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Considering Leaving Sikhism Due To Kirpan

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
Veera (means brother)
In the UK there is a provision in the law for baptised Sikhs only to wear a Kirpan, maybe that is why Sir Harry pointed it out.
You don't need to worry about reading about the articles of faith yet ,just learn about the Sikh faith so that you may better represent the faith. Take care my dear Lion in the making. Our Guru taught us to be brave and to be bold ,but I don't think he wants us to be blunt.
 
Kelly Singh ji.

I have just read this entire thread and I have a few comments and ideas.

First, the only one who has the right to say you are or are not a Sikh is YOU. (I am assuming that you are not practicing some other religion, as well. That is the one outward objective sign that would disqualify anyone from being a Sikh.)

Second, you are not a Khalsa. That title is reserved only for those who have received amrit through amrit sanchar and haven't broken any of the 4 taboos. You are very likely to anger the real Khalsa if you hold yourself out as one of us. Don't do that. You can live according to the Khalsa lifestyle, if you wish. It is a very good way of life for those who have chosen it. You can carry the kirpan just as any Sikh can, subject to all the same hassles we all live with.

A kirpan is not a kirpan based on its construction or what it looks like. It is a kirpan based on how it is regarded and how it is used. I can have the most beautifully crafted orthodox-looking kirpan and it ceases to be a kirpan when I use it as a weapon for any purpose except defence, mine or another person's. Conversely, an ordinary knife can become a kirpan if it is used in defence. However, where the police are concerned, it is best to have a kirpan that looks like the usual kirpan.

Third, your statement
i have nothing else to read or learn about the 5k
is grossly incorrect. I have been a Sikh all my life, almost 60 years, and I still have much to learn about the 5Ks and their meanings. There is a wealth of knowledge and insight there that cannot be exhausted.

Fourth, may I talk to you personally, as an older sister? No one here is trying to judge or condemn you. We are all here to help. We all have other things to do. There are many things I could be doing on my Sunday afternoon other than writing to you. Some of your ideas show either a lack of knowledge or a lack of understanding on your part. These wrong ideas need to be corrected, for your sake and also for the sake of the sangat. No one likes being corrected, especially publicly, but you must expect it when you write in a forum like this. Please try not to be defensive. You are not under attack.

We Sikhs tend to be arguers and debaters. That is just the way we are. You cannot change it, nor should you. This is one of our great strengths. We are real people. Very few of us are sants and even sants make mistakes. Sometimes we get out of hand, which is one reason we have moderators. I see nothing here that steps outside of the boundaries of common civility. Obviously, neither do the moderators.

Please consider everything I have written in a spirit of love and welcome to the real Sikh world.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Veera (means brother)
In the UK there is a provision in the law for baptised Sikhs only to wear a Kirpan, maybe that is why Sir Harry pointed it out.
You don't need to worry about reading about the articles of faith yet ,just learn about the Sikh faith so that you may better represent the faith. Take care my dear Lion in the making. Our Guru taught us to be brave and to be bold ,but I don't think he wants us to be blunt.

The GURU says..That one is a DONKEY..who is "proud" sans Gunns....sans MERIT. That Nar (human) is a asal KHAR (Real "donkey") gunn bin garab karant....Note the word used is ASAL KHAR..( that means DONT Blame the real natural donkey becasue thats how nature made it to be)..the REAL "donkey" is a Human. Lots of times the Guru is BLUNT because thats real life.....not make beleive do goody goody soft pedalling lollypop style ....the KHALSA is FORGED of STEEL..and steel is never made via mollycoddling/softpedalling....and a KHANDA thast needs sharpening has to be put to the GRIND STONE hwereby SPARKS FLY..Khalsa soee jo nit kareh JANG means fight the INTERNAL weaknesses..Jios..and only the strong can battle the IW.
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

Writer
SPNer
Second, you are not a Khalsa. That title is reserved only for those who have received amrit

I have some doubts about that. Taking Amrit is more like the first step. Maybe like a resolve. Who is Khalsa? That is tough question to answer, probably as tough as describing Waheguru completely. Khalsa may be a reflection of purity and perfection in human form. When Guru Gobind Singh says Khalsa Mero Roop Hai Khaas, it tells you of the unlimited greatness that Guru saw of Khalsa in His Eyes.

You can carry the kirpan just as any Sikh can, subject to all the same hassles we all live with.

What hassles? I think within all governments and countries, there is a notion that no common man should be able to take the right to self-determination and self-defence. That is what Kirpan stands for. People will be unhappy with you.

