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Fate, Destiny, Pre-Destination, Likhia

Ishna

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If hukam is natural law, then we have no choice but to follow it. I can't disobey gravity or I die. Wouldn't it make the science of physics the ultimate religion?

Nevertheless, I agree hukam is natural law, but isn't it also more than that? More subtle, involving human interactions? For instance, Guru Arjun Ji was accepting the bhanna (pleasure/will) of god by allowing the events to unfold as they did, but the events are not natural law, they are man made interferences.

Also, how can anyone have a choice if their action becomes hukam for someone else? Is the perpetrator not acting as an agent of hukam, like a puppet?

I asked my Christian friend what she thought about fate/destiny. Her answer was that she doesn't use those terms, she uses 'God's plan'. God has a plan for her in life, but it is up to her whether she follows it or not. If she follows it, she fulfills her destiny. But she has a choice not to follow it and reap the consequenses.

I said, what if it's your destiny NOT to follow the plan? And with that, the discussion died.

It appears the whole 'pre-determined' translation arises from trying to convey the sense that 'if you do X, they Y will happen'. For instance, taking the tuk Embersji cited:

Page 280, Line 13
ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਕਾ ਧੁਰਿ ਹੀ ਪਇਆ ॥
किरतु निंदक का धुरि ही पइआ ॥
Kiraṯ ninḏak kā ḏẖur hī pa▫i▫ā.
The fate of the slanderer is pre-ordained from the very beginning of time.
Guru Arjan Dev
I think, from my very small knowledge of Gurbani, that it shouldn't say 'from the beginning of time' because that is confusing.

If the faithless slanderer gets around being faithless and nasty, then he's setting himself up for failure. If you set the pot of water on the heat, it is the FATE of the water to boil. If you refuse to do good deeds, it is your FATE right from the beginning of your endeavour, to miss out on Realisation. It is not pre-ordained by God since the dawn of time that there would exist Sam the Slanderer and he would slander and be nasty and die in loneliness. It is the natural course of events from the beginning of Sam slandering that he dies in loneliness.

I think the translations are the problem. gingerteakaur
 
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Luckysingh

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Well Sikhism perceives god as a creator, we agree on this yes? Hmm, you may find my writings within the realm of Sikhism, but this is simply a matter of how you perceive the religion itself.
In sikhism, the core is ek onkaar, there IS the One, and there always was and will be.
Harvirji, I believe that you consider your life to be totally unaffected whether there is or isn't a god. I believe an apatheist does NOT deny such existence if any but denies that such a god can be or not be as it won't make any difference to them.

Therefore,I don't think that being an apatheist is in the realm of sikhism as in sikhism, knowing and having faith in the ONE is the core root of the religion.

I believe Harryji is thinking more on the lines that God is not a man in robes or a supreme being. He is a physical entity of some sort that is the source of all creation. When I say physical entity- it does not mean that he is composed of molecules like the rest of the universe,
but he is the sourceof every single atom or molecule as such.

Sikhi doesn't define any descriptions of god, but then you can imagine him
as you wish. The only thing that is clear is that when one may be less attached and more closer to him, then they Know and feel his presence much closer.

We can't follow sikhi teachings if we assume that there is No God and there is only us and what we can see.
 

Harvir007

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In sikhism, the core is ek onkaar, there IS the One, and there always was and will be.
Harvirji, I believe that you consider your life to be totally unaffected whether there is or isn't a god. I believe an apatheist does NOT deny such existence if any but denies that such a god can be or not be as it won't make any difference to them.

Therefore,I don't think that being an apatheist is in the realm of sikhism as in sikhism, knowing and having faith in the ONE is the core root of the religion.

I believe Harryji is thinking more on the lines that God is not a man in robes or a supreme being. He is a physical entity of some sort that is the source of all creation. When I say physical entity- it does not mean that he is composed of molecules like the rest of the universe,
but he is the sourceof every single atom or molecule as such.

Sikhi doesn't define any descriptions of god, but then you can imagine him
as you wish. The only thing that is clear is that when one may be less attached and more closer to him, then they Know and feel his presence much closer.

We can't follow sikhi teachings if we assume that there is No God and there is only us and what we can see.
Precisely what I'm saying, I don't believe in a benevolent power so I myself don't see myself in the 'realm' of Sikhism. Well no, I don't deny because it's unwise to do so. I can't say with 100% conviction that I deny there is a flying spaghetti monster either.
 

Ishna

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Thanks.

I've been watching a series on TV where Richard and his team dissect animals looking for clues to their evolution, like how the whale has redundant thigh bones from when it used to be a land mammal and how the giraffe has metres of nerve cord because it's neck didn't used to be so long so even though the nerve just has to go from one part of the heart to another it got caught up with a bundle of nerves so now the signal has to go all the way up the neck just to come all the way back down again, haha.

