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Caste

Jazz

SPNer
Apr 27, 2005
32
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Birmingham, England, UK
WGJKK WGJKF ....

Moving off at an slight angle, please read below and offer comments ....


Both my Mother and Father believe that all caste differentiation was abolished via Guru Ji, they believe that we are all equal in status, that we are all sikhs.

Fathers view is that Guru Gobind ji made all castes equal, but did not abolish them. My Mothers view is that all castes are equal, and are abolished at time of baptism(amrit).

Furthermore, I would like to ask : Guru Gobind Singh Ji renamed the panj pyare SINGH, why do we have a 'family' name at the end, does this not follow caste identification?

Can I have your comments please.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
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Gurfateh

Brother Amritpal Singh of Amritworld has views like that of your father but das has more support for your mmothers views.

Gurus did convert mnay Muslims also.Say Sayyads of Gildiyals near Rawal Pindi ie ancestors of great scholar Sher Singh Kashmeer(who proved that Dasham Granth is from Tenth Master),Baheemi was converted to Ajmeer Singh,Whole Nihungs were from Shias.

So we know that no caste could be assigned to them.
 

drkhalsa

SPNer
Sep 16, 2004
1,308
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Dear Friend

As I understand using your family name for what ever reason created confusion and could lead to discrimination at some point and definately it represents the sense of attachment to somebody else beside our Spirtual father ( Guru Gobind Singh Ji) whether it is your great grandfathers , ancester or inherit ego inside you .

Said so I dont want to mean that people all who dont use surmane are without ego but still it is much simpler and promotes unity in Sikh Panth



Jatinder Singh
 

Randip Singh

Writer
Historian
SPNer
May 25, 2005
2,935
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Jazz said:
WGJKK WGJKF ....

Moving off at an slight angle, please read below and offer comments ....


Both my Mother and Father believe that all caste differentiation was abolished via Guru Ji, they believe that we are all equal in status, that we are all sikhs.

Fathers view is that Guru Gobind ji made all castes equal, but did not abolish them. My Mothers view is that all castes are equal, and are abolished at time of baptism(amrit).

Furthermore, I would like to ask : Guru Gobind Singh Ji renamed the panj pyare SINGH, why do we have a 'family' name at the end, does this not follow caste identification?

Can I have your comments please.

Guru Gobind Singh ji said:

Manaas Ki Jaat Ehk Pachano

Recognise the Human Race as One

Here Jaat means race. It can also mean caste, creed and gender. I don't think I need to elaborate further than that.:wah:

If you are recognising your fellow human as somehow inferior or a different type of Human than you then you have no place in Sikhism.

Guruji abolished castism, racism and sexism in one swift blow when those swords tudded in the tent and the Panj Pyarey were baptised.

As for surname......I think that is done for practical purposes. Even Guru Gobind Singh Ji acknowledges in the Dasam Granth his lineage.....but he also acknowledges that in the bigger picture it does not matter one iota.
 
May 10, 2006
52
1
Caste has been misinterpreted as being hereditary whereas Krishna states clearly
in the Bhagavad Gita that caste is a classification of people's potential. A single
family might have children with qualities that are suitable for Brahmins, Kshatri-yas,
Vaishyas, or Shudras.

A child interested in academics can be said to have Brahminical qualities; the one
wanting to join the armed forces can be said to be Kshatriya-like, the one who
prefers business has Vaishya gunas and the one who likes serving has Shudra gunas.

You might even find more than one trait in one person. Microsoft's Bill Gates,
for instance, can be said to be of quadri-caste since his functions and aptitude
contain elements of all four castes.

Attributing everything in Creation as being dominated by three gunas saatvic,
rajasic and tamasic Krishna says that all beings are under the influence of these gunas.

The three qualities determine our intelligence, emotions, behaviour, actions, habits,
impul-ses, everything. Unlike other life forms, human beings have the capability
to hone and polish specific skills and qualities. Krishna the perfect counsellor
tells us which vocation to follow to gain the ultimate goal of self-realisation.

For example, there are nine functional qualities of a Brahmin as enumerated by Krishna:
serenity, self-control, austerity, purity, forgiveness, simplicity, scriptural proficiency,
spiritual attainment and adherence to theological principles (18.42).

A competent warrior must have qualities of heroism, resplendence, and fortitude (18.43).

When rajoguna is mixed with tamoguna it gives birth to Vaishya-like qualities, says Krishna,
and they pertain to agriculture, animal husbandry, and commerce.

Some are naturally interested in service, and so are suitable for those professions that
require a predominantly service-component. Whatever one's potential and interest,
the ultimate aim is self-realisation, and not self-gratification. These qualities do not
bestow any special status on anyone; they are not even hereditary.

Krishna states: "The four divisions have been created by Me according to the
classifications based on natural qualities and functioning but in this act know
Me as the immutable, Non-doer" (4.13).

There is no nobility in these divisions, as they are merely functional.

The aim of life being self-realisation, the two pillars which help this are varna and ashram.
Varna based on natural tendencies can help in deciding the appropriate field of activity
which would help in achieving the goal of life.

To consider oneself superior or inferior is not sanctioned by shastras for such a perception
leads to self-degradation. One who is born in a trader's family, for instance, might have
an advantage due to environmental parameters but there can be exceptions.

The most important factor in choosing a profession is one's natural aptitude.
Choosing a profession one likes or for which one has the aptitude gives inner
satisfaction and leads to self-realisation.

Thanks.
 

Jazz

SPNer
Apr 27, 2005
32
4
49
Birmingham, England, UK
randip singh said:
Guru Gobind Singh ji said:

Manaas Ki Jaat Ehk Pachano

Recognise the Human Race as One

Here Jaat means race. It can also mean caste, creed and gender. I don't think I need to elaborate further than that.:wah:

If you are recognising your fellow human as somehow inferior or a different type of Human than you then you have no place in Sikhism.

Guruji abolished castism, racism and sexism in one swift blow when those swords tudded in the tent and the Panj Pyarey were baptised.

As for surname......I think that is done for practical purposes. Even Guru Gobind Singh Ji acknowledges in the Dasam Granth his lineage.....but he also acknowledges that in the bigger picture it does not matter one iota.

WGJIK WGJIF

Brother Randip,

Guru Ji abolished the differentiation between all sikhs / castes.
Guru Ji abolished the caste moniker at baptism by securing only a SINGH surname.

I have a open mind on this subject, however your above quote does not contradict the above.

Please elaborate if poss.
 

Jazz

SPNer
Apr 27, 2005
32
4
49
Birmingham, England, UK
bulleshah said:
Caste has been misinterpreted as being hereditary whereas Krishna states clearly
in the Bhagavad Gita that caste is a classification of people's potential. A single
family might have children with qualities that are suitable for Brahmins, Kshatri-yas,
Vaishyas, or Shudras.

