All Talk No Action

[CuriousCour]

Its all good stating that sikhism emphasizes the principle of equality and rejects discrimination on the basis of caste, creed or gender.But how many sikhs here actually venture out their community?

 

[spnadmin]

CuriousCour ji

Please say a little more. Give us some examples from your experience. Talk a little more about what "venturing into the community" means in the sense of your question. I find your comments very intriguing.

 

[CuriousCour]

spnadmin ji

Well im turning 22 in a week and a couple days.In my years walking this planet i have had two relationships, the second one being the on im in now.My former relationship was with an indian girl as is my current girlfriend.Basically in my last relationship (a couple years ago now) the parents got told at some sort of function that their daughter was with me.They humiliated her and made her feel guilt by saying the cliche; "look how your making us look", "your being selfish", "all what we have done for you and you repay us like this"..Well that was the end of that.Moving forward to my current relationship.It bears similarities in regards to sneaking around, being weary of who might see us in public.As people their different.Also her parents are unaware of us.The thing is i feel theres an undercurrent of hypricosy in the sikh community.People claim they don't discriminate and everyones equal.Yet their actions speak otherwise.What i mean by venturing out the community is if someone from the sikh community likes someone from a non-sikh community they won't even go there because of the problems that arise.Mainly from parents.Instead of rejecting people outside of the community because you fear the unknown, embrace them.But i also know that ethnic-minorities want to protect their culture because they feel its threatend.By people like me-half black half white.I just don't like how the world is so divided .Afterall i wouldn't be here if my white mother and black father didn't venture into uncharted waters.Strength is in numbers!

 

[kds1980]

Principle of Equality does not mean that Sikhs should go and start inter marrying with non Sikhs.Sikhism is quite clear on this issue that a sikh should marry a sikh

 

[CuriousCour]

I know but say a sikh guy started a relationship with a non-sikh girl.Would the principle of equality still stand? Where is it quite clear? Even if it is isn't it also clear that sikhs shouldn't drink alcohol or inhale tobacco?

 

[findingmyway]

CuriousCour ji,
I think part of the attitudes you encounter are due to fear. Parents become afraid that people not from the Indian culture are more likely to use their daughters and then leave them. If the relationship does not progress to marriage, the girl's reputation will be damaged and parents worry about the effects on her future. Marriage in Indian culture is also between 2 families rather than just 2 individuals due to the way the culture works. Marrying interfaith shatters this dream and changes the dynamic of the family quite dramatically. There is also the perception that if a child marries outside the culture they will become more distant from the from as they are rejecting their heritage.

I am not endorsing or justifying the attitudes I describe. However, understanding the issues makes it easier to adjust your behaviour to assuage the families fears. Family plays a major role in Panjabi culture. Having said that these are generalisations and may not apply to the families you have encountered. In theory it may seem it's not equality but life isn't so simple. We all have different cultures and it's about compatibility of different sets of ethics/morals/priorities to make things work. On a personal note my friends are literally from all around the world and all different faiths. When it comes to relationships I will only be with a Sikh (whatever colour he is) not because others are inferior but because no-one else would fit in with my lifestyle. The rules for friendship and relationships are different.
Good luck!

 

[kds1980]

I know but say a sikh guy started a relationship with a non-sikh girl.Would the principle of equality still stand? Where is it quite clear? Even if it is isn't it also clear that sikhs shouldn't drink alcohol or inhale tobacco?

To be honest Religious Sikh Families also want their sons to marry within Religion .as far being clear is concerned it is written in Rehat maryada which every sikh should try to follow.Also Sikhism is clear that Sikhs should not smoke or drink alchohol.

