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Defination Of Patit/Fallen From Sikhhood

Jul 30, 2004
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Gurfateh

Das underwent the study of Maryada of Tenth Master in Dasham Granth in Farsi and Updesh or discouorse by him in Sarbloh Granth.

In former the linacy viz a viz 5ks is writtan while discourse in latter is given for Trye Mudra wearing Sikhs ie Kachchh Kes Kirpan.

In former there was no word caled Khalsa while in both Amrit or Baptism or Pahul is not mentioned.

das belongs to order of Nirmalas made before Khalsa itself at paonta Sahib where 5 ks are not must and so iss with Udasis after Son of first Master yet all do keep Uncut hairs.

So das can say that a person who has not underwent baptism but has kept 5ks with his own will after removing them can be termed as falen from Sikhi.

But say if some one is born in Sikh family and in childhood when heshe is unable to understand he/she is told to keep Hairs or even if in childhood or on age when person is inacpable to decide best way for him,then even if that person undergoes baptism(in childhood).

Even if baptised in childhod if such person who becomes Sikh without own consent ,if he/she removes Hairs HE/She Can NOT NOT be termed as patit.
 
Aug 27, 2005
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devinesanative
I am what you call a "Hindu" but I prefer the name Sanatana Dharma. I would never say my path is best nor have I heard others say that. What I do say is that this path is best for me.
Om shanti shanti Om
 

Amerikaur

SPNer
Feb 19, 2005
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America
Namaste Satyaban Ji

Your thoughts echo others. When my sister and I were growing up, our parents would never talk about religion as a superlative, simply as a belief. My mother in particular was very strict about never referring to another faith as something superior or inferior.

When we came across something that was different than what we as a family observed, she described everything as "what some Jewish families believe" or "what some Coptic families believe"

If we asked her if another faith's activity was wrong, or not good, she never answered that question. She would say that we don't believe that way, or she would say that not all families are alike, but she would never pass judgement.

Of course, you can say in a few words to say what takes me 4 paragraphs........

It is good to see you again. Hope you keep posting.
 
Aug 27, 2005
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Baltimore Md USA
Namaste Amerikaur,
I look at other faiths and I see that they worship God. The name that one uses is not important except to identify their school of thought. I use the name Shiva but names are a human invention. I also see that they believe that there is only one creator. I believe we all worship "That One". When I look at these things I see nothing I do not believe.

Our paths may begin at different points entangle, cross or diverge on the way but all have the same destination.

Some see the metaphor differently but that does not affect the commonality where my respect resides.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
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Gurfateh

Das got a great work by our Memeber Bhai Harbanslal Ji which is posted below

Who is an apostate?