A child interested in academics can be said to have Brahminical qualities; the one
wanting to join the armed forces can be said to be Kshatriya-like, the one who
prefers business has Vaishya gunas and the one who likes serving has Shudra gunas.

You might even find more than one trait in one person. Microsoft's Bill Gates,
for instance, can be said to be of quadri-caste since his functions and aptitude
contain elements of all four castes.

Attributing everything in Creation as being dominated by three gunas saatvic,
rajasic and tamasic Krishna says that all beings are under the influence of these gunas.

The three qualities determine our intelligence, emotions, behaviour, actions, habits,
impul-ses, everything. Unlike other life forms, human beings have the capability
to hone and polish specific skills and qualities. Krishna the perfect counsellor
tells us which vocation to follow to gain the ultimate goal of self-realisation.

For example, there are nine functional qualities of a Brahmin as enumerated by Krishna:
serenity, self-control, austerity, purity, forgiveness, simplicity, scriptural proficiency,
spiritual attainment and adherence to theological principles (18.42).

A competent warrior must have qualities of heroism, resplendence, and fortitude (18.43).

When rajoguna is mixed with tamoguna it gives birth to Vaishya-like qualities, says Krishna,
and they pertain to agriculture, animal husbandry, and commerce.

Some are naturally interested in service, and so are suitable for those professions that
require a predominantly service-component. Whatever one's potential and interest,
the ultimate aim is self-realisation, and not self-gratification. These qualities do not
bestow any special status on anyone; they are not even hereditary.

Krishna states: "The four divisions have been created by Me according to the
classifications based on natural qualities and functioning but in this act know
Me as the immutable, Non-doer" (4.13).

There is no nobility in these divisions, as they are merely functional.

The aim of life being self-realisation, the two pillars which help this are varna and ashram.
Varna based on natural tendencies can help in deciding the appropriate field of activity
which would help in achieving the goal of life.

To consider oneself superior or inferior is not sanctioned by shastras for such a perception
leads to self-degradation. One who is born in a trader's family, for instance, might have
an advantage due to environmental parameters but there can be exceptions.

The most important factor in choosing a profession is one's natural aptitude.
Choosing a profession one likes or for which one has the aptitude gives inner
satisfaction and leads to self-realisation.

Thanks.

WGJKK WGJKF

Brother Buleshah,

If your first sentance is true, then the misconception of heredritary 'tag', is generations wide, and on a worldwide scale. It is unfortunate indeed that thousands convert 'from' Hinduism towards another faith such as Islam, due to this 'misconception', and thousands more dismiss it as an avenue / path when 'looking' for God, for this reson again.

Tell me, who is it that defines this 'tag', is it the head of the family, head of the local Mandir, or Head Teacher? Is it not this 'tag' that leads certain people to be rejected from some Mandirs in India, and deemed 'untouchable' by others?


Jas
 

Lee

SPNer
May 17, 2005
495
377
55
London, UK
I am not of Indian decent so perhaps it is easy for me, but the simplicity of it is there is no room for caste, or toughts of caste within Sikhi. Just the thought that one man is lower than another is alien to Sikhi, and the idea that this is so based on what family name you have seems plain idiotic to me.
 
May 10, 2006
52
1
Jazz and Lee,

I was not expecting much from the progeny of the clergy of the Golden Temple, led by Arur Singh,
who had honoured the massacring Gen Dyer by declaring him a Sikh, on condition that he renounce
one cigarette a year.......But I'm forced to continue to reply to such Neo-Sikhs. You see, like them,
I'm caught in a trap of my own making -- The Incredible Heaviness of Being Macho. If I ignore your
post, it'll be taken as my inability to refute your rank garbage; and if I begin explaining, it'll be
perceived as a chicken-hearted retreat in face of the malevolent campaign aimed at my views.
What to do. A retro-Sikh-Hindu can be no less daft. Therefore, let me assert by saying:
I do NOT retract a single word from what I said.

Your claim that Sikhism is caste-free and that this sets it apart from Hinduism (on the assumption
that caste is intrinsic to Hinduism), is simply untrue. Every Hindu knows that Sikhs have not
ceased practising caste. The acknowledgement of caste identities was presumably acceptable
to the Gurus, for the Gurus themselves married their own children according to traditional caste
prescriptions. The anti-caste thrust of the Gurus’ teachings must be seen as a doctrine which
referred to spiritual deliverance and a firm rejection of injustice or hurtful discrimination based
on caste status. What is not implied is a total obliteration of caste identity.

Sikhs marry with Hindus of the same caste, while they still avoid marriage with Sikhs of
different castes. Likewise, Sikh politics is largely divided along caste lines, e.g. the Akali
movement is one of Jat Sikhs, shunned by low-caste Sikhs (who are called Mazhabi Sikhs,
that is, Sikhs by religion alone, e.g. former Congress minister Buta Singh) and by the
higher Khatri and Arora and Bedi castes to which the Gurus belonged.

Please don't talk to me of any casteless society in India -- where even Muslims and Christians
demand reservations for their OBCs. Why didn't anyone challenge Tara Singh's demand vis-a-vis
Harijan Sikhs? What's a Khatri, Jat, Shimbae, Kumiar...? What's written in scriptures, isn't what
Indian society follows -- so cut the crap.

Thanks.
 

Lee

SPNer
May 17, 2005
495
377
55
London, UK
Bullesha,

Sorry hate mail? I just don't get it?

What I said was there is no room for caste or issues of caste in Sikhi. I made made no claims of Sikhi being free of caste, only that it should be, I made no mention of Hinduism either in fact, what I said was I don't get this caste thing, because I am not Indian, nor of Indian origin. For me who has not been brought up in that culture the very idea for a man to be worth less than another man is alien to me, I also said that the very idea of one man being being worth less than another man based on his family name is plain stupidity.

Now perhaps you got upset with my ignorance of caste and the Indian culture, or perhaps you are just being over protective of some imagined slight I have offered you I don't know but hate post? Really, show me, please.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh

Dasjust wnats to put traditioan or Sanatan Sikh views over here.Das did reply to isues raised by BroBulleshaha with same text somewhere else.

Anyway das can say that Pursh Sutras of Vedas say that Brahmin came fromhead,Kshtriya from Armand Vaishya fromthighs and Sudra from feet.

So far by that only caste based peoplesay that thier Birth or Jati isassuch from that Brahmin or other castes.

But it is due to evilmind of evil Kaliyuga.

They forget that source of allfour is one Father God.

So Sa Jat Sa Pat Hai Jete Karm Kamaye means that that Godonlyis Casteor Gotraor Totumof allfrom which we get Salvation.

When unprecedented evil comes in Kaliyuga via God then God is not bound by scriptures of preivous Three Yugas that new scriputre with new methods willnot come to fight new situtation.

