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A Decision On The Razor's Edge

Harry Haller

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I spent quite a long time last night thinking about Ek Onkar, if we were to take the words
One creator present as one essence everywhere
which is the conclusion Ambersariaji came to, and contemplate this, then I can now see the basis of our entire appearance and culture, certainly with respect to Kesh, the above statement to me says, keep in tune with the Creator and creation, and that is the bliss that some people talk about, when they are so in tune with creation, that they are walking on air. In such a state, then not touching even a single hair makes the most complete sense.

So how do we get to that point, not by beating ourselves up, not by guilt, but by understanding. Keeping your hair will not get you this understanding any quicker, the keeping of the hair is a byproduct of that understanding, if you have that understanding then you will be at peace with yourself and your hair, if you do not, then it does not matter, BUT, cultivating hair out of no other reason than you should, is not, in my view, the ideal situation.

Back to cars.... I have always wanted an overfinch, they are special edition range rovers but uprated. They look just like a standard car, but with a tiny overfinch badge front and rear, I always find myself highly amused when I see Range Rovers driving about with twin exhausts, blingy wheels, road tyres, and a bigger than normal overfinch badge. They clearly have not been uprated, they will still have standard suspension, the standard 3.9 V8, in fact they look a little silly, the badge is an indication of what is inside, but these people have focused on the badge and image alone, without the mechanics to back it up.

Having said that, these people are still enthusiasts, they want the full package, they just do not have the time or energy to go deeper, one day they will,

Hair is a very personal matter, My personal view is that until you have the ability to connect with the essence of Creator that exists in your hair, until you have the need to present yourself as Creator intended, whole, complete, until you can marvel at the hair on your legs, or under your arms, then you may as well remove it, and concentrate on getting to that point where it all just flows

I think that anyone who is uncomfortable with excess hair should not be made to suffer, or feel that they are having to make a choice between religion and confidence, there is no choice, we are all intelligent beings and have been given brains to decipher between what is allowing creation to flow, and what is hampering our ability to flow, some may find more pleasure in keeping every hair, no matter what, some may find that hard and make a compromise, it all really depends on your place in creation and relationship with Creator, nothing is right, nothing is wrong, its all down to your heart
 

findingmyway

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Aug 18, 2010
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"Take my head, but do not take my Sikhi."
Spnadmin ji, thanks for this reminder. I never got married as I refused to compromise on my Sikhi. For a long time I was angry at the double standards of Sikh men but then I realised it is not their problem but mine to accept whatever hukam comes my way, including not marrying. Swimming is not a problem as leggings and a RASH shirt are worn over the swimming costume, eyebrows not a problem as it serves no purpose to shape them but is pure vanity (like make up). Things can be overcome!! When people comment on the hairiness it is a great opportunity to educate. My only problem now is facial hair. Men on this forum immediately jump to the conclusion medical help is needed but facial hair is normal on a woman. The difficulty is when it interferes with the job as patients react differently to that more than anything else. It is not my patients fault but mine as I have not yet overcome this issue in myself. Society does put pressures on women but let women take the bull by the horns and tackle those pressures head on if it means enough to you. If not then no problem but at least don't become an obstacle in another woman's path.
 

Ishna

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Findingmyway ji, how are eyebrows any different from other facial hair on a woman? If, like me, you have eyebrows that want to meet in the middle, people look down on you for that, like if you had a hair sticking out of your nose!

I'm guilty of plucking a few hairs from my monobrow because in my culture, a monobrow on a person is seen as meaning they have no sense of self awareness/cleanliness and have a deficiency in their intelligence. You can call it vanity if you like, but I do struggle that people look at my monobrow and think 'she must be really dumb if she can't see that or do anything about it'. And when I'm often the face of the CEO I assist, I worry about that first impression for his sake.

I admit to being embarrased recently while getting fitted for a bra, we were having difficulty finding one my size, and you have to lift your arms up so they can see how the bra is sitting around your body, and every time I lifted my arms up I thought 'she must think I'm really dirty for these bushy underams'. I even apologised for it. :(

I want to embrace my kesh but dang it's difficult sometimes in the face of what people think of you.
 
