Opinion Definition Of Diety, Human Form, God And Waheguru

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Personally, I feel the numeral 1 was used to avoid ambiguity.
...within the wider framework of the meaning 1, yes.
Professor Kahn Singh Nabha likens Oankar to Om.
..again yes, Om [A U M] is made up of the 3, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. And, Baba Nanak wanted to depart from the traditional concept of OM to give it both independent existence and a quality [perfect]. But, where OM is sound [history: when all creation is at rest there is ONE sound, OM], Gur Ghar predicated it with Ek [1] Om [sound] kar [eternal]. Removed it completely from having attributes. Gur Ghar kept the ideology of the Brahm as the primary cause and through out Gurbani it has been epitomised.
The full term is Ekankar Oankar. These two constituent terms are discussed separately in Gurbani. Ekankar is the nirgun aspect. Oankar is the sargun aspect. From Ekankar comes Oankar. Through the latter, creation is manifest, sustained and ultimately dissipated.
..reference or source would be appreciated, if you cud !
It is the Oankar that reverberates through everything as the Dunn, Anhaad Naad, Shabadh.
..mahalla 5, page 290 SGGSJ
Sat (Existence / Reality) encompasses both sides of the same coin (Ekankar and Oankar). This reality is its own name, not to be confused with Naam jap, which is but one aspect of Naam Simran.
...naam, shabd, ikonkar, amrit, narinkar, akal purakh are not only synonmous but interchangeable in Sikh Theology. Naam Simran, in its literal meaning is simply, remembrance of God.
We don't need to turn this into a faith vs knowledge debate.
...its an important observation because belief and knowledge are two distinct areas of rational reasoning where the former is wholly soley within the faith of the individual the latter, property of rationality and emperical experimentaion. For argument sake, one can ask for evidence of such phenonmena.
Conceptualization of the terminology employed in the mool mantar serves to answer the question at hand:
...correct !
Do the terms "deity" and "being" accurately describe the Divine in Sikh philosophy? My answer is no.
...again, bang on ! But what to do when asked to communicate of the same to as many as possible people. Without language we'd struggle to exchange ideas or influence other people's behaviour. Human society as we know it would not exist. I'm mindful of the univesal message of Gurbani and the likes of HKJ and much more to have all, if not more rights to interpret the word of God through their own local dialect, caution must be had to its doctrinal and ideological significance. Of course, the difficulty in keeping the letter and the spirit of Gur Ghar intact is definitely challanging, but not impossible.

If Baba Nanak was asked about deity n being he'd probably dismiss it on account, "what isn't Waheguru ?".

Goodnight !
 
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Ishna

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The full term is Ekankar Oankar. These two constituent terms are discussed separately in Gurbani. Ekankar is the nirgun aspect. Oankar is the sargun aspect. From Ekankar comes Oankar. Through the latter, creation is manifest, sustained and ultimately dissipated.

Oohh yes, can you point us to further information about this, please? Most interested, thank you :)
 

Harkiran Kaur

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Slightly off topic for a min... Just an observation. Did u ever hear of the group who calls themselves Eckankar? It's got elements of sant mat and radhasoami with some Sikh terminology thrown in. They focus on 'sound' as a means to access """God""" or the divine or whatever we want to call it. So they have something similar to simran concept. Anyway I read something about them recently and how they stole aspects from Sikhi including the name... Okay end off topic haha
 

Ishna

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SPNer
Slightly off topic for a min... Just an observation. Did u ever hear of the group who calls themselves Eckankar? It's got elements of sant mat and radhasoami with some Sikh terminology thrown in. They focus on 'sound' as a means to access """God""" or the divine or whatever we want to call it. So they have something similar to simran concept. Anyway I read something about them recently and how they stole aspects from Sikhi including the name... Okay end off topic haha

In my early Sikh days I saw this group with a stand at a Body, Mind & Psychic fair. They had a gent with a turban handing out pamphlets. I got excited. Then realised it's not actually Sikhi.
 

Sherdil

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..again yes, Om [A U M] is made up of the 3, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. And, Baba Nanak wanted to depart from the traditional concept of OM to give it both independent existence and a quality [perfect]. But, where OM is sound [history: when all creation is at rest there is ONE sound, OM], Gur Ghar predicated it with Ek [1] Om [sound] kar [eternal]. Removed it completely from having attributes. Gur Ghar kept the ideology of the Brahm as the primary cause and through out Gurbani it has been epitomised.

Yes, I agree. The departure from the Hindu Trimurti occurs with the placement of the numeral 1 (Ek) before the Oankar. This in effect rejects the trinity in favor of the One who creates, sustains and destroys.

The Ek is nirgun (without attributes), but we cannot rule out the sargun that is Oankar. Both terms taken together are what make Sikhi panentheistic.

The shabadh Dhakni Oankar discusses both terms separately (Ekankar, Oankar). The shabadh begins on page 929, GGS.

It begins with a discussion of Oankar, through which creation is manifest (sargun). Then it transitions into Ekankar, which permeates the creation, but remains distinct (nirgun).

ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਦਖਣੀ ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ
रामकली महला १ दखणी ओअंकारु
Rāmkalī mėhlā 1 ḏakẖ▫ṇī o▫ankār
Raamkalee, First Mehl, Dakhanee, Ongkaar:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਉਤਪਤਿ ॥
ओअंकारि ब्रहमा उतपति ॥
O▫ankār barahmā uṯpaṯ.
From Ongkaar, the One Universal Creator God, Brahma was created.

ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਚਿਤਿ ॥
ओअंकारु कीआ जिनि चिति ॥
O▫ankār kī▫ā jin cẖiṯ.
He kept Ongkaar in his consciousness.

ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਸੈਲ ਜੁਗ ਭਏ ॥
ओअंकारि सैल जुग भए ॥
O▫ankār sail jug bẖa▫e.
From Ongkaar, the mountains and the ages were created.

ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਬੇਦ ਨਿਰਮਏ ॥
ओअंकारि बेद निरमए ॥
O▫ankār beḏ nirma▫e.
Ongkaar created the Vedas.

ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਉਧਰੇ ॥
ओअंकारि सबदि उधरे ॥
O▫ankār sabaḏ uḏẖre.
Ongkaar saves the world through the Shabad.

ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤਰੇ ॥
ओअंकारि गुरमुखि तरे ॥
O▫ankār gurmukẖ ṯare.
Ongkaar saves the Gurmukhs.

ਓਨਮ ਅਖਰ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
ओनम अखर सुणहु बीचारु ॥
Onam akẖar suṇhu bīcẖār.
Listen to the Message of the Universal, Imperishable Creator Lord.

ਓਨਮ ਅਖਰੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
ओनम अखरु त्रिभवण सारु ॥१॥
Onam akẖar ṯaribẖavaṇ sār. ||1||
The Universal, Imperishable Creator Lord is the essence of the three worlds. ||1||

ਸੁਣਿ ਪਾਡੇ ਕਿਆ ਲਿਖਹੁ ਜੰਜਾਲਾ ॥
सुणि पाडे किआ लिखहु जंजाला ॥
Suṇ pāde ki▫ā likẖahu janjālā.
Listen, O Pandit, O religious scholar, why are you writing about worldly debates?

ਲਿਖੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗੋਪਾਲਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
लिखु राम नाम गुरमुखि गोपाला ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Likẖ rām nām gurmukẖ gopālā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
As Gurmukh, write only the Name of the Lord, the Lord of the World. ||1||Pause||

ਸਸੈ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਸਹਜਿ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਤੀਨਿ ਭਵਨ ਇਕ ਜੋਤੀ ॥
ससै सभु जगु सहजि उपाइआ तीनि भवन इक जोती ॥
Sasai sabẖ jag sahj upā▫i▫ā ṯīn bẖavan ik joṯī.
Sassa: He created the entire universe with ease; His One Light pervades the three worlds.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵਸਤੁ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਚੁਣਿ ਲੈ ਮਾਣਕ ਮੋਤੀ ॥
गुरमुखि वसतु परापति होवै चुणि लै माणक मोती ॥
Gurmukẖ vasaṯ parāpaṯ hovai cẖuṇ lai māṇak moṯī.
Become Gurmukh, and obtain the real thing; gather the gems and pearls.

