5 Kakars Questions

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

A lot of readers of this Forum ( and also all over the Sikh World) have been misled into beleiving that the 5 Kakaars...are an "invention"..."imposition"..etc by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI....and have nothing to do with the previous NINE GURUS. This is shown by their statements..There is NOTHING about the Five Ks in Gurbani..where is it written in Guru Granth Ji..etc etc etc..????

What a HUGE MISCONCEPTION.... The Five Kakaars are the GIFT of GURU NANAK...they are ALL inside the Gurbani of GURU GRANTH JI....

This is a huge subject and i will tackle it bit by bit..but please bear with me... as we go along.

The FIRST thing to note about GURMATT/SIKHI/...is that this is GURU NANAK JIs GIFT to this World. Nothing about Sikhi and Gurmatt can even be discussed without referring to Gurbani and Directions of Guru nanak ji Sahib...He is the FOUNTAIN HEAD of Gurmatt.....and even IF Water out of aFountain does flow Downstream....and change a bit or alter its course...IT STILL BEGINS its journey from the Fountain Head.

The Second thing to note here is that WHATEVER Direction Guur nanak ji Sahib gave us...Its ALL written down in Black and White for us for eternity in the GURU GRANTH JI SAHIB. No need to go looking elsewhere...Dasam granth...or other Granths..etc.

Guru nanak ji began the MANSION/PALACE of Gurmatt/Sikhi....the NAAM NIranjan is the MAIN THEME..and SHABAD SURT is the FOUNDATION of this Mansion.

TO continue this Central Theme if NAAM further Guru ANGAD JI SAHIB declares..Naanak AMRIT EK HAI..Dooja AMRIT NAHIN... OH Nanak..there is ONLY ONE AMRIT..no other..

Does Guru Amardass Ji differ from this central theme in any way..NO SIREE..Guru Amardass Ji declares..Shabad MAROh fir jeevoh sadhee tan fir maran na hoi...IF one DIES (Submerges) into SHABAD..the He LIVES for Life EVERLASTING..and NEVER DIES AGAIN... Shabad is for ETERNITY..Shabad is AMRIT for Eternal Life everlasting..
fDo we find any change in this line of thought when Guru Amardass Ji takes over...NO. Guru Ramdass Ji declares...Jin Har arth sreer lagaiyah..Gur SHABAD GURU..GUR KE...Guru ramdass Ji loves the Dust of GURU SHABAD

What happens when Guru arjun Ji comes into Guruhood...any changes ?? NO. Guru Arjun compiles the Shabad into a Granth...and GIVES HIS DIVINE LIFE for its SANCTITY...and Greatness be preserved...This Central Theme is preserved in Guru Granth Ji as "philosophical thought"..and in Harmandir Sahib Darbar sahib's Foundation stone beign laid by a MUSLIM Peer Sain Main Mir in PRACTICAL FORM to show the New Universal Thought is really and truly UNIVERSAL and breaks all Barriers of caste, rich poor, religion, etc etc etc.

Then Guru Hargobind Ji arrives on the SCENE... we see the Twin Swords of MIRI and PIRI in his Gatra and the Double Edged KHANDA in His hands....and we begin to TREMBLE.... some begin to "see" a "departure" from GURU Nanak Ji..others begin to say..OH Guru hargobind Ji has CHANGED the Peaceful religion of the Previous Five GURUS.....But wait a MINUTE..folks... HAR NAAM KHAG ( The NAAM of HAR is SWORD ) is put into GURBANI by GURU ARJUN JI HIMSELF. DHARAM is JUSTICE....so declare Guru nanak Ji, Guur Angad Ji, guru Amardass Ji, Guru ramdass Ji and Guru arjun Ji....so when we look at AKAL TAKHAT..its wrong for us to say Guru Hargobind ji has "changed" the Direction of Sikhi/Gurmatt ..change of thought. change of Theme..?/ NO.
IF we care to look at Guru Naanak Ji ..carefully enough we can see clearly thet He is Holding the SACH KI KATEE sword in His Hnads..Kamar Katara bunkarra is clearly visible. Defence of DHARAM/JUSTICE sometimes NEEDS the SWORD...hence Guru Gobind Singh later declared this fact..but He takes his lead from GURU NANAK ji

