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<blockquote data-quote="pk70" data-source="post: 78893" data-attributes="member: 5889"><p><strong>Re: Sikh Names</strong></p><p></p><p>Quote“Seriously. Let's look carefully at this shabad veer ji. The reason I don't post big long shabad's is because I'm posting big long articles. So I plainly post the page number so anyone can go and read the Gurbani which I think relates to the subject. If there are for example 21 tuks which are talking about japping Naam with each and every breath, I don't see why reading the entire pauri is needed to shed better light on something obvious. In the same manner, there are many sanskrit yogic terminology used in Gurbani. When I point these out, you disagree with the meanings, or the translation, or the interpretations. That's okay, but reading the entire pauri won't diminish the presence of the yogic references. I will try to offer what clarification I can and answer objections as I can. But fundamentally, I'm not here to change anyone's opinion, only to share my own. The fun thing is, maybe some people will look at things in a different way.</p><p><strong>Let’s talk about first terms only. Guru ji used terms related with Hinduism, Yogis, Islam, Sanyaasi etc. Those were prevailing religions or sects at his time. He had to talk and repudiate their philosophy because main purpose of life was Naam Simran and eliminating the width between HIM and us, occurs due to Maya influences (Japji). Only yogi term was not selected, so this is baseless point to say that there is presence of Yoga references in Gurbani. Guru ji takes one by one and gives his meaning to those words. Let me put it different way if you could understand my point better way. Guru ji takes on caste system and we all know that Caste System is strongly condemned in GGS Ji Look on.P 469 Mehla 2, Guru ji says Brahmin discusses Vedas, Khatris do acts of bravery, Shudras dharm is to serve others ( all Hindu religion belief). In the last vaak Guru ji says that actually every one’s dharm is to praise HIM.</strong> <strong>Should we conclude here that Guru ji believes in caste system because he specially writes about different castes? Closed mind will do it. Here if any one reads it in totality of Gurbani, will understand that these words are used to advocate </strong><strong>Nam</strong><strong> Simran and, caste system is not accepted at all. That is the case with about Yoga term. </strong></p><p><strong></strong>You write:<em><span style="color: darkred"> "You are free to take the meaning of Yoga as you wish; however, Guru Nanak’s followers understand that they do not need it."</span></em></p><p>Are you implying I'm not a follower of Guru Nanak? That's a big conclusion.</p><p> <strong>It was not personal; if you think it was addressed to you, forgive me because I respect all who believe in Guru Nanak equally</strong>.</p><p></p><p><em><span style="color: darkred">"There is no such pouris, read carefully; it is not referred in advocacy of Yoga practice at all. Even the one that starts with" Asankh..." quoted by you."</span></em></p><p></p><p>Veer ji do you realize the major Jathas such as Damdami Taksal, Akhand Kirtani Jatha, Nirmala, Nihang, actually interpret the Gurbani in the way I'm interpreting it now?</p><p> <strong>To be honest with you Bhainji, I do not believe in any of the above, I have very close friends who are like family members of Sant Bhindran wale group, I strongly disagree with them on Gurbani interpretation and they accept it at least in my presence. So these are not exemplary groups to understand Gurbani. Any group in the name of religion is not appreciated by 4 Mehla when he says to the fact that people who go for groups but the one who tunes to HIM doesn’t need any group(Rag Asa Mehla 4 Ghar 2. 266).</strong></p><p> There's nothing new or radical in what I'm saying or pointing out. Just, it isn't well known is all. What I'm saying has nothing to do with Yogi Bhajan for example. </p><p> <strong>Yogi Bhajan’s name came because you brought it in.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p></p><p>Where did I say anything about yoga of Yogi Bhajan? I don't know any yoga from Yogi Bhajan. I took amrit from Panj Piare from AKJ. I'm not sayihng anything about yoga of Yogi Bhajan. Why are you jumping to this extreme conclusion? Is that the only kind of yoga you know about? Do you think every form of yoga in the world automatically relates to Yogi Bhajan? I believe Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji was a brahmgyani.</p><p> <strong>As I said above, Yogi</strong> <strong>Bhajan’s name came because brought it, please reread your posts you will find it. I do not believe in AKJ, Panj pyare giving Naam secretly, I consider that is big discrimination and is almost anti Guru Nanak. I do not believe Bhai Randhir Singh as Brahmgyani. There is lot of Brahmgysanis promoted in some circles. My source is no body but Guru Granth Sahib, Period. That source comes directly to us from our glorious Fifth Nanak.</strong></p><p> </p><p> And while I may respect individual insights Yogi Bhajan had, I don't even consider him the same way. A lot more people than Yogi Bhajan talk about these things. If you even researched old school yoga, these terms and yogic descriptions found in Gurbani would be immediately clear. Now, I'm not saying anyone has to go and study yoga. But even a casual glance and it becomes obvious.</p><p> <u>Gurbani is based on a yogic tradition.</u></p><p> <strong>That is very untrue statement.</strong></p><p> Gursikhi is a yogic path. Can you explain what is meant by:</p><p> <strong>You bet I will</strong></p><p> <span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੂੰ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੁਰ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਾਜ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੋਗੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੧॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">thoon gur prasaadh kar raaj jog ||1||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">By Guru's Grace, practice Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||1||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">~SGGS Ji p. 211</span></p><p> </p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">Respected Bhain ji, Raj jog means “grehsti and Faqiri” all in one. Gur parsaad means with Guru’s blessings. Guru enables the family man to live like a Faqir(totally indifferent to all Maya influences). This very context, Guru Nanak is praised as “Raja Yogi” not raja yogi as your group promotes. Words speak for themselves.