Dilemma For Westerners: A Second Look

[spnadmin]

Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

Again returning to the thread topic,

....The thread (started by Harbhanj24 ji) explores dilemmas encountered by "westerners" in particular one who was considering becoming adherents of Sikhism.

Aus Desi ji, With your indulgence -- You have made three very interesting observations about change. I want to turn them into questions that may continue discussion about dilemmas faced by "westerners."

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AusDesi
I think I agree with the view that its all in your mind. If you really have the will to achieve success then your religious beliefs should not matter.

Could adherence to religious beliefs provide even greater resolve and lead to greater success -- even if there were obstacles and mishaps along the way.

One of the ways you can tell its in the mind is when people from India move over to the states. Even if they don't have a turban they still feel something is holding them back. Some change their names. Some change their religions to fit in.

What is holding them back?

The problem is that they might have had a physical journey but they haven't had a inner journey.

What needs to happen in that inner journey?

They feel that a turban or a name or a religion is just an accessory that is attached with them. Anyone who realises that these things make them who they are will never change them.

Do the inner changes and the outward signs ever work in unison?

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Questions for anyone who is interested to consider. ​

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

<<Do the inner changes and the outward signs ever work in unison? >>

Guru ji state in the shabd below,

it's the inner change that matters, not outer.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
सिरीरागु महला १ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:

ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਦੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਮੁਠੀ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥
ध्रिगु जीवणु दोहागणी मुठी दूजै भाइ ॥
Ḏẖarig jīvaṇ ḏuhāgaṇī muṯẖī ḏūjai bẖā▫e.
The life of the discarded bride is cursed. She is deceived by the love of duality.

ਕਲਰ ਕੇਰੀ ਕੰਧ ਜਿਉ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਕਿਰਿ ਢਹਿ ਪਾਇ ॥
कलर केरी कंध जिउ अहिनिसि किरि ढहि पाइ ॥
Kalar kerī kanḏẖ ji▫o ahinis kir dẖėh pā▫e.
Like a wall of sand, day and night, she crumbles, and eventually, she breaks down altogether.

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਬਦੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਨਾ ਥੀਐ ਪਿਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥
बिनु सबदै सुखु ना थीऐ पिर बिनु दूखु न जाइ ॥१॥
Bin sabḏai sukẖ nā thī▫ai pir bin ḏūkẖ na jā▫e. ||1||
Without the Word of the Shabad, peace does not come. Without her Husband Lord, her suffering does not end. ||1||

ਮੁੰਧੇ ਪਿਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਆ ਸੀਗਾਰੁ ॥
मुंधे पिर बिनु किआ सीगारु ॥
Munḏẖe pir bin ki▫ā sīgār.
O soul-bride, without your Husband Lord, what good are your decorations?


ਦਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਢੋਈ ਨ ਲਹੈ ਦਰਗਹ ਝੂਠੁ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
दरि घरि ढोई न लहै दरगह झूठु खुआरु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ḏar gẖar dẖo▫ī na lahai ḏargėh jẖūṯẖ kẖu▫ār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
In this world, you shall not find any shelter; in the world hereafter, being false, you shall suffer. ||1||Pause||

ਆਪਿ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਭੁਲਈ ਸਚਾ ਵਡ ਕਿਰਸਾਣੁ ॥
आपि सुजाणु न भुलई सचा वड किरसाणु ॥
Āp sujāṇ na bẖul▫ī sacẖā vad kirsāṇ.
The True Lord Himself knows all; He makes no mistakes. He is the Great Farmer of the Universe.

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਧਰਤੀ ਸਾਧਿ ਕੈ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇ ਦਾਣੁ ॥
पहिला धरती साधि कै सचु नामु दे दाणु ॥
Pahilā ḏẖarṯī sāḏẖ kai sacẖ nām ḏe ḏāṇ.
First, He prepares the ground, and then He plants the Seed of the True Name.

ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਉਪਜੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਏਕੁ ਕਰਮਿ ਪਵੈ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥੨॥
नउ निधि उपजै नामु एकु करमि पवै नीसाणु ॥२॥
Na▫o niḏẖ upjai nām ek karam pavai nīsāṇ. ||2||
The nine treasures are produced from Name of the One Lord. By His Grace, we obtain His Banner and Insignia. ||2||

ਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਜਾਣਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਈ ਕਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਚਜੁ ਅਚਾਰੁ ॥
गुर कउ जाणि न जाणई किआ तिसु चजु अचारु ॥
Gur ka▫o jāṇ na jāṇ▫ī ki▫ā ṯis cẖaj acẖār.
Some are very knowledgeable, but if they do not know the Guru, then what is the use of their lives?

ਅੰਧੁਲੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਧ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥
अंधुलै नामु विसारिआ मनमुखि अंध गुबारु ॥
Anḏẖulai nām visāri▫ā manmukẖ anḏẖ gubār.
The blind have forgotten the Naam, the Name of the Lord. The self-willed manmukhs are in utter darkness.

ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥੩॥
आवणु जाणु न चुकई मरि जनमै होइ खुआरु ॥३॥
Āvaṇ jāṇ na cẖuk▫ī mar janmai ho▫e kẖu▫ār. ||3||
Their comings and goings in reincarnation do not end; through death and rebirth, they are wasting away. ||3||

ਚੰਦਨੁ ਮੋਲਿ ਅਣਾਇਆ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਮਾਂਗ ਸੰਧੂਰੁ ॥
चंदनु मोलि अणाइआ कुंगू मांग संधूरु ॥
Cẖanḏan mol aṇā▫i▫ā kungū māʼng sanḏẖūr.
The bride may buy sandalwood oil and perfumes, and apply them in great quantities to her hair;

ਚੋਆ ਚੰਦਨੁ ਬਹੁ ਘਣਾ ਪਾਨਾ ਨਾਲਿ ਕਪੂਰੁ ॥
चोआ चंदनु बहु घणा पाना नालि कपूरु ॥
Cẖo▫ā cẖanḏan baho gẖaṇā pānā nāl kapūr.
she may sweeten her breath with betel leaf and camphor,

ਜੇ ਧਨ ਕੰਤਿ ਨ ਭਾਵਈ ਤ ਸਭਿ ਅਡੰਬਰ ਕੂੜੁ ॥੪॥
जे धन कंति न भावई त सभि अड्मबर कूड़ु ॥४॥
Je ḏẖan kanṯ na bẖāv▫ī ṯa sabẖ adambar kūṛ. ||4||
but if this bride is not pleasing to her Husband Lord, then all these trappings are false. ||4||

ਸਭਿ ਰਸ ਭੋਗਣ ਬਾਦਿ ਹਹਿ ਸਭਿ ਸੀਗਾਰ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥
सभि रस भोगण बादि हहि सभि सीगार विकार ॥
Sabẖ ras bẖogaṇ bāḏ hėh sabẖ sīgār vikār.
Her enjoyment of all pleasures is futile, and all her decorations are corrupt.

ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਭੇਦੀਐ ਕਿਉ ਸੋਹੈ ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰਿ ॥
जब लगु सबदि न भेदीऐ किउ सोहै गुरदुआरि ॥
Jab lag sabaḏ na bẖeḏī▫ai ki▫o sohai gurḏu▫ār.
Until she has been pierced through with the Shabad, how can she look beautiful at Guru's Gate?

ਨਾਨਕ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ ਸਹ ਨਾਲਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥੫॥੧੩॥
नानक धंनु सुहागणी जिन सह नालि पिआरु ॥५॥१३॥
Nānak ḏẖan suhāgaṇī jin sah nāl pi▫ār. ||5||13||
O Nanak, blessed is that fortunate bride, who is in love with her Husband Lord. ||5||13||

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

<What needs to happen in that inner journey? >

Guru ji say


ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲੁ ੧ ॥
सिरीरागु महलु १ ॥
Sirīrāg mahal 1.
Siree Raag, First Mehl:

ਜਾਲਿ ਮੋਹੁ ਘਸਿ ਮਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਤਿ ਕਾਗਦੁ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
जालि मोहु घसि मसु करि मति कागदु करि सारु ॥
Jāl moh gẖas mas kar maṯ kāgaḏ kar sār.
Burn emotional attachment, and grind it into ink. Transform your intelligence into the purest of paper.

ਭਾਉ ਕਲਮ ਕਰਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਲੇਖਾਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਪੁਛਿ ਲਿਖੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
भाउ कलम करि चितु लेखारी गुर पुछि लिखु बीचारु ॥
Bẖā▫o kalam kar cẖiṯ lekẖārī gur pucẖẖ likẖ bīcẖār.
Make the love of the Lord your pen, and let your consciousness be the scribe. Then, seek the Guru's Instructions, and record these deliberations.

ਲਿਖੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਲਿਖੁ ਲਿਖੁ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
लिखु नामु सालाह लिखु लिखु अंतु न पारावारु ॥१॥
Likẖ nām sālāh likẖ likẖ anṯ na pārāvār. ||1||
Write the Praises of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; write over and over again that He has no end or limitation. ||1||

ਬਾਬਾ ਏਹੁ ਲੇਖਾ ਲਿਖਿ ਜਾਣੁ ॥
बाबा एहु लेखा लिखि जाणु ॥
Bābā ehu lekẖā likẖ jāṇ.
O Baba, write such an account,

ਜਿਥੈ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੀਐ ਤਿਥੈ ਹੋਇ ਸਚਾ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जिथै लेखा मंगीऐ तिथै होइ सचा नीसाणु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jithai lekẖā mangī▫ai ṯithai ho▫e sacẖā nīsāṇ. ||1|| rahā▫o.
that when it is asked for, it will bring the Mark of Truth. ||1||Pause||

ਜਿਥੈ ਮਿਲਹਿ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਸਦ ਖੁਸੀਆ ਸਦ ਚਾਉ ॥
जिथै मिलहि वडिआईआ सद खुसीआ सद चाउ ॥
Jithai milėh vaḏi▫ā▫ī▫ā saḏ kẖusī▫ā saḏ cẖā▫o.
There, where greatness, eternal peace and everlasting joy are bestowed,

ਤਿਨ ਮੁਖਿ ਟਿਕੇ ਨਿਕਲਹਿ ਜਿਨ ਮਨਿ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
तिन मुखि टिके निकलहि जिन मनि सचा नाउ ॥
Ŧin mukẖ tike niklahi jin man sacẖā nā▫o.
the faces of those whose minds are attuned to the True Name are anointed with the Mark of Grace.

ਕਰਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਗਲੀ ਵਾਉ ਦੁਆਉ ॥੨॥
करमि मिलै ता पाईऐ नाही गली वाउ दुआउ ॥२॥
Karam milai ṯā pā▫ī▫ai nāhī galī vā▫o ḏu▫ā▫o. ||2||
If one receives God's Grace, then such honors are received, and not by mere words. ||2||

ਇਕਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਉਠਿ ਰਖੀਅਹਿ ਨਾਵ ਸਲਾਰ ॥
इकि आवहि इकि जाहि उठि रखीअहि नाव सलार ॥
Ik āvahi ik jāhi uṯẖ rakẖī▫ahi nāv salār.
Some come, and some arise and depart. They give themselves lofty names.

ਇਕਿ ਉਪਾਏ ਮੰਗਤੇ ਇਕਨਾ ਵਡੇ ਦਰਵਾਰ ॥
इकि उपाए मंगते इकना वडे दरवार ॥
Ik upā▫e mangṯe iknā vade ḏarvār.
Some are born beggars, and some hold vast courts.

ਅਗੈ ਗਇਆ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਵੇਕਾਰ ॥੩॥
अगै गइआ जाणीऐ विणु नावै वेकार ॥३॥
Agai ga▫i▫ā jāṇī▫ai viṇ nāvai vekār. ||3||
Going to the world hereafter, everyone shall realize that without the Name, it is all useless. ||3||

ਭੈ ਤੇਰੈ ਡਰੁ ਅਗਲਾ ਖਪਿ ਖਪਿ ਛਿਜੈ ਦੇਹ ॥
भै तेरै डरु अगला खपि खपि छिजै देह ॥
Bẖai ṯerai dar aglā kẖap kẖap cẖẖijai ḏeh.
I am terrified by the Fear of You, God. Bothered and bewildered, my body is wasting away.

ਨਾਵ ਜਿਨਾ ਸੁਲਤਾਨ ਖਾਨ ਹੋਦੇ ਡਿਠੇ ਖੇਹ ॥
नाव जिना सुलतान खान होदे डिठे खेह ॥
Nāv jinā sulṯān kẖān hoḏe diṯẖe kẖeh.
Those who are known as sultans and emperors shall be reduced to dust in the end.

ਨਾਨਕ ਉਠੀ ਚਲਿਆ ਸਭਿ ਕੂੜੇ ਤੁਟੇ ਨੇਹ ॥੪॥੬॥
नानक उठी चलिआ सभि कूड़े तुटे नेह ॥४॥६॥
Nānak uṯẖī cẖali▫ā sabẖ kūṛe ṯute neh. ||4||6||
O Nanak, arising and departing, all false attachments are cut away. ||4||6||

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

continuing the previous post

what does the journey involve:

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
आसा महला ५ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 5.
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:

ਤੀਰਥਿ ਜਾਉ ਤ ਹਉ ਹਉ ਕਰਤੇ ॥
तीरथि जाउ त हउ हउ करते ॥
Ŧirath jā▫o ṯa ha▫o ha▫o karṯe.
Journeying to sacred shrines of pilgrimage, I see the mortals acting in ego.