ਸਮਝੈ ਸੂਝੈ ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਅੰਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਸਾਚਾ ॥
समझै सूझै पड़ि पड़ि बूझै अंति निरंतरि साचा ॥
Samjẖai sūjẖai paṛ paṛ būjẖai anṯ niranṯar sācẖā.
If one understands, realizes and comprehends what he reads and studies, in the end he shall realize that the True Lord dwells deep within his nucleus.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਸਾਚੁ ਸਮਾਲੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਾਚੇ ਜਗੁ ਕਾਚਾ ॥੨॥
गुरमुखि देखै साचु समाले बिनु साचे जगु काचा ॥२॥
Gurmukẖ ḏekẖai sācẖ samāle bin sācẖe jag kācẖā. ||2||
The Gurmukh sees and contemplates the True Lord; without the True Lord, the world is false. ||2||

ਧਧੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਧਰੇ ਧਰਮਾ ਪੁਰਿ ਗੁਣਕਾਰੀ ਮਨੁ ਧੀਰਾ ॥
धधै धरमु धरे धरमा पुरि गुणकारी मनु धीरा ॥
Ḏẖaḏẖai ḏẖaram ḏẖare ḏẖarmā pur guṇkārī man ḏẖīrā.
Dhadha: Those who enshrine Dharmic faith and dwell in the City of Dharma are worthy; their minds are steadfast and stable.

ਧਧੈ ਧੂਲਿ ਪੜੈ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਕੰਚਨ ਭਏ ਮਨੂਰਾ ॥
धधै धूलि पड़ै मुखि मसतकि कंचन भए मनूरा ॥
Ḏẖaḏẖai ḏẖūl paṛai mukẖ masṯak kancẖan bẖa▫e manūrā.
Dhadha: If the dust of their feet touches one's face and forehead, he is transformed from iron into gold.

ਧਨੁ ਧਰਣੀਧਰੁ ਆਪਿ ਅਜੋਨੀ ਤੋਲਿ ਬੋਲਿ ਸਚੁ ਪੂਰਾ ॥
धनु धरणीधरु आपि अजोनी तोलि बोलि सचु पूरा ॥
Ḏẖan ḏẖarṇīḏẖar āp ajonī ṯol bol sacẖ pūrā.
Blessed is the Support of the Earth; He Himself is not born; His measure and speech are perfect and True.

ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀ ਮਿਤਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੈ ਜਾਣੈ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੂਰਾ ॥੩॥
करते की मिति करता जाणै कै जाणै गुरु सूरा ॥३॥
Karṯe kī miṯ karṯā jāṇai kai jāṇai gur sūrā. ||3||
Only the Creator Himself knows His own extent; He alone knows the Brave Guru. ||3||

ਙਿਆਨੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਇਆ ਗਰਬਿ ਗਲੇ ਬਿਖੁ ਖਾਇਆ ॥
ङिआनु गवाइआ दूजा भाइआ गरबि गले बिखु खाइआ ॥
Ńi▫ān gavā▫i▫ā ḏūjā bẖā▫i▫ā garab gale bikẖ kẖā▫i▫ā.
In love with duality, spiritual wisdom is lost; the mortal rots away in pride, and eats poison.

ਗੁਰ ਰਸੁ ਗੀਤ ਬਾਦ ਨਹੀ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਗਹਿਰ ਗੰਭੀਰੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥
गुर रसु गीत बाद नही भावै सुणीऐ गहिर ग्मभीरु गवाइआ ॥
Gur ras gīṯ bāḏ nahī bẖāvai suṇī▫ai gahir gambẖīr gavā▫i▫ā.
He thinks that the sublime essence of the Guru's song is useless, and he does not like to hear it. He loses the profound, unfathomable Lord.

ਗੁਰਿ ਸਚੁ ਕਹਿਆ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਲਹਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸੁਖਾਇਆ ॥
गुरि सचु कहिआ अम्रितु लहिआ मनि तनि साचु सुखाइआ ॥
Gur sacẖ kahi▫ā amriṯ lahi▫ā man ṯan sācẖ sukẖā▫i▫ā.
Through the Guru's Words of Truth, the Ambrosial Nectar is obtained, and the mind and body find joy in the True Lord.

ਆਪੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਵੈ ਆਪੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਆਇਆ ॥੪॥
आपे गुरमुखि आपे देवै आपे अम्रितु पीआइआ ॥४॥
Āpe gurmukẖ āpe ḏevai āpe amriṯ pī▫ā▫i▫ā. ||4||
He Himself is the Gurmukh, and He Himself bestows the Ambrosial Nectar; He Himself leads us to drink it in. ||4||

ਏਕੋ ਏਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ਹਉਮੈ ਗਰਬੁ ਵਿਆਪੈ ॥
एको एकु कहै सभु कोई हउमै गरबु विआपै ॥
Ėko ek kahai sabẖ ko▫ī ha▫umai garab vi▫āpai.
Everyone says that God is the One and only, but they are engrossed in egotism and pride.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਏਕੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਇਉ ਘਰੁ ਮਹਲੁ ਸਿਞਾਪੈ ॥
अंतरि बाहरि एकु पछाणै इउ घरु महलु सिञापै ॥
Anṯar bāhar ek pacẖẖāṇai i▫o gẖar mahal siñāpai.
Realize that the One God is inside and outside; understand this, that the Mansion of His Presence is within the home of your heart.

ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨੇੜੈ ਹਰਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਏਕੋ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਬਾਈ ॥
प्रभु नेड़ै हरि दूरि न जाणहु एको स्रिसटि सबाई ॥
Parabẖ neṛai har ḏūr na jāṇhu eko sarisat sabā▫ī.
God is near at hand; do not think that God is far away. The One Lord permeates the entire universe.

ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੁ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੫॥
एकंकारु अवरु नही दूजा नानक एकु समाई ॥५॥
Ėkankār avar nahī ḏūjā Nānak ek samā▫ī. ||5||
There in One Universal Creator Lord; there is no other at all. O Nanak, merge into the One Lord. ||5||

ਇਸੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਕਉ ਕਿਉ ਗਹਿ ਰਾਖਉ ਅਫਰਿਓ ਤੁਲਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
इसु करते कउ किउ गहि राखउ अफरिओ तुलिओ न जाई ॥
Is karṯe ka▫o ki▫o gėh rākẖa▫o afri▫o ṯuli▫o na jā▫ī.
How can you keep the Creator under your control? He cannot be seized or measured.

ਮਾਇਆ ਕੇ ਦੇਵਾਨੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਝੂਠਿ ਠਗਉਰੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
माइआ के देवाने प्राणी झूठि ठगउरी पाई ॥
Mā▫i▫ā ke ḏevāne parāṇī jẖūṯẖ ṯẖag▫urī pā▫ī.
Maya has made the mortal insane; she has administered the poisonous drug of falsehood.

ਲਬਿ ਲੋਭਿ ਮੁਹਤਾਜਿ ਵਿਗੂਤੇ ਇਬ ਤਬ ਫਿਰਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਈ ॥
लबि लोभि मुहताजि विगूते इब तब फिरि पछुताई ॥
Lab lobẖ muhṯāj vigūṯe ib ṯab fir pacẖẖuṯā▫ī.
Addicted to greed and avarice, the mortal is ruined, and then later, he regrets and repents.