</span></strong></p><p> <span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੁਰ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੈ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਚਨਿ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੀਨੋ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਾਜੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੋਗੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"> </span></p><p><span style="color: darkgreen">gur kai bachan keeno raaj jog ||</span></p><p><span style="color: darkgreen">Through the Guru's Word, I practice Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success.</span></p><p><span style="color: darkgreen">~SGGS Ji p. 239</span></p><p> </p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">Again, translator fails to convey Guru Message; it’s not Yoga meditation, its family and faqiri together. The meaning should be,” with the teachings of Guru I have enjoyed Faqiri being family man.” Actually Shabad starts with Guru’s praise who helps to realize Him. Yogi nostalgia distorted the meaning just to promote it. Remember, during Guru Sahiban, pirthye, and others opened shops in the name of Guru Nanak and tried to sell this kind of stuff, true Sikhs remained tuned to Guru Sahiban.. About reference on P 923, I made it clear it has nothing to do with “your Yoga”. Its about enjoying Faqiri being family man. Nothing goes beyond that.</span></strong></p><p> <span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਾਜੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੋਗੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤਖਤੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦੀਅਨੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੁਰ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਾਮਦਾਸ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"> </span></p><p><span style="color: darkgreen">raaj jog thakhath dheean gur raamadhaas ||</span></p><p><span style="color: darkgreen">Guru Raam Daas was blessed with the Throne of Raja Yoga.</span></p><p><span style="color: darkgreen">~SGGS Ji p. 1399</span></p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">Same point of view, translator mislead you to Yoga thing, it is not about Yoga.</span></strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: black"></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: black"></span></strong>What I keep trying to explain is Guruji teaches His own yoga, we don't have to learn from someone else. We have a Living Satguru who is teaching us. But you can't wrench the Gurbani, the supportive vaaran, the Gurmat tradition of several Jathas out of context to deny the reality of Sikhism as a form of yogic practice. It's just not believable all this talk about yoga in Gurbani doesn't really mean yoga! What does it mean then? Why is it in Gurbani? </p><p> <strong> Above I answered it how Guru ji gives meaning to the prevailed words (used to influence people to milk money)</strong></p><p> <span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਚਾਰੇ</span></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬੇਦ</span></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਥਹਿ</span></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਕਾਰੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: darkred"> </span></p><p><span style="color: darkred">chaarae baedh kathhehi aakaar ||</span></p><p><span style="color: darkred">The four Vedas speak only of the visible forms.</span></p><p><span style="color: darkred"></span></p><p><span style="color: darkred"></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੀਨਿ</span></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਵਸਥਾ</span></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਹਹਿ</span></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਵਖਿਆਨੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: darkred"> </span></p><p><span style="color: darkred">theen avasathhaa kehehi vakhiaan ||</span></p><p><span style="color: darkred">They describe and explain the three states of mind, </span></p><p><span style="color: darkred"></span></p><p><span style="color: darkred"></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ</span></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਤਿਗੁਰ</span></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੇ</span></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਾਨੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: darkred"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੧॥</span></span><span style="color: darkred"> </span></p><p><span style="color: darkred">thureeaavasathhaa sathigur thae har jaan ||1||</span></p><p><span style="color: darkred">but the fourth state, union with the Lord, is known only through the True Guru. ||1|</span></p><p><span style="color: darkred">~SGGS Ji p. 154</span></p><p> It means the Vedas can take you far but they can't take you all the way. This is a radically different meaning than to say the Vedas are meaningless.</p><p> <strong>First of all Bhain ji, Sikhs do not need to study Vedas, why would you waste time on the scripture that doesn’t take to the final goal? Gurbani does and stick to it. Why craving for Vedas goes on? In above quote it is again clear all discussion of Vedas will take us to the middle. So, follow GURBANI ONLY WITHOUT DISTORTION. </strong></p><p> <span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੋਗ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਬਦੰ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗਿਆਨ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਬਦੰ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬੇਦ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਬਦੰ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣਹ</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: darkgreen"> </span></p><p><span style="color: darkgreen">jog sabadhan giaan sabadhan baedh sabadhan braahamaneh ||</span></p><p><span style="color: darkgreen">The Way of Yoga is the Way of spiritual wisdom; the Vedas are the Way of the Brahmins.</span></p><p><span style="color: darkgreen">~SGGS Ji p. 469</span></p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">Again distortion, I tell you how and why? Guru ji starts with Yog dharm. Read the whole Shabad. It states “Yoga dharm is about knowledge to discuss about HIM, Brahamin’s dharm is to discuss Vedas. Khatri dharm is to do bravery acts, and low class category’s Dharm is to serve others.” After saying that, Guru ji expresses his own views, “all’s Dharm is to do His Naam Simran. Who understands this, I am his servant and he/she is like God.”