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੂਛਉ ਤ ਮਾਇਆ ਰਾਤੇ ॥੧॥
पंडित पूछउ त माइआ राते ॥१॥
Pandiṯ pūcẖẖa▫o ṯa mā▫i▫ā rāṯe. ||1||
If I ask the Pandits, I find them tainted by Maya. ||1||

ਸੋ ਅਸਥਾਨੁ ਬਤਾਵਹੁ ਮੀਤਾ ॥
सो असथानु बतावहु मीता ॥
So asthān baṯāvhu mīṯā.
Show me that place, O friend,

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਨੀਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जा कै हरि हरि कीरतनु नीता ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jā kai har har kīrṯan nīṯā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
where the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises are forever sung. ||1||Pause||

ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥
सासत्र बेद पाप पुंन वीचार ॥
Sāsṯar beḏ pāp punn vīcẖār.
The Shaastras and the Vedas speak of sin and virtue;

ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਅਉਤਾਰ ॥੨॥
नरकि सुरगि फिरि फिरि अउतार ॥२॥
Narak surag fir fir a▫uṯār. ||2||
they say that mortals are reincarnated into heaven and hell, over and over again. ||2||

ਗਿਰਸਤ ਮਹਿ ਚਿੰਤ ਉਦਾਸ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ॥
गिरसत महि चिंत उदास अहंकार ॥
Girsaṯ mėh cẖinṯ uḏās ahaʼnkār.
In the householder's life, there is anxiety, and in the life of the renunciate, there is egotism.

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਜੀਅ ਕਉ ਜੰਜਾਰ ॥੩॥
करम करत जीअ कउ जंजार ॥३॥
Karam karaṯ jī▫a ka▫o janjār. ||3||
Performing religious rituals, the soul is entangled. ||3||

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਮਨੁ ਵਸਿ ਆਇਆ ॥
प्रभ किरपा ते मनु वसि आइआ ॥
Parabẖ kirpā ṯe man vas ā▫i▫ā.
By God's Grace, the mind is brought under control;

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤਰੀ ਤਿਨਿ ਮਾਇਆ ॥੪॥
नानक गुरमुखि तरी तिनि माइआ ॥४॥
Nānak gurmukẖ ṯarī ṯin mā▫i▫ā. ||4||
O Nanak, the Gurmukh crosses over the ocean of Maya. ||4||

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਈਐ ॥
साधसंगि हरि कीरतनु गाईऐ ॥
Sāḏẖsang har kīrṯan gā▫ī▫ai.
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, sing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises.

ਇਹੁ ਅਸਥਾਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੭॥੫੮॥
इहु असथानु गुरू ते पाईऐ ॥१॥ रहाउ दूजा ॥७॥५८॥
Ih asthān gurū ṯe pā▫ī▫ai. ||1|| rahā▫o ḏūjā. ||7||58||
This place is found through the Guru. ||1||Second. Pause||7||58||

 

[Archived_Member_19]

Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

and once you start


ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
गउड़ी महला १ ॥
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 1.
Gauree, First Mehl:

ਪਉਣੈ ਪਾਣੀ ਅਗਨੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥
पउणै पाणी अगनी का मेलु ॥
Pa▫uṇai pāṇī agnī kā mel.
The union of air, water and fire -

ਚੰਚਲ ਚਪਲ ਬੁਧਿ ਕਾ ਖੇਲੁ ॥
चंचल चपल बुधि का खेलु ॥
Cẖancẖal cẖapal buḏẖ kā kẖel.
the body is the play-thing of the fickle and unsteady intellect.

ਨਉ ਦਰਵਾਜੇ ਦਸਵਾ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
नउ दरवाजे दसवा दुआरु ॥
Na▫o ḏarvāje ḏasvā ḏu▫ār.
It has nine doors, and then there is the Tenth Gate.

ਬੁਝੁ ਰੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਏਹੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
बुझु रे गिआनी एहु बीचारु ॥१॥
Bujẖ re gi▫ānī ehu bīcẖār. ||1||
Reflect upon this and understand it, O wise one. ||1||

ਕਥਤਾ ਬਕਤਾ ਸੁਨਤਾ ਸੋਈ ॥
कथता बकता सुनता सोई ॥
Kathṯā bakṯā sunṯā so▫ī.
The Lord is the One who speaks, teaches and listens.

ਆਪੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ਸੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
आपु बीचारे सु गिआनी होई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Āp bīcẖāre so gi▫ānī ho▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
One who contemplates his own self is truly wise. ||1||Pause||

ਦੇਹੀ ਮਾਟੀ ਬੋਲੈ ਪਉਣੁ ॥
देही माटी बोलै पउणु ॥
Ḏehī mātī bolai pa▫uṇ.
The body is dust; the wind speaks through it.

ਬੁਝੁ ਰੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਮੂਆ ਹੈ ਕਉਣੁ ॥
बुझु रे गिआनी मूआ है कउणु ॥
Bujẖ re gi▫ānī mū▫ā hai ka▫uṇ.
Understand, O wise one, who has died.

ਮੂਈ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਬਾਦੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ॥
मूई सुरति बादु अहंकारु ॥
Mū▫ī suraṯ bāḏ ahaʼnkār.
Awareness, conflict and ego have died,

ਓਹੁ ਨ ਮੂਆ ਜੋ ਦੇਖਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
ओहु न मूआ जो देखणहारु ॥२॥
Oh na mū▫ā jo ḏekẖaṇhār. ||2||
but the One who sees does not die. ||2||

ਜੈ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਤਟਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਜਾਹੀ ॥
जै कारणि तटि तीरथ जाही ॥
Jai kāraṇ ṯat ṯirath jāhī.
For the sake of it, you journey to sacred shrines and holy rivers;

ਰਤਨ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਘਟ ਹੀ ਮਾਹੀ ॥
रतन पदारथ घट ही माही ॥
Raṯan paḏārath gẖat hī māhī.
but this priceless jewel is within your own heart.

ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਬਾਦੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥
पड़ि पड़ि पंडितु बादु वखाणै ॥
Paṛ paṛ pandiṯ bāḏ vakẖāṇai.
The Pandits, the religious scholars, read and read endlessly; they stir up arguments and controversies,

ਭੀਤਰਿ ਹੋਦੀ ਵਸਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ॥੩॥
भीतरि होदी वसतु न जाणै ॥३॥
Bẖīṯar hoḏī vasaṯ na jāṇai. ||3||
but they do not know the secret deep within. ||3||

ਹਉ ਨ ਮੂਆ ਮੇਰੀ ਮੁਈ ਬਲਾਇ ॥
हउ न मूआ मेरी मुई बलाइ ॥
Ha▫o na mū▫ā merī mu▫ī balā▫e.
I have not died - that evil nature within me has died.

ਓਹੁ ਨ ਮੂਆ ਜੋ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥
ओहु न मूआ जो रहिआ समाइ ॥
Oh na mū▫ā jo rahi▫ā samā▫e.
The One who is pervading everywhere does not die.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥
कहु नानक गुरि ब्रहमु दिखाइआ ॥
Kaho Nānak gur barahm ḏikẖā▫i▫ā.
Says Nanak, the Guru has revealed God to me,

ਮਰਤਾ ਜਾਤਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥੪॥੪॥
मरता जाता नदरि न आइआ ॥४॥४॥
Marṯā jāṯā naḏar na ā▫i▫ā. ||4||4||
and now I see that there is no such thing as birth or death. ||4||4||

 

[AusDesi]

Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

I'll try to answer some of the questions.


Could adherence to religious beliefs provide even greater resolve and lead to greater success -- even if there were obstacles and mishaps along the way.
Now I could take the easy way out here and say yes religious people are stronger. However, knowing a fair few Atheists I think I disagree. They are just as strong as religious people because they have nothing to turn to.

However, it could be claimed that Atheism itself is a belief. So I guess beliefs make us stronger to tackle obstacles.

What is holding them back?
Well its not an actual thing. its their feeling. Immigrants usually feel that they are not getting the same opportunities. Then that leads to a conclusion as to why they are not getting the same opportunities.

Someone might say its because of the turban. Someone might say its their language skills. Someone might say its their name.

However, there could be legitimate racism like Apartheid or 'Irish need not apply' but its quite rare in western countries these days.

The problem is that they might have had a physical journey but they haven't had a inner journey.

What needs to happen in that inner journey?

An inner journey is basically a way of us to understand ourselves. Most people will change during an inner journey. Changing of beliefs usually happen whether they are religious, ideological or moral.

There are many films on this subject. Ali, American History X.