ਏਕੁ ਸਰੇਵੈ ਤਾ ਗਤਿ ਮਿਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਰਹਾਈ ॥੬॥
एकु सरेवै ता गति मिति पावै आवणु जाणु रहाई ॥६॥
Ėk sarevai ṯā gaṯ miṯ pāvai āvaṇ jāṇ rahā▫ī. ||6||
So serve the One Lord, and attain the state of Salvation; your comings and goings shall cease. ||6||

ਏਕੁ ਅਚਾਰੁ ਰੰਗੁ ਇਕੁ ਰੂਪੁ ॥
एकु अचारु रंगु इकु रूपु ॥
Ėk acẖār rang ik rūp.
The One Lord is in all actions, colors and forms.

ਪਉਣ ਪਾਣੀ ਅਗਨੀ ਅਸਰੂਪੁ ॥
पउण पाणी अगनी असरूपु ॥
Pa▫uṇ pāṇī agnī asrūp.
He manifests in many shapes through wind, water and fire.

ਏਕੋ ਭਵਰੁ ਭਵੈ ਤਿਹੁ ਲੋਇ ॥
एको भवरु भवै तिहु लोइ ॥
Ėko bẖavar bẖavai ṯihu lo▫e.
The One Soul wanders through the three worlds.

ਏਕੋ ਬੂਝੈ ਸੂਝੈ ਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
एको बूझै सूझै पति होइ ॥
Ėko būjẖai sūjẖai paṯ ho▫e.
One who understands and comprehends the One Lord is honored.

ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਲੇ ਸਮਸਰਿ ਰਹੈ ॥
गिआनु धिआनु ले समसरि रहै ॥
Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān le samsar rahai.
One who gathers in spiritual wisdom and meditation, dwells in the state of balance.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕੁ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਕੋ ਲਹੈ ॥
गुरमुखि एकु विरला को लहै ॥
Gurmukẖ ek virlā ko lahai.
How rare are those who, as Gurmukh, attain the One Lord.

ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਦੇਇ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਏ ॥
जिस नो देइ किरपा ते सुखु पाए ॥
Jis no ḏe▫e kirpā ṯe sukẖ pā▫e.
They alone find peace, whom the Lord blesses with His Grace.

ਗੁਰੂ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥੭॥
गुरू दुआरै आखि सुणाए ॥७॥
Gurū ḏu▫ārai ākẖ suṇā▫e. ||7||
In the Gurdwara, the Guru's Door, they speak and hear of the Lord. ||7||

ਊਰਮ ਧੂਰਮ ਜੋਤਿ ਉਜਾਲਾ ॥
ऊरम धूरम जोति उजाला ॥
Ūram ḏẖūram joṯ ujālā.
His Light illuminates the ocean and the earth.

ਤੀਨਿ ਭਵਣ ਮਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਪਾਲਾ ॥
तीनि भवण महि गुर गोपाला ॥
Ŧīn bẖavaṇ mėh gur gopālā.
Throughout the three worlds, is the Guru, the Lord of the World.

ਊਗਵਿਆ ਅਸਰੂਪੁ ਦਿਖਾਵੈ ॥
ऊगविआ असरूपु दिखावै ॥
Ūgvi▫ā asrūp ḏikẖāvai.
The Lord reveals His various forms;

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਅਪੁਨੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਵੈ ॥
करि किरपा अपुनै घरि आवै ॥
Kar kirpā apunai gẖar āvai.
granting His Grace, He enters the home of the heart.

ਊਨਵਿ ਬਰਸੈ ਨੀਝਰ ਧਾਰਾ ॥
ऊनवि बरसै नीझर धारा ॥
Ūnav barsai nījẖar ḏẖārā.
The clouds hang low, and the rain is pouring down.

ਊਤਮ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਵਾਰਣਹਾਰਾ ॥
ऊतम सबदि सवारणहारा ॥
Ūṯam sabaḏ savāraṇhārā.
The Lord embellishes and exalts with the Sublime Word of the Shabad.

ਇਸੁ ਏਕੇ ਕਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥
इसु एके का जाणै भेउ ॥
Is eke kā jāṇai bẖe▫o.
One who knows the mystery of the One God,

ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਉ ॥੮॥
आपे करता आपे देउ ॥८॥
Āpe karṯā āpe ḏe▫o. ||8||
is Himself the Creator, Himself the Divine Lord. ||8||

ਉਗਵੈ ਸੂਰੁ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ ॥
उगवै सूरु असुर संघारै ॥
Ugvai sūr asur sangẖārai.
When the sun rises, the demons are slain;

ਊਚਉ ਦੇਖਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੈ ॥
ऊचउ देखि सबदि बीचारै ॥
Ūcẖa▫o ḏekẖ sabaḏ bīcẖārai.
the mortal looks upwards, and contemplates the Shabad.

ਊਪਰਿ ਆਦਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਤਿਹੁ ਲੋਇ ॥
ऊपरि आदि अंति तिहु लोइ ॥
Ūpar āḏ anṯ ṯihu lo▫e.
The Lord is beyond the beginning and the end, beyond the three worlds.

ਆਪੇ ਕਰੈ ਕਥੈ ਸੁਣੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
आपे करै कथै सुणै सोइ ॥
Āpe karai kathai suṇai so▫e.
He Himself acts, speaks and listens.
 

Original

Writer
SPNer
....my dearest, no one steals anything from anyone. Rise above the modes of perception and conception and know the doer and the do are the 1 and all is play [lilla]. The good, bad and ugly are all its manifestations.

You are an advanced spiritual soul, elevate to the next plane, that is, see Waheguru in ALL.

Ekankar, yes, I not only heard of them but had the pleasure to attend some of their gatherings when I was young and handsome. One of my very dear friend was part of the congreation who took me to one of their meetings and incidently, then under the jurisdiction of Darwin Gross [read Awarness] modern American thought and practice was cottoning on, all being built around the Indian concept of "spirituality".

Old wine in a new bottle, why not, the destination is ONE.

Enjoy the day and let me invite you over to another thread currently spearheaded by 1469-1708 and converse.
 

Original

Writer
SPNer
Yes, I agree. The departure from the Hindu Trimurti occurs with the placement of the numeral 1 (Ek) before the Oankar. This in effect rejects the trinity in favor of the One who creates, sustains and destroys.
..correct ! Nanak wanted to show creation has taken place and everything has been set in motion [Newtonian physics, i.e. determinism] and his Nirankar is free from dissolution n creation, hence the departure. It was to show that there is an objective "good" which doesn't require qualifications but realisation and that realisation can only be achieved through Sargun [subjective, i.e. part of the objective good].
The Ek is nirgun (without attributes), but we cannot rule out the sargun that is Oankar. Both terms taken together are what make Sikhi panentheistic.
...these are western concepts [panetheistics] and interpretaions of the one God [mahalla 5, p290 SGGSJ]. Subject matter is diluted to infilterate and provide intelligable theory of the workings of social organisms in a varity of situations and circumstances. Sikhism draws on the simple from the complex [meaning, Ikonkar] whereas, western commontators worked on the complex to the simple [meaning, whole]. All in all, as Nanak would say, what isn't waheguru? And, we have to as Sikhs honour the writings of SGGSJ, in particular page 340, that is, using words as a mean to an end. Yes says page 340, you can go as far as the door of His mansion [Ikonkar] but cannot enter on account of word dialectical. In other words, Sikhism Spiritual is where the intellect stops and the spiritual starts, meaning, none of these academic excursions are going to give you the view of the mansion from within. So says Nanak, to all the scholars of the universe, my truth [satnam] is no different or is abstract from any other truth, but is higher in living then it is in realising [higher than truth is truthful living]. You see Nanak has capped it and given the world Khalsa as a form of ethical conduct en route spiritual journey, meaning, actions are greater than words.
The shabadh Dhakni Oankar discusses both terms separately (Ekankar, Oankar). The shabadh begins on page 929, GGS.