</span></strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">From what part of brain attaches this Shabad to Yoga (or caste system?)</span></strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">Here is complete Sloke by Mehla 2 p-469</span></strong></p><p> <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'GurbaniWebThick'">mÚ 2 ] jog sbdM igAwn sbdM byd sbdM bRwhmxh ] KqRI sbdM sUr sbdM sUdR sbdM prwik®qh ] srb sbdM eyk sbdM jy ko jwxY Byau ] nwnku qw kw dwsu hY soeI inrMjn dyau ]2] {pMnw 469}</span></span></p><p> <span style="color: purple">Vaar 1 Pauri 14 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji</span></p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">In this Vaar Bhai Sahib talks what others who say about it but in the end, reread what is said. It is Naam Simran that brings together Faqiri being in family life. In another line, Bhia sahib hints about yoga limitations. Again, it is used to support this failed practice.</span></strong></p><p> <span style="color: black"></span></p><p><span style="color: black"></span>Okay, let's go over the shabad you posted which you think is so objectionable to yoga in general, since yoga specifically means a method of union with God, and is thus a spiritual practice by definition.</p><p><span style="color: navy"> </span></p><p><span style="color: navy">~SGGS Ji p. 730</span></p><p> The Gurbani is clearly saying Real spiritual yoga is not the outer appearance of wearing patched coat, earrings, shaven head, smearing with ashes, etc. Real yoga is remaining unblemished in the filth of the world.</p><p> <strong>Very good understanding</strong></p><p> Real yoga is not mere words or pretense but attaining the single eye (sixth level third eye Ajna chakra which enables intuitive spiritual perception of samaadhi, oneness of the God pervading all beings which the ordinary mind cannot grasp because of duality.)</p><p> <strong>This is made up thing; there is no word in the shabad about it. Yoga smells every where unnecessarily to Yoga promoters. It appears like programming to get the goal. Why crystal clear views are not clear? Where is sixth eye mentioned above? Guru ji has no regard for this imagination. He goes on telling you, and instead of listening to him, you are more tuned to AJC programming.</strong></p><p> </p><p> <span style="color: blue">There is a scripture in Christian Bible which states: "“If thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.” - Matthew 6:22</span></p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">I am not interested in it, out of context, we are discussing Yoga in Gurbani as per Guru says.</span></strong></p><p> This scripture is often cited by yogis (I learned it from studying Paramahansa Yogananda decades ago when I was a child) to illustrate that kateb also teaches a form of yoga. This is really old and basic stuff. No one can have undivided attentiveness, single-mindedness, or a single eye in a natural unenlightened state.</p><p> <strong>I am glad I didn’t go through it, I noticed changes within me without all stuff you are talking about, by just trying Gurbani as motto of life. Battle needs to win within, rest physical exercises are of no use. In GGS ji there is example of Dhanna Bhagat who got HIS blessings with devotion not with Yoga exercises, why any one even need it for union with HIM. For physical fitness it is alright. All comes down to how to make money otherwise. Naam Simran has nothing to do with all that.</strong></p><p> <span style="color: purple">"Eaek dhrisatt kar samasar jaanai jogee keheeai soee."</span></p><p> <span style="color: purple">“sum kar jane” taking good or bad as His blessings/ hukm, no more than that. Second why should I smell Yoga</span></p><p> Nothing in this entire shabad says there is no yoga, or that no one needs yoga as you are saying. The shabad clearly illustrates what is needed for there to be real yoga (union with God) and that is basically sincere practice, not just words or playing the role.</p><p> </p><p> <strong>Shabad states that Yoga, the prevailed one is not real one, if it were, Guru ji wouldn’t picked on it. So then what is real? It is disclosed in the Shabad, then why to think it is not against Yoga? Why do you see every where Yoga. You can say “ </strong><strong>Union</strong><strong> with God” is Yoga, keep saying, I am saying that it is merging with Him. So what is the problem? You commented on Guru Shabad just to distort it” brought sixth eye” from your Yoga shelf though it is not even mention here.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong>Now there are many hidden (I guess if unfamiliar with yogic terminology) yogic references in this shabad</p><p> <strong>That is called smelling Yoga.</strong></p><p> . I will try and point them out with explanation to the best of my ability.</p><p> <span style="color: indigo">1. </span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਏਕ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਮਸਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਾਣੈ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੋਗੀ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਹੀਐ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੋਈ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੧॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਹਾਉ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">eaek dhrisatt kar samasar jaanai jogee keheeai soee ||1|| rehaao ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">One who looks upon all with a single eye, and knows them to be one and the same - he alone is known as a Yogi. ||1||Pause||</span></p><p> Refers to a transcendent state of consciousness where you are perceiving the Oneness without duality. This is attained by opening the 6th chakra and stimulating the pineal gland to obtain a whole new brain chemistry and expand into opening dasam duar at level of 7th Sahasrara crown chakra, unfolding the thousand petalled lotus of God-consciousness.</p><p> <strong>NO, not at all. Contrary to it is about killing ego completely, it is also supported by other Guru Bhagatas Vaak” like” if I am, HE is not, when He is, I am not</strong>” <strong>AJC is just dreaming about these words.