 

[CuriousCour]

findingmyway ji,

Yep i agree, fear of how to deal with someone outside their culture.Shouldn't parents address that fear instead of applying characteristics like; using and abusing to people outside their culture?Obviously i understand its tradition to marry within the culture.Any tradition thats altered in the slightest way takes you out of your comfort zone.But should who the daughter is with be about their reputation or her happiness?Thats true about the dynamic of the family I understand that point.My sister has been with an indian guy for 11 years.They have two kids.At first his family was unhappy about it, basically left him to fend for himselves.After a while they came round and my sister visits his family and his mum comes to visit them on a regular.I don't think they are rejecting their heritage because you can't choose who you fall for.

I know i know.You have made some good points.I feel that what the daughter wants is never at the forefront though.Its always the reputation and how the rest will look at them.The community doesn't put food on the table.But don't you think if you love someone its about making it work not fitting them in?Thankyou for your post

 

[CuriousCour]

To be honest Religious Sikh Families also want their sons to marry within Religion .as far being clear is concerned it is written in Rehat maryada which every sikh should try to follow.Also Sikhism is clear that Sikhs should not smoke or drink alchohol.

But it seems that not every Sikh follows that to the letter.This is where im having trouble understanding.Some people say aslong as you respect the religion.Others say it doesn't matter the colour, caste etc.Then theres the teachings that the gurdwaras are open to all.When it comes to marriage though they have to be sikh?

 

[Archived_member14]

CuriousCour,


I am not here as a Sikh, but working with what I understand to be general principles.
First on your own general remark, “All talk no action”.

Although each one of us must know for himself what the motives behind it all are, still it is true isn’t it, that we must start with reflective acceptance of what the rules and laws are? There is of course a difference, between stating something with an idealistic attitude and doing so with some level of understanding. But even when it is the latter, it can’t be expected that intellectual understanding must condition a practical application immediately, don’t you think? We are after all not like robots into which programs are fed in order that a change in outward behavior happens instantly.

Also although there are some rules which one applies with relative ease given a set of conditions, it should not be expected that other rules must then also be applied. We all need time to work our way into applying anything that we accept in principle. If we can follow some rules now and not others, this does not necessarily mean that we are being hypocritical or inconsistent. Besides the rules are different, some from social considerations and others pertaining to the individual. Marriage is an example of the former and smoking of the latter. Moreover the aspect about seeing everyone as equal (although I personally never work from this position), which is both social and individual, this does not even qualify as a rule, but an attitude of mind to be developed.

But most important of all is this.
Even though other people have trouble working with their fears and act in ways which appear unfair to us, it is imperative that we show kindness and feel compassion towards them for their failings.

On this particular matter of relationship that you brought up, Findingmyway ji has given what I consider to be a very nice explanation. But I’d like to add something.

All parents want for their children to be happy, always. And when it comes to one of certain age, all parents do not want to see their daughter taken advantage of by other boys and men. This includes even the most so-called open minded people. No matter even if the parents themselves went through the process of inter-marriage, even they think only for their daughter’s wellbeing. That they allow for the same to happen with their daughter, the key factor is that it is they who consent.

In your particular case, you’d therefore need the girl’s parents to be happy about it. If not, then both you and your girlfriend are blameworthy and surely you’d not like to see her do wrong, do you?

It is said that, even if we were to carry our parents on our shoulders, feeding, clothing and allowing them to do what they must in that same position till they die, we’d still not have repaid the debt we owe to them. This applies even to parents who are bad. Best way to repay the debt is to establish them in wisdom and morality. And so it follows that if we end up instead encouraging a lot of aversion, we are doing a very bad deed indeed.

When I look back at how I always tried to justify myself in order to get and do what I want, I know that I’ve been a really bad son throughout. When it came to marriage however, even though I do not believe in Sikhism and was inclined towards Buddhism, I married a Sikh woman because my parents are Sikhs and I wanted to make them happy. To marry a non-Sikh would have really hurt them. And there is no big deal about so called “love” between a man and a woman.

It is about “attachment” all the way through. Sex works to satisfy the individuals concerned, nothing more. If there is indeed any loving-kindness arising in between to act as motivator, this would be in spite of the relationship and not the result of it. The strong emotion that we feel towards the other and which can make us feel as though all the people out there are so nice and the whole world such a pleasant place to be in, is not love, but ‘illusion’ created by attachment.