Last edited:
Jul 10, 2004
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Findingmyway ji, how are eyebrows any different from other facial hair on a woman? If, like me, you have eyebrows that want to meet in the middle, people look down on you for that, like if you had a hair sticking out of your nose!

I'm guilty of plucking a few hairs from my monobrow because in my culture, a monobrow on a person is seen as meaning they have no sense of self awareness/cleanliness and have a deficiency in their intelligence. You can call it vanity if you like, but I do struggle that people look at my monobrow and think 'she must be really dumb if she can't see that or do anything about it'. And when I'm often the face of the CEO I assist, I worry about that first impression for his sake.
Sorry for sounding a bit harsh but this comment represents a person with very low level of self-exteem. How having mono-brow hair makes a person dumb sans any logic or merit? This is only your personal perception. Generalizing it is a bit unfortunate and naive. Rather people reacting to mono-brow hair in this fashion, if at all, must have a very low IQ in my perspective. I don't understand which culture you are talking about? People like you and me make this society and culture. And I am sure your CEO would be least bothered about your looks and more interested in your business talent and how you can benefit him/her. right?

I admit to being embarrased recently while getting fitted for a bra, we were having difficulty finding one my size, and you have to lift your arms up so they can see how the bra is sitting around your body, and every time I lifted my arms up I thought 'she must think I'm really dirty for these bushy underarms'. I even apologized for it.
You should be only representing your own-self and not the entire womanhood! Right? Rather I am surprised that you were not embarrassed while posting this comment in a public forum! I never knew in Australia, in a shopping Mall, women had to do it in open! :blushh: Besides this is not my point. This is again a case of a person with very low self-esteem. Perhaps writing all this to justify yourself.

Again, how and since when did hair in underarms or other body parts started representing a dirty lifestyle? Besides Shahrukh Khans and Salman Khans, how many men in in real life remove their bodily hair in their underarms or other body parts? By my estimate not more than 2% worldwide. Right? Then by your admission all men must be dirty! :noticemunda:
 

Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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I think its the younger generation who has to search INNER-SELF so as to exist in a society where they simply have to compete with others in all sorts...........BE A SIKH AT HEART then FEEL PROUD TO BE A SIKH.
jssands ji,

Guru fateh.

How can the younger generation be forced to search their INNER-SELF so as to exist in a society where they simply have to compete with others in all sorts without the help and the guidance of the older generation- their parents?

Compete in what sense?

How can the young Sikh be a Sikh at heart and feel proud without their parents instilling in him or her the Sikh values?

Please elaborate your thought a bit more if you do not mind.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh
 

Tejwant Singh

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Jun 30, 2004
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Henderson, NV.
Sorry for sounding a bit harsh but this comment represents a person with very low level of self-exteem. How having mono-brow hair makes a person dumb sans any logic or merit? This is only your personal perception. Generalizing it is a bit unfortunate and naive. Rather people reacting to mono-brow hair in this fashion, if at all, must have a very low IQ in my perspective. I don't understand which culture you are talking about? People like you and me make this society and culture. And I am sure your CEO would be least bothered about your looks and more interested in your business talent and how you can benefit him/her. right?

You should be only representing your own-self and not the entire womanhood! Right? Rather I am surprised that you were not embarrassed while posting this comment in a public forum! I never knew in Australia, in a shopping Mall, women had to do it in open! :blushh: Besides this is not my point. This is again a case of a person with very low self-esteem. Perhaps writing all this to justify yourself.

Again, how and since when did hair in underarms or other body parts started representing a dirty lifestyle? Besides Shahrukh Khans and Salman Khans, how many men in in real life remove their bodily hair in their underarms or other body parts? By my estimate not more than 2% worldwide. Right? Then by your admission all men must be dirty! :noticemunda:
Critical Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Sorry to barge in but I feel compelled to respond. You are not only being harsh but very judgmental and unfair to Ishna ji in my opinion without giving it a second thought about her back ground which is not Punjabi, hence her conflicts for the time being between the tradition of keeping hair with the message in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru.