It begins with a discussion of Oankar, through which creation is manifest (sargun). Then it transitions into Ekankar, which permeates the creation, but remains distinct (nirgun).
...pls forgive me for not reading page 929, I will do later to understand the point your making, but suffice to say, the concept of sargun [subject] and nirgun [object] confers on the seeker a ploy that they are both the one and the same, that is, singularity. In other words, the door to Nanak's nirgun is through sargun, meaning, realisation/experience of its existence is ONLY doable through attributes.

Much obliged !
 
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chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Slightly off topic for a min... Just an observation. Did u ever hear of the group who calls themselves Eckankar? It's got elements of sant mat and radhasoami with some Sikh terminology thrown in. They focus on 'sound' as a means to access """God""" or the divine or whatever we want to call it. So they have something similar to simran concept. Anyway I read something about them recently and how they stole aspects from Sikhi including the name... Okay end off topic haha

from my own personal experience so far, i would say sound, anhad bani, shabad, shabad guru, anhad naad...whatever you want to call it is very important in the process of full experience of the 'ik'. Although i am only skimming the surface of this journey thus far, Sound always seems to play a part...

if you reverse the equation of Life....Ik Ong Kaar... we have to go from the Kaar (creation) with the aid of the Ong (sound, Shabad Guru), to the Ik...

hency why in Gurbani it says to attach your consciousness \ attention \ dyan to the shabad..
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
To satisfy the rules:

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੪
सिरीरागु महला १ घरु ४ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4.
Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:
ਏਕਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਜੇਤੇ ਹੈ ਜੀਅ
एका सुरति जेते है जीअ ॥
Ėkā suraṯ jeṯe hai jī▫a.
There is one awareness among all created beings.
ਸੁਰਤਿ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕੀਅ
सुरति विहूणा कोइ न कीअ ॥
Suraṯ vihūṇā ko▫e na kī▫a.
None have been created without this awareness.
ਜੇਹੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਤੇਹਾ ਤਿਨ ਰਾਹੁ
जेही सुरति तेहा तिन राहु ॥
Jehī suraṯ ṯehā ṯin rāhu.
As is their awareness, so is their way.
ਲੇਖਾ ਇਕੋ ਆਵਹੁ ਜਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
लेखा इको आवहु जाहु ॥१॥
Lekẖā iko āvhu jāhu. ||1||
According to the account of our actions, we come and go in reincarnation. ||1||
ਕਾਹੇ ਜੀਅ ਕਰਹਿ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ
काहे जीअ करहि चतुराई ॥
Kāhe jī▫a karahi cẖaṯurā▫ī.
Why, O soul, do you try such clever tricks?
ਲੇਵੈ ਦੇਵੈ ਢਿਲ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
लेवै देवै ढिल न पाई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Levai ḏevai dẖil na pā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Taking away and giving back, God does not delay. ||1||Pause||
ਤੇਰੇ ਜੀਅ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਤੋਹਿ
तेरे जीअ जीआ का तोहि ॥
Ŧere jī▫a jī▫ā kā ṯohi.
All beings belong to You; all beings are Yours. O Lord and Master,
ਕਿਤ ਕਉ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਵਹਿ ਰੋਹਿ
कित कउ साहिब आवहि रोहि ॥
Kiṯ ka▫o sāhib āvahi rohi.
how can You become angry with them?
ਜੇ ਤੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਵਹਿ ਰੋਹਿ
जे तू साहिब आवहि रोहि ॥
Je ṯū sāhib āvahi rohi.
Even if You, O Lord and Master, become angry with them,
ਤੂ ਓਨਾ ਕਾ ਤੇਰੇ ਓਹਿ ॥੨॥
तू ओना का तेरे ओहि ॥२॥
Ŧū onā kā ṯere ohi. ||2||
still, You are theirs, and they are Yours. ||2||
ਅਸੀ ਬੋਲਵਿਗਾੜ ਵਿਗਾੜਹ ਬੋਲ
असी बोलविगाड़ विगाड़ह बोल ॥
Asī bolvigāṛ vigāṛah bol.
We are foul-mouthed; we spoil everything with our foul words.
ਤੂ ਨਦਰੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਤੋਲਹਿ ਤੋਲ
तू नदरी अंदरि तोलहि तोल ॥
Ŧū naḏrī anḏar ṯolėh ṯol.
You weigh us in the balance of Your Glance of Grace.
ਜਹ ਕਰਣੀ ਤਹ ਪੂਰੀ ਮਤਿ
जह करणी तह पूरी मति ॥
Jah karṇī ṯah pūrī maṯ.
When one's actions are right, the understanding is perfect.
ਕਰਣੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਘਟੇ ਘਟਿ ॥੩॥
करणी बाझहु घटे घटि ॥३॥
Karṇī bājẖahu gẖate gẖat. ||3||
Without good deeds, it becomes more and more deficient. ||3||
ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈਸਾ ਹੋਇ
प्रणवति नानक गिआनी कैसा होइ ॥
Paraṇvaṯ Nānak gi▫ānī kaisā ho▫e.
Prays Nanak, what is the nature of the spiritual people?
ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ਬੂਝੈ ਸੋਇ
आपु पछाणै बूझै सोइ ॥
Āp pacẖẖāṇai būjẖai so▫e.
They are self-realized; they understand God.
ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਕਰੇ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ
गुर परसादि करे बीचारु ॥
Gur parsāḏ kare bīcẖār.
By Guru's Grace, they contemplate Him;
ਸੋ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥੪॥੩੦॥
सो गिआनी दरगह परवाणु ॥४॥३०॥
So gi▫ānī ḏargėh parvāṇ. ||4||30||
such spiritual people are honored in His Court. ||4||30||

Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have no idea how much fluent you are in Gurmukhi now but after having looked at the English translation, I am sorry to say that it is totally distorted.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੪
सिरीरागु महला १ घरु ४ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4.
Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:
ਏਕਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਜੇਤੇ ਹੈ ਜੀਅ
एका सुरति जेते है जीअ ॥
Ėkā suraṯ jeṯe hai jī▫a.
There is one awareness among all created beings.
What do you understand by One Awareness?
The original in Gurmukhi does not say One Awareness.


ਸੁਰਤਿ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕੀਅ

सुरति विहूणा कोइ न कीअ ॥
Suraṯ vihūṇā ko▫e na kī▫a.
None have been created without 'this' awareness.
What is the difference between one awareness and this awareness?

ਜੇਹੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਤੇਹਾ ਤਿਨ ਰਾਹੁ

जेही सुरति तेहा तिन राहु ॥
Jehī suraṯ ṯehā ṯin rāhu.
As is their awareness, so is their way.
If there is one awareness then what does their mean here?
ਲੇਖਾ ਇਕੋ ਆਵਹੁ ਜਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
लेखा इको आवहु जाहु ॥१॥
Lekẖā iko āvhu jāhu. ||1||
According to the account of our actions, we come and go in reincarnation. ||1||
How do you understand the above pankti which mentions reincarnation?
It does not say anything about reincarnation in original in Gurmukhi. It just says one is born and one dies.

ਕਾਹੇ ਜੀਅ ਕਰਹਿ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ
काहे जीअ करहि चतुराई ॥
Kāhe jī▫a karahi cẖaṯurā▫ī.

Why, O soul, do you try such clever tricks?