This so called ‘love’ is in fact a very self-centered activity. We are always seeking to be made happy by other people and rarely do we really care about anyone. We seek to have friends, but it never occurs to us to be friendly towards all who we meet, which btw, is the real basis for ‘equality’. Kindness is the best of mental states to develop and we should all do so. Were your relationship with your girlfriend based on genuine kindness, this would possibly have had a positive influence on her parents. But then, you would also have felt kindness towards them, but clearly you do not, instead you are pointing a finger at them. And this is wrong.

No one is perfect and it is not our place to judge other people. I do not expect you or your girlfriend to be perfect, and I would not judge you as wrong if you fail to follow the principle I’ve outlined. I put them forward for your consideration and can only hope that it helps.

I had more to say, but must rush out for an appointment. I may have a small window later tonight to respond to your further comments, but I leave early next morning to a place where I won't have internet access for three days.

 

[Ambarsaria]

But it seems that not every Sikh follows that to the letter.This is where im having trouble understanding.Some people say aslong as you respect the religion.Others say it doesn't matter the colour, caste etc.Then theres the teachings that the gurdwaras are open to all.When it comes to marriage though they have to be sikh?

curiouscour ji I believe the saying is "let him throw the first stone".

It is too easy to find faults. You are looking for perfection in every Sikh for your convenience but not asking the same how you may have not kept the perfection your parents may have raised you in.

Sikhism as the most threatened religion by Hindus and Muslims has practical operational guidelines under "Sikh Rehat Maryada". You may want to refer to it if you are interested in Sikhism. It has parts about "personal life" and "Panthic Life" (community living). Panthic Life is heavily based on Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji's baptization principles of "Sikhs" to "Singhs/Kaurs".

So you need to respect both and not some arbitrary concepts like Gurudwaras are open to all which they are. This Openness is true but it does not mean that it implies Sikh people being open to marrying Hindus or Muslims whose religion goes totally against Sikhism. You want to marry a Sikh, with open arms we want you to become a Sikh and welcome you. This applies for both men and Women. There is equality principle in Sikhism. Many other religions only allow Men to bring other religion women into the fold and not vice versa.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Shanger]

This is a very confusing area & opinions differ everywhere.

I don't know much at all but at many times i see the SGGSJ & the Rehat as conflicting in areas

 

[Ambarsaria]

This is a very confusing area & opinions differ everywhere.

So you say! In second breath below you admit knowing nothing while passing judgement in first sentence

I don't know much at all but at many times i see the Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiJ & the Rehat as conflicting in areas

Can you make better use of your keyboard to say something about an iota that you can contribute in this forum perhaps in interfaith sections where you may be able to add something about your fantasies of Shiv/Shiva, miracle makers, etc., as appropriate.

Your only noticeable quality in the absence of positive contributions is "agent provocateur" that I can ascertain or it could be baby talk rambling.

Good bye and good luck.

 

[spnadmin]

Ambarsaria ji

I think this was part of your response to Shanger

Your only noticeable quality in the absence of positive contributions is "agent provocateur" that I can ascertain or it could be baby talk rambling.

The characteristic features of a troll on an internet forum are as follows:

• mission is to create conflict
• method is to
  
  • find threads that are somewhat older, or threads where opinions have settled and there is not much more to add
  • create doubt about established beliefs and opinions by making controversial statements aimed at new members
• underlying strategy is to
  • create doubt and uncertainty with newer members
  • agitate veteran members
• outcome
  • a flame war.

