• Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
    Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
    Sign up Log in

A Wolf's View Of Sikhism

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
May 31, 2011
1,003
1,095
In the Self
With regards to natural selection,certain traits like ego may or may not be useful in so far as to ensure the survival of your ancestors DNA..

What Sikhism deals with are matters of the Soul.Not the survival of a certain species even Nuclear War cannot destroy what you really are!
Genes maybe selfish in order to ensure there own survival but that does not mean we should be selfish.We should not worry about why we are affected by the five, just watch out for them now,These maybe the manifestation of our lower self at it were and the virtues being our higher self.
 
Last edited:

Ishna

Writer
SPNer
May 9, 2006
3,261
5,192
Personally I enjoy looking at the history of evolution. I think it's interesting and can help form a perspective on the current human condition. Obviously that's not the be-all and end-all, but I see a balance of the physical/mundane and the spiritual in Sikhi.

So I see evolution as being relevant to relating to the "wolf within". I also think what our primitive ancestors did in the past to survive was totally justified in the situation. It was hukam, in my opinion.

I heard an interesting comment at my Gurdwara a couple of weeks ago when I was evesdropping on a Gurbani class, and it really got me thinking. I had previously been of the impression that the aim of the game was to 'become enlightened' or 'break the cycle and merge with Waheguru'. But the statement made during the class was that the aim of the game is to 'become Waheguru's slave'. Totally redirected my perspective - and it sounds so simple when put like that!

As humans we can't claw out of any cycle, merge with any creative source, no matter how hard we try. It's up to Waheguru's grace to liberate us. And we don't become attractive for that grace without surrendering and giving ourselves over to the hukam. So really, everything is superflous to existence except realising our place, listening for the hukam/shabad and singing along in tune.

Don't ask me how to do that, exactly. All I know is what Gurbani tells me, and to contradict my own earlier post, part of that would be to eliminate the 5 vices. Maybe I haven't read enough Gurbani to have a well-rounded knowledge of them yet. But so far, I know that encouraging the 5 virtues should go a long way to helping.

And if you compare the virtues to the vices, do they cancel each other out?

Vice
Kaam (lust)
Krodh (anger)
Lobh (greed)
Moh (attachment)
Ahankar (pride)

Virtue
Sat (truth)
Santokh (contentment)
Daya (compassion)
Nimrata (humility)
Pyare (love)

Oohh, it feels like one of those 'draw a line between the corresponding attributes' games you do in school.

I can see that Santokh and Moh go together, Krodh and Daya, Lobh and Nimrata, Sat and Ahankar... which funnily enough puts Pyare and Kaam together which is what Harry ji said on page 1!!! That's funny!

Any agreement here on combating the animal self with virtues or should I send myself off to the looney bin? :grinningkudi:
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 24, 2006
2,921
1,656
Ishna ji, life is like a Bollywood movie. If you try and work it out mentally, you will go insane. Rather just sit back and watch.

You see if it was possible to lay it all out and explain it to everyone, then it would have been done so already. I mean all these religions, prophets, gurus, tried to do it while at the same time saying they can't do it!

Clearly the explanations cannot capture that eternal essence.

PS I think the first virtue, Truth, cancels out all the vices. ;)
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,690
Ishna ji once one is created in creation, the creator expects us to live to the best with what we can do and does not set any rules per say. Survival to the extreme is part of this scheme. I do not believe one can exclude the following if these are needed for survival in any degree,

  • Kaam (lust)
  • Krodh (anger)
  • Lobh (greed)
  • Moh (attachment)
  • Ahankar (pride)
I believe almost all of these to some extent are part of the survival tool kit so not necessarily bad. I know many put lot of emphasis on eradication of such but for me the right balance with personal needs is the best approach.

I like Bhagat Singh ji's analogy of life as a movie a lot!

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Nov 14, 2004
408
388
63
Thailand
Bhagat ji,

Ishna ji, life is like a Bollywood movie. If you try and work it out mentally, you will go insane. Rather just sit back and watch.

Indeed this is how our normal mode of observation, i.e. like watching a movie. We are lost in the ocean of concepts, reacting one moment with greed, another with aversion and another with conceit but no understanding at all as to what is really taking place or what the reality of the moment is. So how is this better than “trying and work it out mentally�
 

BhagatSingh

SPNer
Apr 24, 2006
2,921
1,656
Yes. The normal mode of observation, as you describe it, is working everything out mentally. So not doing that, sitting back and simply being aware of life, of anything that happens. And if you find yourself getting involved mentally (that's also part of life), then again sit back and be aware of yourself getting involved mentally.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
55
Ishna ji once one is created in creation, the creator expects us to live to the best with what we can do and does not set any rules per say. Survival to the extreme is part of this scheme. I do not believe one can exclude the following if these are needed for survival in any degree,

  • Kaam (lust)
  • Krodh (anger)
  • Lobh (greed)
  • Moh (attachment)
  • Ahankar (pride)
I believe almost all of these to some extent are part of the survival tool kit so not necessarily bad. I know many put lot of emphasis on eradication of such but for me the right balance with personal needs is the best approach.