</strong></p><p> <span style="color: indigo">2. </span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅੰਜਨ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਾਹਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਹੀਐ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੋਗ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੁਗਤਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਇਵ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਾਈਐ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੨॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">anjan maahi niranjan reheeai jog jugath eiv paaeeai ||2||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||2|| </span></p><p> Refers to sincerity and inner purification, not outer purification practices as what will lead to true yoga (union with God). This relates to intention, that a real jogee isn't acting holy to be appreciated as a saddhu by people but is serious about doing the spiritual work to cleanse the impurities and blemishes that obstruct spiritual development.</p><p> <strong>Bhain ji, this Guru Vaak qualifies previous Guru Vaak, first ego to go, then be indifferent to Maya. Guru Nanak enjoyed this thing by living in this super state, also known as “Raj Yoga” unlike yogis, Guru ji lived as a family man but was above Maya and ego.</strong></p><p> <span style="color: indigo">3. </span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭੇਟੈ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤਾ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਹਸਾ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੂਟੈ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਧਾਵਤੁ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਵਰਜਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਹਾਈਐ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">sathigur bhaettai thaa sehasaa thoottai dhhaavath varaj rehaaeeai ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">Meeting with the True Guru, doubt is dispelled, and the wandering mind is restrained. </span></p><p> No one can succeed in any kind of spiritual path without a Guru. Only with a God-realized Satguru can the seeker reach God-consciousness. <u>This too is an ancient Indic tradition with roots in the Vedas and Yoga sutras.</u></p><p> <strong>I follow Guru and do not waste my time in attaching it to ancient wisdom because a Sikh can walk on Guru panth by following Gurbani without so called ancient wisdom. There is hint about to avoid all that, read “ ASA`Dee Vaar” (Pouri 9)</strong></p><p> <span style="color: indigo">4. </span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਿਝਰੁ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਝਰੈ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਹਜ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਧੁਨਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲਾਗੈ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਘਰ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੀ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਰਚਾ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਾਈਐ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">nijhar jharai sehaj dhhun laagai ghar hee parachaa paaeeai ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">Nectar rains down, celestial music resounds, and deep within, wisdom is obtained. </span></p><p> These translations really aren't exact but they do approximate. Veer ji, this relates to the praan opening the sixth and seventh chakras. The nectar trickles into the mouth from the pineal gland. As one is developing spiritually and the dasam duar is opening, the yogis listen for 5 sounds. After this, they hear the unstruck sound, anehad shabad. True wisdom is obtained by withdrawing the life current from the outer senses to the inner. This is giving the secret to true yoga here. Without this, there is no true wisdom. These are all very well known metaphysical descriptions of enlightenment.</p><p> <strong> Bhain ji, look at the words“ nijhar jhare”, means when mind over come vice urges, mind stills from wandering in search of fulfilling urges, thensmooth natural state of mind surges, within heart He is known( parchai=introduction). It has no reference to seventh Chakras, if there were, Guru ji would have written it. He didn’t, I wouldn’t accept out side editions</strong>.</p><p> <span style="color: indigo">5. </span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਾਨਕ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੀਵਤਿਆ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਹੀਐ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਐਸਾ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੋਗੁ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਮਾਈਐ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">naanak jeevathiaa mar reheeai aisaa jog kamaaeeai ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">O Nanak, remain dead while yet alive - practice such a Yoga.</span></p><p> Compare this with what was written earlier:</p><p> <strong>Yes, compare, no ego, intolerable is tolerated, no influence of Maya, this is real Yoga, not the other one.</strong></p><p> <span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੋਗੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਾਹਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੜੀ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਸਾਣੀ</span></span><u><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੋਗੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤਾੜੀ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲਾਈਐ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span></u><span style="color: purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: purple">jog n baahar marree masaanee jog n thaarree laaeeai ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">Yoga is not wandering to the tombs of the dead; Yoga is not sitting in trances. </span></p><p> </p><p>This refers to the praan withdrawn from the sensual sansaaric realm, the nine holes sealed to open the inner door of God-perception. And not being caught on some tantric superficial level of riddhia siddhia. Real yogic practice is not tantra or contacting lower astral spirits but activating your own God-realization.</p><p> <strong>Here it clearly rejects trances of Yogas with chakras and others pran abhyaas. Forcefully you are implying Yoga practice here. This also proves how badly you guys are gone away from Guru ji’s declaration about Yoga.