There is one moment in an episode (can't remember which one) where Richard actually says something like, 'what a strange design' or 'what a brilliant design' and his team start laughing at him because he said it without thinking, hehehe!

Oh look, I'm even taking my own threads off-topic now. Go me! cheerleader
 

Luckysingh

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If hukam is natural law, then we have no choice but to follow it. I can't disobey gravity or I die. Wouldn't it make the science of physics the ultimate religion?

Nevertheless, I agree hukam is natural law, but isn't it also more than that? More subtle, involving human interactions? For instance, Guru Arjun Ji was accepting the banana (pleasure/will) of god by allowing the events to unfold as they did, but the events are not natural law, they are man made interferences.

Also, how can anyone have a choice if their actin becomes someone else's hukam?is the perpetrator not acting as an agent of hukam, like a puppet?

I guess that would be true if there was an 'other' to be a puppet but no, it's all Creator in the soup. More later
There is the natural order of creation, that is what comes first after the initial creation- meaning after the order of God that created creation.
Now, this natural order is such that it can continue for eternity without any disturbances. Such as,. we have life cycles of every species and plant that can ALL be linked to one another. If these cycles had continued without interuption of man into this natural order then there would have been stable continuation forever, with life cycles simply cycling everywhere.

But, we don't have stability due to man interrupting this natural order.. I mean, we don't know when the next natural disaster will be and how many lfe cycles of species have been completely removed because of our behaviour.
This is only known and commanded under the Hukam, this hukam has had to change along with time from the intial creation. It changes to counteract the changes to the WHOLE creation.
Meaning that when we had creation at first there was the natural world order that was commanded by the initial hukam. When this natural order is upset and tampered wth, then the initial hukam has to change in order to keep the continuation.

I know so many people will not agree with this, because so many millions of lives are lost due to acts of God or nature.
-TRUE.. but I think we have to think of the whole universe in terms of molecular levels as that is what ALL of creation is composed of.

I'm pretty sure if someone has the chance to ask the Lord of how so many innocent lives are justified by a tsunami for eg. ..-Then I'm sure he could show you the balance sheets clarifying the whole molecular balance, it's interruptions and corrections.

NOTE- This type of metaphor concerning balance, give and take, accounts..etc...etc.. is very important in understanding the whole creation.
Guru Nanak Ji used the same metaphor when mentioning Chitr, Gupt and Dharamraj..etc. to explain to us that good deeds and bad are all accounted for with regards to the whole creation. There is a knock on effect with all these doings.
It doesn't mean that we face the Lord and then he reads the account given by Daramraj that was compiled by chitr and gupt. BUT, it is ALL about understanding the Universal concept and not anything about the ''staff'' in the Lord's office!!!- As there is no such office or staff from what I gather.
He is capable of ''playing'' all these roles as ONE.


Ishnaji, what you mentioned in the beginnig of your post about there being more than hukam such as the interactions by us..etc..
--YES, - you are correct and on the right track from what I think.
It is this change in order of hukam that comes after the changes caused by us in the Natural World Order.

If you understand what I mean by this, then you should also understand that ''karma'' does exist. This ''karma'' is regulated by our very interactions and actions that can in turn affect the Lord's Hukam. How he does it, which way he does it, is entirely upto him.

NOTE- my interpretaton of Karma has been mentioned elsewhere. It is NOT about setting yourself for your next incarnation or anything else vedic.
It is simply about the results from all your good and bad actions throughout time and how they affect others. Good karma does not been that i will be reborn as a maharaja.
But it may mean that if I am in a car with 4 others and we crash, then my injuries may be less because of good karma or my outcome may be better than if I had too much bad karma. Of course, this is will all be regulated under hukam, especially if none of us die.
But, the karma can affect the way we hande certain situations and outcomes.

...Above are only a fraction of examples, so if not clear, I will try to give more.


Sat Kartar
 

Embers

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If hukam is natural law, then we have no choice but to follow it. I can't disobey gravity or I die. Wouldn't it make the science of physics the ultimate religion?

Nevertheless, I agree hukam is natural law, but isn't it also more than that? More subtle, involving human interactions? For instance, Guru Arjun Ji was accepting the bhanna (pleasure/will) of god by allowing the events to unfold as they did, but the events are not natural law, they are man made interferences.
Thought provoking post, Ishna Ji.
I think for some Science has become their religion.
In my opinion man is a part of nature, it is Maya which makes man think he is separate from God and nature.

Also, how can anyone have a choice if their action becomes hukam for someone else? Is the perpetrator not acting as an agent of hukam, like a puppet?

I asked my Christian friend what she thought about fate/destiny. Her answer was that she doesn't use those terms, she uses 'God's plan'. God has a plan for her in life, but it is up to her whether she follows it or not. If she follows it, she fulfills her destiny. But she has a choice not to follow it and reap the consequenses.

I said, what if it's your destiny NOT to follow the plan? And with that, the discussion died
.