I like Bhagat Singh ji's analogy of life as a movie a lot!

Sat Sri Akal.

Having accepted the truth as the almighty, the only way one could be a slave to this truth would be in form of sewa I would assume, but moving onto Ambarsariaji's post, I have to agree that the these are needed and peace must be made with them to use them to full potential.

MY problem has always been that when I have been wolf, I have been complete wolf, and when man, a complete man, this has caused many many problems in my life to the point where my wife has locked up all my herman hesse books and forbidden me from reading them. I have tried to explain that I have felt like this way before I started reading, but she feels that I am validating my life with words that are not true. IN fact her exact phrase was 'if you respect the words of truth, then you cannot respect the words of this author, as although they contain some truth, they are like a rice pudding with small pieces of glass in, unless you extract the glass, you cannot eat the pudding, so you get used to eating rice pudding with the consequences of a bleeding mouth'

I then realised that she was correct. Harry, the wolf, abbraxus, pablo, hermine, none of these people exist, it is a fine magic theater that has led me here, but it is time to leave behind childish ways and think like an adult. Hesse led me to this point, and I thank him for that, but it is time for simplicity

On the whole, everything on the bad list will take you further away from the truth, and everything on the good list will bring you closer. We are not gods, we will have our days, but as long as you are getting closer and closer to the truth, I would say you are winning
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
May 31, 2011
1,003
1,095
In the Self
Dear Bhagat Singh Ji

We live life or play a role , so that would mean we are in the movie rather than watching it .And in that case mine would be a Spanish Thriller not a bollywood movie ,as I can't sing and dance and certainly can,t jump onto a horse backwards!
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,690
Dear Bhagat Singh

We live life or play a role , so that would mean we are in the movie rather than watching it .And in that case mine would be a Spanish Thriller not a bollywood movie ,as I can't sing and dance and certainly can,t jump onto a horse backwards!
Sinner Singh ji don't feel too too bad or be hard on yourself. You think Sunny Deol or Dharminder can sing and dance peacesign
YouTube - ‪Tu Kya Cheez Hai - Sunny Deol - Kashmira Shah - Champion - Bollywood Item Songs - Anu Malik‬‏

YouTube - ‪pakistan wedding the guy falls off the horse!!!!!!!!!!!!funny!!!!!!!!!!!‬‏

Sat Sri Akal.
 
Nov 14, 2004
408
388
63
Thailand
Bhagat ji,

Confused: Indeed this is how our normal mode of observation, i.e. like watching a movie. We are lost in the ocean of concepts, reacting one moment with greed, another with aversion and another with conceit but no understanding at all as to what is really taking place or what the reality of the moment is. So how is this better than “trying and work it out mentally”?

Yes. The normal mode of observation, as you describe it, is working everything out mentally. So not doing that, sitting back and simply being aware of life, of anything that happens. And if you find yourself getting involved mentally (that's also part of life), then again sit back and be aware of yourself getting involved mentally.

So you are saying that it should not be like how one normally watches a movie but a different way, perhaps with more 'detachment'?

I think we may have had this discussion before, but just to remind you about my own position in this matter, this is what I think (too much? ;-)):

Would it be fair to say that what you describe is similar to what J. Krishnamurti calls ‘choiceless awareness? If so, then according to my understanding that would still very much be in the realm of concepts perceived through ignorance at the minimum. Indeed when it has been recommended as a practice to follow, wrong understanding / view and attachment must be the main driving forces which in turn, inevitably conditions many instances of conceit as well. And all this together adds fuel to the illusion of result, and then we are trapped. Why do I say this? Because there is no “understanding” involved with regard to what is experienced through the five senses and the mind! And it is only through understanding that there is real detachment, otherwise it must be something else altogether.

It makes no difference then, if upon experience through the five senses, this is followed by an attempt to analyse the experience by way of some background knowledge or allowing the attention to simply move from one object to another without the kind of mental working out. The truth is that if wisdom did arise to understanding any one of the experience through these six doors, it would know them as conditioned and each different from the other. Also all this would be quite disconnected and not flowing and seamless. After all, seeing is not hearing and sound is not smell, and not only are they different in characteristics, but also the proximate cause, function and manifestation are very distinct.

