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Dr Karminder Singh of Sikhi Vichar Forum and Gurcharan Singh Brar of Singh Sabha Canada discuss the origins of Ragmala
Sat Sri Akaal,

Rags are expression that repeatedly erupts within to make sound of Shabad, by virtue of acquired learning.

There was reference of Bhairo Rag, and contest was Shabad Marey means there are few sounds which die, by the virtue of learning. SIKHI.

FOR EG. A LEARNED Sikh Gursikh, will never make utterance of caste ie Jatt, bhappa, baniya. ramgariya etc. These shabad will die and will not appear to make Sound in Gursikh.

Also the sounds and other vices disappear as a result of purification of thought.

This happens after a practice of Gurusbani and after a long way practice, which ends the old operative and one comes with new narrative of life.

This is the concept from Shabad Marey. Death of Sounds.

Intellactual sikhs who may be old and well versed with text and verses of GurusBani but have not shed the rags ie Shabads of casteism, racism, language, colour etc are not yet evolved fully.

Even at end nodes, the SIKHs will have Duality, confusion and Contradiction of Gurus Bani, though well versed in text and reading.

Obedience and Faith are prime virtues, which Gursikh attains ONE and is on the way for Khalsa.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
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Sat Sri Akaal,

Limit is Anand Bani ie awareness of right and wrong as regular curriculum ie Nitnem, but the transformative when pruning, uprooting and burning of weed thoughts were left and not brought as curriculum of Nitnem. And it has results of reerruption.

The weeds have rerrupted,
Duality hence.Lack of faith in our own system.
Intellactual arrogance hence lack of obedience and followance of belief system.

Casteism, hierarchy, intolerance, status of service, as brahmin, vaish, shudar etc are in practice ie few practicing are giving huge market display and giving a cover of wrong doings at grass root display. Killing of week and humble was way to lead.

Terror groups wanted to implant Sikhism, by force, killing of innocent people seeking scientific education in and providing humble service in Punjab.,
Not by the way of Spiritual Education and practice along with scientific education, but false practice and ritualistic implantation, and yet they got glory in SIKH society, leading to downfall of institutional values. Service of food, is another false display of SIKHs, as the TRUE service is when it is asked for, but by gaining wealth, we want to serve who do not need, and waste, how fruitful is that service.

Service has criteria of need. Need of survival. Are we serving those, who are on verge of survival.
Once one has to serve need of others, there is a sacrifice. Than only it is SERVICE. It is there blessing to Seekers come from Nature.

SIKHs want leadership, and five basics rules.

Five Loved Ones
Daya Dharam Humility Discipline and Faith

The five virtues which brings the leadership, are made to walk bare foot on roads, for false display of ritual.
Yet with beard and turban we are seekers.
We are in bliss, while walking with barefoot, on road, not having the bearance of leadership virtues, but fake ritual display.
But when we will learn, have faith in our own belief system, and come to conclusion of discussions, to.lead and follow.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
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Sat Sri Akaal,

Learned Society Gursikhs

Will work on spiritual training before dusk and after dawn.
There will be no fake bhai, raagis, all will serve
Serving brothers and sisters. Who attain Dharam Daya, Humility, Discipline and Faith. They will be serving professionals.
They don't need free langar.
Skills Development Langars of
House Keeping aware of waste recycling at the source.
Cookery aware of health and nutrition
Doctors and Nurses of caliber to serve any natural and professional disabilities.
Military and Police professional of high merit will govern and implement policies
Researchers will know there faith and belief system and value research to serve living and life. And will be able to resolve debate and conclude during early life to benefit research.
Offering of basic education, medical services, will be available.
Every one who can will earn food for self and who can not will get food.

Outside world is charming and people are NRI because of systems. There is inner connect.

Seekers have to implement.

Beard and Turban values is honour living.
an intrinsic value of HUMAN.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Iam swarn singh bains. i translated sggs in english. in this topic i am putting my view about ragmala and i want dr karmindr singh and dr gurcharn singh to see
Ragmala is rosary or ragas. It is a poetry. what comes to the mind of a poet writes; not necessarily the total count of ragas in sggs. if he or she does not write at that time; it disappears. The so called scholars; if they are poets their understanding is different than the phd type scholars. To understand sggs requires mental thinking not the brain thinking such as all sikh critics are brainers. To me ragmala is gurbani and is a master piece. here is my version
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ ॥ Rosary of tunes;

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

God is one. He is realized by guru’s grace.

ਰਾਗ ਏਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਪੰਚ ਬਰੰਗਨ ॥ਸੰਗਿ ਅਲਾਪਹਿ ਆਠਉ ਨੰਦਨ ॥

There is one tune (God). The whole world sings His

praise in classical Tunes in the group of five;

ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਰਾਗ ਭੈਰਉ ਵੈ ਕਰਹੀ ॥

The first major tune is Raag Bhairao (Devotee’s tune).

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ਪੰਚ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਉਚਰਹੀ ॥

It sings the praise of God in a group of five including other sub tunes.

ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਭੈਰਵੀ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੀ ॥

First sub tune in the group is Bhairavee, and Bilaavalee;

ਪੁੰਨਿਆਕੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਬੰਗਲੀ ॥

Your praises are sung in melodious tunes.

ਪੁਨਿ ਅਸਲੇਖੀ ਕੀ ਭਈ ਬਾਰੀ ॥

Then comes the turn of other truthful tunes;

ਏ ਭੈਰਉ ਕੀ ਪਾਚਉ ਨਾਰੀ ॥

These are the five tunes of major tune Bhairao.

ਪੰਚਮ ਹਰਖ ਦਿਸਾਖ ਸੁਨਾਵਹਿ ॥

All five sing Your praises joyfully in godly tunes.

ਬੰਗਾਲਮ ਮਧੁ ਮਾਧਵ ਗਾਵਹਿ ॥੧॥

Singing your praises in beautiful tunes full of melody; ||1||

ਲਲਤ ਬਿਲਾਵਲ ਗਾਵਹੀ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ

Tunes Lalat and Bilaaval - each have their own melody.

ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਭੈਰਵ ਕੇ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗਾਇਨ ਪਾਤ੍ਰ ॥੧॥

Everyone is the son of Bhairav (God). Sings your praise in devotion! ||1||

ਦੁਤੀਆ ਮਾਲਕਉਸਕ ਆਲਾਪਹਿ ॥ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਪਾਚਉ ਥਾਪਹਿ ॥

The second major tune is Maalakausak (Acquired knowledge)

also sing Your praises in the group of five tunes!

ਗੋਂਡਕਰੀ ਅਰੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ ॥ਗੰਧਾਰੀ ਸੀਹੁਤੀ ਉਚਾਰੀ ॥

Gondakaree and Dev Gandhaaree sing Your praises in loud voice.

ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਏ ਪਾਚਉ ਗਾਈ ॥ਮਾਲ ਰਾਗ ਕਉਸਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਲਾਈ ॥

Including Dhanaasaree and maal raag in the group of Maalakausak;

ਮਾਰੂ ਮਸਤਅੰਗ ਮੇਵਾਰਾ ॥ਪ੍ਰਬਲਚੰਡ ਕਉਸਕ ਉਭਾਰਾ ॥

Maaroo raag is the devotional tune of Maiwar sung emotionally in the group.

ਖਉਖਟ ਅਉ ਭਉਰਾਨਦ ਗਾਏ ॥ਅਸਟ ਮਾਲਕਉਸਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਲਾਏ ॥੧॥

The devotional singers sing their best. Every

one is the son of Maalakausak (God). ||1||

ਪੁਨਿ ਆਇਅਉ ਹਿੰਡੋਲੁ ਪੰਚ ਨਾਰਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਅਸਟ ਸੁਤ ॥

Then comes Hindol (joy); all sing Your praises in the group of five.

ਉਠਹਿ ਤਾਨ ਕਲੋਲ ਗਾਇਨ ਤਾਰ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ ॥੧॥

They sing in harmony to the best of their ability. ||1||

ਤੇਲੰਗੀ ਦੇਵਕਰੀ ਆਈ ॥ਬਸੰਤੀ ਸੰਦੂਰ ਸੁਹਾਈ ॥

Then, comes Taylangee the music of gods; it is sung

with the best attire including saffron on forehead.

ਸਰਸ ਅਹੀਰੀ ਲੈ ਭਾਰਜਾ ॥ਸੰਗਿ ਲਾਈ ਪਾਂਚਉ ਆਰਜਾ ॥

The universe blooms and becomes green O brother;

here also Your praises are sung in the group of five tunes.

ਸੁਰਮਾਨੰਦ ਭਾਸਕਰ ਆਏ ॥ਚੰਦ੍ਬਿੰਬ ਮੰਗਲਨ ਸੁਹਾਏ ॥

The singers come well dressed wearing mascara, scent of sandalwood on the forehead and wearing the sacred thread.

ਸਰਸਬਾਨ ਅਉ ਆਹਿ ਬਿਨੋਦਾ ॥ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਰਸ ਬਸੰਤ ਕਮੋਦਾ ॥

The whole atmosphere fills with joy, they sing Your

praises in tune basant with musical instruments.

ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਮੈ ਕਹੇ ਸਵਾਰੀ ॥

God pervades in every one.

ਪੁਨਿ ਆਈ ਦੀਪਕ ਕੀ ਬਾਰੀ ॥੧॥

Then comes the turn of Deepak (enlightenment); ||1||

ਕਛੇਲੀ ਪਟਮੰਜਰੀ ਟੋਡੀ ਕਹੀ ਅਲਾਪਿ ॥

Todee raag is sung with lot of zest in the group of five tunes.

ਕਾਮੋਦੀ ਅਉ ਗੂਜਰੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਦੀਪਕ ਕੇ ਥਾਪਿ ॥੧॥

Goojree raag is sung with musical instruments in the group major raag Deepak. ||1||

ਕਾਲੰਕਾ ਕੁੰਤਲ ਅਉ ਰਾਮਾ ॥ਕਮਲਕੁਸਮ ਚੰਪਕ ਕੇ ਨਾਮਾ ॥

The ugly the beautiful and the devotees of God;

all are the children of the same flower The God.