Sodo we have Gurmat.

Coming to Lord Krishan factor.

As per him in old scriptures ,humans can have Four Varna and Human Jat or race ws concerned.

If we see Akalustat,Dev(Angels)Adev(Demons),Jachchh(Sea dwellers),Gandrap(Rock dwellers),Turak(Turks),Hindu are result of influnece of different natioans attirer.

Again Vachitar Natak states that Angel is Called ,one who does good deed and demonn is called evil doer.

But within Mahabhrata,we have Lord Krishna becoming Happy on the death of Gatochkach,Son of Bheema And Demon Wife Hiddimba.

We says otherwise in orderr tocleance demons ethinaclly later,he himself would have killed Gatotkacha,Inspiteof factthat he was half man.

And in fact Krishna does KillsGhatochkachha son Barbareek,And his rebrith is That of Khatu Syam Ji.Juistashe was from blood of demons.

This is Hindu interpetation and as per them alldeomsn were killed.


Gurmat does not under stand Lord Krishna doing so and such stroy is not placed in Dasham Granth.Ved Vysa might have said something Hindus miss.Both father nad son had power which was weapon similar to mass destruction,which lead to Lord Krishna being happy on thier death or killing them.


Anyway sometimes das feeles pity on those Hindus,who try say we are monthiest and casteless faith.Our Faith is more toserve God in unioverse and so we serve universe .To do that as our worship we donot have to recoganse caste,race,relgeon,gender,area etc.

Anyway in Punjab,we have seen peoplefrom various so called lower caste becming Kingsof Sikh,Jathedar of Akal takhat,and similar things in Sikhs who are not punjabi in morestrong way.

But in Hindu Areasof north India,when we go to rural Area,Daseven once provided a weaon to lower caste Hindu,Reason was that,that Dhanuk(Weaver) was not allowed towear Turban in the village of Rajputs(Rulers) nor was alloed to ride horse during marriage procession.

Das just request not to feel bad if someone says that we are having caste in us,just get motivated.

1 to end the source of Caste in us ie Hinduism(itslef a racialism).If root is elimanted then no tree willbe there.
2. Just wait and watch that caste supporters will have divisioan of Hindu socity themsleves(In India presently we have grave divisoan in Hindus and strikes are therein hostpitals on that).We do not have to do anything but can just tellthem to end caste else caste will end them .

Das alsosaw another thing that inspite of telling Bulleshah that Mazhabi is Muslim convert to Faith,yet he stil does not understand.
 

Jazz

SPNer
Apr 27, 2005
32
4
49
Birmingham, England, UK
Jazz said:
WGJKK WGJKF

Brother Buleshah,

If your first sentance is true, then the misconception of heredritary 'tag', is generations wide, and on a worldwide scale. It is unfortunate indeed that thousands convert 'from' Hinduism towards another faith such as Islam, due to this 'misconception', and thousands more dismiss it as an avenue / path when 'looking' for God, for this reson again.

Tell me, who is it that defines this 'tag', is it the head of the family, head of the local Mandir, or Head Teacher? Is it not this 'tag' that leads certain people to be rejected from some Mandirs in India, and deemed 'untouchable' by others?


Jas

WGJJK WGJKF

Brother Bulleshah, I asked this and you replied ....

bulleshah said:
Jazz and Lee,

I was not expecting much from the progeny of the clergy of the Golden Temple, led by Arur Singh,
who had honoured the massacring Gen Dyer by declaring him a Sikh, on condition that he renounce
one cigarette a year.......But I'm forced to continue to reply to such Neo-Sikhs. You see, like them,
I'm caught in a trap of my own making -- The Incredible Heaviness of Being Macho. If I ignore your
post, it'll be taken as my inability to refute your rank garbage; and if I begin explaining, it'll be
perceived as a chicken-hearted retreat in face of the malevolent campaign aimed at my views.
What to do. A retro-Sikh-Hindu can be no less daft. Therefore, let me assert by saying:
I do NOT retract a single word from what I said.

Your claim that Sikhism is caste-free and that this sets it apart from Hinduism (on the assumption
that caste is intrinsic to Hinduism), is simply untrue. Every Hindu knows that Sikhs have not
ceased practising caste. The acknowledgement of caste identities was presumably acceptable
to the Gurus, for the Gurus themselves married their own children according to traditional caste
prescriptions. The anti-caste thrust of the Gurus’ teachings must be seen as a doctrine which
referred to spiritual deliverance and a firm rejection of injustice or hurtful discrimination based
on caste status. What is not implied is a total obliteration of caste identity.

Sikhs marry with Hindus of the same caste, while they still avoid marriage with Sikhs of
different castes. Likewise, Sikh politics is largely divided along caste lines, e.g. the Akali
movement is one of Jat Sikhs, shunned by low-caste Sikhs (who are called Mazhabi Sikhs,
that is, Sikhs by religion alone, e.g. former Congress minister Buta Singh) and by the
higher Khatri and Arora and Bedi castes to which the Gurus belonged.

Please don't talk to me of any casteless society in India -- where even Muslims and Christians
demand reservations for their OBCs. Why didn't anyone challenge Tara Singh's demand vis-a-vis
Harijan Sikhs? What's a Khatri, Jat, Shimbae, Kumiar...? What's written in scriptures, isn't what
Indian society follows -- so cut the crap.

Thanks.

My comments were comments, My questions were just that, questions. The way you have responded is like you are upset, why are you upset? Is life difficult? Is it all getting too much for you? Can you not understand the questions that are being asked? Do you believe in a faith that instructs you not to reply in a cival manner? or is there a invisible war that you are fighting?

Wake up my foolish brother, assist in the learning.

I ask a question, not to ridicule, but to learn. If you cannot assist then by all means do not respond to them.
 

Jazz

SPNer
Apr 27, 2005
32
4
49
Birmingham, England, UK
bulleshah said:
Jazz and Lee,

Quite promising ....

bulleshah said:
I was not expecting much from the progeny of the clergy of the Golden Temple, led by Arur Singh,
who had honoured the massacring Gen Dyer by declaring him a Sikh, on condition that he renounce
one cigarette a year.......But I'm forced to continue to reply to such Neo-Sikhs. You see, like them,
I'm caught in a trap of my own making -- The Incredible Heaviness of Being Macho. If I ignore your
post, it'll be taken as my inability to refute your rank garbage; and if I begin explaining, it'll be
perceived as a chicken-hearted retreat in face of the malevolent campaign aimed at my views.
What to do. A retro-Sikh-Hindu can be no less daft. Therefore, let me assert by saying:
I do NOT retract a single word from what I said..

Dribble driblle ..... your so funny ... are you 10?

bulleshah said:
Your claim that Sikhism is caste-free and that this sets it apart from Hinduism (on the assumption
that caste is intrinsic to Hinduism), is simply untrue. Every Hindu knows that Sikhs have not
ceased practising caste.