Mental proliferation isn't really about being lost in concepts, but of being influenced by attachment, conceit or view. And these can and often arise before there is any thinking. So when someone is involved in trying hard to analyze his experience, it is not the amount of thinking which is indicative of the wrongness of the activity, but whether this is fueled by one of the three mental proliferations mentioned above. It could be that most of the time, only attachment is there. On the other hand, another person in believing wrongly that thinking is the problem and seeks to avoid the kind of activity and is attracted by the idea of ‘choiceless awareness, this person is clearly being motivated by wrong view as well.

When such a person then follows the kind of practice he has projected as being the solution, this invariably will then also be driven by much attachment and on and off give rise to conceit. So which is in fact worse? Having the habit of analyzing one's experiences, or involved in a practice believed wrongly as being the way out because of the results that come with it? I think that the latter is worse in that while the former is open to suggestions of what in fact is the correct practice, the latter in mistaking wrong practice for right practice, has added to the difficulty for any correction taking place.

So in a way, I think we do need to be serious and think much about these things. Besides there is no more and no less thinking between any two persons, only who thinks rightly and who wrongly. An enlightened person does not think any less than an uninstructed worldling. The difference is that in the one, wisdom arises every now and then to insight into the nature of the moment, whereas in the other, ignorance, attachment, aversion, conceit and wrong understanding arises all the time. Indeed the Buddha has been called the Great Analyzer, in light of the fact that his insight has penetrated into the workings of all mental and physical phenomena from which he then gave us all the details.

You mentioned Vipassana in another message, and the above is what Vipassana is all about. You also said that it and all the other practices that you mentioned lead to the same goal. But given what I've written, does it look like that what you believe is correct? I believe that if the Truth is known, exactly the same understanding / set of teachings will be derived from it by any two persons who have known it. The difference in the core teachings of all religions in my opinion reflects the fact that the understanding is not the same and this must therefore lead to different goals. And I don't understand why people like to entertain the notion that the so called different paths all lead to the same destination, when the individual religions themselves give out the general impression that theirs is the correct one whereas the others are not! Sounds like a romanticization and very New Agey to me….
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
SPNer
Jan 31, 2011
5,769
8,194
55
Well, life as a man seems far different to life as a wolf/man. My wife has asked me over the years to see further than 'the book', I never managed to fully comprehend how the book ends, I know Harry manages to resolve his identity by accepting that between man and wolf lie a million other different personalities, and by also accepting that life was nothing more than a magic theater in which we wear our personalities as costumes to play whichever character we wish to on a particular day. This ties in with dear Bhagatji's thoughts on life being a film.., I would say again, if I knew of the existence of the knowledge contained in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I would have read and mastered that instead, but better late than never.

I feel more at peace, and a little less glamorous, which is probably the last few scraps that my ego is hanging on to.

Having seen things from a different angle for a few days now, I would like to make a few observations.

I think all religions should have ended up in the same place, but some are thousands of years old, and some of the core manuscripts have been translated from the original to a different language and then translated again. Given the loss incurred in translation, and the input of the translator, could explain why some religious manuscripts seem to contradict themselves. The logical thing to do therefore would be to find one of the youngest religions, so that you are reading as close as possible to the original, who knows what the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji will look like in 1500 years in your average gurdwara.

Is it a responsible thing to do for a person to find the creator if the wordly side of life is not correct. By that I mean, before you can merge with the creator, one must ensure that you can make a living, have a roof over your head, and provide for your family,. If there is no food on the table, what is the point of knowledge. I have spent much time of late reading books and thinking, and although We are not destitute, I know in different circumstances I could easily be an ascetic, luckily, so could my wife, but there is a responsibility to provide for your family, that I think is greater than the responsibility to find god. Luckily, if you live modestly, it is not hard to earn enough to free yourself from this, but harder if you need to drive the right car, live in the right house.

Ambersariaji once talked of animals eyes, and I never forgot that. Animals are fascinating to watch, we have in total 2 dogs (Dan/Alfie), 3 cats (Virgil, Bailey, Layla) and 4 ferrets (charlie, lowla, spot, and no name), and all of them have one thing in common, they absolutely worship my wife. Im not sure why they worship her, I feed them every other day, normally its me that feeds the cats at 4am! But in bed last night, I watched dan, my youngest dog. As he looked at my wife, I looked into his eyes, and saw the sort of love you rarely see in humans, he looked at my wife like he was looking at a god, and given humans are born with the ability to find god, but animals are not, one must assume animals look at some owners like gods, my wife was lying on her side with dan in the middle of us, he kissed her face, licked it, and then just sat and looked at her, although dan has every much lust, ego and pride as any human, in his eyes I only saw contentment.Alfie was licking my wifes feet at the foot of the bed, he was also contented, but a tiny amount of fear, I looked at him closely, the fear was that someone, namely me, would probably stop him licking my wifes feet, and convince him to get on the floor. I then looked at my wife, she never stops talking to the dogs, praising and encouraging. When dan was younger, I slapped his bottom because he would not get out of the car, I had never had a dog before, I thought they needed discipline, 10 mins later I passed the living room to see my wife lying on the floor facing dan, she was talking to him, all i could make out was, daddy isnt angry with you, he didnt mean to hit you, but this murmuring went on for some time, until, comforted, dan came to find me, and i give him a huge cuddle, I never ever raised my hand against an animal after that, regardless how naughty they were. Dan was lucky, Dan had a god.