Could it be that it is also God's plan that we think we have choice?
In Indian philosophy there is an example of a goat, tied by a rope to post in the ground, the goat thinks it is free to roam but in reality it is always bound to the post (God's will).

It appears the whole 'pre-determined' translation arises from trying to convey the sense that 'if you do X, they Y will happen'. For instance, taking the tuk Embersji cited:

Page 280, Line 13
ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਕਾ ਧੁਰਿ ਹੀ ਪਇਆ ॥
किरतु निंदक का धुरि ही पइआ ॥
Kiraṯ ninḏak kā ḏẖur hī pa▫i▫ā.
The fate of the slanderer is pre-ordained from the very beginning of time.
Guru Arjan Dev
I think, from my very small knowledge of Gurbani, that it shouldn't say 'from the beginning of time' because that is confusing.

If the faithless slanderer gets around being faithless and nasty, then he's setting himself up for failure. If you set the pot of water on the heat, it is the FATE of the water to boil. If you refuse to do good deeds, it is your FATE right from the beginning of your endeavour, to miss out on Realisation. It is not pre-ordained by God since the dawn of time that there would exist Sam the Slanderer and he would slander and be nasty and die in loneliness. It is the natural course of events from the beginning of Sam slandering that he dies in loneliness.

I think the translations are the problem. gingerteakaur
I took this verse more lightly to mean that "if you continue to slander you will always suffer". So rather than a person being a Slanderer for ever it may mean that the fate of slandering will always be suffering and this has been pre-ordained from the beginning of time. Really a person may not always be a slanderer through their many lives, I feel God is merciful and people will change even their bad ways.

Best wishes.
 

Harry Haller

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Could it be that it is also God's plan that we think we have choice?
In Indian philosophy there is an example of a goat, tied by a rope to post in the ground, the goat thinks it is free to roam but in reality it is always bound to the post (God's will).
The SGGS makes many points about the benefit of following God's will as opposed to your own. I think we have full choice, and my body bears the scars of the consequences of that choice.

The reality is that our fate is in our own hands, the end result is known only to Creator. In that sense, it is fated, but only in the sense that each action has its outcome already known, rather than being limited to a written single action/outcome.

We are free to choose whatever action we wish, be it our ego writing cheques that our bodies cannot cash, which results in moral bankruptcy and distance from Creator, to concentrating on love, compassion, understanding, contentment, which brings us closer to Creator.

The closer we get, the happier we are, the further away, the more we have to chase the dragon.

It is our choice, we make our own fate, the wise amongst us knows the outcome of each action, and plant seeds accordingly, the stupid, myself included, also know the outcome, but plant seeds for today, not tommorow

my opinion only
 

Embers

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I like your view Harry Ji, you made an impression on me in an earlier post too.
Your joke above on the circles made me laugh!

I think that a person's view, where ever it falls on the scale between 'complete free will to complete determinism', is the right view for that person at that time in their life. And I am happy with that. :)
 

Embers

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I am sorry that you deleted your post, Ishna Ji. Although I am sure you know best. 0:)

I thought your post was excellent and I read it but didn't have time to reply earlier. I will try to contribute something further to this topic in the comings days, as I think there is still a few things to cover, if no one minds (I am happy to be corrected).
 

Embers

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We will always have choice.
I think there is a sensation that Hukam implies we will loose our choice, or that because we have choices to make then Hukam doesn’t apply to everything.

I would like to share my understanding and learn from others based on that.

There seems to be a contradiction. The contradiction is between two types of verse in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Really there is not a contradiction but two views used interchangeably.

The two types of verses might be summarised as: 1) That everyting is Hukam and 2) that there is a choice to make which leads to be Gurmukh or Manmukh.

The contradiction is eliminated or becomes clearer in my opinion, if we tackle the two views of Indian philosophy then look at the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in light of those views with a few examples. We can then come back to Hukam and choice. The two views are:

1) The Absolute view, that of God being everything.
2) The Relative view, that of humans and our interaction

In my humble opinion the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji moves between both views, continuously painting a picture, forcing us to open our eyes:

Here is the Absolute view, from how God must see it:

Page 11, Line 12
ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਵਰਤੈ ਜੀ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
तुधु आपे भावै सोई वरतै जी तूं आपे करहि सु होई ॥
Ŧuḏẖ āpe bẖāvai so▫ī varṯai jī ṯūʼn āpe karahi so ho▫ī.
Everything happens according to Your Will. You Yourself accomplish all that occurs.
Guru Ram Das

Here is the Relative view of how we see it, it tends to imply action and choice:

Page 23, Line 15
ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਬੀਜੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਰੋ ਸਲਿਲ ਆਪਾਉ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਣੀ ॥
इहु तनु धरती बीजु करमा करो सलिल आपाउ सारिंगपाणी ॥
Ih ṯan ḏẖarṯī bīj karmā karo salil āpā▫o sāringpāṇī.
Make this body the field, and plant the seed of good actions. Water it with the Name of the Lord, who holds all the world in His Hands.
Guru Nanak Dev