In original, it says -Person- Not Soul

ਲੇਵੈ ਦੇਵੈ ਢਿਲ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
लेवै देवै ढिल न पाई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Levai ḏevai dẖil na pā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Taking away and giving back, God does not delay. ||1||Pause||



After understanding what you have gathered from this Shabad with your understanding, then only I can show you where the translation is distorted and/or misleading which affects one's owns understanding about this beautiful poetry. And this is just the first stanza and the Rahao of the Shabad I used just as an example.

Thanks.

Tejwant Singh
 
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Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
I have provided my understanding of Harkiran Kaur ji's original shabad as well as part that Tejwant Singh ji referred to. I always stand corrected and errors are always mine;

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http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=24&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=1&k=1&fb=0

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁਮਹਲਾ੧ਘਰੁ੪॥

Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4.

Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗ, ਪਹਿਲੀਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ।

xxx
xxx


ਏਕਾਸੁਰਤਿਜੇਤੇਹੈਜੀਅ॥

Ėkā suraṯ jeṯe hai jī▫a.

There is one awareness among all created beings.

ਸਮੂਹਜੀਵਾਂਅੰਦਰਉਹੋਹੀਅੰਤ੍ਰੀਵੀ-ਗਿਆਤਹੈ।

ਸੁਰਤਿ = ਸੂਝ।ਏਕਾਸੁਰਤਿ = ਇਕ (ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਦੀਦਿੱਤੀਹੋਈ) ਸੂਝ।ਜੀਅ = {'ਜੀਉ' ਤੋਂਬਹੁ-ਵਚਨ} ਜੀਵ।ਜੇਤੇ = ਜਿਤਨੇ।
ਜਿਤਨੇਭੀਜੀਵਹਨ (ਇਹਨਾਂਸਭਨਾਂਦੇਅੰਦਰ) ਇਕਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਦੀਹੀਬਖ਼ਸ਼ੀਹੋਈਸੂਝਕੰਮਕਰਰਹੀਹੈ।

Just as one awareness in all life forms


ਸੁਰਤਿਵਿਹੂਣਾਕੋਇਨਕੀਅ॥

Suraṯ vihūṇā ko▫e na kī▫a.

None have been created without this awareness.

ਅੰਤ੍ਰੀਵੀਗਿਆਤਦੇਬਗੈਰ, ਉਸਨੇਕੋਈਭੀਪੈਦਾਨਹੀਂਕੀਤਾ।

ਵਿਹੂਣਾ = ਸੱਖਣਾ।ਕੀਅ = ਪੈਦਾਕੀਤਾ।
(ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਨੇ) ਕੋਈਭੀਐਸਾਜੀਵਪੈਦਾਨਹੀਂਕੀਤਾਜਿਸਨੂੰਸੂਝਤੋਂਵਿਰਵਾਰੱਖਿਆਹੋਵੇ।

None is created without awareness


ਜੇਹੀਸੁਰਤਿਤੇਹਾਤਿਨਰਾਹੁ॥

Jehī suraṯ ṯehā ṯin rāhu.

As is their awareness, so is their way.

ਜੇਹੋਜੇਹੀਗਿਆਤਹੈ, ਉਹੋਜੇਹਾਉਨ੍ਹਾਂਦਾਰਸਤਾਹੈ।

ਤਿਨਰਾਹੁ = ਉਹਨਾਂਜੀਵਾਂਦਾਜੀਵਨ-ਰਸਤਾ।
ਜਿਹੋਜਿਹੀਸੂਝ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂਜੀਵਾਂਨੂੰਦੇਂਦਾਹੈ) ਉਹੋਜਿਹਾਜੀਵਨ-ਰਸਤਾਉਹਫੜਲੈਂਦੇਹਨ।

As is the awareness so are their paths


ਲੇਖਾਇਕੋਆਵਹੁਜਾਹੁ॥੧॥

Lekẖā iko āvhu jāhu. ||1||

According to the account of our actions, we come and go in reincarnation. ||1||

ਕੇਵਲਉਹੀ (ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀਆਂਤੋਂ) ਹਿਸਾਬਕਿਤਾਬਲੈਂਦਾਹੈਤੇ (ਉਸਦੇਹੁਕਮਦੇਅਧੀਨਹੀ) ਉਹਆਉਂਦੇਤੇਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ।

ਲੇਖਾਇਕੋ = ਇਕਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਹੀਇਹਲੇਖਾਰੱਖਦਾਹੈ।ਆਵਹੁਜਾਹੁ = (ਮਿਲੀਸੁਰਤਅਨੁਸਾਰ) ਜੀਵਆਉਂਦੇਤੇਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ।੧।
(ਉਸੇਮਿਲੀਸੂਝਅਨੁਸਾਰ) ਜੀਵ (ਜਗਤਵਿਚ) ਆਉਂਦੇਹਨਤੇ (ਇੱਥੋਂ) ਚਲੇਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ।ਇਹਮਰਯਾਦਾਤੋਰਨਵਾਲਾਪ੍ਰਭੂਆਪਹੀਹੈ॥੧॥

So directed by one the coming and going


ਕਾਹੇਜੀਅਕਰਹਿਚਤੁਰਾਈ॥

Kāhe jī▫a karahi cẖaṯurā▫ī.

Why, O soul, do you try such clever tricks?

ਹੇਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ! ਤੂੰਕਿਉਂਚਲਾਕੀਕਰਦਾਹੈਂ?

ਜੀਅ = ਹੇਜੀਵ!
ਹੇਜੀਵ! ਤੂੰ (ਆਪਣੀਚੰਗੀਸੂਝ-ਅਕਲਵਿਖਾਣਲਈ) ਕਿਉਂਚਲਾਕੀਕਰਦਾਹੈਂ?

Hey the living, why act to be clever


ਲੇਵੈਦੇਵੈਢਿਲਨਪਾਈ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥

Levai ḏevai dẖil na pā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Taking away and giving back, God does not delay. ||1||Pause||

ਵਾਪਸਲੈਣਅਤੇਦੇਣਵਿੱਚਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਚਿਰਨਹੀਂਲਾਉਂਦਾ! ਠਹਿਰਾਉ।

ਲੇਵੈ = (ਜੀਵਤੋਂਸੂਝ) ਖੋਹਲੈਂਦਾਹੈ।੧।
ਉਹਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਹੀ (ਜੀਵਾਂਨੂੰਸੂਝ) ਦੇਂਦਾਭੀਹੈਤੇਲੈਭੀਲੈਂਦਾਹੈ, ਰਤਾਚਿਰਨਹੀਂਲਾਂਦਾ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥

In no time it is taken back or given


ਤੇਰੇਜੀਅਜੀਆਕਾਤੋਹਿ॥

Ŧere jī▫a jī▫ā kā ṯohi.

All beings belong to You; all beings are Yours. O Lord and Master,

ਜੀਵਤੇਰੇਹਨਅਤੇਤੂੰਜੀਵਾਂਦਾ (ਮਾਲਕ) ਹੈਂ।

ਤੋਹਿ = ਤੂੰ।
ਹੇਮਾਲਕ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂ! ਸਾਰੇਜੀਵਤੇਰੇਪੈਦਾਕੀਤੇਹੋਏਹਨ, ਸਾਰੇਜੀਵਾਂਦਾਤੂੰਹੀਖਸਮਹੈਂ।

All life is yours and you are for all life


ਕਿਤਕਉਸਾਹਿਬਆਵਹਿਰੋਹਿ॥

Kiṯ ka▫o sāhib āvahi rohi.

how can You become angry with them?

ਕਾਹਦੇਲਈਤੂੰਤਦਉਨ੍ਹਾਂਉਤੇਗੁੱਸੇਹੁੰਦਾਹੈਂ, ਹੇਸੁਆਮੀ?