I find it difficult to let go with the dogs, my wife is constantly talking to them , checking them, to me, I suppose they are a bit of a tie, I love them, but not like my wife does. For some reason, I feel that I will be unable to love the part of me that is pure until I can really love my dogs. Sounds corny, probably is, but there is something so innocent and pure about my wifes love for them, that I feel it will be a lesson to love something that has the lust taken out of it, maybe this is what I have been struggling with for so long, I find it easy to love my wife, if I am honest, I find it difficult to love anyone else as much, I have never had children, and before my wife, no pets. At the start, when she first brought Dan home, i saw him as a huge infringement on our time, and after a couple of months, I actually said 'Im not sure I can do this, he is doing his business everywhere and whines outside the bedroom', my wife replied very cheerily, 'ok, no problem, just go get him put down', she knew I could never do that, she also knew that after that point, it became my decision, not hers, so dan stayed, and I taught him to do all the things you teach your dog, other than discipline, he has none, he just knows love, he sits next to me when I eat, he puts his paw round my back when I drive, and no one ever raises a hand to him or shouts at him. I would add that both the dogs look at me with love mixed with disappointment as if they know my love has its limits, to them I am not a god, Im just Dad. The quicker that disappointment look fades, for some reason ties in with my own search for the truth within,

thank you for reading
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,690
For Harry Haller ji mundahug. Our Prince. I did not use to (winkingmunda) like pets and now he comes by if I cough or sneeze the wrong way. Sees me out and sees me in any time day or night.

Creation all around and within us defines what God is!

R2.jpg

R1.jpg


The breed is[FONT=arial,helvetica] "Tibetan Spaniel[/FONT]". These were started and nurtured through the ages by Tibetan monks as watch dogs for acute senses. These are very high metabolic rate as well and have been called bed warmers. There is no hair but actually fur. These develop an undercoat for winter months which is shed during spring. Feisty, independent, loving, loyal; enjoys sun, snow and shade; eats prashad, paratha, biryani, goat meat with mild spices and weight control meal lollol if eating too much of the goodies.

Sat Sri Akal

PS: spnadmin ji if out of context, please delete.
 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,690
Sinner Singh ji thanks.

Now we are getting to some cross roads.

So big question for all Guru de Pyario Jios,


  • Dogs evolved from Wolves (I agree with such hypothesis)
    • If you agree, pray tell me if,
      • If the dogs have all the God that they once had as wolves!
      • Did the dogs lose all the devil or other attributes considered bad in Wolves
      • Or each and everything if sustained by creation actually fits into creation
        • None is good or bad but is just part of creation
  • Let us take another baby step and say Humans evolved from monkeys (I agree with such hypothesis)
    • If you agree, pray tell me,
      • Do we still have the same God as we did when we were monkeys
      • Did we somehow become better than monkeys in God's eyes by losing so called bad and gaining something good
      • Or each and everything if sustained by creation actually fits into creation
        • None is good or bad but is just part of creation
Creator has rules and capabilities supporting each that is created for sustenance, survival and inter-working with other types of creation around.

 

Ambarsaria

ੴ / Ik▫oaʼnkār
Writer
SPNer
Dec 21, 2010
3,384
5,690
Once I had a Lhasa Apso (almost like a Tibetan spaniel). The Tibetan name is 'barking sentinel lion dog." Also named Prince.
spnadmin ji thanks and you are absolutely right about "barking sentinel lion dog". He does look a little like a lion too and definitely has the pride of one peacesign.

Our dog is not named "Prince" he just acts like one. I won't reveal his real name without his permission lolmundahug.

Sat Sri Akal.
 

Ishna

Writer
SPNer
May 9, 2006
3,261
5,192
I had a pomeranian x maltese who looked just like a Tibetan Spaniel which my mum and I named DUKE. Go the royals.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
SPNer
May 31, 2011
1,003
1,095
In the Self
Dear Ambarsaria Ji

Quote "Our dog is not named "Prince" he just acts like one. I won't reveal his real name without his permission ".
I had a dog too, but as you have not divulged your dogs name, I shall go one step further and not state what dog I had , Oh and my dog was not a "dog" she was a ***** !:mundabhangra:
 
📌 For all latest updates, follow the Official Sikh Philosophy Network Whatsapp Channel:

Latest Activity

Top