In my opinion, Ishna ji has shown more Sikhi in many aspects, and her love and devotion is commendable. She deserves a lot of credit for being honest and upfront with a few things she finds herself struggling with, in this case her uni-brow despite keeping her hair on the rest. She is also honest about her underarm hair and felt embarrassed, truly because of the cultural aspect as the other person who seems not to be a Sikh may find it odd.

Let's give it a shot to understand people who are coming into the Sikhi fold rather than scolding them for lack of their self-esteem. Let's give them credit for not being hypocritical as Sikhs of Punjabi origin with full baana tend to be and they are not a few in number.

I apologise for my bluntness.

Tejwant Singh
 

ravneet_sb

Writer
SPNer
Nov 5, 2010
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Sat sri akaal,

progress is the way,

be simple and progressive

people work for progressive, follow progressive.

Any way

waheguru ji ka khalsa
waheguru ji ki fateh
 

Ishna

Enthusiast
Writer
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May 9, 2006
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Sorry for sounding a bit harsh but this comment represents a person with very low level of self-exteem.
Actually yes, the person (that would be me) does have very low self-esteem, congratulations on your astute observation. Sometimes I come to this forum for support and validation and most folks here kindly oblige. Your criticism will ultimately only serve to strengthen me.

I tend to put it all out there the way I see it and feel it because I know some people fear the rebuttle occasionaly encountered. Case in point. But to keep fears and concerns hidden from the community doesn't always help people deal with the problems and face the issues. If I bring them out the way I seem them, it hopefully helps others with similar feelings who might not be willing to put it out there themselves.

How having mono-brow hair makes a person dumb sans any logic or merit? This is only your personal perception. Generalizing it is a bit unfortunate and naive. Rather people reacting to mono-brow hair in this fashion, if at all, must have a very low IQ in my perspective. I don't understand which culture you are talking about?
You have generalized with your own IQ statement. That is a bit unfortunate.

And stereotypes do exist, I am merely parroting one common one I have encountered in how people with monobrows have been perceived.

You should be only representing your own-self and not the entire womanhood! Right? Rather I am surprised that you were not embarrassed while posting this comment in a public forum!
I am not embarrassed posting this in a public forum. The beauty of anonymity online. And I am consoled by my previous statement that I have (frankly) the ba11s to post what other people might not be so confident to, and I hope that my bringing it to light might help them.

Sorry if I embarrassed YOU with my anecdote.

I never knew in Australia, in a shopping Mall, women had to do it in open!
No, you don't do it in the open, you do it with a sales lady in a dressing room. I don't know how I gave you the impression I've been flashing myself around in public (except in online forums).

This is again a case of a person with very low self-esteem. Perhaps writing all this to justify yourself.
Discuss issues, not personalities, you already said I have low self-esteem, do you want a gold star?

Again, how and since when did hair in underarms or other body parts started representing a dirty lifestyle? Besides Shahrukh Khans and Salman Khans, how many men in in real life remove their bodily hair in their underarms or other body parts? By my estimate not more than 2% worldwide. Right? Then by your admission all men must be dirty! :noticemunda:
Sorry to be blunt in return, but in the culture I was raised in, beards are seen as dirty crumb catchers, men usually have more body odour than women, it is expected for them to burp and far7 and carry on like men, SO hairiness is seen as exclusively masculine and women with hair are seen as one step away from burping and far7ting and being unable to take the time to properly groom themselves to the societies standards, and therefore careless and dirty.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
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May 31, 2011
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Isi ji The attire and rehat of the Guru ji seems frozen in time,a few hundred years have passed no one says anything about the fact our dress code has changed , they say he once said 'jaisa desh thaisa pais ,gale thoti modai kesh' which means 'as is the country so is my appearance ,my hair is on my shoulder and on my waist is a dhoti'
So why did he change his style and adopt the style of the locality? Because he was supreme majesty , had a strict discipline and yet still was able to adapt himself to the customs that were prevalent.
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