Bhai Gurdass Ji, Bhai buddah Ji..were the Eye wittnesses to the Construction of the Akal takaht..they were the First Voluntary Labour to join hands with Guru hargobind Ji...Bhai gurdass Ji writes; Chalee peerrehee SODHIANROOP DIKHAVAN vareh varee... the Lineage of SODHIS have begun..they change Roop in turn ( but Philosophy remains the same )

Guru Arjun Ji declares..
Hargobind RAKHIYOH Parmesar Aapnee kirpa Dhaar
Mitee biadh sarb sukh hoeyehhar gunn sada bichaar
Angeekaar keeo mere karteeh gur pooreh kee vadaiyee
ABCHAL NEEV DHAREE GUR NANAK Nit nit charreh swaeeh..Gujri Mh 5 Page 500.

This is the Eternal Foundations of Shabd Surt...that upholds the Sikh mansion of Gurmatt Philosophy.

When GURU TEG BAHADUR ( the name was originally TEG MALL...and was changed to TEG BAHADUR when this Sahibzadah of Guru hargobind Ji showed such Incredible Swordsmanship in the Battles of Guru Ji...and we can see clearly that GURU TEG BAHADUR JI is also carrying a SWORD and wielding it..)
So did Guru HAR RAI JI..who had a Company of over 2000 Expert Swordsmen and Horse Riders at His Command 24/7...Gurmatt is NOT Changing and neither is the GURU nanak Philosophy...

Guru Teg Bahadur Ji BANNED the use of Tobacco.....as it was fast gaining popularity among the indian populace.

In my Next installment i will go on to Guru Gobind Singh ji...

Gyani jarnail Singh

 

[kds1980]

gyani ji there is not even single sakhi in my suraj praksh before guru gobind singh ji in which
previous gurus made 5 kakars mandatory.there is not even a single shabad in guru granth sahib which says that 5 kakars are mandatory for sikhs.
if 5 kakars are so important then why our gurus didn't wrote a single shabad in which 5 kakars are mentioned.

how can we say that janeu is useless but kara is useful.guru nanak
dev ji refused to wear janeu because guru ji said that janue around body
is useless and janau should be around soul

sloku mÚ 1 ] (471-2)
salok mehlaa 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:

dieAw kpwh sMqoKu sUqu jqu gMFI squ vtu ] (471-2, Awsw, mÚ 1)
da-i-aa kapaah santokh soot jat gandhee sat vat.
Make compassion the cotton, contentment the thread, modesty the knot and truth the twist.

eyhu jnyaU jIA kw heI q pwfy Gqu ] (471-2, Awsw, mÚ 1)
ayhu janay-oo jee-a kaa ha-ee ta paaday ghat.
This is the sacred thread of the soul; if you have it, then go ahead and put it on me.

nw eyhu qutY nw mlu lgY nw eyhu jlY n jwie ] (471-3, Awsw, mÚ 1)
naa ayhu tutai naa mal lagai naa ayhu jalai na jaa-ay.
It does not break, it cannot be soiled by filth, it cannot be burnt, or lost.

DMnu su mwxs nwnkw jo gil cly pwie ] (471-3, Awsw, mÚ 1)
Dhan so maanas naankaa jo gal chalay paa-ay.
Blessed are those mortal beings, O Nanak, who wear such a thread around their necks.

caukiV muil AxwieAw bih caukY pwieAw ] (471-4, Awsw, mÚ 1)
cha-ukarh mul anaa-i-aa bahi cha-ukai paa-i-aa.
You buy the thread for a few shells, and seated in your enclosure, you put it on.


gyani ji i am unable to understand because both these things are contradictory.how can we say janau is useless but kara is useful

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Das wants to add that Miri Peeri concept is not there in Guru Granth Sahib ji ie as Two swrod of Sixth Master.