I have been watching much of the evening.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Arsonists have as little chances to start a fire in spn heaven as they have of freezing an ice block in Hell...what with a 24/7 top class firefighting department in place in the spnadmin...they are better off trying their luck in hell..he he:interestedsingh:

 

[Shanger]

Ambarsaria ji

I think this was part of your response to Shanger

The characteristic features of a troll on an internet forum are as follows:

• mission is to create conflict
• method is to
  
  • find threads that are somewhat older, or threads where opinions have settled and there is not much more to add
  • create doubt about established beliefs and opinions by making controversial statements aimed at new members
• underlying strategy is to
  • create doubt and uncertainty with newer members
  • agitate veteran members
• outcome
  • a flame war.

I have been watching much of the evening.

I only came back to the forum cos I got curious after I got an e-mail about a friend request from a new member (probs one you're referring to).

I browsed few forums, the name Sunny Leone was familiar to me so I opened thread (it was near the top anyway I didn't look at the how old it was), I admit I only read the first page. So yeah my response there was not needed, my bad.

I've never flamed anyone on here either, despite being flamed myself.

I'm not against Sikhism at all anyway, many parts I like, & I'm proud of the history. I even have rap music related to it which is on the net encouraging sikhs, but I will not post yet in case it is against the rules.

 

[Shanger]

Good bye and good luck.

Opinions do differ everywhere. That is a fact.

Like you follow the Rehat right? Which says a Sikh should only marry a Sikh.

Yet I read somewhere here that another member (sorry for not remembering username, & I don't mean to single that person out at all just giving an example) is married to an atheist (so not married to a Sikh). Yet that member is religious/has 100% belief in Sikhism.

So opinions do differ.

 

[Ambarsaria]

One part of growing up (you claim to be 22) is to be able to see "forest from the trees". Similarly said, "don't get stuck in the weeds".

If one's focus is to find faults or prove things through exceptions here and there, one is going to likely become egoistic and ignorant set hard in one's logic and ways. Think big and think beautiful, think positive.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[findingmyway]

But it seems that not every Sikh follows that to the letter.This is where im having trouble understanding.Some people say aslong as you respect the religion.Others say it doesn't matter the colour, caste etc.Then theres the teachings that the gurdwaras are open to all.When it comes to marriage though they have to be sikh?

A lot of arsonists and murderers live in the UK and claim to be British, does this make every Brit bad? In the same way not everyone who claims to be Sikh is perfect (including me). There are many other influences in life too. Maybe instead of criticising you should be trying to break stereotypes in your interactions with others. By being negative and therefore encouraging your partner to be negative towards the family, those stereotypes that 'outsiders' cause a family to split up will be propagated.

 

[CuriousCour]

CuriousCour,


I am not here as a Sikh, but working with what I understand to be general principles.
First on your own general remark, “All talk no action”.

Although each one of us must know for himself what the motives behind it all are, still it is true isn’t it, that we must start with reflective acceptance of what the rules and laws are? There is of course a difference, between stating something with an idealistic attitude and doing so with some level of understanding. But even when it is the latter, it can’t be expected that intellectual understanding must condition a practical application immediately, don’t you think? We are after all not like robots into which programs are fed in order that a change in outward behavior happens instantly.

Also although there are some rules which one applies with relative ease given a set of conditions, it should not be expected that other rules must then also be applied. We all need time to work our way into applying anything that we accept in principle. If we can follow some rules now and not others, this does not necessarily mean that we are being hypocritical or inconsistent. Besides the rules are different, some from social considerations and others pertaining to the individual. Marriage is an example of the former and smoking of the latter. Moreover the aspect about seeing everyone as equal (although I personally never work from this position), which is both social and individual, this does not even qualify as a rule, but an attitude of mind to be developed.

But most important of all is this.
Even though other people have trouble working with their fears and act in ways which appear unfair to us, it is imperative that we show kindness and feel compassion towards them for their failings.

On this particular matter of relationship that you brought up, Findingmyway ji has given what I consider to be a very nice explanation. But I’d like to add something.