</strong></p><p> <span style="color: indigo">6. </span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਵਾਜੇ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਾਝਹੁ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਿੰਙੀ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਵਾਜੈ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤਉ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਿਰਭਉ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਦੁ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਾਈਐ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">vaajae baajhahu sinn(g)ee vaajai tho nirabho padh paaeeai ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">When the horn is blown without being blown, then you shall attain the state of fearless dignity.</span></p><p> contrast this with what was said earlier:</p><p> <strong>Yes please do, horn blowing is yogi’s practice, here Guru ji hinting at Ajapa Simran contrary to it.</strong></p><p> <span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੋਗੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੁੰਦੀ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੂੰਡਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੁਡਾਇਐ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੋਗੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਿੰਙੀ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਵਾਈਐ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">jog n mundhee moondd muddaaeiai jog n sinn(g)ee vaaeeai ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">Yoga is not the ear-rings, and not the shaven head. Yoga is not the blowing of the horn. </span></p><p> </p><p>It is refering to spiritual development of real God-perception and not just the outer appearance of reaching God (practicing yoga). This is like the Radhasoamis who put their fingers in their ears to make ringing sounds and call it the anehad shabad. Guruji is teaching the correct and real yoga which is about opening the dasam duar to perceive sounds which don't exist in physical dimension and surpass even these to reach the anehad shabad.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, now you tell me how this shabad is saying what you claim:</p><p> <strong>I did my best, when Guru Shabad can be distorted in favor of Yoga, what can I say more Bhain ji? Rejection of Trance (TAARI), and all other stuff, means we do not need it.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong><em><span style="color: darkred">"You have read it otherwise, quite contrary to Guru ji message. I am sorry who can be lead to Yoga after reading it."</span></em></p><p></p><p>It isn't specifically talking about true yoga in this shabad? It isn't saying "yoga is not...yoga is not"..."But yoga is...yoga is"..."so become a Yogi!" (united with God). Maybe we are not reading the same shabad. So it is talking about yoga, but it's not about yoga. Explain please how this yoga referred to in Gurbani is contrary to Guruji's message...if that's Guruji's message. Guruji is the way, He is the spiritual Master, it is His path of yogic enlightenment leading to the God. Explain how I ever said Gurbani leads a person to someone like Yogi Bhajan who I don't even have association with? Is this what you're thinking?</p><p> <strong>I am thinking that you are distorting Gurbani in favor of Yoga. Take example of the very Shabad we just discussed, I wrote under what you wrote. Meaning of the Shabad doesn’t promote your Chakra-Yoga. Gurbani is not contrary at all. Distortion can make it look like it but Truth prevails. Here is the scene, looking at trances of Yogis, and their activities, Guru ji is saying” folks, this is not Yoga,” question rises, if this is not, then what is Yoga? Guru ji answers that ”to tolerate intolerable, how? By killing ego. How to live above Maya? Guru ji answers that too and calls it a real Yoga. If any group is digging it otherwise, contrary to Gurbachan, what I can do?</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong><em><span style="color: darkred">"Why it is necessary to call </span></em><em><span style="color: darkred">Nam</span></em><em><span style="color: darkred"> simran a kind of Yoga, why this path does need help from Yoga? Why these chakras etc to understand. Reason is very simple, people also known Sikhs practiced Yoga of special kind and influenced people; some find this technique very useful to attract people. Who listens if it is simply said, “leave every thing to HIS will and live in HIS love”. A few will even listen to it. People are prone to be influenced with extra ordinary things. In Sidh Ghost, Guru ji flatly says he doesn’t have any miracle but NAAM."</span></em></p><p></p><p>First the notion that Guruji had no miracles is British. The janam sakis are full of miracle stories. But aside from the point, we know Guruji could work any miracle. It was not His purpose to come into the world with diversions but with deliverance. The Naam is a miracle so great it brought the nirgun into the sansaara. The Naam is so powerful all the other yogas are failing to accomplish what it can accomplish. Nowhere in Gurbani does it say "leave everything to His will."</p><p> <strong>“Jo kush bhave Nanaka soyee gall change” or “ tera bhana meetha lage” for what do they stand? what other meaning any one can take from those ones? It says about another way to eliminate ego. Are you telling me to stand up against His will is True Sikhi? Miracles do not attract me; it is the miracles that take people away from HIM. Janam sakhis were imaginative, so why we are discussing Janam sakhi here for God’s Sake? What is British and what is not, I literally don’t care.</strong></p><p> As if we passively do nothing and God does everything. It says get up early and do isnaan and jap Naam. <strong>It says go to the sadhsangat and sing the kirtan of the Lord's praise. It says conquer your panj vikaars</strong>. It says meditate and remember the name of God with every breath and morsel of food. And we are instructed per hukam of Panj Piare and Akal Takht that it's important to receive amrit and keep rehit maryada. What I'm saying is, all those practices put together are Guruji's yoga, way of union with God. This path doesn't need help from yoga. Yoga needs help from this path. Because this path is true and real yoga.