to pass on what he says instead of coining new concept of God or reject him to advocate your inventive concepts. Often you hint about open minds, do you think to coin new concepts of God is to have open mind while discussing Gurbani? [/B] [B]You also use “it” for Akalpurakh but Gurus haven’t looked at him in that way?[/B] [B]Are you worried of God 's gender? Guru Sahiban call Him, mata and also pita, but also address Him often as “Pati=Husband”, also call Him Karta not karnevali , Sahib not Sahiban, Khasam not Beevee. Why does it worry you, it didn’t bother Guru Sahiban. These are the complexes that break you away from them.[/B] [B]Aad Ji has asked you questions triggered by your statements, now you have quoted a few shabadas. Let me repeat her questions so that you can answer them since I am also interested in the answers if you provide ( I doubt though) Green fonts display your statements and black one is aad ji’s commentary like questions. [/B] [B] Note: Aad Ji, I hope you wouldn’t mind if I repeat your questions as I am also interested in answers.[/B] [I][COLOR=darkgreen]“The creator has been projected as “Nirgun” (with out attributes of Maya or unseen) and “Sargun (with attributes of Maya/Mother Nature).[/COLOR][/I] Nirgun may mean more than that. Sargun may also mean more than that. “ [B]Here she is simply telling you that the concept you are expressing could be bigger than that. I agree with her. Would you? [/B]“I confess, I don't understand what this means. [I][COLOR=darkgreen]It is said to possess all qualities when It projects matter from It to form creation.[/COLOR][/I] When did this idea take birth? it is very theoretical, and my mind may be too cunning to help itself out of its own confusion. “ [B]She is asking you to define the statement with example, you can do that. Let me make it more simple, are you saying when God projects matter to form creation, he posses all qualities but when he doesn’t project matter to form something, he doesn’t possess those qualities? I am aware Gurbani states He squeezes everything into Himself but question is about qualities. [/B] And in this statement, [I][COLOR=darkgreen][URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-nanak-dev/"]Guru Nanak[/URL], Guru Arjan, and Guru Amardas describe in Raag Maru that God was with out attributes for 36(Many)ages (Jug’s) in the form of negativity.[/COLOR][/I] If God is without attributes, then how can God take form of anything. Isn't negativity an attribute. Please explain where my intellect is lacking. [B]Here your use of “negativity” is confusing, please elaborate on that. The Guru shabadas you have quoted have no ambiguity as they are coming out of personal experience, your statement contains ambiguity as it is a sheer guessing. You have to clarify that.[/B] [B]With regards[/B] [B]G Singh[/B] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
God Being Nirgun And Sargun
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top