Here is an Absolute view followed by a Relative view in bold:

Page 35, Line 1
ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਕਹਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
सभ किछु आपे आपि है हउमै विचि कहनु न जाइ ॥
Sabẖ kicẖẖ āpe āp hai ha▫umai vicẖ kahan na jā▫e.
God Himself is everything; those who are in their ego cannot even speak of this.
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


If we recognise that we can start to see these two views: Absolute and Relative and how they mix or appear in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then we can start to see that there is not a contradiction but rather two ways of seeing things. This has the advantage that we can live life from either view (Absolute or Relative or both). We can make choices on the Relative view knowing that really everyting is God so really all we are doing is just as God permits based on the Absolute view. It is so because if everything is God then how would anything not be done under His command (Absolute view)?

I will post again on choice and how these two views explain Hukam and choice.
 
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Harry Haller

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We will always have choice.
I think there is a sensation that Hukam implies we will loose our choice, or that because we have choices to make then Hukam doesn’t apply to everything.

I would like to share my understanding and learn from others based on that.

There seems to be a contradiction. The contradiction is between two types of verse in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Really there is not a contradiction but two views used interchangeably.

The two types of verses might be summarised as: 1) That everyting is Hukam and 2) that there is a choice to make which leads to be Gurmukh or Manmukh.

The contradiction is eliminated or becomes clearer in my opinion, if we tackle the two views of Indian philosophy then look at the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in light of those views with a few examples. We can then come back to Hukam and choice. The two views are:

1) The Absolute view, that of God being everything.
2) The Relative view, that of humans and our interaction

In my humble opinion the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji moves between both views, continuously painting a picture, forcing us to open our eyes:

Here is the Absolute view, from how God must see it:

Page 11, Line 12
ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਵਰਤੈ ਜੀ ਤੂੰ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
तुधु आपे भावै सोई वरतै जी तूं आपे करहि सु होई ॥
Ŧuḏẖ āpe bẖāvai so▫ī varṯai jī ṯūʼn āpe karahi so ho▫ī.
Everything happens according to Your Will. You Yourself accomplish all that occurs.
Guru Ram Das

Here is the Relative view of how we see it, it tends to imply action and choice:

Page 23, Line 15
ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਬੀਜੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਰੋ ਸਲਿਲ ਆਪਾਉ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਪਾਣੀ ॥
इहु तनु धरती बीजु करमा करो सलिल आपाउ सारिंगपाणी ॥
Ih ṯan ḏẖarṯī bīj karmā karo salil āpā▫o sāringpāṇī.
Make this body the field, and plant the seed of good actions. Water it with the Name of the Lord, who holds all the world in His Hands.
Guru Nanak Dev

Here is an Absolute view followed by a Relative view in bold:

Page 35, Line 1
ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਕਹਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
सभ किछु आपे आपि है हउमै विचि कहनु न जाइ ॥
Sabẖ kicẖẖ āpe āp hai ha▫umai vicẖ kahan na jā▫e.
God Himself is everything; those who are in their ego cannot even speak of this.
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok


If we recognise that we can start to see these two views: Absolute and Relative and how they mix or appear in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, then we can start to see that there is not a contradiction but rather two ways of seeing things. This has the advantage that we can live life from either view (Absolute or Relative or both). We can make choices on the Relative view knowing that really everyting is God so really all we are doing is just as God permits based on the Absolute view. It is so because if everything is God then how would anything not be done under His command (Absolute view)?

I will post again on choice and how these two views explain Hukam and choice.
wahkaur

My thoughts are similar, I think when you try and understand Creators thinking, you are always going to come unstuck, which is maybe why we have to rationalise our thinking and accept that we will only ever see the human point of view
 

Ishna

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Embersji, your eloquence is astounding. Thank you for taking the time from your studies to help a noob like me grasp at some understanding. kaurhug
 

Luckysingh

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We have discussed Hukam, Destiny and Free-Will, with some great and informative posts by Embersji, Ishnaji and Harryji.

There is an angle that has been touched slightly, but not gone in too deep!
That is '' How do we put Hukam, destiny and free-will, ALL occuring simultaneously together ?'' or ''How can they co-exist together if Free-Will can be controlled by us and Hukam is the divine order ?''

In practical life, when is something ALL under Hukam and when is something completely self controlled or done by self-will for shaping and deviating the directions of our future ?
We try and think that favourable consequences and actions have been controlled by self-will. However, when we can't explain or understand something, then we blame others or we blame the Lord's Hukam (oh, it was the Lord's will and order that such a tragedy happened!!)