ਕਿਤਕਿਉ = ਕਿਉਂ?
(ਜੇਜੀਵਤੈਥੋਂਮਿਲੀਸੂਝ-ਅਕਲਦਾਮਾਣਭੀਕਰਨ, ਤਾਂਭੀ) ਤੂੰਗੁੱਸੇਵਿਚਨਹੀਂਆਉਂਦਾ (ਕਿਉਂਕਿਆਖ਼ਰਇਹਜੀਵਸਾਰੇਤੇਰੇਹੀਹਨ)।

Why would the respected become angry


ਜੇਤੂਸਾਹਿਬਆਵਹਿਰੋਹਿ॥

Je ṯū sāhib āvahi rohi.

Even if You, O Lord and Master, become angry with them,

ਜੇਕਰਤੈਨੂੰਗੁੰਸਾਭੀਆਉਂਦਾਹੈਹੇਸਾਈਂ!

ਸਾਹਿਬ = ਹੇਸਾਹਿਬ! ਰੋਹਿ = ਰੋਹਵਿਚ, ਗੁੱਸੇਵਿਚ।
ਹੇਮਾਲਕਪ੍ਰਭੂ! ਜੇਤੂੰਗੁੱਸੇਵਿਚਆਵੇਂ (ਤਾਂਕਿਸਉੱਤੇਆਵੇਂ?)

If you respected one comes to be angry


ਤੂਓਨਾਕਾਤੇਰੇਓਹਿ॥੨॥

Ŧū onā kā ṯere ohi. ||2||

still, You are theirs, and they are Yours. ||2||

ਫਿਰਭੀ, ਤੂੰਉਨ੍ਹਾਂਦਾਹੈਂਅਤੇਉਹਤੇਰੇ।

ਓਹਿ = ਉਹਸਾਰੇਜੀਵ।
ਤੂੰਉਹਨਾਂਦਾਮਾਲਕਹੈਂ, ਉਹਸਾਰੇਤੇਰੇਹੀਬਣਾਏਹੋਏਹਨ॥੨॥

You are theirs and they are yours


ਅਸੀਬੋਲਵਿਗਾੜਵਿਗਾੜਹਬੋਲ॥

Asī bolvigāṛ vigāṛah bol.

We are foul-mouthed; we spoil everything with our foul words.

ਆਪਾਂਬਦਜ਼ਬਾਨ, (ਆਪਦੇਵਿਚਾਰ-ਹੀਣ) ਬਚਨਾਂਦੁਆਰਾਸਾਰਾਕੁਝਖ਼ਰਾਬਕਰਲੈਂਦੇਹਾਂ।

ਬੋਲਵਿਗਾੜ = ਬੜਬੋਲੇ, ਵਿਗੜੇਬੋਲਬੋਲਣਵਾਲੇ।ਵਿਗਾੜਹ = {ਵਰਤਮਾਨ, ਉੱਤਮਪੁਰਖ, ਬਹੁ-ਵਚਨ} ਅਸੀਂਵਿਗਾੜਦੇਹਾਂ।ਵਿਗਾੜਹਬੋਲ = ਅਸੀਂਫਿੱਕੇਬੋਲਬੋਲਦੇਹਾਂ।
(ਹੇਪ੍ਰਭੂ!) ਅਸੀਂਜੀਵਬੜਬੋਲੇਹਾਂ, ਅਸੀਂ (ਤੈਥੋਂਮਿਲੀਸੂਝ-ਅਕਲਉਤੇਮਾਣਕਰਕੇਅਨੇਕਾਂਵਾਰੀ) ਫਿੱਕੇਬੋਲਬੋਲਦੇਂਦੇਹਾਂ,

We bad mouthing ones utter bad words


ਤੂਨਦਰੀਅੰਦਰਿਤੋਲਹਿਤੋਲ॥

Ŧū naḏrī anḏar ṯolėh ṯol.

You weigh us in the balance of Your Glance of Grace.

ਆਪਣੀਨਿਗ੍ਹਾਹੇਠਾਂਤੂੰਉਨ੍ਹਾਂਦਾਭਾਰ (ਮੁੱਲ) ਜੋਖਦਾਹੈਂ।

ਨਦਰੀਅੰਦਰਿ = ਮਿਹਰਦੀਨਿਗਾਹਨਾਲ।ਤੋਲਹਿ = ਤੂੰਤੋਲਦਾਹੈਂ, ਤੂੰਜਾਚਦਾਹੈਂ।
ਪਰਤੂੰ (ਸਾਡੇਕੁਬੋਲਾਂਨੂੰ) ਮਿਹਰਦੀਨਿਗਾਹਨਾਲਪਰਖਦਾਹੈਂ।

You in grace weigh all to be weighed


ਜਹਕਰਣੀਤਹਪੂਰੀਮਤਿ॥

Jah karṇī ṯah pūrī maṯ.

When one's actions are right, the understanding is perfect.

ਜਿਥੇਅਮਲਨੇਕਹਨਉਥੇਮੁਕੰਮਲਸੋਚਸਮਝਹੈ।

ਜਹ = ਜਿਥੇ, ਜਿਸਮਨੁੱਖਦੇਅੰਦਰ।ਕਰਣੀ = ਗੁਰੂਦਾਦੱਸਿਆਹੋਇਆਆਚਰਨ।
(ਗੁਰੂਦੇਦੱਸੇਰਾਹਉੱਤੇਤੁਰਕੇ) ਜਿਸਮਨੁੱਖਦੇਅੰਦਰਉੱਚਾਆਚਰਨਬਣਜਾਂਦਾਹੈਉਸਦੀਸੂਝ-ਅਕਲਭੀਗੰਭੀਰਹੋਜਾਂਦੀਹੈ (ਤੇਉਹਬੜਬੋਲਾਨਹੀਂਬਣਦਾ)।

One so doing per creator from within, so has become completely knowledgeable


ਕਰਣੀਬਾਝਹੁਘਟੇਘਟਿ॥੩॥

Karṇī bājẖahu gẖate gẖat. ||3||

Without good deeds, it becomes more and more deficient. ||3||

ਚੰਗੇਕਰਮਾਂਦੇਬਗ਼ੈਰਇਹਬਹੁਤਹੀਥੋੜ੍ਹੀਹੈ।

ਘਟੇਘਟਿ = ਘੱਟਹੀਘੱਟ, ਮੱਤਕਮਜ਼ੋਰਹੀਕਮਜ਼ੋਰ।੩।
(ਉੱਚੇ) ਆਚਰਨਤੋਂਬਿਨਾਮਨੁੱਖਦੀਸੂਝਬੂਝਭੀਨੀਵੀਂਹੀਰਹਿੰਦੀਹੈ॥੩॥

Without doing per creator becomes lesser and lesser


ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿਨਾਨਕਗਿਆਨੀਕੈਸਾਹੋਇ॥

Paraṇvaṯ Nānak gi▫ānī kaisā ho▫e.

Prays Nanak, what is the nature of the spiritual people?

ਨਾਨਕਬੇਨਤੀਕਰਦਾਹੈ, ਬ੍ਰਹਮਵੀਚਾਰਵਾਲਾਪੁਰਸ਼ਕੇਹੋਜੇਹਾਹੈ?

ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ = ਬੇਨਤੀਕਰਦਾਹੈ।
ਨਾਨਕਬੇਨਤੀਕਰਦਾਹੈ, ਅਸਲਗਿਆਨਵਾਨਮਨੁੱਖਉਹਹੈ,

Praying Nanak, how is a knowledgeable one,


ਆਪੁਪਛਾਣੈਬੂਝੈਸੋਇ॥

आपुपछाणैबूझैसोइ॥

Āp pacẖẖāṇai būjẖai so▫e.

They are self-realized; they understand God.