One of the best films on inner change/journey i've seen is Rang De Basanti. How a group of modern youth change seeing the sacrifice and beliefs of an older generation.

Do the inner changes and the outward signs ever work in unison?
I am not sure what that question is alluding to. What outward signs supposed to mean.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

Huck_Finn ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for posting the Shabads. I admire your copy and paste skills. But, unfortunately your copied and pasted stuff is literal translation, not interpretation with your own thoughts. The fact is that you have posted the copied and pasted Shabads so you must have something in your mind that you are trying to convey. I would like you to interpret each Shabad in your own words in your own unique way( you did mention that you have a unique way of expressing yourself ), so we can all learn how these Shabads have influenced you in your journey and how you are affected by them.

As you may also be very well aware that most of the literal translations are incorrect and at times misleading, hence they will not be able to express what you true thought process is about them. Sikhi is all about sharing and thanks for doing that. I do appreciate it.

Hope to hear from you.

Tejwant Singh

 

[spnadmin]

Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

Aus Desi ji

Thank you for persisting with the threaded conversation. it is interesting that you and I have a somewhat different take on the quesiton Dilemma for Westerners?

You are approaching the question in terms of a dilemma for those who immigrate to "western" societies. Reflecting on the problems that they face as immigrants having to 'fit in" to western norms.

I am thinking of the question as the dilemma of "westerners" who want to adapt to an "eastern" religion and the problems that they have fitting in.

It is really strange that we are coming from two opposing directions in the discussion given the first article is about problems of a westerner converting to Sikhism. BUT -- think. If we are coming from two opposing directions --- and we meet in the middle -- would we come up with a list that describes these problems of east and west as dilemmas that are common to all. If that happened, then WoW! we would have the diagnosis! Would it make a cure easier to understand and closer in reach? I don't know but sure would like to try.

 

[liberate]

Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

Ultimately, being a Sikh is about a state of mind of purity and devotion to God. Outward appearance does not determine what the intention of the person is. Devotion to God and compassion is what Sikhism is about. There are plenty of clean shaven Punjabi Sikhs who are devoted followers of the Sikh teachings. Not all have the outward appearance. Whilst for some believers this is essential, for others, not so. Any Gudwara will accept you if they are genuinely following the Sikh creed.

It is a wonderful path that you are embarking upon and good luck and blessings.

 

[Archived_Member_19]

let me try and break up the dilemma into individual questions:

<<<<<Having been a former Catholic who left that religion in my early teens for reasons I won't get into here, and having lived as an atheist for over 20 years, I have had very strong 'spiritual awakening' over the last two years. I've been studying comparative religion intensely for longer than that, and feel an emotional and strong connection with Sikhism.
Dilemma(pls. don't be offended): Sikhism seems the most paradoxical of all religions in that, on the one hand, it's remarkable for it's reverence for and pursuit of Truth, logic, reason, practicality, and has no conflict with science, equality for women, etc. It's not pacifistic, which is congruent with it's foundation in reality. I find it both amazingly spiritual, compassionate , and also cool-headed and ready to fight when necessary.. yes! Now -- on the other hand, from the non-Indian perspective: like too many religions, it's extremely ethnic and region-centric. Punjabi is a necessity to participate in Gurbani/Kirtan. Lacking monks and clergy, it's disorganized and lacking political direction or power. Keeping the 5 'K's is an example of 'ethnic and region centric ritual and tradition. It seems, to the Westerner, an anachronism similar to the costume and appearance of Orthodox Jews, American Amish (German origin Protestant Christians stuck in the 16th century living in Pennsylvania..), for example.

Can I become Sikh and raise my American family as Sikh, following Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and finding a local Gurdwara that will accept clean-shaven Sikhs? Do I and my family have to 'become' 18th century Punjabi in appearance.. to avoid discrimination by other Sikhs?? This is a real dilemma, pls. do not dismiss lightly.. didn't one of your Gurus predict over 900 million Khalsa one day.. but how will Sikhism grow and be 'universal' if it clings to rituals and traditions that are unacceptable to the vast majority of non-Indians. This is serious questions, pls. don't be offended. God bless you for reading this far.>>>>>>>>>

1. Need to learn Punjabi to understand Gurbani - The question is that why it has not been made accessible to all in as many languages as possible.

Very valid concern and should be addressed. The True Nectar is drowned by the propaganda machines and should reach as many people as possible.

2. Ethnic domination of Punjabis - Most of the Rituals in the Sikhism that we see in daily life are heavily influenced by Punjabi culture. Punjabi language gives them a natural headstart and in many cases a misplaced sense of superiority that often comes out as condenscending behavior.