 

[S|kH]

Gurfateh

When we say that only Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave Guruship to Guru Granth Sahib Ji then you can not prove it by Guru Granth Sahib Ji as it is not mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib Ji themselve.

But Guruship of Guru Granth Sahib Ji was beofore Guru Gobind Singh Ji also in the form of Sabad Guru.

In Sarbloh Granth,Guruship of Guru Granth Sahib and Kachchh Kes Kirpan both are mentioned.

I must say single-handedly this is hands-down the best response I have ever seen.

People love to make the claim that Guru Gobind never wrote about the 5 K's in SGGS, or we don't need the 5 K's because its not mentioned in the SGGS.

But, yet thye always remain with the statement that "Guru Granth Sahib is the 11th Guru" and Guru Gobind told us to follow the book for all explanations.

How do they believe that statement? One must result to other maryadas and written statements.

NO where in the SGGS does it say "I am your leader now, Guru Gobind is no longer here."

Props to vijaydeep, I am definetly using this argument later on.

 

[Archived_member2]

Satsriakal to all and SIKH JI!

You wrote <NO where in the SGGS does it say "I am your leader now, Guru Gobind is no longer here.">

Who is preaching Sikhs since ages that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Guru, the Gurus have never said it though?

Why Sikhs need to search the true Guru out of the Guru's Baanee, i.e., Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Dasam Granth Ji?


Balbir Singh

 

[S|kH]

Satsriakal to all and SIKH JI!
You wrote <NO where in the SGGS does it say "I am your leader now, Guru Gobind is no longer here.">
Who is preaching Sikhs since ages that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Guru, the Gurus have never said it though?
Why Sikhs need to search the true Guru out of the Guru's Baanee, i.e., Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Dasam Granth Ji?
Balbir Singh

English is such a tough language..::

Do not take my phrase literally, I was using it as an example , because it the 5 kakkars are never spoken about in SGGS....I was correlating that to how the current leadership of Sikhs isn't stated in SGGS either.

 

[kds1980]

the very basic concept of sikhism is that bani is the guru
and it is clearly written in guru granth sahib

wxI gurU gurU hY bwxI ivic bwxI AMimRqu swry ] (982-10, nt, mÚ 4)
banee guroo guroo hai banee vich banee amrit saaray.
The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained.

guru bwxI khY syvku jnu mwnY prqiK gurU insqwry ]5] (982-11, nt, mÚ 4)
gur banee kahai sayvak jan maanai partakh guroo nistaaray. ||5||
If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person, emancipates him. ||5||

 

[Archived_member2]

Satsriakal to all and kds1980 Ji!

Please explore what 'Baanee' is?

I will be grateful.


Balbir Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Dear All...

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI fateh.

There are two "concepts" in play here. First concept "Spiritual concept" is written clearly in SGGS time and again... the second concept is the physical concept and CODIFIED by guru Gobind Singh ji in the form of the Panj kakaars.

The Use of the SWORD for JUSTICE is fundamental....a "weak" person CANNOT even defgedn himself let alone the one on whom injustice is being done..Listen to Bhagat kabir Ji.. SOORA so pechaniyaeha jo larre dene ke het PURJA PURJA KATT mareh...kabhon na chhaddeh khet.... and Guru gobind Singh ji.. .Shubh karmon te kaboohn na daroon. nischey kar aapnee JEET karoon..When all else fails.it is right to Draw the sword...

Listen to Guru naanak Ji...Rajeh sheehn mukaddam KUTTEH....Prem khelan ka chao..SIR dhar tali gale meree aoo...can a "coward" say this..can a coward cut his head and put it on his palm ??

Thus it is clear that the "Spiritual concepts" behind the 5 Kakaars are there enshrined in the Gurbani of the Bhagats, the Gurus in Guru Garanth ji...only in the way of Gurbani..we "NEED" different set of EYES to see GURBANI..and the 5 kakaars..BUt they are the SAME thing.