</p><p><strong>You just cannot help using word Yoga even though in a way you almost agree with me</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong>For some clarity on the 5 yogic sounds this is what Kulbir Singh Ji from Tapoban forum has explained:</p><p> <strong> Kulbir Singh? I don’t know the guy, how his saying can lead us to understand more Gurbani? I am only sticking with Guru Granth Sahib Ji, all Bhai Sahib, Baba Sahib, Sant baba or Mahan purakh, Bhrahmgyani are literally immaterial to me. If I could live as per Guru -teaching, I shall be lucky, why to waste my time on knowing other Bhai Sahib etc? Let me tell you who is guiding me</strong></p><p> <u><strong><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'GurbaniWebThick'">srb Drm mih sRyst Drmu ] hir ko nwmu jip inrml krmu ] sgl ik®Aw mih aUqm ikirAw ] swD sMig durmiq mlu ihirAw ] sgl audm mih audmu Blw ] hir kw nwmu jphu jIA sdw ] sgl bwnI mih AMimRq bwnI ] hir ko jsu suin rsn bKwnI ] sgl Qwn qy Ehu aUqm Qwnu ] nwnk ijh Git vsY hir nwmu ]8]3] {pMnw 266} M:star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star:</span></span></strong></u></p><p> <strong>( In essence the best of all religions is to do </strong><strong>Nam</strong><strong> Simran and live by pure conduct. The most sublime ritual of all is to erase the filth of the dirty mind in the Company of the Holy. The best effort is to do </strong><strong>Nam</strong><strong> simran from heart always. The most ambrosial bani is that which praises Almighty and be on the tongue. The most sublime place, says Nanak, is that heart in which the Name of the Almighty abides. Mehla 5 266) </strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pk70, post: 78893, member: 5889"] [b]Re: Sikh Names[/b] Quote“Seriously. Let's look carefully at this shabad veer ji. The reason I don't post big long shabad's is because I'm posting big long articles. So I plainly post the page number so anyone can go and read the Gurbani which I think relates to the subject. If there are for example 21 tuks which are talking about japping Naam with each and every breath, I don't see why reading the entire pauri is needed to shed better light on something obvious. In the same manner, there are many sanskrit yogic terminology used in Gurbani. When I point these out, you disagree with the meanings, or the translation, or the interpretations. That's okay, but reading the entire pauri won't diminish the presence of the yogic references. I will try to offer what clarification I can and answer objections as I can. But fundamentally, I'm not here to change anyone's opinion, only to share my own. The fun thing is, maybe some people will look at things in a different way. [B]Let’s talk about first terms only. Guru ji used terms related with Hinduism, Yogis, Islam, Sanyaasi etc. Those were prevailing religions or sects at his time. He had to talk and repudiate their philosophy because main purpose of life was Naam Simran and eliminating the width between HIM and us, occurs due to Maya influences (Japji). Only yogi term was not selected, so this is baseless point to say that there is presence of Yoga references in Gurbani. Guru ji takes one by one and gives his meaning to those words. Let me put it different way if you could understand my point better way. Guru ji takes on caste system and we all know that Caste System is strongly condemned in GGS Ji Look on.P 469 Mehla 2, Guru ji says Brahmin discusses Vedas, Khatris do acts of bravery, Shudras dharm is to serve others ( all Hindu religion belief). In the last vaak Guru ji says that actually every one’s dharm is to praise HIM.[/B] [B]Should we conclude here that Guru ji believes in caste system because he specially writes about different castes? Closed mind will do it. Here if any one reads it in totality of Gurbani, will understand that these words are used to advocate [/B][B]Nam[/B][B] Simran and, caste system is not accepted at all. That is the case with about Yoga term. [/B]You write:[I][COLOR=darkred] "You are free to take the meaning of Yoga as you wish; however, Guru Nanak’s followers understand that they do not need it."[/COLOR][/I] Are you implying I'm not a follower of Guru Nanak? That's a big conclusion. [B]It was not personal; if you think it was addressed to you, forgive me because I respect all who believe in Guru Nanak equally[/B]. [I][COLOR=darkred]"There is no such pouris, read carefully; it is not referred in advocacy of Yoga practice at all. Even the one that starts with" Asankh..." quoted by you."[/COLOR][/I] Veer ji do you realize the major Jathas such as Damdami Taksal, Akhand Kirtani Jatha, Nirmala, Nihang, actually interpret the Gurbani in the way I'm interpreting it now? [B]To be honest with you Bhainji, I do not believe in any of the above, I have very close friends who are like family members of Sant Bhindran wale group, I strongly disagree with them on Gurbani interpretation and they accept it at least in my presence. So these are not exemplary groups to understand Gurbani. Any group in the name of religion is not appreciated by 4 Mehla when he says to the fact that people who go for groups but the one who tunes to HIM doesn’t need any group(Rag Asa Mehla 4 Ghar 2. 266).[/B] There's nothing new or radical in what I'm saying or pointing out. Just, it isn't well known is all. What I'm saying has nothing to do with Yogi Bhajan for example. [B]Yogi Bhajan’s name came because you brought it in. [/B] Where did I say anything about yoga of Yogi Bhajan? I don't know any yoga from Yogi Bhajan. I took amrit from Panj Piare from AKJ. I'm not sayihng anything about yoga of Yogi Bhajan. Why are you jumping to this extreme conclusion? Is that the only kind of yoga you know about? Do you think every form of yoga in the world automatically relates to Yogi Bhajan? I believe Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji was a brahmgyani. [B]As I said above, Yogi[/B] [B]Bhajan’s name came because brought it, please reread your posts you will find it. I do not believe in AKJ, Panj pyare giving Naam secretly, I consider that is big discrimination and is almost anti Guru Nanak. I do not believe Bhai Randhir Singh as Brahmgyani. There is lot of Brahmgysanis promoted in some circles. My source is no body but Guru Granth Sahib, Period. That source comes directly to us from our glorious Fifth Nanak.[/B] And while I may respect individual insights Yogi Bhajan had, I don't even consider him the same way. A lot more people than Yogi Bhajan talk about these things. If you even researched old school yoga, these terms and yogic descriptions found in Gurbani would be immediately clear. Now, I'm not saying anyone has to go and study yoga. But even a casual glance and it becomes obvious. [U]Gurbani is based on a yogic tradition.[/U] [B]That is very untrue statement.