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General Concept Of Jhoot (re: Jootha Food)

Ishna

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Thanks Ambarsaria ji and Fingingmyway ji. Sorry for keeping you from your sleep!

On the one hand Gyani ji says a flat out NO to eating leftovers and encourages following the rules if your amritdhari. But then Fingingmyway ji says to interpret them correctly with regards to the spirit of the rules, which I fully agree with.

I would be setting myself so far apart from my family if I was never to share anything with them. I'm western, my entire family couldn't care less about religion, so I find this really difficult to accept.

Findingmyway ji has asked the reasons for not sharing-I haven't a clue why I shouldn't share food with my family in the abovementioned ways. Workmates and friends I will sacrifice. But I don't see the point in kissing my husband and hugging my step children and not being allowed to eat chips from the same bag and have a sip of coke from my hubby's can.

Seems ritualistic, superstitious and absurd to me personally (no offence meant to those who do abide by these practices). Perhaps if I was to join a convent for Sikhs it would be easy, but my understanding is Sikhs are supposed to live in the regular world with their families.

And I think I would be insulting my family if I would only share a bowl of nuts with them if I got the first handfull. Do I think they have germs or something?

Perhaps I am not in line to receive amrit in this life, and if that's the case then that's fine as it's out of my hands. I will continue to live my own little rehat as close to sikhi as I can anyway, given my circumstances.

Sat Sri Akal - the Truth is all that matters anyway.
 

Ishna

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Spnadmin ji, how do you interpret what guruka Singh says in connection with the SRM and sharing food with non-Sikhs (if one is amritdhari)?
 

Randip Singh

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Hello everyone,



I wanted to see people views on the concept of jhoot. To prevent ambiguity let's be clear that the 'jhoot' I refer to is the one often associated with cleanliness and food hygiene. By that I mean that 'jhoot' is food that has been eaten by someone else, food that is 'infected' with saliva.

I was thinking that maybe jhoot is not meant to be taken literally. It was only in the (don't quote me) beginning of the 20th century that people began to take hygiene seriously? I don't really see the harm of eating food that contains jhoot.

As far as spiritual benefits of not avoiding jhoot go, again, if not taken literally, I have noticed that the jhoot contained in my own mind is more poisonous to my being than anything I can put in my mouth. Let's be real about this. If you look at a lot of the social/cultural norms and habits that you carry about, really look hard into them and meditate a lot, you will notice that a lot of what I would call 'jhoot' stains your day-to-day existence.

In the spiritual realm, sure it's all a part of the whole, but the jhoot I refer to is the most impeding.

So my thoughts are, that people who take jhoot to the extreme, and have their own cooking utensils, refuse to eat with non amritdharis and stuff, is taking it a little too far. I would call that narcissism.

And just the other day I saw a amritdhari child getting a veggie burger from a meat takeaway shop where I was eating. I see no problem with that at all. I just hope for his sake that he doesn't get a load of steel utensils and lock himself away from the world some day, that would be stupid.

Your views would be much appreciated...
:interestedmunda:



NinduP

Agree 100%

Trying to prevent the spread of Germs is one thing, but this sort of almost Bramanical stuff that some Sikhs do with Jhoot is utter nonsense.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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There is NO clear cut...Dark black shades to white to brilliant white...we have to look at the underlying principles of what the GURUS are trying to CREATE in US.

1. Brahminsm/Bipparwaad/Panditayah was very very POWERFUL REGULATOR of Human Lives.... ( and STILL IS - just google around what happens in various parts of India bihar, karnatak, tamil nadu, nepal, uttar pardesh etc etc where the LOW Castes live lives worse than animals..a DOG can safely cross the path of a Brahmin and get away maybe with just a curse/loud shout..BUT let that criss-crosser be aLow caste Human..then see what will happen to the unfortunate human - recently there was a news whereby a CHILD of 5 who did the unthinkable - she ran in front of a high caste brahmins open gate to on her way to the fields to releive herself- such a single designated spot far away in the fields was set up and the unwritten Law says..ALL low castes are to go defecate there in the DARKNESS HOURS so that no high caste sees them and be "desecrated" by the sight....well the enraged High caste house owner who was DESECRATED ran out caught the screaming child and threw her into the burning log fire....Today NOT a single perosn ahs ben charged..the child is 90% burned and aged 11+ with absolutley NO LIFE/FUTURE !!...just a TINY molecule worth of HORROR that GURU JI also SAW and tried to COUNTERACT.