I think that caste is a bad thing, due to what people have made it mean in society over the ages, regardless of its foundations/intentions. Your last sentance above is immature and unneccessary.

bulleshah said:
The acknowledgement of caste identities was presumably acceptable
to the Gurus, for the Gurus themselves married their own children according to traditional caste
prescriptions.

Presumed, assumed ... oh well ...
I lay witness to the fact that in my group of friends and family, not all, but the majority of them have married within thier own 'caste', without caste as a criteria. Does that mean anything .... does that prove anything ... not at all ... but feel free to presume ... assume ..

bulleshah said:
The anti-caste thrust of the Gurus’ teachings must be seen as a doctrine which
referred to spiritual deliverance and a firm rejection of injustice or hurtful discrimination based
on caste status. What is not implied is a total obliteration of caste identity.

Excellent opinion, and written very well at that. This was all you really needed to say to bring your point across. As in my original posting this view is held by my father, and he gives the same reasons as you have here.

bulleshah said:
Sikhs marry with Hindus of the same caste, while they still avoid marriage with Sikhs of
different castes. Likewise, Sikh politics is largely divided along caste lines, e.g. the Akali
movement is one of Jat Sikhs, shunned by low-caste Sikhs (who are called Mazhabi Sikhs,
that is, Sikhs by religion alone, e.g. former Congress minister Buta Singh) and by the
higher Khatri and Arora and Bedi castes to which the Gurus belonged.

To err .. is human, and in this case not a religeous trait.

bulleshah said:
Please don't talk to me of any casteless society in India -- where even Muslims and Christians
demand reservations for their OBCs. Why didn't anyone challenge Tara Singh's demand vis-a-vis
Harijan Sikhs? What's a Khatri, Jat, Shimbae, Kumiar...? What's written in scriptures, isn't what
Indian society follows -- so cut the crap.

Thanks.

Again more immature rantings .. would it not be reasonable to discuss, and not 'fly off at the handle' due to what you and only you precieve as attacks on your way of thinking/opinions.

The original explanation of the caste system from Lord Krishnas time was very enlightening, and yes I learnt something I did not know. Your second posting put forward a very strong view on this subject, which is shared by many, regardless of the way it was put forward.

The foundation of the caste system may have had noble intentions for the welfare of all persons, however these good intentions have fallen on rocky ground over the ages, discrimination on a global scale has taken place, lines have been drawn out for,how people can pray, meet, learn, marry, or progress in life. This does apply accross the board ... Hindu .. Sikh .. Muslim .. etc

My question is .... do we pronounce the caste tag as dead, and try to move ahead without a caste system at all, or do we try to educate the people of the intentions of the caste system?, all the way from a few of my friends, who say they are hindu, but have no knowledge of the origins (as explained by yourself), all the way through to the institutional discrimination rooted, heavily within the Hindu community and, to a lesser extent, within the 'Sikh' community?

And do you think either would work?

Lastly, Brother Bulleshah, you are one of a community of educated persons on this forumn, I learn from this forumn everyday, and would appreciate if you could provide answers to my previous post and this one as a Brother and not a child.

Jaswinder.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh

anyway das will put some light on the issue of qoutes from Bhagwat Gita he gives as Anti Caste.

Same quote so far are used by some castist Hindus to prove caste.Just to put respeactable face so far such verese are changed in version and when danger is off agani inhuman caste in brouught back.

Thing here is that He may not knoe Sanskrit and there is term ja there which is used for birth then say understanding and knowldge and as per same verse it is Said that Barhimns due to birth/family have such qualties and that is racialism.

But das will say that verse as per Bulleshah are Ok.

Then das had a fight with evengalist over another verse of Holy Gita.


As per mercy of Krsna,Sudras,Women and other Heen(lowers) Yonis(Castes) may get salvation.

so far Indians psudo pandits used term Heen Yoni for lower caste but truth is that sudra may mean ileaitrate labuerer,it may mean women with heen yoni ie {censored},which can get salvation as elvenglasist agreed to das.

similar are verse in Ramchritar manas of goswami Tulsidas.

Dhol Gawar Sudra Pasu Nari Ye Sab Taran Ke Adhikari

Agani as per pseud Brahmins and evenglist who pray upon casteim it is

Drum,illetrate,Sudra,Animal and women are worthy of beating.

But dass wrote it Drum ,illetrate lower,animal(like) women are worthy of beating.

again things does not end here.in one of the Purana,Britishers or whites are same monkeys,who helped Sita and Rama against Ravana and hense as a blessing got to rule India.

That is not racialsim but not considering humans as humans.Muslims are tagged as demon species.In our scriptutes such things are calrified.Anyway resus monky can enter Jaganath Puri Temple but White man also deemed as monky can not.

niece of das as half white russian and half Hindu is perhaps a pruduct of animal man realtioship and may not be allowed.


Justfiying caste by Hindus by giving examples in other faiths is like Osama bin Laden jstifies his act of terror based upon minor acts of viaolence by US lead coaliation.Racialism in semitic faith(Sikhs included) is offically Baned and is due to pagan influence.While Hindusim itself is pagan culture and jsutiying race by name itself.

Then he says that he is Mon,rather he could be a Hindu altogather.

Mona guys are no where less see our Bro Plamba.often in Anti India movement there guys even were more catuous to support it as they wanted to do more to express thier things as by visiblity they do not loooked like Sikh.

In North part of Ranjit Singh kingdom away from British border and before coming of Britishers did Nirankari Movement was started and by Sahijdharis.


They are unlike Sanatanis as they only belive in Scriptures of Gurmat and nothing else.We have faith that God made Vedas and Kateebs but they do not.

He says neo Sikhs have a look.

These guys within the time Ranjit Singh in frontier Area did strange things.

1. Did Anand Karaj replacing fire but in Right to left way.Nihungs previously did left to right.
2.Guru did write about Krishna(Arrival into Delhi to Meet Pandvas) and Lav kush(During Yagnas) killing cows in Dasham Granth.Guru killed Nilgai(deemed cow by Hindus) as per Bijai Mukt Sakhi 10 supported Churhas killing cow for meat and leather saying that Leather of Tabla and muscical instruments are obtaied like that.

But Nirnkarie themselve killeed cows.

so such are Monas or Sahijdharis.

till this date Das is not liked by Nihungs for eating beef.We ahve three catogores of Sikhs due to conduct in Nihungs.
1.Bebcki like AKJ but belving in Raagmala.
2.Guru Panth or real Nihungs,can take all intoxicants but tobbaco,do not eat dead animal and cow.
3.Mazhabi,can smoke,can eat dead animal and can eat cow.Due to last das himslef vlouteered for this.Anyway smoking thing is now banned in them also.