[/B] Gursikhi is a yogic path. Can you explain what is meant by: [B]You bet I will[/B] [COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਤੂੰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਗੁਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਕਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਰਾਜ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਜੋਗੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]੧॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] thoon gur prasaadh kar raaj jog ||1|| By Guru's Grace, practice Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ||1|| ~SGGS Ji p. 211[/COLOR] [B][COLOR=black]Respected Bhain ji, Raj jog means “grehsti and Faqiri” all in one. Gur parsaad means with Guru’s blessings. Guru enables the family man to live like a Faqir(totally indifferent to all Maya influences). This very context, Guru Nanak is praised as “Raja Yogi” not raja yogi as your group promotes. Words speak for themselves.[/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਗੁਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਕੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਬਚਨਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਕੀਨੋ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਰਾਜੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਜੋਗੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen] gur kai bachan keeno raaj jog || Through the Guru's Word, I practice Raja Yoga, the Yoga of meditation and success. ~SGGS Ji p. 239[/COLOR] [B][COLOR=black]Again, translator fails to convey Guru Message; it’s not Yoga meditation, its family and faqiri together. The meaning should be,” with the teachings of Guru I have enjoyed Faqiri being family man.” Actually Shabad starts with Guru’s praise who helps to realize Him. Yogi nostalgia distorted the meaning just to promote it. Remember, during Guru Sahiban, pirthye, and others opened shops in the name of Guru Nanak and tried to sell this kind of stuff, true Sikhs remained tuned to Guru Sahiban.. About reference on P 923, I made it clear it has nothing to do with “your Yoga”. Its about enjoying Faqiri being family man. Nothing goes beyond that.[/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਰਾਜੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਜੋਗੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਤਖਤੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਦੀਅਨੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਗੁਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਰਾਮਦਾਸ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen] raaj jog thakhath dheean gur raamadhaas || Guru Raam Daas was blessed with the Throne of Raja Yoga. ~SGGS Ji p. 1399[/COLOR] [B][COLOR=black]Same point of view, translator mislead you to Yoga thing, it is not about Yoga.[/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][/B]What I keep trying to explain is Guruji teaches His own yoga, we don't have to learn from someone else. We have a Living Satguru who is teaching us. But you can't wrench the Gurbani, the supportive vaaran, the Gurmat tradition of several Jathas out of context to deny the reality of Sikhism as a form of yogic practice. It's just not believable all this talk about yoga in Gurbani doesn't really mean yoga! What does it mean then? Why is it in Gurbani? [B] Above I answered it how Guru ji gives meaning to the prevailed words (used to influence people to milk money)[/B] [COLOR=darkred][FONT=Raavi]ਚਾਰੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Raavi]ਬੇਦ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Raavi]ਕਥਹਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Raavi]ਆਕਾਰੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred] chaarae baedh kathhehi aakaar || The four Vedas speak only of the visible forms. [/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Raavi]ਤੀਨਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Raavi]ਅਵਸਥਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Raavi]ਕਹਹਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Raavi]ਵਖਿਆਨੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred] theen avasathhaa kehehi vakhiaan || They describe and explain the three states of mind, [/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Raavi]ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Raavi]ਸਤਿਗੁਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Raavi]ਤੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Raavi]ਹਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Raavi]ਜਾਨੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred][FONT=Raavi]੧॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkred] thureeaavasathhaa sathigur thae har jaan ||1|| but the fourth state, union with the Lord, is known only through the True Guru. ||1| ~SGGS Ji p. 154[/COLOR] It means the Vedas can take you far but they can't take you all the way. This is a radically different meaning than to say the Vedas are meaningless. [B]First of all Bhain ji, Sikhs do not need to study Vedas, why would you waste time on the scripture that doesn’t take to the final goal? Gurbani does and stick to it. Why craving for Vedas goes on? In above quote it is again clear all discussion of Vedas will take us to the middle. So, follow GURBANI ONLY WITHOUT DISTORTION. [/B] [COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਜੋਗ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਸਬਦੰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਗਿਆਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਸਬਦੰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਬੇਦ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਸਬਦੰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Raavi]ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣਹ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkgreen] jog sabadhan giaan sabadhan baedh sabadhan braahamaneh || The Way of Yoga is the Way of spiritual wisdom; the Vedas are the Way of the Brahmins. ~SGGS Ji p. 469[/COLOR] [B][COLOR=black]Again distortion, I tell you how and why? Guru ji starts with Yog dharm. Read the whole Shabad. It states “Yoga dharm is about knowledge to discuss about HIM, Brahamin’s dharm is to discuss Vedas. Khatri dharm is to do bravery acts, and low class category’s Dharm is to serve others.” After saying that, Guru ji expresses his own views, “all’s Dharm is to do His Naam Simran. Who understands this, I am his servant and he/she is like God.”[/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=black]From what part of brain attaches this Shabad to Yoga (or caste system?)