2. A lot of people always question the JANEAU and KIRPAN. They fail to see the fundamental DIFFERENCES between the two. First of all WHAT is the Janeau for ?? do you know that there are DIFFERENT Janeaus for the Different CASTES ?? Do we follow the same rules for Kirapan..is there a different Kirpan for different people ?? Is the Kirpan there to signify Caste. The JANEAU was COMPULSORY for ALL..no two ways about it... the Kirpan is VOLUNTARY (to Amrtidharees ONLY) Guru Nanak ji REFUSED to wear the JANEAU. Did Guru Hargobind Ji, Guru Har rai Ji, Guru Teg bahdur Ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji REFUSE to CARRY and USE the KIRPAN ?? Did any Guru ji write Gurbani questiong why kirpan ? and describe a "kirpan" of another type as there is Gurbani about the "real janeau" ( asa dee vaar)

Jarnail Singh Gyani

 

[Archived_member2]

Satsriakal to all!

Guru's Baanee says igAwnu jnyaU iDAwnu kuspwqI ]
"gi-aan janay-oo Dhi-aan kuspaatee." SGGS Ang 355-2
Gian is Janay-oo. Dhi-aan is kuspaatee.

Can somebody please explain it to me? Why people discard Janay-oo but they wish to possess Gian, when Gian is Janay-oo?

Guru Nanak Ji asked Pandits to provide the true Janay-oo if they can? But he has nowhere rejected or discarded Janay-oo, in my view.

I will be thankful if someone provides me a reference where Guru Nanak Ji has discarded Janay-oo.

You may ask me to do the search myself. But I am unable to read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji with awareness of rejecting Janay-oo in the background.

Thanks.


Balbir Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

IF someone offers you "rice" and you reply..
Give me Roti.... that goes without saying that you DONT WANT rice

Guru nanak ji Sahib in Asa Di Vaar asks the Pandit to "give me the TRUE Janeau....and then goes on to DESCRIBE what such a Janeau should be.... Daya kapah....

Obviously the PANDIT DOESNT have such a TRUTH Janeau.... so can anyone just assume that since GURU NANAK JI didnt say it straight out I REJECT YOUR FALSE JANEAU....and DEMANDED the TRUTH JANEAU..that Guru Ji would then go ahead and wear the False one made of Thread which He has already REJECTED because it.....GETS DIRTY, GETS BROKEN..and has to be worn again..etc etc

But GURU NANAK DOES HAVE such a True Janeau and it is...TRUTHFUL LIVING....and He gave this to US Sikhs


Looking for everything in a "YES - NO format is a bit too much naiveity. Refer to Bhai Lalo sakhi. Guru Ji ATE bhai lalao's Roti...and this obviously means thet He DID NOT eat Malik Bhago's roti..but there is no direct NO quote anywhere saying I DONT WANT TO EAT your roti malik ji.

Jarnail Singh Gyani

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Satsriakal to all and SIKH JI!

You wrote <NO where in the SGGS does it say "I am your leader now, Guru Gobind is no longer here.">

Who is preaching Sikhs since ages that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Guru, the Gurus have never said it though?

Why Sikhs need to search the true Guru out of the Guru's Baanee, i.e., Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Dasam Granth Ji?


Balbir Singh

Gurfateh

Well Dasham Granth is compilation of more then one book.
In past there was contrversay between Singhs weather to let some books by Tenth Master be compiled into one or let them remain separate.
Bhai Sukha Singh made them as one.

At that time also there was no doubt that Guru wrote these verses.

But there was another Book(Sarbloh Granth) still kept separate as it was writtan in time between Gurus leaving Anandpur Sahib and till Hajur Sahib's visit and sachkhand going.

There Guru Granth Sahib Ji are mentioned as Guru.Other forms are Guru Panth and Ten Gurus and all need to be one with Gurubar Akal.

This book was never lost.origeonal version is also in Hajur Sahib.


So Tenth Master did agree that Guru Granth Sahib are Guru and hence your answers.

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Veer Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji!

