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Sufism Baba Farid

Luckysingh

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As you may know, sufi and sikhism do have some close links.
The spirituality, poetry combined with music and raags is closely adapted from Sufism, from what I gather.
Did some of them become sikhs ?
- I'm sure there were, but don't know many famous ones.
 

namjiwankaur

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Sat Nam

Lucky ji

As you may know, sufi and sikhism do have some close links.
The spirituality, poetry combined with music and raags is closely adapted from Sufism, from what I gather.
I think Sikhi and Sufism are very similar. I want to say Sufis inspired the Gurus, but I think those who speak the One Truth don't need to copy each other. Still, I feel very little difference in Sikhi from the Truth my sheikhs teach.

Can people be Sikh without knowing it? This question is not rhetorical, its a real question.

peacesign
 

namjiwankaur

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Sat Nam _/|\_

Itsmaneet ji

Did Guru Nanak call it Sikhi or think of is as a new religion then? I was wondering when it officially became known as a religion.

:sippingcoffee:


Sikhism started by Guru Nanak Dev Ji ....... 'Khalsa' was introduced by the Tenth Nanak Dev Sahib Ji.
 

Randip Singh

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Guru Nanak is seen as a Sufi by Sufi groups, no doubt. See "The Way of the Sufi" by Idries Shah.

Baba Nanak, had some clear disagreements with Sufi Saints but he also saw similarities with Sufi's. .....but then again he saw similarities with Hindu saints (with whom he disagreed with on some points).
 

Ambarsaria

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Namji{censored}aur ji thanks for the thread. Great topic and points for review.

I believe Randip Singh ji pointed towards the answers and I want to build it up a little further.

There are at least two ways to review some of the questions in your post. The myopic and general teachings or beliefs. I will focus on the “Myopic View” or approach in this post to illustrate.

In this approach one can take parts of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, pangatis/lines or shabads/stanzas and start deducing how the message is similar to say another religion, faith or belief or even no faith at all including approaches like atheism. Of course there will be no debate as what is stated is stated other than one’s understanding by design becomes incomplete.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not one line by one person, one shabad by one person or whole bunch of compositions by one person. There is a commonality of thought, exposition, descriptions and philosophy. Sikhism is defined by the totality of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and not parts or sections of it.

Let us take it one step further. Let us ask ourselves the basic question. Was Baba Farid ji a Sikh? The Guru ji’s I am sure would have strongly defended Baab Farid ji for who he was. More importantly Guru ji would have recognized Sikhism parts of the persona of Baba Farid ji and all others that are in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

So Guru ji did not try to encompass others into a collective or a United States of Religions but distilled and composed Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as a reflection of what Sikhism is.

I think Sikhi and Sufism are very similar. I want to say Sufis inspired the Gurus, but I think those who speak the One Truth don't need to copy each other.
As I stated earlier and I believe Randip Singh ji flagged too that in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sikhism there are parts that appear either adaptation or similar to parts of others. The issue is to address the totality of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and any other religion belief system. It becomes rapidly and abundantly clear that sectional similarities do not lead to globally the same as compared with any other religion or faith including Sufism. Aside from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji I love Sufism compositions like those Baba Bulleh Shah, and many wonderful other writers. Straight talking good people but not necessarily aligned in total with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji neither did they have any need to be so if they so chose.
Still, I feel very little difference in Sikhi from the Truth my sheikhs teach.
Now this is rather taking a bit of liberty with generalities. Test would be to see if your Sheikh would like to preach using the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or even refer to it in comparative and respectful ways. I don’t know and I am not taking holier than thou approach but world is a mosaic with own beautiful gardens and we don’t need to respectfully classify each one to be the same or similar to something else.
Can people be Sikh without knowing it? This question is not rhetorical, its a real question.
Now this is a very interesting question indeed. Sikhism does not have judges but suggestive approach to living and learning synergistic to each other. It is indeed possible. However, can such a person be tested to verify? My view is that such would be impossible to do. Whether testing is done for understanding of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji even of the usually classified Sikhs by themselves.