Writer
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Jan 29, 2011
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We never listen to our moms as children but things do come back. One important thing was, to concentrate on the food you are eating and don't do anything else (like watch TV).

beards are seen as dirty crumb catchers
And now I see why, I have a lot of such catchy problems while eating food with open beard. I wonder why this is happening. What kind of sign that was? And then I was reminded of mom's instruction. I started eating food staring at my plate. And whoa I never had food falling from the spoon and sticking to my beard. For my beard was at an angle away from the trajectory of food!
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
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We never listen to our moms as children but things do come back. One important thing was, to concentrate on the food you are eating and don't do anything else
Veera Kanwaljit

Ishna ji was trying to pointi out the complete lack of respect and religious significance a beard has in her particular culture.

Those were just details you focused on,try to interpret what she's really trying to say!
 

findingmyway

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Aug 18, 2010
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Veera Kanwaljit

Ishna ji was trying to pointi out the complete lack of respect and religious significance a beard has in her particular culture.

Those were just details you focused on,try to interpret what she's really trying to say!
Veera, you and Ambarsaria ji have frequently completely missed the main points in my post and mocked a cheeky amusing comment I added as an afterthought. I don't think any of Kanwaljit ji's comments have been wildly off topic or out of place!
 

Kanwaljit.Singh

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I know sometimes I let my train of thoughts go wild. The thing is my mom never lets me keep my beard open. And I could never support it with proper reasons, specially when she would hit me with bread crumb beard scenario. But with time, with better understanding of your own religion and values, you can stand up for them and face the world in time. It takes time and patience.
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
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I know sometimes I let my train of thoughts go wild. The thing is my mom never lets me keep my beard open. And I could never support it with proper reasons, specially when she would hit me with bread crumb beard scenario.
Veera ,I understand as I kept mine open always,but if you look her post is addressed to Critical Singh and by his own admission it is a harsh post. Since when were we harsh with our sisters?

Thank God the Panj Pyaare were name sakes of virtue, like Daya Singh and Dharam Singh, names like Sinner Singh or Critical Singh would not inspire anyone to practice anything but that which they obviously state .
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>mÚ 2 ] </TD></TR><TR><TD>Second Mehl: </TD></TR><TR><TD>mehlaa 2. </TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>bDw ctI jo Bry nw guxu nw aupkwru ] </TD></TR><TR><TD>Paying a fine under pressure, does not bring either merit or goodness. </TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>syqI KusI svwrIAY nwnk kwrju swru ]3] </TD></TR><TR><TD>That alone is a good deed, O Guru Nanak, which is done by one`s own free will. ||3|| </TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 

Spades

SPNer
Aug 12, 2010
32
34
I grimaced when I read the statement in the article:

"Let's put religion aside and be real," said Sumita Batra, a Sikh who owns a chain of 16 hair removal studios across Southern California and Las Vegas. "Who … is attracted to a hairy-legged, mustached woman?"

I wonder at calling someone who publicly makes a living encouraging Sikhs to break a basic tenet of their religion a Sikh. I still consider monas to be Sikhs, but I sort of draw the line at what Sumita Batra is doing.
But she is correct in most cases. If you take a clear look at Sikh-Born Punjabis you see that clean shaven men and women are clearly preferred over people that keep the 5Ks. She's just the product of the system and what people prefer. The later of which is probably a mixture of what the global culture has taught us combined with what people innately find desirable.

I am not one of those who believes that monas are not Sikhs. I cannot make that judgment. We are all at different stages of this journey and keeping kes is not meaningful to some, some are forced to cut/ shave by family pressure and some simply don't have the courage to keep kes. Each of us is where we are. Still, I think those who choose to follow external definitions of beauty are missing a lot of the meaning and spirituality of being a Sikh. At the risk of being patronising, I feel a bit sorry for them; they are missing a beautiful, vital part of their heritage. motherlylove
I am going to be a bit blunt on this point as well...

Screw my heritage.