2. The AMRITDHAREE ceremony is a PAHUL CEREMONY...and all members commit to certian rules and agree VOLUNTARILY to follow them. NO force or compulsion at all.
I could even be the Commander In Chief of the Armed Forces..and my old father could be just living outside the Camp..hungry and destitute....BUT THERE IS NO PROVISION FOR ME to grant my father permission to eat in the Army Officers MESS - not even IF I PAY for it. Rules are rules. The ARMY MESS is for army personnel. period. Now what will people "think..This fellow is Commander in chief..eating and dining with all the top brass..his father hungry at the Camp gates !! what sort of son is that ?? SO Based on this..can every ones father, mother, son, son-in-law.massee massarr fufarr etc etc etc march IN and eat in the MESS anytime they feel like "SHARING" with their son, etc etc etc..?? even if the SON pays ...it will be a NO.period. Rules.

2. Leave aside the food. For KAAM CONTROL..an Amrtidharee Pahul ceremony the panj Instruct us..TREAT ALL as your mum, sister and daughter....EXCEPT the ONE you married and she’s your one and only WIFE. PERIOD.... AND..not even to let another visit you EVEN IN YOUR DREAMS !! WOW..wow...wow...so strict ah ?? while lying in bed beside my fat ugly legally wedded wife...I...cant even DREAM my fantasies about the DREAM-GIRL that chose Dharmendra and not me??.....what ??? how do i watch TV..Hollywood..Bollywood..the Internet..and NOT "dream" ?at all..Life in Gurus time was so much easier..no hollywoods, no bollywoods and no magazines, internet..etc etc HOW CAN I LIVE up to MY PAHUL ?? COMMITTED ?? Some take the EASY WAY OUT...Chuck the TV OUT..SHUT the Broadband Down...WEAR DARK GLASSES...just in the exact same way the olden days people ran away to the caves, the Himalayas and the HEMKUNT Hill Tops and JUNGLES...ESCAPISM....from Temptation..but TODAY the Laptop penetrates even the deepest Amazon Jungles...and who will you meet in the deepest Amazon..voluptuous naked Indians ?? Then what you DO ?? *** This is based on a personal true story. A long time friend who is a taxi driver ahd a teenage daughter who went “bad”..the sant Ji brahmgyani they consulted replied that its all his fault – you dream about other ladies when you slept with your wife when this daughter was about to be conceived. So the cure now is...(i wont go into the CURE..because its too tantalising and racy..and may give readers ideas ?? ha ha )and the fantastic thing is this man of about 60, well educated to boot..fell for this “cure” and went through the whole jingythingjing with a lady that had also approached the same sant ji with a similar problem..and the sant ji simply CROSS REFERENCED the “two dreamers” with each other to cancel/cure their alleged crime many years ago !! After that he told the two to go to the granthi or gurdwara, look for a particular shabad and have it written down and read 50 times a day...( Thats where I came in..the friend approached me for the Printout of the shabad..and he related to me the story when he wanted my “confirmation” that the shabad could do exactly what he was told by sant ji...i had a very tough time keeping a straight face while i printed the shabad for this man whose father and grandfather were also granthis and who took part in Akhand Paaths and all as well )..well nayway..i digress..back to the topic of JHOOTH...

The First was JHOOTH of the MOUTH...the SECOND is JHOOTH of the EYES.....

There is also JHOOTH of the EARS... JHOOTh of CHARACTER...Mann....and much more....READ ANAND SAHIB...of Guru Amardass Ji who spent over 50 YEARS trudging over stones and uneven paths to DEVI Mandirs...and finally DISCOVERED the real PATH.

BECOMING a KHALSA is no easy or simple task...IF it had been that easy..Guru nanak ji would have had no need to go beyond His own Mission..after ALL EACH of the all the other founders of religions Completed their religions in a FEW YEARS of their lives...ONLY THE KHALSA took over 250 YEARS..way way beyond a Single Life time !!