One fundamental teaching in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is ever learning about the infinite. So Sikh is an ever learning and improving concept and any static tests or approaches to a specific person or others are fraught with dangers or misunderstandings of Sikhism. When in doubt check it out through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is perhaps one of the more efficacious approaches to be taken.

There are threads at spn related to,

  • Are Sikhism and atheism similar
  • Wonderful posts by brother Vouthon ji about similarities between Catholic thoughts and spirituality and Sikhism
  • And so on.
These are all good and respectful discourses and like your thread lead to learning and clarity or definition of who each of us is.

Thanks again for the thread.

Sat Sri Akal.
 
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namjiwankaur

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Sat Nam

Ambarsaria ji


Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not one line by one person, one shabad by one person or whole bunch of compositions by one person. There is a commonality of thought, exposition, descriptions and philosophy. Sikhism is defined by the totality of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and not parts or sections of it.
I'm confused. Did I appear to be saying it was anything other than this? Yet there are those who authored various parts and referring to Baba Farid's contribution is no different than referring to the contributions of the ten gurus

Aside from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji I love Sufism compositions like those Baba Bulleh Shah, and many wonderful other writers.
Since tassawuf can't be learned from books, I'm wondering how much experience you have with the Sufi path.


Straight talking good people but necessarily aligned in total with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji neither did they have any need to be so if they so chose.
Yes, but because of what Sikhi is, much of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib has a universal message. Do you believe Sri Guru Granth Sahib belongs to Sikhs only or to humanity? Just curious.

Now this is rather taking a bit of liberty with generalities. Test would be to see if your Sheikh would like to preach using the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or even refer to it in comparative and respectful ways.
Some sheikhs would struggle with it, no doubt. While I never assume I can speak for someone, the lineage of the tariqas I'm involved with would have no problem at all with preaching with the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Divine Revelation is fluid and is essentially all born from the same Light.

Many Sufis would be very comfortable teaching from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. My interactions have been with Universal Sufis, Bawa Muhaiyaddeen's devotees, Qadiri Rifai, Ruhaniat and Nur Ashki Jerrahis. Have you explored Lex Hixon at all when reading on Sufism? Or Bawa Muhaiyaddeen? I studied to become a cherag for a year. Cherags are Sufi ministers by Universal Sufism. A glance at the Cherag Library site would be enough to see that Sufism is not bound to any religion. Some Sufis disagree with that, but all the Sufis I know cherish Buddha & his teachings as much as Muhammad's.

My Sheikha told us outer form is not what really matters; its the inner journey that leads to God. Why does there need to be so much disagreement about how religions are alike and different? I personally don't get that. I think people start idolizing religion vs. worship of the Divine when too much attachment is made to what sets one's religion apart from other religions.


I don’t know and I am not taking holier than thou approach but world is a mosaic with own beautiful gardens and we don’t need to respectfully classify each one to be the same or similar to something else.
I have noticed many Sikhs get irritated when Sikhi is "compared" to other religions. Its important for the various traditions to recognize where they share common ground. Like I said, I am not saying the gurus "copied" the Sufis or vice versa. I made it clear that the Divine Revelation may grow in many gardens, but in the end they all come from the One Gardener.

I never compared or said anything was similar or not. I spoke of my experience only. From my perspective, from the direction of my Sheikhs I view that, in essence, all religion is born from Divine Light. Each of the communities has a Lamp (Prophet/Messenger/Guru) and all attract a certain kind of community, but it is all one.


When in doubt check it out through Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is perhaps one of the more efficacious approaches to be taken.
I'm still convinced a person doesn't have to be Sikh (formally) to have an intimate relationship with the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

peacesign
 
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Ambarsaria

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namji{censored}aur ji the curiousity got better of me with your suggestion. An example from your suggested reading I cie.
...... Bawa Muhaiyaddeen's devotees, Qadiri Rifai, Ruhaniat and Nur Ashki Jerrahis. ..... Bawa Muhaiyaddeen? .....