Gurbani teaches us the essence and how to live in a gurmat manner. It can help shape our mode of thinking and evaluating into a gurmat mode, providing we can feel the essence and feel the frequency of vibrations that the ShabadGuru speaks in.
In this manner, we may come to strong conclusions or understanding of such questions as in the above.
We can't always get answers or explanations from specific pages, but we can try and conclude from what is given throughout.
In our minds, we have vast information and teachings all scrambled that have come from the bani....ie.-a little from different pages throughout that have made their imprints in our brains all scattered around.

Saying this, I can't just put 2 and 2 together to give a straight direct answer to the above, but I can try and enhance our understanding of the matter.

So, here goes-

- We know from many references that we are under the stranglehold of Maya or the illusion of maya. This Maya that fuels our Ego and is itself fuelled by Ego, makes the huge obstacle in connecting with the Lord.

All the attachments, desires and love for worldly things help enhance our EGO, the me, me, me, me, me...........This EGO is what thrives in the ILLUSION.

This Ego also convinces us that we can do this, do that, like this, like that...........it does a fantastic job giving us the Self-Will.
All this Self-Will is only existent under the Illusion of Maya.

Along with other factors, this is what defines us as Manmukh.

If we could conquer and eradicate our very own Ego, then the Illusion of Maya would disappear, thus we would be free from our misleading self-will, and be Gurmukh.

When Gurmukh, you have no will or desire to be planning and shaping for an illusion, you are in the Now and Eternity simultaneously all under the Divine Hukam.This hukam was always present but not always evident.

To become Gurmukh by completely removing Ego and experience of Maya is not easy, but the total of 1430 pages all direct us this way. Therefore, if we start trying to define how to get there, our message won't even scratch the surface that the Guru Granth Sahib Ji breaks through.

There are many references in bani that quote ''The Self-Willed Manmukhs.''
This self-will is exactly what it is and says, it's all for the interests of SELF.
This self is perceived ONLY under the illusion, Once a Gurmukh, there is NO MORE Self.

....ALL is HIS...jo kich hai so therah..

Page 1081
Guru Arjan Dev Ji
ਮਾਰੂ ਸੋਲਹੇ ਮਹਲਾ

Mārū solhe mėhlā 5

Maaroo, Solhas, Fifth Mehl:


ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ

Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:


ਤੂ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਹਉ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਕੀਤਾ

Ŧū sāhib ha▫o sevak kīṯā.

You are my Lord and Master; You have made me Your servant.


ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਤਾ

Jī▫o pind sabẖ ṯerā ḏīṯā.

My soul and body are all gifts from You.


ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਵਨ ਸਭੁ ਤੂਹੈ ਤੂਹੈ ਹੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਅਸਾੜਾ ॥੧॥

Karan karāvan sabẖ ṯūhai ṯūhai hai nāhī kicẖẖ asāṛā. ||1||

You are the Creator, the Cause of causes; nothing belongs to me. ||1||


ਤੁਮਹਿ ਪਠਾਏ ਤਾ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਆਏ

Ŧumėh paṯẖā▫e ṯā jag mėh ā▫e.

When You sent me, I came into the world.


ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਣਾ ਸੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਏ

Jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāṇā se karam kamā▫e.

Whatever is pleasing to Your Will, I do.


ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਿਛੂ ਹੋਆ ਤਾ ਭੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਾੜਾ ॥੨॥

Ŧujẖ ṯe bāhar kicẖẖū na ho▫ā ṯā bẖī nāhī kicẖẖ kāṛā. ||2||

Without You, nothing is done, so I am not anxious at all. ||2||


ਊਹਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ ਸੁਣੀਐ

Ūhā hukam ṯumārā suṇī▫ai.

In the world hereafter, the Hukam of Your Command is heard.


ਈਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਣੀਐ

Īhā har jas ṯerā bẖaṇī▫ai.

In this world, I chant Your Praises, Lord.


ਆਪੇ ਲੇਖ ਅਲੇਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਝਾੜਾ ॥੩॥

Āpe lekẖ alekẖai āpe ṯum si▫o nāhī kicẖẖ jẖāṛā. ||3||

You Yourself write the account, and You Yourself erase it; no one can argue with You. ||3||


ਤੂ ਪਿਤਾ ਸਭਿ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਥਾਰੇ

Ŧū piṯā sabẖ bārik thāre.

You are our father; we are all Your children.


ਜਿਉ ਖੇਲਾਵਹਿ ਤਿਉ ਖੇਲਣਹਾਰੇ

Ji▫o kẖelāvėh ṯi▫o kẖelaṇhāre.

We play as You cause us to play.


ਉਝੜ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਕੀਨਾ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਵੇਪਾੜਾ ॥੪॥

Ujẖaṛ mārag sabẖ ṯum hī kīnā cẖalai nāhī ko vepāṛā. ||4||

The wilderness and the path are all made by You. No one can take the wrong path. ||4||


ਇਕਿ ਬੈਸਾਇ ਰਖੇ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਅੰਤਰਿ

Ik baisā▫e rakẖe garih anṯar.