The term, apostate, has been used in a religious sense since the beginning of institutionalized religionism. One who once held a faith but has since renounced it is considered an apostate in every religion. For the purpose of relating to this term the holding of a faith is ritualized by a ceremony of initiation or baptism in every religion. In contrast, those who are practicing a religion at any stage prior to a specific initiation or the ultimate adherence to a religious infrastructure are never considered apostates. They are rather labeled as aspirants to full conversion.
More recently a great concern has been voiced in Sikh circles that the apostasy is on a rise. Many Sikh leaders have promoted many conferences and institutes. Many pages of Sikh press are assigned towards remorse on this real or perceived wave of apostasy. A concern such as this is not anything regretful. Such would be an expression of a religious community who is vibrant, and would exhibit a commitment to be the responsible doorkeepers of a religion. Therefore, the prevailing situation, should it be ascertained to be valid in Sikh community, indeed needs a serious attention and analysis.
This letter is not to argue about numbers or the statistics on apostasy among the Sikhs. Rather it is to draw attention to a certain growing but a genuine psychology of the community, which is leading to many local and national conflicts. The holocaust of 1984, and its aftermath is a source of a real concern to every Sikh. Our community’s pre-occupation with collecting the ashes of the holocaust has not yet permitted to systematically gather data and assess the exact extent of the damage done with respect to apostasy. There are many horror stories of forcing Sikhs to abandon their form and symbols. This letter is not meant to belittle our grief. Rather it is about the debate on the definition of apostasy that is ongoing in the community.
The purpose of this letter is also not to analyze the extent of the prevalence of apostasy, which is a matter deserving separate treatment. Rather, the point we wish to make is one of the misplaced emphases on the matter. There is no denying the fact that there may be some prevalence of apostasy among the Sikhs. However, by and large the Sikhs, who take Amrit appropriately and after appropriate preparation for commitment to its goals, do not denounce the Amritdhari discipline with any significant frequency. They are seen diligently adhering to the life style of an Amritdhari even in the face of many odds and difficulties. They value their mission of serving their Guru with their head they had offered for the purpose without any reluctance. However, those who do renounce those commitments once they had reached their adherence are certainly apostates. However, you do not see very many such apostates. Amrit and a conscious commitment to it are such a strong motivation and a drive that rarely any one is seen renouncing it. Further, there is an abundance of social pressure and support from the community that discourage any Amritdhari to fall to apostasy. As a matter of fact, an absolute number of the Amritdhari Sikhs has been increasing with every decade of the Sikh history. We see this in our Gurdwara every day even in the west. Then, where lies the problem?
The problem lies in the definition of an apostate. There are many more Sikhs who may long to reach the commitment of an Amritdhari, but have not done it. Some of them were born in Sikh families and many more came over from other faiths. They are Sikhs but not yet Amritdhari Sikhs. Rather they are at various distinct steps and stages of practicing a Sikh life. Among the Sikhs they will be known as Sehaj-dhari if they have not yet taken to carrying the five Sikh Ks, all in an un-tampered form. The problem is that some of our scholars and leader have labeled them mistakenly as apostates. Most of the recent scare is about them, rather than those who were once Amritdhari and have denounced its tenets since then. This is particularly true outside the Punjab state of India. Outside Punjab, there is a larger number of Amritdhari Sikhs now than at any other time of the Sikh history. In larger Gurdwara such as one in Vancouver, Yuba City, San Jose, Los Angeles, London, or New York, where there was no Amritdhari Sikh among the office bearers only a few years ago, the managing committees today consist almost totally of Amritdhari Sikhs. Similarly those who were born of Sikh parents but have yet not embraced Sikhism are increasingly claiming their allegiance to the Sikh community. Some time they are hooted upon but this is only a misguided attitude, the Sikh ethics do not permit this treatment of any one. In contrast, the frequency of those from other faiths who are attracted towards Sikhism from time to time has been decreasing steadily. This should be the real concern of those who wish to play a part in propagating their faith in the 21st century.
All those who are in the pipeline for becoming an Amritdhari Sikh, but have not done so yet, are certainly Sikhs but in no way apostate no matter how far they are from committing themselves to an Amritdhari life. It is fruitless to call them apostates because such an attitude from our religious elite comes in their way of progressing towards their cherished goal of being a Sikh. In the way of their commitment they continuously and publicly announce to believe in Sikh tenets exactly as required of them by the presently promoted Sikh Rehat Maryada (see the definition of a Sikh in SGPC Rehat Maryada). This should be continuously encouraged. To be intolerant towards them is going against the lofty traditions promoted by the Gurus and to continue to do so will be against the Guru’s teachings in word and essence. Pronouncing them to be apostate or inferior akin to untouchables only exhibit arrogance and intolerance on the part of those who are self professed guardians of the faith. It only shows that such a Sikh does not pay attention to many of the Guru’s commandments of tolerance and eradication of prejudices, does not see God in every one or show love and compassion towards those who take first step towards the faith. They fail to realize that the Guru promised to come thousands of steps to embrace them.
To be militant, hateful or abusive of a person, who has yet not met all the commitments of a fully knighted Amritdhari life, is a disservice to the faith. It is a disservice because this attitude will be counter-productive in the end. It has a potential of repelling a would-be convert who may even start to treat with contempt of a faith that is perceived as insecure enough to need such tactics. Rather, efforts are needed to welcome more of such aspiring Sikhs. We must welcome them in the kinship and provide support to their soul. They will need our support and encouragement so that they can fight many other cognitive, intellectual and political obstacles. They are going to face numerous obstacles and pressures by discarding the faith they once practiced or the one they were born in and began inching forward towards their new faith, the Gurmat. The Guru will bless those who assist the Sikh aspirants. This way the Sikhs become tool of the Guru’s mission and work towards its expansion in times to come.


Gurbaksh Singh, PhD
Harbans Lal, PhD
__________________
(Bhai) Harbans Lal
 
Sep 11, 2005
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According to Defensive Attitude Which is inherent in Human beings . We call the others with imperfections as patit because we want to defend the religion , beliefs etc .

All are patit coz ,

1. Every one Breaks the Intregrity
2. No Belief in what is preached and what is practised.
3. Scarcity Mentality
4. Immaturity

According to the Non-Defensive Attitudue , as per the SGGS .

"Hum nahin Change , Bura Nahin Hoi"

Then No one is Patit .

Why this line is practised Selectively ?

"Hum nahin Change , Bura Nahin Hoi"
 

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