ਉਹਜੋਆਪਣੇਆਪਨੂੰਸਿੰਞਾਣਦਾਹੈਉਸਨੂੰਸਮਝਦਾਹੈ।

ਆਪੁ = ਆਪਣੇਆਪਨੂੰ, ਆਪਣੇਅਸਲੇਨੂੰ।
ਜੋਆਪਣੇਅਸਲੇਨੂੰਪਛਾਣਦਾਹੈ, ਜੋਉਸਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਨੂੰਹੀ (ਅਕਲ-ਦਾਤਾ) ਸਮਝਦਾਹੈ,

Knows one self, finds out about the creator


ਗੁਰਪਰਸਾਦਿਕਰੇਬੀਚਾਰੁ॥

Gur parsāḏ kare bīcẖār.

By Guru's Grace, they contemplate Him;

ਜਿਹੜਾਬ੍ਰਹਮਬੇਤਾ, ਗੁਰਾਂਦੀਦਯਾਦੁਆਰਸਾਹਿਬਦਾਸਿਮਰਨਕਰਦਾਹੈ,

ਪਰਸਾਦਿ = ਕਿਰਪਾਨਾਲ।੪।
ਜੋਗੁਰੂਦੀਮਿਹਰਨਾਲ (ਆਪਣੀਚਤੁਰਾਈਛੱਡਕੇਅਕਲ-ਦਾਤੇਪ੍ਰਭੂਦੇਗੁਣਾਂਦਾ) ਵਿਚਾਰਕਰਦਾਹੈ।

One in blessing of the creator so contemplating


ਸੋਗਿਆਨੀਦਰਗਹਪਰਵਾਣੁ॥੪॥੩੦॥

So gi▫ānī ḏargėh parvāṇ. ||4||30||

such spiritual people are honored in His Court. ||4||30||

ਉਹਉਸਦੇਦਰਬਾਰਅੰਦਰਕਬੂਲਪੈਜਾਂਦਾਹੈ।

xxx
ਅਜੇਹਾਗਿਆਨਵਾਨਮਨੁੱਖਪ੍ਰਭੂਦੀਹਜ਼ੂਰੀਵਿਚਕਬੂਲਹੋਜਾਂਦਾਹੈ॥੪॥੩੦॥

Such knowledgeable one finds acceptance in the realm of the creator

ESSENCE: Guru ji state that each living is imbued with specific awareness and none is without it. This guides the path for each life form as well as the coming to be and disappearing. Why try to be smart alec when it can be taken away in a moment. The creator weighs in but never is angry as we are his and he is ours. The creator so weighs and one in synch from awareness within becomes knowledgeable about self and with grace of the creator comes to know the creator. Such finds their proper place in the realm of the creator’s creation.


Plain language AKA SwarnBains ji's style: Folks each life form has a unique awareness that it is created within each. Stop being clever. Understand your inside and you will start to understand God/creator. Once you learn your inside, as you come know of creator's creation then, start living and always remember you were created in a moment and would pass out in a moment too ;)

Note: Here many jumps are also taken by many and so preached too that the creator is inside us or all this merging business. Merging even greatly exaggerated way is like a drop of water claiming that it wants to merge with the ocean. Really!

A manifestation of some of the creator's attributes may be enshrined in each life form in specific ways and there is no need for it to be identical in its manifestation in all. Creator is not a photo copying machine or a cookie cutter, rather there is craftsmanship in all creation.The source creating these specific manifestations in specific physical beings is the same or ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sat Sri Akal
 
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chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Harkiran ji,

Guru Fateh.

I have no idea how much fluent you are in Gurmukhi now but after having looked at the English translation, I am sorry to say that it is totally distorted.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੪
सिरीरागु महला १ घरु ४ ॥
Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4.
Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:
ਏਕਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਜੇਤੇ ਹੈ ਜੀਅ
एका सुरति जेते है जीअ ॥
Ėkā suraṯ jeṯe hai jī▫a.
There is one awareness among all created beings.
What do you understand by One Awareness?
The original in Gurmukhi does not say One Awareness.


ਸੁਰਤਿ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕੀਅ

सुरति विहूणा कोइ न कीअ ॥
Suraṯ vihūṇā ko▫e na kī▫a.
None have been created without 'this' awareness.
What is the difference between one awareness and this awareness?

ਜੇਹੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਤੇਹਾ ਤਿਨ ਰਾਹੁ

जेही सुरति तेहा तिन राहु ॥
Jehī suraṯ ṯehā ṯin rāhu.
As is their awareness, so is their way.
If there is one awareness then what does their mean here?
ਲੇਖਾ ਇਕੋ ਆਵਹੁ ਜਾਹੁ ॥੧॥
लेखा इको आवहु जाहु ॥१॥
Lekẖā iko āvhu jāhu. ||1||
According to the account of our actions, we come and go in reincarnation. ||1||
How do you understand the above pankti which mentions reincarnation?
It does not say anything about reincarnation in original in Gurmukhi. It just says one is born and one dies.

ਕਾਹੇ ਜੀਅ ਕਰਹਿ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ
काहे जीअ करहि चतुराई ॥
Kāhe jī▫a karahi cẖaṯurā▫ī.

Why, O soul, do you try such clever tricks?

In original, it says -Person- Not Soul

ਲੇਵੈ ਦੇਵੈ ਢਿਲ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
लेवै देवै ढिल न पाई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Levai ḏevai dẖil na pā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Taking away and giving back, God does not delay. ||1||Pause||



After understanding what you have gathered from this Shabad with your understanding, then only I can show you where the translation is distorted and/or misleading which affects one's owns understanding about this beautiful poetry. And this is just the first stanza and the Rahao of the Shabad I used just as an example.

Thanks.

Tejwant Singh

is there really that much of a distortion here?

there is one awareness...and through the illusion of the 'many' forms, it appears as though there is more than one...but there is only one

:)
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
is there really that much of a distortion here?

there is one awareness...and through the illusion of the 'many' forms, it appears as though there is more than one...but there is only one

:)
chazSingh ji thanks for your post. You well observed the essence of the shabad.

In terms of posting we need to be mindful of the fact that posting has possible two impacts.

First, one posts to clarify for oneself to understand or link to our internal awareness. This has little impact in general to all other than to how we react with them consequently of that.

The second impact is on the readers and others one interacts with through one's posts. This should be an area of due diligence. In some posts there is an effort to prove others that they don't get it (one approach taken by some posters); or that a general answer covers everything (goal mole) when a subject or discussion is on some specific aspects. This will usually come about when ego comes between what we need to learn versus trying to say how I understand it is correct. Here we can mislead, misdirect and also damage ourselves by putting ourselves into I am right and look I proved it so mode. This is counter-productive from what I know and certainly shouldn't be there if one really understands the creator's imprinted awareness in each one of us. This awareness is the same when we were born and be the same when we die but our understanding of it may get cloudy at time.

The following shabad almost entirely and amazingly in different words tries to convey the same message as in the referred to shabad above.


The following with the same shabad but with the onscreen translation which does not do justice to the shabad but in all honesty probably allowed the translator to understand the essence of the shabad. However if you take literally the translation we would get directed into waves, frequencies, light as has been seen in some other threads. So it amply clarifies the diligence we should engage in when publishing impacting statements or materials.


For those who like it raw;






Sat Sri Akal
 
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Original

Writer
SPNer
chazSingh ji thanks for your post. You well observed the essence of the shabad.

In terms of posting we need to be mindful of the fact that posting has possible two impacts.

First, one posts to clarify for oneself to understand or link to our internal awareness. This has little impact in general to all other than to how we react with them consequently of that.