There are various shades..we ourselves have seen a SIKH BOY with Patka KESH and all...converting because his mum didnt make KHEER good enough..there are so many who wouldnt give two hoots to kheer..BUT would feel that not being allowed to TRIM their beard...cut their hair is such a HEAVY TASK..???? OH..I can be a very GOOD SIKH..if i can just cut my beard a little bit ?/ PLEASE?? can I.?? .I promise to do my nitnem..go to gurdwara...everything..BUT....i cant stand this beard !!! Now which is which ?? The Beard trimmer will be Flabbergasted that the KHEER eater can happily keep his long hair beard etc..what type of sikh is that ?? IF my dad allows me to cut my hair I will give up not only kheer but chocolate etc as well..wow..wow..wow..AND ????

People who draw lines in the SAND..or worse in WATER...and declare..I am a SIKH..this is what real Sikhi is all about..dont realsie their LINES are temporary and for themselves ONLY...not rules for everybody else...SO IF grabbing a FIRST handful of Chips and then instead of enjoying that..one has to be constantly worried what will the others think if i take another chip...thats taking "sikhi" to a very base level-Black vs White and no shades in between...In fact I had a visitor once..he used to be my student, then colleague and then he migrated to canada and became a Bibeki AKJ....meaning they DONT eat anything OUTSIDE of their own hand making. He was coming to meet me after 10 years..and he told me on the phone..I wont be taking anything - not even a glass of water - unless you and your entire family are Bibeki akjs...and he did just that..he sat with us, wrestled with my dogs and all, had a really good time..for at least 10-12 hours 9am to late 8pm..we had rehrass and path hukmnamah...but not a drop to drink - as we are not Bibeki AKJ. He is still the same..except the new standards he set himself...not for me to judge. In the OLDEN DAYS...ALL SIKHS used to have these STANDARDS...when I was a little boy in malaysia, it was considered quite disgraceful for a SIKH man to be seen sitting in a cafe (coffee shop_ restaurant ..eating/ having a drink...)..and then after a decade or so..this "disgrace" was DOWNGRADED to just the LIQUOR SHOP/TODDY SHOP....ordinary coffee shops restaurants became..OK ...not recommended..but ok..not so shameful....TODAY..there is absolutely NO SHAME attached..and SIKHS frequent DISCOS, HOTELS, MASSAGE PARLOURS, drink alcohol openly...and kids ask their parents..OH DAD..you are such a *****..old timer..all my friends will be at the disco..drugs ?? oh everyone takes a bit now a days..drinks ?/ oh If I DONT..all will laugh at me....short skirt..OH Dad I am NOT going to the GURDWARA right ?? LOW CUT..oh Dad..if you have it flaunt it....whats wrong with that..the boys go crazy you know..and i love it...SO WHERE DO WE DRAW the line or CROSS which line ?? Some (like my Bibeki akj convert..) draw it at the HEIGHT of POLE VAULTERS..others (like many of my students) draw it ON THE DISCO....FLOOR !!....MOST (like myself) draw it at about shoulder height...so we can JUMP comfortably and not fall or FEAR jumping. The REAL BEAUTY of the KHALSA is that its all VOLUNTARY !! YOU DRAW the LINE.
 

Ishna

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Oh dear... I'm still not understanding, I'm sorry Gyani ji. I mean no disrespect and I humbly ask for your patience.

How can you have rules without having black-and-white? You can have guidelines which allow shades of grey but rules are rules -- if you break a rule you need to confess to the sangat and receive your punishment. How can there be any personal drawing of the line for a regular SRM Khalsa when the rules are spelled out?

You've said we need to look at what the Guru's were trying to create in us. What is not eating left-overs trying to create in us? Jasleen ji said eating left-overs was a form of worship, which is why Khalsa are told not to do it. That's left-overs.

Moving on to sharing food-- You say that being Khalsa is being part of an army and you don't share army food. What I'm not understanding is how on one hand we're told to be householders, and on the other soldiers, and to eat our food when we're at home with the family as if it is army rations. I've got two images in my mind:

1. one family who are all amritdhari sharing food and having a jolly time.
2. another family where, let's say the eldest son is amritdhari and everyone else isn't. He visits home one day for a birthday or something. His folks are putting on the show. He takes his share of the food first and the rest is for the family, because he doesn't share his rations with non-army personnel, however his dad has purchased the food with his own money and his non-Sikh mum has provided it on a platter for the family to take from.