But 1 to 3 can move from 1 to 2,2 to 3,3 to 1 and vice versa and reforms are still on(Trascript of talk with baba Nidder Singh Ji).

As not All hindus are not from RSS so we can not make fun of all to genralised them all as RSS,but in Brahmincal or rather pseudo brahmniacal mentilty genralsisation is main thing.Tagg all Muslims as villian,Tag all sikhs as jokers,Tagg all Chrsitan as salable item etc.

So tagging all Sikhs as AKJ,is simklar mentailty.
 
May 10, 2006
52
1
Jazz,

HTML:
To err .. is human, and in this case not a religeous trait.

And Human traits always overshadowed religion. All the great ideas propounded by the Human
mind had been killed by Human nature. Human nature always wins.

The merely theoretical and logical people have always failed to understand man. They have
never looked into his psychology.

LOGIC IS ONE THING... and unless we try to understand man more psychologically and less
logically, we are always going to commit mistakes.

ACCORDING TO THE MARXISTS, the whole problem is simply the class division between the
poor and the rich. They think that if all government power goes into the hands of the poor,
and they have a dictatorship of the proletariat -- when all classes have disappeared, and the
society has become equal -- then soon there will be no need of any state.

They are all concerned with the society. And that is where their failure lies. As I see it,
utopia is not something that is not going to happen, it is something that is possible, but
we should go to the causes, not to the symptoms. And the causes are in the individuals,
not in the society.

For example, Marxism lasted more than seventy years in in Soviet Russia, and the communist
revolution was not able to dissolve the dictatorship. Lenin was thinking that ten or fifteen years
at the most would be enough, because by that time we would have equalized everybody,
distributed wealth equally -- then there would be no need for a government.

BUT AFTER FIFTEEN YEARS they found that the moment you remove the enforced state,
people are going to become again unequal. There will be again rich people and there will be
again poor people, because there is something in people which makes them rich or poor.
So you have to keep them in almost a concentration camp if you want them to remain equal.
But this is a strange kind of equality because it destroys all freedom, all individuality.

The basic idea was that the individual would be given equal opportunity. His needs would be
fulfilled equally, he would have everything equal to everybody else. He would share it. But the
ultimate outcome was just the opposite. They almost destroyed the individual to whom they
were trying to give equality, and freedom, and everything good that should be given to individuals.
The very individual was removed. They became afraid of the individual; and the reason was that
they were still not aware that however long the enforced state lasts -- seventy or seven hundred
years -- it will not make any difference. The moment you remove control, there will be a few
people who know how to be rich, and there will be a few people who know how to be poor.
And they will simply start the whole thing again.

Although the people were poor, still they wanted to cling to their property. At least they had
something; and now even that was going to be taken out of their hands. They were hoping to
get something more -- that's why they had had the revolution, and fought for it. Now what
they had was going to be taken out of their hands. It was going to become government property,
it was going to be nationalized.... And for small things -- somebody may have had just a few hens,
or a cow, and he was not willing... because that was all that he had. A small house... and he was
not willing for it to be nationalized.

These poor people -- one million people were killed to convince the rest
that nationalization is good for them.

As time passed, they found that there was no way to keep people equal without force.
But what kind of a utopia is it which is kept by force? And because the communist party
had all the force, a new kind of division came into being, a new class of the bureaucrats:
those who had power, and those who didn't have any power. It was very difficult to become
a member, to obtain membership of the communist party in Russia, because that was
entering into the power elite. The communist party created many other groups
-- first you had to be a member of those groups, and you had to be checked in every way.
When they found that you were really reliable, absolutely reliable, trustworthy, then you
could enter the communist party. And the party was not increasing its membership
because that meant dividing power.

The party wanted to remain as small as possible so that the power was in a few hands.
There was now a powerful class. For more than seventy years the same group was ruling
the country, and everybody else was powerless. The people were never so powerless
under a capitalist regime or under a feudal regime. Under the czars they were never so
powerless. It was possible for a poor man, if he was intelligent enough, to become rich.
Now it was not so easy. You may be intelligent, but it is not so easy to go from the powerless
class into the class which holds power. The distance between the two classes was far more
than it was before.

It was a repeat of Hinduism. What Manu did 1500 years ago the Marxists did in the 20th century.

The other ism's, including Sikhism, are no different. The people in powerful positions
SGPC,Tat-Khalsa-Singh-Sabha variety) too are afraid of the individual.

SIKH is derived from the sanskrity word of “sikhsa”, meaning the learner. If we are learner’s
we should be applying the techniques of learning; passionate debate, constructive criticism,
clarity and REASON! (do not undermine human reason). But to criticize the Sikh faith on
certain aspects is becoming ineffectual for me, nobody listens, especially the people on the
far right. Bu I am going to criticize anyway to reach out to the very few that understand.
The reason why I criticize certain aspects of faith is certainly not to offend anyone, I believe
that a liberal-minded and critical approach is lacking in our religion, this is offsetting serious
religious doubts in the mind of youth such as myself. Those who believe criticism is a negative
thing and breaks a religion are utterly wrong. Criticism is the bases on which a religion EVOLVES
(take note people from the far right) and comes out stronger and more resilient.

I myself am a Sikh and have all the right in the world(India is a free country) to criticise things
I don't agree with. How shall one discuss Sikhi or anything without Sikhi or any such idea, no matter
how great, itself being open to criticism ?? Even blasphemy is an integral part of all quest for Truth.
The Sikh Gurus themselves were an example of this tradition of critique. So boys, if you want to be
proud of who you are develop some confidence and real faith in what you say you believe in.

Remember the Sikhs were considered liberal minded “back in the day”, which is why they
suffered atrocities as our teachings conflicted with the teachings of the existing Islamic state.
If you are a true Sikh retain your liberal mind and move forth this STATIC faith that has
become detached from reality. How can we forget that ?? How can we abuse a Brahamin
in the domocratic world . The Brahamana is considered preist by the Hindus. An equivalent
of the Granthi. The Hindu scriptures contain lot of pronography but none of the Hindus or
their shakraacharyas have ever raised the question of pronography and it's removal.
Let us see when ever such demand is raised how do the Hindu devouts rataliate.
And if you ask me... I am sure they will give me all the reason in the world to continue
to be proud of whatever I believe in. I am a real Sikh. A Sikh-Hindu. Searching for the truth.
Maintaining a distance from those who claim to have found it.

Every-thing that is not sikh(as defined by London-Toronto-Neo-Sikh clowns) is our enemy
they proclaim. Superstitious, idol worshipper Hindu... we all cry.

But if we find the Jutti of any Guru we start bowing from a 100 yards to pay our respect.
If some body found some stone at some place and said that these are the stones which
one of the Guru's used in Modi Khana, we build Big Gurdwawa's and Mela's are held and
the stones are worshipped . If some body said that Guru Gobind Singh drank milk in a
holed Jug we spend loads of money to pay homage.