Some remain seated within their homes.


ਇਕਿ ਪਠਾਏ ਦੇਸ ਦਿਸੰਤਰਿ

Ik paṯẖā▫e ḏes disanṯar.

Some wander across the country and through foreign lands.


ਇਕ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਘਾਸੁ ਇਕ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਰਾਜਾ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਿਆ ਕੂੜਾ ॥੫॥

Ik hī ka▫o gẖās ik hī ka▫o rājā in mėh kahī▫ai ki▫ā kūṛā. ||5||

Some are grass-cutters, and some are kings. Who among these can be called false? ||5||


ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਨਰਕਾ

Kavan so mukṯī kavan so narkā.

Who is liberated, and who will land in hell?


ਕਵਨੁ ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਭਗਤਾ

Kavan saisārī kavan so bẖagṯā.

Who is worldly, and who is a devotee?


ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਦਾਨਾ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਹੋਛਾ ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਕਵਨੁ ਜੜਾ ॥੬॥

Kavan so ḏānā kavan so hocẖẖā kavan so surṯā kavan jaṛā. ||6||

Who is wise, and who is shallow? Who is aware, and who is ignorant? ||6||


ਹੁਕਮੇ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਨਰਕਾ

Hukme mukṯī hukme narkā.

By the Hukam of the Lord's Command, one is liberated, and by His Hukam, one falls into hell.


ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਭਗਤਾ

Hukam saisārī hukme bẖagṯā.

By His Hukam, one is worldly, and by His Hukam, one is a devotee.


ਹੁਕਮੇ ਹੋਛਾ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਦਾਨਾ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਧੜਾ ॥੭॥

Hukme hocẖẖā hukme ḏānā ḏūjā nāhī avar ḏẖaṛā. ||7||

By His Hukam, one is shallow, and by His Hukam, one is wise. There is no other side except His. ||7||


ਸਾਗਰੁ ਕੀਨਾ ਅਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਭਾਰਾ

Sāgar kīnā aṯ ṯum bẖārā.

You made the ocean vast and huge.


ਇਕਿ ਖੜੇ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ

Ik kẖaṛe rasāṯal kar manmukẖ gāvārā.

You made some into foolish self-willed manmukhs, and dragged them into hell.


ਇਕਨਾ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਵਹਿ ਆਪੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਚੁ ਬੇੜਾ ॥੮॥

Iknā pār langẖāvėh āpe saṯgur jin kā sacẖ beṛā. ||8||

Some are carried across, in the ship of Truth of the True Guru. ||8||


ਕਉਤਕੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਇਹੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ

Ka▫uṯak kāl ih hukam paṯẖā▫i▫ā.

You issue Your Command for this amazing thing, death.


ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਓਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਇਆ

Jī▫a janṯ opā▫e samā▫i▫ā.

You create all beings and creatures, and absorb them back into Yourself.


ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਸਭਿ ਰੰਗ ਮਾਣੇ ਰਚਨੁ ਕੀਨਾ ਇਕੁ ਆਖਾੜਾ ॥੯॥

vekẖai vigsai sabẖ rang māṇe racẖan kīnā ik ākẖāṛā. ||9||

You gaze in delight upon the one arena of the world, and enjoy all the pleasures. ||9||


ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ

vadā sāhib vadī nā▫ī.

Great is the Lord and Master, and Great is His Name.


ਵਡ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ਵਡੀ ਜਿਸੁ ਜਾਈ

vad ḏāṯār vadī jis jā▫ī.

He is the Great Giver; Great is His place.


ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅਤੋਲਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਹਾੜਾ ॥੧੦॥

Agam agocẖar be▫anṯ aṯolā hai nāhī kicẖẖ āhāṛā. ||10||

He is inaccessible and unfathomable, infinite and unweighable. He cannot be measured. ||10||


ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕੋਇ ਜਾਣੈ ਦੂਜਾ

Kīmaṯ ko▫e na jāṇai ḏūjā.

No one else knows His value.


ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਪੂਜਾ

Āpe āp niranjan pūjā.

Only You Yourself, O Immaculate Lord, are equal to Yourself.


ਆਪਿ ਸੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਧਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਸਤਵੰਤਾ ਅਤਿ ਗਾੜਾ ॥੧੧॥

Āp so gi▫ānī āp ḏẖi▫ānī āp saṯvanṯā aṯ gāṛā. ||11||

You Yourself are the spiritual teacher, You Yourself are the One who meditates. You Yourself are the great and immense Being of Truth. ||11||


ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ

Keṯ▫ṛi▫ā ḏin gupaṯ kahā▫i▫ā.

For so many days, You remained invisible.


ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ

Keṯ▫ṛi▫ā ḏin sunn samā▫i▫ā.

For so many days, You were absorbed in silent absorption.


ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਪਰਗਟੜਾ ॥੧੨॥

Keṯ▫ṛi▫ā ḏin ḏẖunḏẖūkārā āpe karṯā pargatṛā. ||12||

For so many days, there was only pitch darkness, and then the Creator revealed Himself. ||12||


ਆਪੇ ਸਕਤੀ ਸਬਲੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ

Āpe sakṯī sabal kahā▫i▫ā.

You Yourself are called the God of Supreme Power.

ਆਪੇ ਸੂਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ

Āpe sūrā amar cẖalā▫i▫ā.

You Yourself are the hero, exerting Your regal power.


ਆਪੇ ਸਿਵ ਵਰਤਾਈਅਨੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਠਾਰੁ ਗੜਾ ॥੧੩॥

Āpe siv varṯā▫ī▫an anṯar āpe sīṯal ṯẖār gaṛā. ||13||

You Yourself spread peace within; You are cool and icy calm. ||13||


ਜਿਸਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਜੇ

Jisahi nivāje gurmukẖ sāje.

One whom You bless and make Gurmukh -


ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਅਨਹਦ ਵਾਜੇ

Nām vasai ṯis anhaḏ vāje.

the Naam abides within him, and the unstruck sound current vibrates for him.


ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਠਕੁਰਾਈ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਾ ॥੧੪॥

Ŧis hī sukẖ ṯis hī ṯẖakurā▫ī ṯisėh na āvai jam neṛā. ||14||

He is peaceful, and he is the master of all; the Messenger of Death does not even approach him. ||14||


ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਾਗਦ ਕਹੀ ਜਾਈ

Kīmaṯ kāgaḏ kahī na jā▫ī.

His value cannot be described on paper.


ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਗੁਸਾਈ

Kaho Nānak be▫anṯ gusā▫ī.

Says Nanak, the Lord of the world is infinite.


ਆਦਿ ਮਧਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ ਹਾਥਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਕੈ ਨੇਬੇੜਾ ॥੧੫॥

Āḏ maḏẖ anṯ parabẖ so▫ī hāth ṯisai kai nebeṛā. ||15||

In the beginning, in the middle and in the end, God exists. judgment is in His Hands alone. ||15||


ਤਿਸਹਿ ਸਰੀਕੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਰੇ ਕੋਈ

Ŧisėh sarīk nāhī re ko▫ī.

No one is equal to Him.


ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਬੁਤੈ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਹੋਈ

Kis hī buṯai jabāb na ho▫ī.

No one can stand up against Him by any means.


ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਚੋਜ ਖੜਾ ॥੧੬॥੧॥੧੦॥

Nānak kā parabẖ āpe āpe kar kar vekẖai cẖoj kẖaṛā. ||16||1||10||

Nanak's God is Himself all-in-all. He creates and stages and watches His wondrous plays. ||16||1||10||



I think the above should give a better understanding to the questions I and many others do question from time to time.

Sat Kartar
Lucky Singh
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Luckysingh

Writer
SPNer
Dec 4, 2011
1,633
2,753
Vancouver
Hukam is also the ultimate master and governer at the very top of the chart.
Destiny, fate and free-will are ALL situated beneath this on the chart and are all part of the governing divine hukam.
 

Embers

SPNer
Aug 10, 2009
114
148
EU
What super posts, LuckySingh Ji!
I agree with you, there is something blocking us from putting 2 and 2 together. Every person is struggling or has struggled with this because that which hampers you and it also hampers each person. I see that which hampers us as Maya (ego is a part of Maya).

My view is that Maya and the ego are the creation of Sat or God. I am using Sat to try to avoid the perception of an overlord. We seem to have accepted that Sat is everything. So whilst someone is under Maya's sway they are blind to Sat. They think life is about pleasure or aversion and they think they must act to get what they want or avoid what they do not want. Consequently, like it or not, they are moved by their self-will. There is no peace of mind because they cannot see a way out other than to act in their best interest (self-will). Because Maya and ego are creation of Sat, we can then say that it is Sat's will that some are blinded and some see. For it is also Sat's will that Maya and ego can be overcome.

When a person recognises that everything is the Sat, then there is no reason to seek pleasure or avoid aversion (based on a sense of self will), both come as they are both inherent in Sat. Everything is happening including the choices they make. They no longer need to fear as everything is happening to Sat, in Sat by Sat. Even choices can be seen as Sat’s choices being made through body and mind. The body and mind is also Sat (Created by Sat).

So how does this work practically?

In my view a Gursikh goes about his or her day just as before, but the Gursikh knows that everything is Sat. Their body is Sat and can be compared to Sat's tool. Their choices are Sat, and can be compared to making choices for Sat. There can be a sensation of "I act" but it is known intuitvely that there is action and choices; some difficult, some easy, as Sat.