I don't understand what the moral of the story is. What is Guruji trying to tell me, that I can't share food with my family who isn't amritdhari but I can share food with an amritdhari I've just met who for all I know is a wife-beater.

Or is a more black-and-white definition of SHARING and LEFT-OVERS required to clarify this?

I don't understand why a Sikh eating at a coffee shop is indicative of a slippery slope to drinking alcohol at a pub and wearing immodest clothing.

Again, I apologise that it's taking a while for me to comprehend this.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Ishna Ji..
i think Findingmyway has done a much better job than me in this thread. Read her posts.
The Sharing/not eating leftovers are two different things.
Forcing people to eat Left-overs is a religious tradition in India..the Brahmins always eat first..and the rest lower beings eat later/including leftovers..and the lowest eat last (only leftovers )..or "nothing"... if thats all thats left to eat.
Sharing builds comradeship..family..brotherhood...many Mid eastern arabs, bedouins afghans iranians etc etc eat from the same huge dish in the middle with each person holding hsi own bread and dipping pieces in the common curry/meat. This SHARING in the KHALSA context happens during the Pahul ceremony..and its meant to break down barriers that may exist among the Pahul candidates...one may be a Brahmin and the second may be a Chamaar..BUT once they come together in PAHUL they are BOTH Khalsa Brotherhood and share the karah parshaad and drink form the same one Batta to remove all high-low distinctions.
Once that has happened...i dotn see why the new Khalsa should behave holier than thou with others of hs famaily/friends etc. maybe I wasnt clear or have muddled up the issue for you. Its to break up the Holier than Thou attitude..NOT enforce it...or develop a new one to replace the old one. IF thats how it came through then i am sorry - i hope now its clear. You cna share with your family if you can do it without feeling "superior" holier than them etc.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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sikhs eating out..is a cultural thing..it was just the not IN thing to do...look at that in this context. More to do with the widespread use of tobacco by almost everyone non-sikh...people anted to avoid the chance...
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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And btw..the SRM is NOT an outdated/dated document. Its hardly a 3/4 century old...a single human life time.. Its Language (translated English version ) may be a little outdated/archaic and needs to be clarified. But the Basic Principles expounded in the SRM are soundly based on Gurbani.

2. SRM has been in the sights of the Sants and DERAS. dehdharee Gurus etc since its inception becasue it IMPEDES their dera growth. IF the SRM were dead..each dera snat baba mahapurash would have a field day making up new rules and breaking up old ones on a daily basis..

3. Modern Sikhs have an axe to grind with the SRM simply becasue they cannot keep up with it..and so wnat it watered down..some dont want the emphsasis on hallal meat..becasue they wish they could eat anywhere and anyhow...others dont want the emphasis on Hair..becasue they cant seem to keep beards or kesh or too much to tie dastaar etc...yet others cant get along with the Kirpan..the Kachera..etc...and want all these dropped form the SRM...

Everyone who has an objection to anything has an axe to grind...he/she cannot keep up to the rigid standards and want them softened..watered down..relaxed..to accomodate everyone !!

There is nothing in the SRM that is ultra vires the Gurbani in SGGS.
 

findingmyway

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And btw..the SRM is NOT an outdated/dated document. Its hardly a 3/4 century old...a single human life time.. Its Language (translated English version ) may be a little outdated/archaic and needs to be clarified. But the Basic Principles expounded in the SRM are soundly based on Gurbani.

2. SRM has been in the sights of the Sants and DERAS. dehdharee Gurus etc since its inception becasue it IMPEDES their dera growth. IF the SRM were dead..each dera snat baba mahapurash would have a field day making up new rules and breaking up old ones on a daily basis..

3. Modern Sikhs have an axe to grind with the SRM simply becasue they cannot keep up with it..and so wnat it watered down..some dont want the emphsasis on hallal meat..becasue they wish they could eat anywhere and anyhow...others dont want the emphasis on Hair..becasue they cant seem to keep beards or kesh or too much to tie dastaar etc...yet others cant get along with the Kirpan..the Kachera..etc...and want all these dropped form the SRM...