Third, your statement
Quote:
i have nothing else to read or learn about the 5k
is grossly incorrect. I have been a Sikh all my life, almost 60 years, and I still have much to learn about the 5Ks and their meanings. There is a wealth of knowledge and insight there that cannot be exhausted.

Supporting this point, I would like to add that each part of Sikhi is an unlimited reserve of knowledge and learning, yes the learning never stops!
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
first i appreciate the helpful comments on here, but to others who seem judgemental, dont judge me. only god can. I do grasp what each mean of the 5k. my favorite is kara. it reminds me of my slave to god and to want to do his will. ive been through alot as a sikh. i have been to jail,strip searched, finger printed, charged with a crime i didnt do all because i chose to follow best i could to the letter. and while i did win, i went through all that for my faith. so before you judge me, look at all i been through and then say something. i dont like to be judged. altho i am considering moving some where to hopefully avoid all this again. where i live ppl are not very educated on religions out side of christianity or islam. ive even tried to request items/brouchures ect to try and educate the police,courts ect.. let me tell you this, sit in a jail cell being charged with felony ccw facing up to 5 years in prison away from your family,kids ect and try not feel as i do. i came out with my head up but yet still have that lingering fear...
Kellysingh veer thanks for your post.

I admire your perseverance through adversity. If you had this persona and were with Mai Harinder Kaur jis family in 1984, you would have been attacked.

It is a very bold step to start having the external persona of a Sikh Lion. Lot of people feel threatened, some feel their edge is lost as someone stood up to them, and the list is very long. There were many Sikhs who lost their lives before 1699, perhaps many looked like you before the Birth of the Khalsa that Guru Gobind Singh ji initiated. Kirpan took official visualization within Sikhism before 1699 through Guru Hargobind Sahib ji. The seeds of a martial Sikhism were such sown.

You have taken a good step forward so continue the inner journey to same level of completion. Then top all of it off with official union with rest of Singhs and Kaurs in a Baptization through Five Loved ones when you are ready.

One day many will be proud of you. I already am.

All the best and take care.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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Kanwaljit Singh ji,

First you quote me and respond:

IK:Second, you are not a Khalsa. That title is reserved only for those who have received Amrit through amrit sanchar and haven't broken any of the 4 taboos.

KS:I have some doubts about that. Taking Amrit is more like the first step. Maybe like a resolve. Who is Khalsa? That is tough question to answer, probably as tough as describing Waheguru completely. Khalsa may be a reflection of purity and perfection in human form. When Guru Gobind Singh says Khalsa Mero Roop Hai Khaas, it tells you of the unlimited greatness that Guru saw of Khalsa in His Eyes.
None of us is khalsa (pure). Here I am explicitly speaking of Khalsa as a title that one receives upon taking Amrit. Thgat is why I qualified it with the phrase "That title." Whether the new Khalsa grows toward being khalsa is up to the individual and the grace of Guru ji.

Then we go on :
IK: You can carry the kirpan just as any Sikh can, subject to all the same hassles we all live with.

KS: What hassles? I think within all governments and countries, there is a notion that no common man should be able to take the right to self-determination and self-defence. That is what Kirpan stands for. People will be unhappy with you.
In Canada, have you already forgotten the Sikhs who were not allowed into the Quebec Parliament building with their kirpans; followed by a push by some Parti Quebecois members to ban kirpans in the Federal Parliament?

In the USA where I live, especially since 911, we have been increasingly hassled and even murdered because, as visible Sikhs, to Americans, we look like Muslims. For hassles specifically about the kirpan, I urge you to visit the Sikh Coalition, SALDEF and United Sikhs websites and look for legal problems with kirpans people have had. I mostly know North America. I'm sure people from other countries could give more examples.
 
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Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
so you sir harry, are wrong, i did stand up for my faith. it was not a dagger. i did stand up for sikhs everywhere who have been through or gone through what i did.i know because i spoken to united sikh and sikh coalition. let me tell YOU harry, YOU DO NOT have to be initiated sikh to wear all 5k. any sikh can wear all 5k. that is truth, try reading up on your faith brother before tellin me what i can and cannot wear or what my situation was. you were not there.