This is a very valid dilemma, how can someone on connect to the true message when it is kept hidden by layers and layers of ethnic and cultural rituals.

3. 5 K - this is a highly debatable topic. Some have opinion that 5 K should be taken in spirit and some say in form. should a nepali sikh keep a kirpan or khukhri?

4. Accessories to 5 K - along with the 5K there are many accessories that tag along. Turban is one of them. Salwar suits and other punjabi dresses are others. Though dresses are less of an hindrance, why can't a British Sikh wear a hat to cover his hair?

Is it anachronism - maybe not because it's still contemporary wear in punjab, however it certainly is heavily region centric.

These find no reference in the SGGS yet are fanatically defended by the orthodoxy. This dilemma is aimed more towards the behavior and opinion of the orthodoxy in Sikhism.

5. Fear of discrimination - combined with the above, attitude towards sikhs who do not maintain external symbols is a valid dilemma for a person who is not born and brought up in the environment where he/she had a lot of exposure to sikhs.

liberate ji has put the answer to last point really well.

 

[harbansj24]

Re: Dilemma for Westerners?

liberate ji,

May be you are right for for the UK or American situation because there no one is concerned about your religious beliefs. It is strictly treated as your personal affair.

Here in India since mid 90s there is no discrimination against Sikhs either social or in the statute. In fact sometimes you given you are given more than your share of consideration which may be embarrassing.

But lurking behind this is a desire to bring you as they see it into "The mainstream". People will praise the ten gurus, Granth Sahib, "the hard working, honest and jovial nature of the Sikhs". But with all this they also chat you up on how Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion and that you are a Hindu just by being a citizen of India and that Hinduism permits you to follow your own personal faith etc. For any inaugural function it becomes necessary to break a coconut, light a lamp and recite either Vande Matram or gayatri mantra. Then a tikka is applied very lovingly on your forehead.

Of co{censored} they will happily participate on all the Gurudwara functions. Get you official patronages etc. But in one of his famous speaches Vajpayee as Prime Minister quoted Guru Gobind Singh's famous verse "De Shiva Var Mohe........". He then went on to translate it as "Oh lord Shiva please grant me your blessings....!"

It is through such subtle actions, we find that a large number of Sikhs in India especially in Punjab have shorn of their hair, go to Hindu temples, Hindu places of pilgrimages and even follow their superstitions but still proclaim themselves as Sikhs. The rural Punjab has been practically lost to Sikhism. More than half of urban Punjab has also been lost.

It is for this reason that atleast in India, Sikhs need to keep a separate identity.

So why do I talk about this in a article meant for Western Sikhs?
Firstly because I do not know if it is possible to have one set of rules for Western Sikhs and another for Indian Sikhs and secondly also because liberate ji has not talked about the problems of Western sikhs in particular.

Ofco{censored} it is possible to follow Sikh philosophy without keepimg kesh but then they will just like Sehajdhari Sikhs in India. There is no restriction on anyone of whatever faith or caste or appearence from entering and taking part in a gurudwara function.

 

[Ozarks]

Sat Sri Akaal
It has been a while since I have weighed in on anything. I've been seeking and understanding more everyday and time tends to slip by. With that said I think I would like to jump in a bit on this one.

The truth is Waheguru does not care about your hair, your clothes, your jewelry or such. It is the condition within, and your actions without, that draw the attention of Waheguru.

When concerning yourself with "membership requirements" of any group you are seeking their approval and acceptance. If that is what is important I would say that a Western Sikh (maybe there should be a term "Western Sikh" instead of "White Sikh") should adopt the traditional styles that are popular or orthodox to the Sikh community at large. And should not worry about the opinions of others. This in spite of the fact that you are concerned with the opinions of others. In this case it is the opinions with those you would identify yourself with instead of your work/friend/school peers.