All parents want for their children to be happy, always. And when it comes to one of certain age, all parents do not want to see their daughter taken advantage of by other boys and men. This includes even the most so-called open minded people. No matter even if the parents themselves went through the process of inter-marriage, even they think only for their daughter’s wellbeing. That they allow for the same to happen with their daughter, the key factor is that it is they who consent.

In your particular case, you’d therefore need the girl’s parents to be happy about it. If not, then both you and your girlfriend are blameworthy and surely you’d not like to see her do wrong, do you?

It is said that, even if we were to carry our parents on our shoulders, feeding, clothing and allowing them to do what they must in that same position till they die, we’d still not have repaid the debt we owe to them. This applies even to parents who are bad. Best way to repay the debt is to establish them in wisdom and morality. And so it follows that if we end up instead encouraging a lot of aversion, we are doing a very bad deed indeed.

When I look back at how I always tried to justify myself in order to get and do what I want, I know that I’ve been a really bad son throughout. When it came to marriage however, even though I do not believe in Sikhism and was inclined towards Buddhism, I married a Sikh woman because my parents are Sikhs and I wanted to make them happy. To marry a non-Sikh would have really hurt them. And there is no big deal about so called “love” between a man and a woman.

It is about “attachment” all the way through. Sex works to satisfy the individuals concerned, nothing more. If there is indeed any loving-kindness arising in between to act as motivator, this would be in spite of the relationship and not the result of it. The strong emotion that we feel towards the other and which can make us feel as though all the people out there are so nice and the whole world such a pleasant place to be in, is not love, but ‘illusion’ created by attachment.

This so called ‘love’ is in fact a very self-centered activity. We are always seeking to be made happy by other people and rarely do we really care about anyone. We seek to have friends, but it never occurs to us to be friendly towards all who we meet, which btw, is the real basis for ‘equality’. Kindness is the best of mental states to develop and we should all do so. Were your relationship with your girlfriend based on genuine kindness, this would possibly have had a positive influence on her parents. But then, you would also have felt kindness towards them, but clearly you do not, instead you are pointing a finger at them. And this is wrong.

No one is perfect and it is not our place to judge other people. I do not expect you or your girlfriend to be perfect, and I would not judge you as wrong if you fail to follow the principle I’ve outlined. I put them forward for your consideration and can only hope that it helps.

I had more to say, but must rush out for an appointment. I may have a small window later tonight to respond to your further comments, but I leave early next morning to a place where I won't have internet access for three days.

Confused ji

I know its a general standard to marry within the community.I also know its down to the individual whether they follow or divert from that standard.I wanted to know how many sikhs have carried out the latter.
'The motives behind it all'?Sorry i can't make clear of what your saying.
I agree theres a difference between stating and doing.For hundreds of years idealistic attitudes have been shared among many.Hasn't there been plenty of time for practical applicaion to be applied?
Ok i agree under some conditions its harder to follow some rules.In religion though it is expected that rules be applied.Your saying its not hypocritical but because of social considerations? So would you agree that social considerations have took precedence over religious principles?
I disagree any hardheaded son or daughter would be with and marry who they want regardless of parents consent.
The parents to be happy would no doubt be the favourable alternative.But if the parents are happy or not there not the ones who will be in the relationship.
So are you saying because we owe them we should live as they want us to? Not to engage in anything thats against their desire even if its unintentional.No one is encouraging aversion on purpose.Is a son/daughter doing a bad deed because their happy?
Attachment has nothing to do with love.Attachment makes you anxious of becoming detached and brings about disorder of your wellbeing.When your attached you feel incomplete and have desire to extract feeling out of the other person to keep going.Your dependent on them.Thats not the nature of love.When your complete and need nothing from nobody you can provide love.
Your confusing the two.When your seeking to be made happy thats attachment.You have to be happy within yourself to love.
I had nothing nothing but kindness towards my ex's parents.I was all for meeting them.
I know everyones not perfect and so do you.Yet you've just judge me yourself by saying i didn't show kindness :S
.
Im sorry about the long reply.My internet was cut off for a few days.Thankyou for your reply