Kellyji

No, you do not have to be initiated sikh to wear all 5k, however your limited knowledge on basic Sikhi means that firstly you will be passing yourself of as a Khalsa, when you are not, and secondly, as your mental grasp of Sikhi will not be in tandem with your physical show of Sikhi, lets just say you had to use that dagger, how would you use it? You would look like a Khalsa, but you cannot act like a Khalsa, in the same way that if I decide to wear a Karate Black Belt, it does not make me a Black Belt, at some point, looking like I do, with my big black belt, I am going to get mistaken for a real Black Belt, and what am I supposed to say? 'Oh Im just in training, I thought I would start with the belt..',

Having said all that, if you wish to pursue your love for Sikhi in whatever way you wish to do so, then no one , including me, has the right to tell you what to do, and when to do it.

I do not keep my hair, I drink, my 'marriage' has not been blessed by Anand Karaj, so I am sure there are plenty of people that could take offence at my lifestyle, in the same way I have taken a slight offence at yours, but thats natural, none of us are the same,

You asked us for our thoughts, our thoughts are pointless if they are just paying lip service, I hope the broad line of opinions is enough to help you carry on your path, We all need and want something different from Creator, I hope you find what it is your looking for,

Best Wishes
 
kellysingh ji
I can understand that you are going through a very difficult time. Thought of leaving religion is an extreme one and i hope Almighty gives you strength to hold on.
Since you want to wear a kirpan and considering it is not to be used in any sort of a fight or battle I suggest you wear a small one, a few cms in size or even smaller as a locket around your neck.
By doing such a thing you will be wearing your article of faith and at the same time will not attract the ire of the police.

My grandmother came from a non Sikh family but spent major part of her life as an Amritdhari Sikh. She use to keep all the articles of faith but chose a small kirpan, hardly a cm in size and wore it around her neck as a locket.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
The GURU says..That one is a DONKEY..who is "proud" sans Gunns....sans MERIT. That Nar (human) is a asal KHAR (Real "donkey") gunn bin garab karant....Note the word used is ASAL KHAR..( that means DONT Blame the real natural donkey becasue thats how nature made it to be)..the REAL "donkey" is a Human. Lots of times the Guru is BLUNT because thats real life.....not make beleive do goody goody soft pedalling

Noble Gyani Ji would you agree that a new student should be encouraged first and that he can be reprimanded later if the need arises,perhaps only after he comes to learn exactly what he was supposed to do.As you know the one who is anjaan is not treated like the one who knows as per Gurbani.

I agree with you that the 'Khalsa is forged of metal' but I ask you who does that metal belong to in earnest?
 

hpannu

SPNer
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਿਹ ॥

Dear All - there is no right or wrong answer or a quick fix. Nor should we judge others for their experiences with Sikhi - Sikhi Marg is a long road and one should consider himself lucky if one can see / reach the end of this road (I don't believe there is an end of Sikhi Marg experience, it's a lifetime experience)

Having said that - consider this example of 5 Kakaars. Let's say someone new to Sikhi Marg starts wearing a Kara or Kachera to begin with before embracing Kesh, Kanga or Kirpan. Before going through Amrit Sanchar begining their Khalsa Way of life.

Now how many of us will jump the gun? to say a person should not wear a Kachera or Kara to begin this Sikhi lifestyle. Why do we raise flags when it comes to Kirpan ? perhaps too much prosection going on around the world. Depriving a person of basic human rights to arm himself / to defend himself or others.

We as Sikhs are part to be blamed for our grievances - misuse of Kirpan , chori / thugi, loss of trust. On one hand we say Every person who is born in this world is a SIKH? On the other side we say VIRLA hi koi SIKH hai ( rare is the SIKH of GURU ).

To conclude this - Apne aaap nuuuu Sudharo before preaching to others ( General statement - don't take this in a wrong way )

Forgive me for my mistakes ( Bhulaan nuuu Bakhshan di kirpalta karni ji )

Vahiguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Vahiguru Ji Ki Fatih ॥
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
Mentor
Writer
SPNer
SP ji..I am no more or less "noble" than you ji...we are all equals..learners.
Just calling a kindie student Daktaar sahib is not going to encourage him to stay the course until a PHD is earned...neither is calling him kindie student going to his ending up as a class one dropout...REALITY is always REALITY..the faster we get to know..the faster we get ON with it (our Journey I mean). By the way i distinctly remember my dad calling me nothing besides Arshi sahib..from the day i sat in his class at age 3 or so...and i did go on to earn the "Arshi sahib" from many others...but i dotn think THAT was the reason i have travelled as far as i have along the Gurmatt and worldy path..it happened due to HIS WILL. Mnay of my students have gone on to become real Doctors, surgeons, dentists, professors accountants..a pilot...etc...and i distinctly remember calling quite a few of them donkeys and gadhes when they messed up...
2. Nearly about everyone seems to think that KHALSA is "pure.." etc..and one becomes a Khalsa and hence 110% pure (whatever that means" five seconds after the Panj give the amrit.....as I said the PREPARATION took NINE GURUS almost 200 years...and after vasakhi 1699...HUGE SACRIFICES...much more out of proportion of sikh/khalsa population....so yes its a LONG journey..the preparation is ardous and difficult...and after the ENTRANCE ( SANSKAAR )..the REALITY hits home....purity is a long way away...and it needs blood sweat and tears...its NOT a walk in the Park.
The GURUS didnt teach us to..play the goody man...be POPULAR at all costs to WIN Maximum numbers...( thus Gurmatt promises no Beautiful damsles, rivers of wine and honey, young tender boys as man servants..(lol)..or mansions of gold and silver...Gurmatt means a LONG WALK on the sharp edge of the KHANDA...a SWIM in the deepest ocean...symbolised in the bata full of water and the Khanda in the Amrit ' SANSKAAR"...(ceremony only). People MISS the SANSKAAR part and misinterpret the ceremony as AMRIT which is in reality in the SGGS GURBANI...
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
Gyani Ji only blunt words have to be justified later, it is not needed for kind ones,don't worry I'm not here to become popular, that would require me to agree with the establishment, I think you will find I do the exact opposite.Let us ponder who we are..

ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਇ ਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਪੂਤਾ ॥੧॥
http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani
ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਇ ਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਪੂਤਾ ॥੧॥ ना इसु माइ न काहू पूता ॥१॥ Nā is mā▫e na kāhū pūṯā. ||1|| It is not a mother, or anyone's son. ||1||
 
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lionsingh

SPNer
@Kellysingh

Just carrying the kirpan and equating that to all Sikhism is, is quite frankly silly. You mention that by carrying the Kirpan you feel oppressed and thus want to give up.??? You respect the Gurus you say and then say you wash and clean ??? As you mention "i am not a iniated sikh, i am just a sikh" ???

Why are you a Sikh...I dont have a turban nor kirpan but respect the teachings of the Gurus and moreover love our creator. I dont have to wear the 5Ks as you call them to know our Lord will judge us on our deeds. I question a lot. Its right you do...but to forsake the knowledge in the Granth because you believe that our religion is just based on carrying the Kirpan ? If that is all it means to you then best you leave to reflect. Many many Sikhs do not carry the Kirpan and are blessed and find salvation through the Gurus words. Perhaps you should read the Granth again so you may understand the true meaning of the Kirpan.

Moreover you say you believe in the Gurus..How ? What do you see ?... They were men like us who had wisdom and the love of God, our guides whom were spirituality allowed to see the oneness.

I would like to remind you of the words of Guru Gobind Ji himself

"Those who call me God, will fall into the deep pit of hell. Regard me as one of his slaves and have no doubt whatever about it. I am a servant of the Supreme Being; and have come to behold the wonderful drama of life."

"Shabad Guru” means Shabad is the Guru (Meaning SATNAAM is the GURU. A Shabad refers to each Divine Word of God. And the Source of all Divine Words, the very first Shabad was the Naam – SATNAAM.) And Guru Gobind Singh ji says he is lower than God, (lower than SATNAAM) “ma param purakh ka dasa'…I am a servant of God.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji delivered the scriptures and the Khalsa ..... He said “make no place for my memory, don’t pray to me, I am not God I am SAT RAM DAS (Servant of Eternal Truth : God), you can become like me.”

Sikhism is more than a Kirpan .... and yet you understand not that what was taught. My God guide you to a truth that will be clear.

animatedkhanda1

Understand what the above really means brother...I am still trying to.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Lionji

Very well said, I agree with your sentiments 100%

As for understanding Gurbani, Ambarsariaji is doing some most excellent interpretation of Gurbani, who don't you, and dear kellyji try your hand at some personal interpretation, I did this morning and found the whole experience quite uplifting
 

lionsingh

SPNer
"thus Gurmatt promises no Beautiful damsles, rivers of wine and honey, young tender boys as man servants..()..or mansions of gold and silver."

whenever I mention that I get banned ;-(
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Lionji

We all have to live in society, some aspects of society we may find repugnant, we may not disagree with, but we must always be noble, for it is in being noble we can understand and learn and educate.

Once we cease being noble, we have joined those we find repugnant, and it is repugnance that we will drown in,

People that care for you are saving you from drowning in the very repugnance you find offensive, and attempting to steer you on a path of nobility

your last post I found most noble..........
 

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