Just because people did something in the past from a country that my immediate predecessors came from doesn't mean that I should feel obligated to follow it. Sentiments like the one in red usually make me want to get my head shaven skinhead style. Then again I've been flirting with that idea for a while.
 

Harry Haller

Panga Master
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Jan 31, 2011
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But she is correct in most cases. If you take a clear look at Sikh-Born Punjabis you see that clean shaven men and women are clearly preferred over people that keep the 5Ks. She's just the product of the system and what people prefer. The later of which is probably a mixture of what the global culture has taught us combined with what people innately find desirable.



I am going to be a bit blunt on this point as well...

Screw my heritage.

Just because people did something in the past from a country that my immediate predecessors came from doesn't mean that I should feel obligated to follow it. Sentiments like the one in red usually make me want to get my head shaven skinhead style. Then again I've been flirting with that idea for a while.
You seem determined to ruffle a few feathers today my angry little friend, I will allow Maiji to reply to your post, as she is more of a warrior saint than I will ever be, and more than you could even dream to be.

You seem to be trapped in a mental thought cycle. You are free to get your head shaven skinhead style if you so wish, why should that affect any of us?, If your intending to do it for shock value, I am afraid I have beaten you to it, I have so little hair now, that it is the only style that makes me look half civilised and not like some jungli. The hair is oneness with nature and with the Creator, to have the hair is to be whole, I only remarked to my wife this morning that one day, when we understand better, we will see the cutting of our hair as the cutting of flesh, it will hurt us, it will be like writing a letter and realising our thumb is missing, so from one skinhead to another potential one, what is the difference between us, well to me, my heritage is all I have, the blood of warriors and poets flows in my veins, as it does my wife, being celtic, we both have an awareness of where we came from, its all we have, and its all we have to offer to others both when we die, and while we are alive.

The key difference is that I am acutely aware of what I could feel about my hair, and look forward to the day when I see it as the gift it is, I have an inkling already, an understanding, but it is not something that can be forced, I cannot force myself to want to keep my hair, I just need more understanding.

You are angry, and you want to hurt, and you want to hurt by hurting yourself, you are behaving like a child, which is not the insult it may appear to be, we all behave like children until we have understood the Gurus message, it turns babies like you and me, into MEN and WOMEN, like dear Mai ji, Adminji, Ambersariaji, Gyaniji, these are MEN and WOMEN, the real deal, the real article.

In your last post you behaved like a small child, you will either grow up a bit and understand what made me come to this conclusion, or you will behave like a smaller child still and maybe threaten to soil your pants and scream, your call my friend
 

Scarlet Pimpernel

We seek him here,we sikh
Writer
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May 31, 2011
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Harry Haller said:
You seem determined to ruffle a few feathers today my angry little friend, I will allow Maiji to reply to your post, as she is more of a warrior saint than I will ever be, and more than you could even dream to be.
Veer ji we never know who will become a warrior saint in the future,I understand your reasoning for rebuttle but trust me when I say Mai ji is more than capable of defence and no shrinking violet,also I realise that you are a musketeer and it's in your code to defend others.

It was not specific to Mai ji,Spades ji was just pointing out a common train of thought that some with kesh sometimes have a feeling of being the approved ,this is something their unfortunate poorer cousins ,the monai don't really carry with them.

Some monai may carry some guilt of not having kesh or feel inferior but both of these mindsets are not beneficial.Spades ji is much less evil than he thinks he is, just as most of us are not as good as we think we are,where he is good is that there is room there for improvement,the state of thinking that your good or approved leaves little room for refinement or improvement .

A Sikh with kesh is doing what he believes to be right and that is reward in itself no need to feel sorry for anyone or feel better,when we look before we cross a road it is right to do so,no point feeling that you are better solely by doing what you think is right.

Now me having experienced the world of extra portion prashaad and small portion I feel it is better just to be and not think to be.
 

ravneet_sb

Writer
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Nov 5, 2010
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SAT SRI AKAAL,

If all are brothers and sisters.

In "REAL" relations negatives are defended or secreted

But when relation is with outside boundary then reality is different.