The second impact is on the readers and others one interacts with through one's posts. This should be an area of due diligence. In some posts there is an effort to prove others that they don't get it (one approach taken by some posters); or that a general answer covers everything (goal mole) when a subject or discussion is on some specific aspects. This will usually come about when ego comes between what we need to learn versus trying to say how I understand it is correct. Here we can mislead, misdirect and also damage ourselves by putting ourselves into I am right and look I proved it so mode. This is counter-productive from what I know and certainly shouldn't be there if one really understands the creator's imprinted awareness in each one of us. This awareness is the same when we were born and be the same when we die but our understanding of it may get cloudy at time.

The following shabad almost entirely and amazingly in different words tries to convey the same message as in the referred to shabad above.


The following with the same shabad but with the onscreen translation which does not do justice to the shabad but in all honesty probably allowed the translator to understand the essence of the shabad. However if you take literally the translation we would get directed into waves, frequencies, light as has been seen in some other threads. So it amply clarifies the diligence we should engage in when publishing impacting statements or materials.




Sat Sri Akal
Amabarsaria Ji

After a hard days work there is nothing better than surrendering to a shabd well sung. The latter of the two you pasted took me to a different level, much needed trust me. The sweet n soft melody, pitched perfectly, funnelled deep within the soul produced an "awww ha" feeling. It was magic ! Credit must surely go to Veer TSM for pushing you to such extraordinary boundaries of excellence to get you to rebutt so beautifully, ha !

The first shabd, I believe is sung by Alam Lohar [?].

As regards the discussion above, the poet Rumi said something along the lines, "...on the other side of the river [death], there is a field, meet me there. There is no right n wrong, good n bad, this n that, you n me, but, just us, two peas [sound n light] in the pod of eternity"

Goodnight n Godbless
 
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Harkiran Kaur

Leader

Writer
SPNer
Reminds me of a song that still gives me chills...

Is it a kind of dream,
Floating out on the tide,
Following the river of death downstream?
Oh, is it a dream?

There's a fog along the horizon,
A strange glow in the sky,
And nobody seems to know where you go,
And what does it mean?
Oh, is it a dream?

Bright eyes,
Burning like fire.
Bright eyes,
How can you close and fail?
How can the light that burned so brightly
Suddenly burn so pale?
Bright eyes.

Is it a kind of shadow,
Reaching into the night,
Wandering over the hills unseen,
Or is it a dream?

There's a high wind in the trees,
A cold sound in the air,
And nobody ever knows when you go,
And where do you start,
Oh, into the dark.

Bright eyes,
burning like fire.
Bright eyes,
how can you close and fail?
How can the light that burned so brightly
Suddenly burn so pale?
Bright eyes.
 

Sherdil

Writer
SPNer
if you reverse the equation of Life....Ik Ong Kaar... we have to go from the Kaar (creation) with the aid of the Ong (sound, Shabad Guru), to the Ik...

Ji, I agree with the overall idea of your comment. It isn't wrong, but I would like to offer a point of clarification that might benefit the sangat:

Kar doesn't signify creation, nor is it employed as a verb. Kar is a suffix, which functions as a pointer to the beginning part of the word.

Ekankar = The numeral 1
Oangkar = The syllable Oang
Kakkar = The letter K, as in the 5 kakkars (5 K's) of the Khalsa

In no particular order:

1. Kes - Unshorn hair
2. Kanga - Comb
3. Kara - Bracelet
4. Kirpan - Small sword
5. Kachera - Undershorts
 
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Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
from my own personal experience so far, i would say sound, anhad bani, shabad, shabad guru, anhad naad...whatever you want to call it is very important in the process of full experience of the 'ik'. Although i am only skimming the surface of this journey thus far, Sound always seems to play a part...

if you reverse the equation of Life....Ik Ong Kaar... we have to go from the Kaar (creation) with the aid of the Ong (sound, Shabad Guru), to the Ik...

hency why in Gurbani it says to attach your consciousness \ attention \ dyan to the shabad..
chazSingh ji you are a good person and this is not personal.

Logic will always fail anyone who tries to put creator in a box. Whether it is anhad or rock music, it does not matter. Let us apply logic.

If I lose my hearing and ability to experience anhad, I am doomed as this is what was leading me on a golden path? The answer of course will be that you are still as capable. Conversely my focus on one concept as the golden key was flawed, of course.

As long as we don't try to put and confine the big in the little sandbox of our mind, all is good. However, if we don't do that bhatkana/wandering starts and we choose this way or that way and aimlessly consume ourselves.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Original

Writer
SPNer
Evening Everyone,

Ambarsaria Ji, as always it's a pleasure to be typing away to a likeminded community. If Chaz Ji is good, by what measure of the word "good" do you arrive at such an attribute, ha ?

Re the above dialogue [#36] it's interesting to look at Page 139 SGGSJ, particularly that in bold: ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੨ ॥ ਅਖੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਵੇਖਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕੰਨਾ ਸੁਨਣਾ ॥ ਪੈਰਾ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਚਲਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਹਥਾ ਕਰਣਾ ॥ ਜੀਭੈ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਇਉ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਣਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿ ਕੈ ਤਉ ਖਸਮੈ ਮਿਲਣਾ ॥੧॥

Anhad shabd [AS] is a state of "becoming" - it is an experience out of time n space. That is to say, you cannot describe or ascribe, only experience and I wouldn't endorse it an exclusive zone. Anyone and everyone, from prince to pauper, sinner to saint and the good, bad n the ugly - all have equal access. More so, situation n circumstance of one's personal life endeavours that enables one to experience rather than a clear cut enterprise of calculation n consequence.

If that'd be correct then it follows that beyond time n space is AS [God] and how true coz Baba Nanak Ji speaks of the same thus,॥ ਸੰਬਤਿ ਸਾਹਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਕਰਿ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਤੇਲੁ ॥ ਦੇਹੁ ਸਜਣ ਅਸੀਸੜੀਆ ਜਿਉ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸਿਉ ਮੇਲੁ ॥੩॥ page 12 SGGSJ - "sohila" [..meet my beloved, meaning become 1 with Anhad Shabd at the time of death of the body]. This is evident in Sikh procedural when Kitan Sohila is read out as the final prayer before cremeation.

Goodnight -
 

Sherdil

Writer
SPNer
Seems like a bunch of words are used to define what cannot be defined with words.

We are only defining terminology used in Gurbani

Nirgun = Without attributes
Nirankar = Without form
Ajooni = Without birth
Nirbhou = Without fear
Nirvair = Without rival
Akaal = Without death (timeless)
Anaad = Without beginning
Anahat = Without end

Through negation, a description emerges.

The Shabadh is the only "word" that will allow you to "know" this description with you.

The following appeared in post # 25:

ਓਨਮ ਅਖਰ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
ओनम अखर सुणहु बीचारु ॥
Onam akẖar suṇhu bīcẖār.
Listen to the Message of the Universal, Imperishable Creator Lord.

ਓਨਮ ਅਖਰੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
ओनम अखरु त्रिभवण सारु ॥१॥
Onam akẖar ṯaribẖavaṇ sār. ||1||
The Universal, Imperishable Creator Lord is the essence of the three worlds. ||1||

Akhar means word. Onam Akhar refers to Oangkar (the syllable Oang).
 

chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
If I lose my hearing and ability to experience anhad, I am doomed as this is what was leading me on a golden path? The answer of course will be that you are still as capable. Conversely my focus on one concept as the golden key was flawed, of course.

Ambarsaria ji

thank you for the reply...

what makes you think you only need your physical ears to hear\experience anhaad shabad\bani?

really you are limiting your existence to only your 5 senses...

when gurbani talks of your inner vision...or when it mentions things like......attach your 'consciousness' to the shabad....why do you only think this means using your physical ears?

:)

can i see god if i am blind....can i hear waheguru if i am deaf...can i experience waheguru if i cannot tough...or smell.....of course i can...because my consciousness is far beyond those limitations...

God Bless
 
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