The Guru sings "sagal samagree tumrai sutir Dhaaree." SGGS Ang 268
All your Totality wears thread.

Don't we reject God unconsciously by rejecting thread? Were the Gurus ever wanted us to spend precious human life discarding threads?

You also wrote "But GURU NANAK DOES HAVE such a True Janeau and it is...TRUTHFUL LIVING....and He gave this to US Sikhs"

Are you sure that God gave it to US Sikhs alone? And what is about Malaysian Sikhs?

In my view, the Gurus suggested us how to get this true Janay-oo. I don't think it is available in a shop along the streets of the city Amritsar.

It is surprising to observe the present values.

Sikhs are trained to reject many things which the Gurus never asked for.

At the same time Sikhs are disciplined to adopt many rituals which the Gurus never suggested.

**************

Veer Vijaydeep Singh Ji!

I have heard Some historians are working hard to discover old books to prove when and where their ignorance started.

**************

Those, who are blessed with the true Naam Simran, alone are awarded with God's Truth.


Balbir Singh

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

Waheguru ji ka kahlasa waheguru ji ki fateh.

Veer Ji balbir Singh Ji,

Imho you are taking the "sutr" to mean a "physical Thread".. i think Here the Panktee means MARYADA...HUKM..meaning thet EVERYTHING is Following Waheguru's HUKM or Maryada and NONE is above that or out of LINE ( Mala beads strung on a thread ALWAYS remain IN LINE..unless they break free of the thread.... the Central "thread" holding this entire brahmand together is HUJM..as Guur Ji has already declared in the beginning..Hukme andar sabh ko..bahar hukm na koi....so THISis MARYADA - HUKM about which no one has any alternative except to Follow Hukme andar SABH KO..BAHAR HUKM NA KOI..No one is OUTSIDE this Hukm.

Jarnail singh gyani

 

[Archived_member2]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Gurdev often sings about thread (sootar).

All are beads and strung in the necklace (Maalaa) of the same thread.

Why do some people try to throw few beads out of this Maalaa? Are they not trying to destroy the Maalaa unconsciously?

It is wonder how we get diverted from the thread and spend the precious life in sorting out beads.

Strange is to feel concerned with the thread worn by others but forgetting the thread we are strung on.

Do we get a moment to spend in awareness also?

Balbir Singh

 

[agape]

Hukme andar sabh ko..bahar hukm na koi.

sat shri akaal
humbly apologies. could someone please clarify the above stanza.

i was under the impression that this stanza was about following the divine light and hukm we all have inside, instead of looking outside for external symbols or guidance

hukm is inside us all. no hukum outside of us.
it is a call to develop own relationship with god rather than being a sheep to autority. as we clear our minds of trival thoughts and vibrations the truth reveals itself to us. the truth is all there - just different ways of getting there.


what gyani says here that no one is outside hukm is clearly explianed in the first line of the mool manter 'ek onkar satnaam'

please clarify
begging forgivesness for any misinteruptation

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

In fact these verse did attract das for Gurmat.

Akal Tells First Master.

In Control of God everthing exist and nothing outside the control,who so ever understands the control gets out of ego(as our deeds are not ours but of God and deeds of all also).

 

[Lionchild]

:hmm:

A little confused...
So should I take them off sometimes, or try to weat them at "all times"

I was wondering, if the mini kirpans ppl weat on around their necks is good enough.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Das discuuused this issue in Gurudwara Sahib on last Sunday.Not to be placed with us like ritual and sometime to respect law and securty of others we can temporaryly remove Kirpan.

Kes or uncut hairs are the main thing and other four without Kes are useless/unpardanable(Tenth Master).

 

[Lionchild]

Gurfateh

Das discuuused this issue in Gurudwara Sahib on last Sunday.Not to be placed with us like ritual and sometime to respect law and securty of others we can temporaryly remove Kirpan.

Kes or uncut hairs are the main thing and other four without Kes are useless/unpardanable(Tenth Master).

Well thanks for reply's.. i'm sure this will help everyone on the path of enlightment.