There is another way we can see this. When you are reading this you will hear your inner voice, similar to how you hear your voice when speaking to others aloud. That inner voice is really just memory or sound. Deluded by Maya we say "That is me thinking" when we hear the voice. Really that is thinking, and there is no me as such behind it. That doesn't imply nihilism or anatta but rather the ego is not doing the talking.

This is a very tricky topic and I hope my ideas don't complicate it further. If they do I am happy to readdress them with you all. :) Of course I would like to read your own views.
 

Luckysingh

Writer
SPNer
Dec 4, 2011
1,633
2,753
Vancouver
Sat sri akaal Embersji,
Thanks for your kind response, it is a very tricky topic indeed.
I think you have got the idea quite well !!

It makes you realise how easy it is for us manmukhs to misguide ourselves. If we try and look into other gurbani bearing this in mind, it all begins to open newer doorways !!

For Eg... just a look at '' Mann jithey jagjeet''
and you immediately realise that you can't just conquer your mind in a few steps, but it is an even more difficult process than you previously imagined. We have the whole illusion to deal with as well!!

The maya and ego are all created by the sat, as you mentioned, and they are also what makes our characters. However, this whole character and illusion gets left behind completely when one becomes gurmukh and merges with the sat.

It seems like it is all created to make us what we are or become whilst in the creation.
A little like how in bani, it mentions all the world being a huge stage of a play that is directed and under the command of Sat or Lord. The ego and maya props give all the actors their specific roles.

Even the laws of karma and physics are there to keep the illusion running.
It is such that we actors should realise where we came from and with who we were, before we merge back there for eternity. As once you do realise and become gurmukh, there is no other desire than to be back to the origin or mool.


It's been a very good and informative discussion for me.

Waheguru
 

Embers

SPNer
Aug 10, 2009
114
148
EU
...

Even the laws of karma and physics are there to keep the illusion running.
It is such that we actors should realise where we came from and with who we were, before we merge back there for eternity. As once you do realise and become gurmukh, there is no other desire than to be back to the origin or mool.


It's been a very good and informative discussion for me.

Waheguru
Sat Siri Akaal LuckySingh Ji
This is good, I haven't considered Karma to be a part of the illusion explicitly but you are right. If we accept that Karma exists then the Gursikh is living out his past karma which is still yielding results. In other words he or she will still have a body which will need to be looked after until it dies naturally.

Whilst there is a body there is still interaction with the world, or the stage. To the onlooker, the Gursikh will continue to have a personality with preferences, choices etc, but in reality the Gursikh will know that it is karma ripening. This in turn adds to the illusion and, from the Manmukh view specifically, it will appear that there is no one who is different to themselves i.e. everyone will appear to be self-willed.

It is a kind of double bind, the poor manmukh sees only self-will. This helps us to understand one view on why some manmukh do awful things to innocent people, or get irritated and angry.

This thread has been very useful for me too and has answered some of my earlier questions. Thank you.
 
Oct 21, 2009
451
895
India
The following shabad of Guru Nanak sahib expresses the helplessness of Human beings as He does everything. Man may bum around every where But only that thing will come to pass as is pleasing to Lord. What is pre-ordained comes to pass as His Command is Supreme.

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ਭਾਈ ॥
The created being acts as he is made to act; what can be said to him, O Siblings of Destiny?

ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਸੋ ਕਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਕੀਤੇ ਕਿਆ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ॥੧॥
Whatever the Lord is to do, He is doing; what cleverness could be used to affect Him? ||1||

ਤੇਰਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਭਲਾ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
The Order of Your Will is so sweet, O Lord; this is pleasing to You.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਾਈ ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
O Nanak, he alone is honored with greatness, who is absorbed in the True Name. ||1||Pause||

ਕਿਰਤੁ ਪਇਆ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
The deeds are done according to pre-ordained destiny; no one can turn back this Order.

ਜੈਸਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤੈਸਾ ਪੜਿਆ ਮੇਟਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਈ ॥੨॥
As it is written, so it comes to pass; no one can erase it. ||2||

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਦਰਗਹ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਬੋਲੈ ਨਾਉ ਪਵੈ ਬਾਜਾਰੀ ॥
He who talks on and on in the Lord's Court is known as a joker.

ਸਤਰੰਜ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਕੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਚੀ ਆਵੈ ਸਾਰੀ ॥੩॥
He is not successful in the game of chess, and his chessmen do not reach their goal. ||3||

ਨਾ ਕੋ ਪੜਿਆ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਬੀਨਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਮੰਦਾ ॥
By himself, no one is literate, learned or wise; no one is ignorant or evil.

ਬੰਦੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਕਰਾਏ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਕਹੀਐ ਬੰਦਾ ॥੪॥੨॥੩੬॥
When, as a slave, one praises the Lord, only then is he known as a human being. ||4||2||36|
 

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Shabad Vichaar by SPN'ers

lostsad.jpgThis shabad is from sri Raag, and was composed by Guru Amardas ji, on Ang 34. The translation is by Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa.

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