ਗਉਰਾ ਅਉ ਕਾਨਰਾ ਕਲਿਆਨਾ ॥ ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਦੀਪਕ ਕੇ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੧॥

Raag Gauraa, Kaanaraa and Kaylaanaa; all are the son of Deepak (God). ||1||

ਸਭ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗ ਵੈ ਗਾਵਹ ॥ਪਾਂਚਉ ਸੰਗਿ ਬਰੰਗਨ ਲਾਵਹਿ ॥

All join and sing Siree Raag (tune to honor God) that also is sung in the group of five.

ਬੈਰਾਰੀ ਕਰਨਾਟੀ ਧਰੀ ॥ਗਵਰੀ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਆਸਾਵਰੀ

Bairaaree is the tune of Karnaatka. The Aasaavaree is sung in a simple tune.

ਤਿਹ ਪਾਛੈ ਸਿੰਧਵੀ ਅਲਾਪੀ ॥ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗ ਸਿਉ ਪਾਂਚਉ ਥਾਪੀ ॥੧॥

Then follows raag Sindhavee; It is also part of the group of five in tune siree Raag. ||1||

ਸਾਲੂ ਸਾਰਗ ਸਾਗਰਾ ਅਉਰ ਗੋਂਡ ਗੰਭੀਰ ॥

Deep tune Raag Saarag is sung in deep devotion and raag Gond is serious.

ਅਸਟ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਸ੍ਰੀਰਾਗ ਕੇ ਗੁੰਡ ਕੁੰਭ ਹਮੀਰ ॥੧॥

Everyone is the son of Siree Raag (God) whether

named Gund, Kumb or Hameer. ||1||

ਖਸਟਮ ਮੇਘ ਰਾਗ ਵੈ ਗਾਵਹਿ ॥ਪਾਂਚਉ ਸੰਗਿ ਬਰੰਗਨ ਲਾਵਹਿ ॥

The sixth major tune is Maygh Raag. (tune of guru`s grace)Also sung in the group of five tunes!

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਗੋਂਡ ਮਲਾਰੀ ਧੁਨੀ ॥

The tunes Sorath, Gond, and Malaar are part of Mayagh raag.

ਪੁਨਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਆਸਾ ਗੁਨ ਗੁਨੀ ॥

Including Aasaa that is sung in slow rytham in the head;

ਊਚੈ ਸੁਰਿ ਸੂਹਉ ਪੁਨਿ ਕੀਨ ॥ ਮੇਘ ਰਾਗ ਸਿਉ ਪਾਚਉ ਚੀਨੀ ॥੧॥

All sung in devotion loudly and form the

part of the group of five the Maygh Raag. ||1||

ਬੈਰਾਧਰ ਗਜਧਰ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ ॥ਜਬਲੀਧਰ ਨਟ ਅਉ ਜਲਧਾਰਾ ॥

The salty land, jungles, the religious shrines, the

land of warriors, land of magicians and land of rivers;

ਪੁਨਿ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸੰਕਰ ਅਉ ਸਿਆਮਾ ॥

Everywhere the devotees and the prophets sing Your praises.

ਮੇਘ ਰਾਗ ਪੁਤ੍ਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੧॥

Those are the names of the sons of God the Maygh Raag.

ਖਸਟ ਰਾਗ ਉਨਿ ਗਾਏ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਤੀਸ ॥

Six major tunes have been sung including the sub tunes

totaling thirty in Your admiration. One more added later.

ਸਭੈ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਰਾਗੰਨ ਕੇ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਦਸ ਬੀਸ ॥੧॥੧॥

All are the sons of the Creator of music (God)

whether eighteen, ten or twenty. ||1||1||

the last stanza tells the poetical version eighten, ten or twenty is used to complement the previous line and not 48.
Madhav nal kaam kandla by aalam is copied version. the year 1584 mentioned is wrong. In madhav nal kam kandla there is no mention of any ragas in the book exept when he writes ragmala. if there is no mention of any rag before then why in ragmala. my ph 905 627 0625. i want dr gurcharan singh or dr karmindr singh to call me and discus . email {Private Info Removed}
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to my surprise there is no call from above sikh scholars. by the way. there were only two gurus who had the right and who wrote the sggs. no one else had the right to enter anything else. that means this ragmala is entered in sggs by one or both of them. if we think it is not entered by any one of them then who had the right to do so. find out. it was not alam.alam copied it and put in madhavnal kaam kandla because. there is no mention of any ragas in his book except when madhav nal comes to meet kam kandla he says the rag mala. now if alam's ragmala makes sense in his book without any ragas then why not guru arjan dev or guru gobind singhs ragmala with some ragas in the ragmala from sggs. Alam's year mentioned is wrong. i am not a scholar not an educated man like many sikh scholars like ganga singh, ganda singh jhanda singh that is what the sikh scholars are.i want to hear from u sir and read my explanation in the translation before contacting me. thanks

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