Even then there is an odd bit of what is what with the 5 Ks. All of these are well known but I'm on a roll and your still reading so I will elaborate.
1. Kesh - The biggie. It seems like that is the biggest hangup with some people. Why? That is a good question. It stems from some allegorical lines in the SGGS that are taken as literal. There is a bit of intentional separation here from some Hindus.
2. Kanga - This is not only to tend to the Kesh, but is to show care for your appearance. As a social creature you should not look like a wild one. There is a bit of intentional separation here again from some Hindus.
3. Kara - A reminder of your (slave like) devotion to God (and God's Will) and a reminder to do good with your hands. Over all not a bad thing and one of the easiest of the 5 Ks.
4. Kachera - Basically underwear (hardcore will go old school in style). No big deal here. Must have been a bigger deal when fewer people were wearing underwear.
5. The Kirpan - My favorite. This one has some otherwise traditional Sikhs saying it "represents..." and can be a fancy butter knife basically. I think that is funny. Of all the Ks it is the one that makes the most sense and yet is sometimes marginalized as being simply symbolic. It is the "Hand of Mercy". When carrying the kirpan it is your duty to stand up for those who are being taken advantage of. You are the Hand of God protecting the helpless and afraid. On a tv show I use to watch a character said that Karma doesn't have hands so sometimes we have to be the hands of Karma. (paraphrased)
What I like about the Kirpan is alluded to in the Bible. Jesus said to turn the other cheek. That was against ego. However he also said if you don't have a sword, buy one. That is to avoid being a victim. And its presence promotes Ahimsa.

With all that being said a true Sikh follows Waheguru to the best of their ever continuing understanding and should not worry overly much about rules and committees setup to make rules and committees. Do not worry about those who do not accept you for who you are because ultimately it is not their approval you should seek.

Sat Nam

 

[Ozarks]

A small side question stemming from my post to satisfy my curiosity: Would "Laindha Sikh" mean "Western Sikh"?

 

[spnadmin]

Ozarks ji

You asked this question: A small side question stemming from my post to satisfy my curiosity: Would "Laindha Sikh" mean "Western Sikh"?

Answer: west n. laindha pasa. M; lahinda. M; west a. laindha; (from the ijunoon punjabi/english/urdu online dictionary)

You may have noticed how wild phonetic spellings used on the net really can make it next to impossible to learn Punjabi just by interacting with native speakers of the language. So get a good dictionary for now and take lessons from a qualified teacher of languages later if you decide that is what you want to do.

 

[Randip Singh]

Now -- on the other hand, from the non-Indian perspective: like too many religions, it's extremely ethnic and region-centric. Punjabi is a necessity to participate in Gurbani/Kirtan. Lacking monks and clergy, it's disorganized and lacking political direction or power. Keeping the 5 'K's is an example of 'ethnic and region centric ritual and tradition. It seems, to the Westerner, an anachronism similar to the costume and appearance of Orthodox Jews, American Amish (German origin Protestant Christians stuck in the 16th century living in Pennsylvania..), for example.

I'm a strong believer in that we need to change all this, and need to accept Sikhs at all stages of development. The Jews are a great example of this.

There are many facets of the Rehat Maryad (Sikh Code of Conduct) that are not compatible (if analysed literally) with modern living.

If you analyse the Rehat Maryada and see how much it has developed over centuries, I see no reason why it cannot develop.

Fact is, if we do not accept that Sikhs have a range of appearances and ways of living we will be releagte to yesteryear.

We need some core beliefs and people need to build on those.

 

[Gora_pakora]

Can see this topic ended a while back. But if the original blogger is serious about reading more on Sikhi, all you need to do is type in white sikh into youtube and you will get beautiful videos of white and black families from all around the world who have embraced this way of live.

 

[Admin]

YouTube - BBC 2 Doc - American Sikhs & Yogi Ji

YouTube - Black African Sikh Brother

:happykaur::happysingh:

 

[Satyaban]

Namaste

I have been away because I have been very sick but am now clawing my way back.


Of course I am not a Sikh but for a reason I can't put my figure on I find the term "white Sikhs" distasteful. I don't think there are any mind readers here but perhaps someone with a different perspective could help my understanding this and change how I react to the term.

What if there were Chinese Sikhs would they be called "slant eyed Sikhs" or what. Why not just call everyone "Sikhs".

Peace
Satyaban

 

[spnadmin]

Satyaban ji

So glad you have returned. I thought you were involved in a big project at work and were too overworked to post here.

I share you feelings about the term "white Sikh" but not because I find it distasteful as I find it confusing.

It can't be about the wearing of whiite bana, though I suspect that is how it started. With Yogi Bhajan and Western Dharma - now Dharma International.

The problem for me is that it leaves Sikhs who are not Indian, but come from all over the world, as you say even China, maybe Japan, out on the margins. There are white Sikhs and ????? Sikhs ????? People from India are tan Sikhs I suppose. What about the jazz pianist Dr. Lonnie Smith, who is African American, a Sikh, and not a member of 3HO? Where does he fit in. Is he a black Sikh?

I wrote a too long post about this issue a few months ago. Don't worry -- it won't make any difference.

 

[spnadmin]

Here it is
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/26124-who-are-the-white-sikhs.html