I'm still convinced a person doesn't have to be Sikh (formally) to have an intimate relationship with the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.peacesign
Here goes,

Islam and World Peace - Explanations of a Sufi

by M. R. Bawa Muhaiyaddeen

It was to bring this message that God, the Most Exalted, sent so many prophets through His holy grace. Then He made His resonance into the teachings of the Holy Qur'an and sent that to the Final Prophet, Muhammad, the Chosen Messenger.13 Through the Angel Gabriel, Allah revealed to Muhammad His words, His actions, His conduct, His goodness, and His powers.14 We must reflect deeply upon every explanation contained within this Holy Qur'an, which exists in all three realms: the primal beginning, this world, and the hereafter.15
..................
http://www.bmf.org/m/iswp/weapon-islam.html
I am shocked if this is a way to relate to Sufism of Punjab. I am more simpler and am probably not into such very deeply that you have quoted.


Listen to the following from Bulley Shah that I meant in reference,

Abida Parveen Sings Bulleh Shah - YouTube

Baba Bulley Shah By Molvi Ahmed Hassan Akhter - YouTube

Echoes of Sufi Chants - Doha Baba Farid - Shafqat Ali Khan - YouTube

Ishq Bullay Nu Nachawe Yaar By Saein Zahoor - [Full Length High Quality] - YouTube

Ghum Charkhia Ghum Pathanay Khan - YouTube

Sorry it is in Punjabi but the gist is against any formal religion even though Bulley Shah was of Islam origin.


Regards.
 
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BhagatSingh

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Sat Nam _/|\_

Itsmaneet ji

Did Guru Nanak call it Sikhi or think of is as a new religion then? I was wondering when it officially became known as a religion.

:sippingcoffee:
I doubt it. Guru Nanak Dev ji's teachings are same as that of Bhagats from the 12th, 13th century such as Bhagat Namdev ji and Bhagat Jaidev ji. They are the same as that of Bhagat Kabir ji and his Guru Ramanand ji from the 14th century. Sikhi just means disciplehood, and that has been going on since ancient times in India. New Sikhs were initated as Sikhs through the Guru's Charan Pahul, the water into which his feet are dipped. Khalsa is disciplehood into the warrior class, Sikhs were initated through Khande di pahul, water in which the sword has been dipped, to be a warrior. Khande di pahul only started from the time of Guru Gobind Singh ji. Many modern Sikhs use this to define Sikhs today, those who are going to or already have taken Khalde di pahul are (Modern) Sikhs.


It certainly began to look like a religion in the 20th century. Further feelings of separatism grew after 1984 riots as a result of Indira Gandhi's assassination by her Sikh bodyguards.

have noticed many Sikhs get irritated when Sikhi is "compared" to other religions.
Same here. There is a strong superiority complex amongst many modern Sikhs. The need to be a separate religion and to have an identity as one is sometimes more valued that the values of the religion itself.

Could Sufis have also been Sikh at any point?
Sufis consider themselves Muslim. Their teachings do have many similarity with Guru's teachings.
 

namjiwankaur

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Sat Nam

Ambarsaria ji

Since it looks like we now have a great opportunity to begin studying Bawa ji's teachings, I am going to create a new thread for it. He definitely deserves one and his teachings are universal. People of all religions came to him not only Muslims or Sufis.

I have to go out now, but I will reply more later and watch the videos you provided.

Something to think about though. Try reading what you quoted from Bawa's perspective. His perspective is that religions should unite not divide us. Is he saying "only the Quran" or "only Islam"? He didn't teach this. He was against that kind of identification with the outer shell of a path to God.

I'll end here with a video of a sheikha from Nur Ashki Jerrahis which sums up the perspective my teachers have of Sufism and religion. At around 3:40 into the video, she describes Sufism as the mysticism of every religion.