All the hindu corruptive attributes that the Sikh Gurus and Hindu Saints like Namdev
long before Nanak denounced have today been adopted en-masse by the Sikh themselves.
No body calls a Hindu adharmi if he doesn't wear a janneyu but a sikh is branded as an
out-cast by even his own relatives if he trims his hair. I am an atheist and never hide my
believes or lack of them. But every Ganesh festival I am there at the fore front to carry
the idol on the day of immersion and nobody has ever bothered. They all know I don't
actually give a damn about God(though I am open to the idea of it's existence if some-one
can convince me). I am free to enter the neighbourhood Shiv Temple and nobody cares
that an athiest is distributing prasad. And I am cent-per-cent certain that nobody in the
Guru-Dwara is ever going to allow me to distribute prasad.

Whenever I think about all this I am reminded of the story behind Shivratri. The story goes
that when during the amrit-manthan along with the amrit of life even vish was produced in
an equal measure. Shiva descended from his abode and in order to cleanse the amrit decided
to drink away all the vish that could have killed all life as soon as it began. In doing so,
though he saved the world, he himself turned blue.

The same is with Sikhism. If we have to go by the definition of A sikh by western Akali-Neo-Sikh
scholar or even the SGPC clowns, shaven Sikhs (or even those who use ‘fixo’ or other similar
cosmetic products, to smarten-up their facial hair) are not true Sikhs; the Amli Sikhs and
Ram-garhiya Sikhs, Nirankari's, Nihang's, Sanatani's are not a part of ‘true Sikhdom’; and those
who do not subscribe to the demand for a separate Sikh state don’t even belong to human race.

A God turned against itself. An edifice created by the Human mind decimated by Human nature.

Thanks.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh

Das is sorry but this bulleshah is up to get Hinduism insulted again and again.

It is up to him that when will he stop doing this.Those who have glass houses do not pelt stones untoothers.

bulleshah said:
Jazz,

HTML:
To err .. is human, and in this case not a religeous trait.

And Human traits always overshadowed religion. All the great ideas propounded by the Human
mind had been killed by Human nature. Human nature always wins.


That happens more in hindu as they surrned der to nature or situation then making then suitable to themselves.

Say grred is natural but in past and in present many time thye sell thier faith for bread.Forhunger but we kill and iee for Faith.
The merely theoretical and logical people have always failed to understand man. They have
never looked into his psychology.


Das can understand your psychology.
Tobehold Sikhs are joker or like Jews and your self germanic

LOGIC IS ONE THING... and unless we try to understand man more psychologically and less
logically, we are always going to commit mistakes.


Yuo take man in genral term take gruop behaviour which as Hindu you never felt.
ACCORDING TO THE MARXISTS, the whole problem is simply the class division between the
poor and the rich. They think that if all government power goes into the hands of the poor,
and they have a dictatorship of the proletariat -- when all classes have disappeared, and the
society has become equal -- then soon there will be no need of any state.


Have you read Dr Shayama Prasad Muker Jiconcept of eating one will earn?
They are all concerned with the society. And that is where their failure lies. As I see it,
utopia is not something that is not going to happen, it is something that is possible, but
we should go to the causes, not to the symptoms. And the causes are in the individuals,
not in the society.


So thats why Hindu only help self interest and not the whole couuntry or socity.

As Perone Purana,to save famiuly let member die,to save village familymay die,To say Nation let village die.Amd to savew world let nation die.

Yuo forget Brahmin Dadhichi and his sacrfise.
For example, Marxism lasted more than seventy years in in Soviet Russia, and the communist
revolution was not able to dissolve the dictatorship. Lenin was thinking that ten or fifteen years
at the most would be enough, because by that time we would have equalized everybody,
distributed wealth equally -- then there would be no need for a government.

BUT AFTER FIFTEEN YEARS they found that the moment you remove the enforced state,
people are going to become again unequal. There will be again rich people and there will be
again poor people, because there is something in people which makes them rich or poor.
So you have to keep them in almost a concentration camp if you want them to remain equal.
But this is a strange kind of equality because it destroys all freedom, all individuality.


What heppend to concept of Hindu Rashtra as moved by RSS And brought BJP to power,similar thing happened here too.
The basic idea was that the individual would be given equal opportunity. His needs would be
fulfilled equally, he would have everything equal to everybody else. He would share it. But the
ultimate outcome was just the opposite. They almost destroyed the individual to whom they
were trying to give equality, and freedom, and everything good that should be given to individuals.
The very individual was removed. They became afraid of the individual; and the reason was that
they were still not aware that however long the enforced state lasts -- seventy or seven hundred
years -- it will not make any difference. The moment you remove control, there will be a few
people who know how to be rich, and there will be a few people who know how to be poor.
And they will simply start the whole thing again.


what about Gandhian concept you hindutva BJP preaches where state stillcan end when individaul is motivaed and not enforse to act to help others.

Das is sure that you can be motivedted like that.
Although the people were poor, still they wanted to cling to their property. At least they had
something; and now even that was going to be taken out of their hands. They were hoping to
get something more -- that's why they had had the revolution, and fought for it. Now what
they had was going to be taken out of their hands. It was going to become government property,
it was going to be nationalized.... And for small things -- somebody may have had just a few hens,
or a cow, and he was not willing... because that was all that he had. A small house... and he was
not willing for it to be nationalized.

These poor people -- one million people were killed to convince the rest
that nationalization is good for them.

As time passed, they found that there was no way to keep people equal without force.
But what kind of a utopia is it which is kept by force? And because the communist party
had all the force, a new kind of division came into being, a new class of the bureaucrats:
those who had power, and those who didn't have any power. It was very difficult to become
a member, to obtain membership of the communist party in Russia, because that was
entering into the power elite. The communist party created many other groups


Same are back in India and your Hindutva people are on run as already in villages they had no place.


-- first you had to be a member of those groups, and you had to be checked in every way.
When they found that you were really reliable, absolutely reliable, trustworthy, then you
could enter the communist party. And the party was not increasing its membership
because that meant dividing power.

The party wanted to remain as small as possible so that the power was in a few hands.
There was now a powerful class. For more than seventy years the same group was ruling
the country, and everybody else was powerless. The people were never so powerless
under a capitalist regime or under a feudal regime. Under the czars they were never so
powerless. It was possible for a poor man, if he was intelligent enough, to become rich.
Now it was not so easy. You may be intelligent, but it is not so easy to go from the powerless
class into the class which holds power. The distance between the two classes was far more
than it was before.


Similar things did end also in many democratic countries in west.Or rather redued
It was a repeat of Hinduism. What Manu did 1500 years ago the Marxists did in the 20th century.