Everyone who has an objection to anything has an axe to grind...he/she cannot keep up to the rigid standards and want them softened..watered down..relaxed..to accomodate everyone !!

There is nothing in the SRM that is ultra vires the Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


Forgive me if I came across as saying the SRM is not valid-that was not what I was trying to get across at all. I was merely saying that everything in the SRM is according to Gurbani principles so if we ever perceive a conflict it is due to lack of our understanding. It is often worth going back to understand the culture of the time when it was written to fully understand the message as given in my examples. This is especially pertinent as there will be more and more Sikhs living outside India all their lives or even from different backgrounds so they may not automatically understand what the SRM is getting at. As Sikhs, we follow our lives according to Gurbani and the SRM enables us to do that. However, reading the SRM may take more than the literal meaning to fully understand it. Even many legal systems around the world need an understanding of the time when the laws were written to fully understand their application!
 

Seeker9

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Medical practice is outwith my sphere of interest but I will guess that if someone is coughing and sneezing and has say a respiratory virus of some sort..then sharing food may be ill advised!!
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Medical practice is outwith my sphere of interest but I will guess that if someone is coughing and sneezing and has say a respiratory virus of some sort..then sharing food may be ill advised!!

In this instance..even your wife cant share with you !!..let alone some random amritdharee...ha ha.

The BASIC is being left behind....and cursory is being needlessly stressed.
The BASIC foundation of this is different...and ONLY happens ONCE.
 

Ambarsaria

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Medical practice is outwith my sphere of interest but I will guess that if someone is coughing and sneezing and has say a respiratory virus of some sort..then sharing food may be ill advised!!
Isn't it true that you are at state of maximum infection of others before the symptoms show up!

Let me the know the wise ones amongst us who will know such personally (disease before symptoms show up) and avoid other people!

In real life you get some and you give somekaurhug:afriends2:mundahug Ahshooooh!

Sat Sri Akal.winkingmunda
 

spnadmin

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Let's just say for the sake of argument that there was never any threat of infection at any time. Would that make jootha more or less acceptable? Did jootha ever really have anything to do with worry over germs?
 

Ambarsaria

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Let's just say for the sake of argument that there was never any threat of infection at any time. Would that make jootha more or less acceptable? Did jootha ever really have anything to do with worry over germs?
spnadmin ji I am not a sucha-jootha man so cannot answer. I am of the school "Makhi dekh ke nahin nigli jaandi" (You cannot swallow a fly if you llok at it).
How many we eat inadvertently or parts their off anyone's guess. Yukh :shockedmunda:

So if I see gross jootha leftovers of unknown origin I won't go near. But if someone dear next to me finished eating and left in decent shape on their plate I may nibble but very infrequently with a near and dear.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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Spnadmin Ji...the "germs..hygeine..theory etc etc.." are all padding.

Just like when the Babas are asked to explain the water pot covered with red cloth nearby an Akhand Paath/Paath of SGGS..they will say..OH just in case there is a FIRE breaking out..."which is utter and sheer nonsense but never the less a feeble attempt at justification to the "nastik"..BECAUSE the Shardha minded BLIND Followers..they wont even DARE ask such a question form their sant ji...

And what about the RED CLOTH..i added once ...and the sant was doubly quick...Havent you seen what colour they paint the FIRE TRUCKS ??? WOW..he sure caught me on the wrong foot there..clever sant !!

But has a FIRE ever occured..even ONCE ? NO he replied ...even quicker...but it pays to be PREPARED..NO ??..Thats also becasue GURU JI Helps those who help themsleves...so we have this fire fighting ready..GURU JI reciprocates with NO FIRES. End of discussion.

That is NOT to say that the GURUS werent aware of germs hygeine etc..They were.
Guru nanak ji has a Shabad where the IMAGERY used is YOGHURT. In order to have the Best yoghurt form...the Bhandah must be scruplously CLEAN...dried well..placed in the SUNLIGHT...passed through a DHOOP (fragrance smoke)....and then ONLY will the MILK set beautifully into the Best YOGHURT. (Anyone who has had to throw away spoilt unset milk that failed to become Yoghurt will attest that Clean disinfected container is a MUST..as Guru nanak ji sais 500 years ago..long before germs etc became so common (knowledge that is )
 
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