Make relation as "REAL" one's

One progress if one shed's "DUALITY"
"Duality" has no end
One cannot reach anywhere if one puts a step forward and backward progress is slow


No one can get other's situation.
Man one cannot realize pain of pregnancy.
But yes one can understand other.

So some actions are painful and to others it can be bliss

It is important to realise "GURU's BANI"

and

follow universal thought process.

Shed Duality, Shed Ego stay

If we give bad emotion, we get bad emotion
If we give fear, we get.
That's why politicians, police needs guns. They have inside feer.

What we sow that we reap.

Say and stay with one's self.
No discussion.

Discuss "GURU's MAT"


Most of feelings are situational.
Situation cause feelings and feelings cause action
It' s cyclic. One causes other.

Shed Duality.
To uplift thought, and maintain META PHYSICAL balance,

the process is

Do what you think or
What "one" can do think that only.


Close redundant thoughts/discussions/actions.
Stay as ONE and stay in bliss

Till outer has no inner influence.
Someone shall break and let one come out of it.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ka Fateh
 

Spades

SPNer
Aug 12, 2010
32
34
You seem determined to ruffle a few feathers today my angry little friend, I will allow Maiji to reply to your post, as she is more of a warrior saint than I will ever be, and more than you could even dream to be.
You will allow Mai to respond? When did she need your permission to reply to a post?

Also you do realize that I no longer associate myself with Sikhism? Therefore I have no desire to become a "warrior saint".

You seem to be trapped in a mental thought cycle. You are free to get your head shaven skinhead style if you so wish, why should that affect any of us?, If your intending to do it for shock value, I am afraid I have beaten you to it, I have so little hair now, that it is the only style that makes me look half civilised and not like some jungli.
Why do I want to shave my head bald? It's just something I'm curious to try.

The hair is oneness with nature and with the Creator, to have the hair is to be whole, I only remarked to my wife this morning that one day, when we understand better, we will see the cutting of our hair as the cutting of flesh, it will hurt us, it will be like writing a letter and realising our thumb is missing, so from one skinhead to another potential one, what is the difference between us, well to me, my heritage is all I have, the blood of warriors and poets flows in my veins, as it does my wife, being celtic, we both have an awareness of where we came from, its all we have, and its all we have to offer to others both when we die, and while we are alive.
Where do I even start with this one?

1) I'm not a Sikh so I don't really hold a belief that hair is something that unites me with a "Creator".

2) You may also have the blood of thieves, hookers, and murderers flowing through your veins as well. You don't know what your distant ancestors did as a profession 400-500 years ago.

3) You are seriously selling yourself short if you think that the greatest thing to be proud is the fact that you just happened to be born to a Punjabi-Sikh family. If it is then that is kind of sad bro.

You are angry, and you want to hurt, and you want to hurt by hurting yourself, you are behaving like a child, which is not the insult it may appear to be, we all behave like children until we have understood the Gurus message, it turns babies like you and me, into MEN and WOMEN, like dear Mai ji, Adminji, Ambersariaji, Gyaniji, these are MEN and WOMEN, the real deal, the real article.
The arrogance is over 9000 here. So according to you only Amritdhari Sikhs can be seen as ADULTS? Then you try to diagnose me from your high horse?

The projection is also something to behold. You are the one that is clearly angry and throwing a temper tantrum in the form of text.

In your last post you behaved like a small child, you will either grow up a bit and understand what made me come to this conclusion, or you will behave like a smaller child still and maybe threaten to soil your pants and scream, your call my friend
Projection can be a B.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Some monai may carry some guilt of not having kesh or feel inferior but both of these mindsets are not beneficial.Spades ji is much less evil than he thinks he is, just as most of us are not as good as we think we are,where he is good is that there is room there for improvement,the state of thinking that your good or approved leaves little room for refinement or improvement .
I don't think I'm evil. That's just something I put in for a joke along with "Sith" & "C.R.E.A.M." I also don't think I'm a pirate just because I have the Jolly Roger as my flag.
 

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