Manu did not do any thing wrong but those who misqouted him did.
The other ism's, including Sikhism, are no different. The people in powerful positions
SGPC,Tat-Khalsa-Singh-Sabha variety) too are afraid of the individual.

are you aware that Real Panthic bodies like AKJ,DDT or missioanriers are rather supportive of newe into affaris.SGPC is rulled by those cheats who infact created Babbers togain upper hand from congress,when they first come to power in centre after emergency.Das talks about BJP ally Badal.Latertoweaken them congres made Dal Khalsa.

SIKH is derived from the sanskrity word of “sikhsa”, meaning the learner. If we are learner’s
we should be applying the techniques of learning; passionate debate, constructive criticism,
clarity and REASON! (do not undermine human reason).

Well das can say that you areuseless Hindu not knowing your tongue Hindi and Sanskrit is further poorer.

Read Shishya or learner and Shiksha you wrote is education.

But term for us is Gursikh ie Learner who sits at the place of Guru.unprecedented.

But to criticize the Sikh faith on
certain aspects is becoming ineffectual for me, nobody listens, especially the people on the
far right. Bu I am going to criticize anyway to reach out to the very few that understand.


Mind the diffreance between salnder and critiism.
The reason why I criticize certain aspects of faith is certainly not to offend anyone, I believe
that a liberal-minded and critical approach is lacking in our religion, this is offsetting serious
religious doubts in the mind of youth such as myself.

Well it is better for Hindus to learn intolrance and fundamentailsm from Sikhs then to teach us libralism.

In your own country stilldaily in your news paprer Hindu Devi Change name to Aisha and based upon non sense slander upon Manu,which you aresurprsingly agree.

Read book by Dr Paliwal on Manu ambedkar and caste system.
Those who believe criticism is a negative
thing and breaks a religion are utterly wrong. Criticism is the bases on which a religion EVOLVES
(take note people from the far right) and comes out stronger and more resilient.

Criticism is like soap toclean as per Gurbani but your modus oprandi is that you put soil called Hinduism and then clean it with critisism ,while such things are not in us at all.Hindusim, is dirty as is linked to soil/nation/dirt and you fell proud to let dirt do tilak on your forehad as it from your moterh land.
I myself am a Sikh and have all the right in the world(India is a free country) to criticise things
I don't agree with. How shall one discuss Sikhi or anything without Sikhi or any such idea, no matter
how great, itself being open to criticism ?? Even blasphemy is an integral part of all quest for Truth.

Do not tell lie and you can never be a Sikh.Das has a Jha Converted to Faith and serves in Indian Army.

For youhe says as Guru said that {censored} can have hide of lion but when it speaks {censored} is recoganised.


For you blasphemy is good and do it to your Bharat Mata or Devi Mata.
The Sikh Gurus themselves were an example of this tradition of critique.


They said truthand that was so bitter that youbecame pained

So boys, if you want to be
proud of who you are develop some confidence and real faith in what you say you believe in.

noone asked youropinion and by the way pride is vice for us. But you bepruod ofyour race.You are faithless and do not teach us no faith.Yuo talk of ego when you say self confidance,our self is thats(Gods).
Remember the Sikhs were considered liberal minded “back in the day”, which is why they
suffered atrocities as our teachings conflicted with the teachings of the existing Islamic state.

What about attrocitis inflicted upon Sikhs by psuodo Brahmincal people.

Pamma Pandi Paramnanda sent many timesarmy of Hindu Rajpoots to destroy us,Just as lower castes and upper caste were made to eat togather and in the same vessal and Brhmin were not served frst due to thier race.

Yuo were defeated.
If you are a true Sikh retain your liberal mind and move forth this STATIC faith that has
become detached from reality.
Our God is ever dynamic and we have aothroity to change rules as Panth is Guru Panth.

But it you who tells us to be dynamic,who so far has been saying that Gurus lacked dynamism and did preached old static teaching of your so called Hindu text.

This call selfcontradiction and that is away from reality.


How can we forget that ?? How can we abuse a Brahamin
in the domocratic world . The Brahamana is considered preist by the Hindus. An equivalent
of the Granthi.

Granthis do not tell hindus that Hindus are created byGranthis or hindus should respect these Granthis due to thier race.

What are you doing when your own Hindus are making non Brahmins as a prists and even RSS suports this idea.

This has been a success in Kerala but in north India Brahmin as thier Birth right oppsed such move.

Butmnay orders have overcame racialim ie Nath Yoga or Rama Krishna Mission and rest willfollow the suit.

RacialBrahmin is oppsed more by many people,whop themselves are born in Brahmin Family.

Here on this forum racialy we do not do any discrimnation.

Once all Brahmins by cotted Guru but Kany kubja one.Guru Said that all these peoplewho show you back my son Khalsa will return to you r door with begging bowl.But do not regoagnse them then racialy.

Kanykubja Gotra Brahmin was blessed and was told that Kalki will born to his family.

The Hindu scriptures contain lot of pronography but none of the Hindus or
their shakraacharyas have ever raised the question of pronography and it's removal.
Let us see when ever such demand is raised how do the Hindu devouts rataliate.
And if you ask me... I am sure they will give me all the reason in the world to continue
to be proud of whatever I believe in.
your prevert mind calls pronography
to the term from which your parent brought you to earth.


There are mnay of your Arya Samajis as even RSS people figthing to remove some verse from Vedas as well as Manusamriti.In factyou can getmoredetailfrom Suraj Bhan ex MP of AMBALA.

Sometime this pride in all non snese let you go ravana way.

Ravan was told by wife,Brother,Rama himslef but he was also proude with allhe belvied in liked you.He was killed.
I am a real Sikh. A Sikh-Hindu. Searching for the truth.
Maintaining a distance from those who claim to have found it.


Sikh and Hindu is oppsite like Truth and lie.And you caary self contradiction.Sikh who behold human race as one can not calim tobeof Hindu race.

But then you agree that you still search for truth and this proves that youlive in falsehood.
Every-thing that is not sikh(as defined by London-Toronto-Neo-Sikh clowns) is our enemy
they proclaim.

Some Hindus sacrfise Humans and eat thier fleshh,Some burns widow alive.Soasper your Cretria we behold all as Hindu if we do genralisationlike you.
Superstitious, idol worshipper Hindu... we all cry.

Yuo only cry but main problem is raiclism.
But if we find the Jutti of any Guru we start bowing from a 100 yards to pay our respect.
Yuo do that and True Sikh does not.Itis act of Hindu.

If some body found some stone at some place and said that these are the stones which
one of the Guru's used in Modi Khana, we build Big Gurdwawa's and Mela's are held and
the stones are worshipped .

areyou aware that stone of you idols are still kept just one entrance ofvarious mosques.

Each worshipper sterpsin on thosestonme before entering mosques.

As per Barani and Farishta often stones of idols worshipped in Tempples wereused by Butcher to wight beef.