Interview with Halifa Ayshegul Ashki on Vimeo
 
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namjiwankaur

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Sat Nam
Ambarsaria

Bawa ji also said:

‎"You are a Christian because you believe in Jesus, and you are a Jew because you believe in all the prophets including Moses. You are a Muslim because you believe in Muhammad as a prophet, and you are a Sufi because you believe in the universal teaching of God's love. You are really none of those, but you are all of those because you believe in God. And once you believe in God, there is no religion. Once you divide yourself off with religions, you are separated from your fellowman." M.R. Muhaiyaddeen mundahug

This is always present in Bawa's teachings.

I will also use this quote to start the thread for Bawa ji in Sufism.
 

Ambarsaria

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Bhain/Sister namji{censored}aur ji the following is from the site you asked me to go to and the author is who you believe propagates Sufism,
Islam and World Peace - Explanations of a Sufi

by M. R. Bawa Muhaiyaddeen

.....................

  • It was to bring this message that God, the Most Exalted, sent so many prophets through His holy grace.
  • Then He made His resonance into the teachings of the Holy Qur'an
  • and sent that to the Final Prophet, Muhammad, the Chosen Messenger.13
  • Through the Angel Gabriel,
  • Allah revealed to Muhammad
    • His words, His actions, His conduct, His goodness, and His powers.14
  • We must reflect deeply upon every explanation contained within this Holy Qur'an,
..................
http://www.bmf.org/m/iswp/weapon-islam.html
If the above is wrongly ascribed to the author then you need to determine that or say so.

However if it is ascribed correctly to him and you call this Sufim, then I don't even see a shred of commonality between such sufism and Sikhism as in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

In Sikhism,

  • No final prophet
  • No single messenger of God
  • No single person selected by God
  • No book big enough to describe God or teachings of God
  • and so on
Hence your hypothesis of such Sufism being close to or identical to Sikhism is false in its fundamental core values.

I am not saying or judging what someone holds as beliefs or what they preach being good or bad. I am simply identifying the dichotomy between what you describe as Sufism and what I know of Sikhism and its teachings.

Regards. peacesign
 

namjiwankaur

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Bhagat ji

I want to make sure I understand "bhagat" correctly. It means someone who lives a very spiritual life, correct?


The need to be a separate religion and to have an identity as one is sometimes more valued that the values of the religion itself.

I wonder why that is? People get really caught up in excluding others. I believe the Dvine Sun shines equally on people of all different traditions. I get criticized a lot for that, but its something I will never compromise about.


Quote:
Could Sufis have also been Sikh at any point?
Sufis consider themselves Muslim. Their teachings do have many similarity with Guru's teachings.
Sufism exists within Islam as mystical Islam, but Sufism could exist within any religion. Sufism is the Path of Love. Of course, not all Sufis agree with me, but many do.

0:)
 

BhagatSingh

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Bhagat ji

I want to make sure I understand "bhagat" correctly. It means someone who lives a very spiritual life, correct?
Yes but bhagats follow a particular kind of spiritual discipline. I think you know what it is called.


I wonder why that is? People get really caught up in excluding others. I believe the Dvine Sun shines equally on people of all different traditions. I get criticized a lot for that, but its something I will never compromise about.
The need for an identity is so engrained in our mind. And Sikh missionaries only fuel this.



Sufism exists within Islam as mystical Islam, but Sufism could exist within any religion. Sufism is the Path of Love. Of course, not all Sufis agree with me, but many do.
0:)
Sufism borrows heavily from the the Bhakti Yog tradition. Thus to correctly phrase it: Bhakti Yog is the focus of both Sufism and Sikhism. But not all traditions. For example, the Christians might say they love God but they don't practice, simran (well some do use a rosary) or kirtan or worship, etc to attain yog, to attain union with God. Their idea is that if they cultivate love for Jesus then they will go to heaven.
 

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