So stone for us are just archelogical proof which you lack.

milk in a
holed Jug we spend loads of money to pay homaIf some body said that Guru Gobind Singh drank ge.

Boy that is done by your allies ie MR Badal,but what about potra Talab or pond where filth of Nappies of Lord Krishna were washed in Mathura Regeaon. For devotees drinking that water having trace of filth of Lord Krishna are gateto hevan,you should be proud of that.

All the hindu corruptive attributes that the Sikh Gurus and Hindu Saints like Namdev
long before Nanak denounced have today been adopted en-masse by the Sikh themselves.
Due to influnce of Hinduismand if it is destroyed then we willbe OK.By the way DevoteeRamdev Ji,who called Hindu as blind are you sure that he was Hindu?

No body calls a Hindu adharmi if he doesn't wear a janneyu but a sikh is branded as an
out-cast by even his own relatives if he trims his hair.

Yuoeat beef with das and then let your Hindu father come in or you Pandit sees this.

Hinduism like {censored} can accomodate all non sense even making fun of demigods in Ram Lela,it is like {censored} trying to tell loyalhouse wife to come and have earning by entering flesh trade.
I am an atheist and never hide my
believes or lack of them.

Hence proved that you are not Sikh.


Yes we repect and have faith in non belivers getting salvation,and God willbless them.But Ninth Master has verse unto them that to beholdviews of such people to be followed like Pig or dog stalking.
But every Ganesh festival I am there at the fore front to carry
the idol on the day of immersion and nobody has ever bothered. They all know I don't
actually give a damn about God(though I am open to the idea of it's existence if some-one
can convince me). I am free to enter the neighbourhood Shiv Temple and nobody cares
that an athiest is distributing prasad.
In fact for mony in some Temples we have history that tilakthe barber was allowed as he came vcotrius in the Army of Mahmood Ghzanivi,And he brole that temple.

Ifyou areallwed in Temple then it is due to the fact that they may laterone try to make you a belivers.

And I am cent-per-cent certain that nobody in the
Guru-Dwara is ever going to allow me to distribute prasad.


Just goand try and then das would know more about your surity.Das had a Muslim freind and he was allowed to Do Sewa but till youbehave your slef youcan be allowed to anything in servce of people.Say talking of anti God is simlar offense in Gurudwaralike say spiting or throwing shoe on idolof Shiva or Ganesha(das would have told more worse term like urinating but for the sake of devotion of faithfull to thoseform of God das resisted.But faithless like you will not understand.)

If you go be decorum in Gurudwara you willberespected and treated eqaully.But be it Temple or Gurudwara if someone breakes decorum,he/she is shown the door.Das himself once throw are person wearing leather beltin temple and still arguring.
So it was thereas rule and Das follwed what Pandit Ji told him to do.

Yuor surty is proof of your prejudice.
Whenever I think about all this I am reminded of the story behind Shivratri. The story goes
that when during the amrit-manthan along with the amrit of life even vish was produced in
an equal measure. Shiva descended from his abode and in order to cleanse the amrit decided
to drink away all the vish that could have killed all life as soon as it began. In doing so,
though he saved the world, he himself turned blue.



Bro to your knwoldege of your Faith.

Shiva took poision during Demon angel War.

Shivratri is instance of his marrige with second birth of Devi as Parwati.

And due to power ofpotancy of Lord Shiva,we have him never having Sex with Devi parwati but always Raman(forepaly)and most of his offspring are due to non sexual reproduction.

for us Lord shiva is Adi Nihung and great wrshipped of our
God Akal.
The same is with Sikhism. If we have to go by the definition of A sikh by western Akali-Neo-Sikh
scholar or even the SGPC clowns, shaven Sikhs (or even those who use ‘fixo’ or other similar
cosmetic products, to smarten-up their facial hair) are not true Sikhs; the Amli Sikhs and
Ram-garhiya Sikhs, Nirankari's, Nihang's, Sanatani's are not a part of ‘true Sikhdom’; and those
who do not subscribe to the demand for a separate Sikh state don’t even belong to human race.
Reason for your using term clown for Sikhs is due the fact that since the Time of Guru psudo Brahmins deem Sikhs are jokers and stillmake fun of them and that thing over here is exposed.

Just contradict the claimes made by these jokers and they will make a joker out of it.


Therewere Sikhs in the time of Tenth Guru,who did not keep5ks but thier coming generation did keep.

Nanakpanthi Hindus and Nanak Shahi Muslim have thier own proude position.

Nirnakaris in fact were first Sikhs before adveent of Britiehrs during era of Ranjit Singh to kill cow perhaps.


Then Nihungs behold Hindus as blined.

Sanatani is term oppose to hindu.

Ramgarhia was a misl.Amli Sikh is something like beef eating Hindu.

Then when you talk separtisits,Well mind your own BJPand RSS also who made allienace with Badal,who was founder of Babers,then congress who amde Dal Khalsa,Dirsty Indian poltics was and is main reason and they get mony after brainwashing obnlivious ones in west.

such tendecy to not to behold others as human race is typical to you and you behold Sikhs like you ie Hindus so you think that they may think like that and that is your fault.

In Meerut,when Thrre upper caste died and 2 lower caste(Chamar)died ,people said,3 only died as two were chamars.

These Chamars are now Sirdars(Leaders or Sikh)(visit Nagal Hereru village).As yopu are not a Sikh then let Sikh takcles them themselves and your interfreance can complicater matter and weakned the popple like das.
A God turned against itself. An edifice created by the Human mind decimated by Human nature.

Thanks.

so far you donot know the Truth which is God.

God does all evil and does all God(Old Testment).
 

Singh jr

SPNer
May 25, 2006
1
0
Jazz said:
WGJKK WGJKF

Brother Buleshah,

If your first sentance is true, then the misconception of heredritary 'tag', is generations wide, and on a worldwide scale. It is unfortunate indeed that thousands convert 'from' Hinduism towards another faith such as Islam, due to this 'misconception', and thousands more dismiss it as an avenue / path when 'looking' for God, for this reson again.

Tell me, who is it that defines this 'tag', is it the head of the family, head of the local Mandir, or Head Teacher? Is it not this 'tag' that leads certain people to be rejected from some Mandirs in India, and deemed 'untouchable' by others?


Jas

Interesting ...

Did anyone reply to this?
 
May 21, 2006
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idont know much about this but caste system is always practised in hisdu religion.
You see from first guru to tenth guru its same vein but still people like Kabir Bedi never use Singh nor as Kiran Bedi. I myself a jatt from Amritsar region and my Surname is older then Bedi used to be the centre of Punjab but a border these days.
 
Jul 30, 2004
1,744
88
world
Gurfateh


True Follower of Vedas needs to follow Purush Sutra and need to see God in all so racial considerations needs to be left so no castes as per Holy Vedas.
 

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