[/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=black]Here is complete Sloke by Mehla 2 p-469[/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=black][FONT=GurbaniWebThick]mÚ 2 ] jog sbdM igAwn sbdM byd sbdM bRwhmxh ] KqRI sbdM sUr sbdM sUdR sbdM prwik®qh ] srb sbdM eyk sbdM jy ko jwxY Byau ] nwnku qw kw dwsu hY soeI inrMjn dyau ]2] {pMnw 469}[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=purple]Vaar 1 Pauri 14 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji[/COLOR] [B][COLOR=black]In this Vaar Bhai Sahib talks what others who say about it but in the end, reread what is said. It is Naam Simran that brings together Faqiri being in family life. In another line, Bhia sahib hints about yoga limitations. Again, it is used to support this failed practice.[/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=black] [/COLOR]Okay, let's go over the shabad you posted which you think is so objectionable to yoga in general, since yoga specifically means a method of union with God, and is thus a spiritual practice by definition. [COLOR=navy] ~SGGS Ji p. 730[/COLOR] The Gurbani is clearly saying Real spiritual yoga is not the outer appearance of wearing patched coat, earrings, shaven head, smearing with ashes, etc. Real yoga is remaining unblemished in the filth of the world. [B]Very good understanding[/B] Real yoga is not mere words or pretense but attaining the single eye (sixth level third eye Ajna chakra which enables intuitive spiritual perception of samaadhi, oneness of the God pervading all beings which the ordinary mind cannot grasp because of duality.) [B]This is made up thing; there is no word in the shabad about it. Yoga smells every where unnecessarily to Yoga promoters. It appears like programming to get the goal. Why crystal clear views are not clear? Where is sixth eye mentioned above? Guru ji has no regard for this imagination. He goes on telling you, and instead of listening to him, you are more tuned to AJC programming.[/B] [COLOR=blue]There is a scripture in Christian Bible which states: "“If thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.” - Matthew 6:22[/COLOR] [B][COLOR=black]I am not interested in it, out of context, we are discussing Yoga in Gurbani as per Guru says.[/COLOR][/B] This scripture is often cited by yogis (I learned it from studying Paramahansa Yogananda decades ago when I was a child) to illustrate that kateb also teaches a form of yoga. This is really old and basic stuff. No one can have undivided attentiveness, single-mindedness, or a single eye in a natural unenlightened state. [B]I am glad I didn’t go through it, I noticed changes within me without all stuff you are talking about, by just trying Gurbani as motto of life. Battle needs to win within, rest physical exercises are of no use. In GGS ji there is example of Dhanna Bhagat who got HIS blessings with devotion not with Yoga exercises, why any one even need it for union with HIM. For physical fitness it is alright. All comes down to how to make money otherwise. Naam Simran has nothing to do with all that.[/B] [COLOR=purple]"Eaek dhrisatt kar samasar jaanai jogee keheeai soee."[/COLOR] [COLOR=purple]“sum kar jane” taking good or bad as His blessings/ hukm, no more than that. Second why should I smell Yoga[/COLOR] Nothing in this entire shabad says there is no yoga, or that no one needs yoga as you are saying. The shabad clearly illustrates what is needed for there to be real yoga (union with God) and that is basically sincere practice, not just words or playing the role. [B]Shabad states that Yoga, the prevailed one is not real one, if it were, Guru ji wouldn’t picked on it. So then what is real? It is disclosed in the Shabad, then why to think it is not against Yoga? Why do you see every where Yoga. You can say “ [/B][B]Union[/B][B] with God” is Yoga, keep saying, I am saying that it is merging with Him. So what is the problem? You commented on Guru Shabad just to distort it” brought sixth eye” from your Yoga shelf though it is not even mention here. [/B]Now there are many hidden (I guess if unfamiliar with yogic terminology) yogic references in this shabad [B]That is called smelling Yoga.[/B] . I will try and point them out with explanation to the best of my ability. [COLOR=indigo]1. [/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਏਕ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਕਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸਮਸਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਜਾਣੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਜੋਗੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਕਹੀਐ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸੋਈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]੧॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਰਹਾਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] eaek dhrisatt kar samasar jaanai jogee keheeai soee ||1|| rehaao || One who looks upon all with a single eye, and knows them to be one and the same - he alone is known as a Yogi. ||1||Pause||[/COLOR] Refers to a transcendent state of consciousness where you are perceiving the Oneness without duality. This is attained by opening the 6th chakra and stimulating the pineal gland to obtain a whole new brain chemistry and expand into opening dasam duar at level of 7th Sahasrara crown chakra, unfolding the thousand petalled lotus of God-consciousness. [B]NO, not at all. Contrary to it is about killing ego completely, it is also supported by other Guru Bhagatas Vaak” like” if I am, HE is not, when He is, I am not[/B]” [B]AJC is just dreaming about these words.[/B] [COLOR=indigo]2. [/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਅੰਜਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਮਾਹਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨਿਰੰਜਨਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਰਹੀਐ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਜੋਗ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਜੁਗਤਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਇਵ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਪਾਈਐ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]੨॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] anjan maahi niranjan reheeai jog jugath eiv paaeeai ||2|| Remaining unblemished in the midst of the filth of the world - this is the way to attain Yoga. ||2|| [/COLOR] Refers to sincerity and inner purification, not outer purification practices as what will lead to true yoga (union with God). This relates to intention, that a real jogee isn't acting holy to be appreciated as a saddhu by people but is serious about doing the spiritual work to cleanse the impurities and blemishes that obstruct spiritual development. [B]Bhain ji, this Guru Vaak qualifies previous Guru Vaak, first ego to go, then be indifferent to Maya. Guru Nanak enjoyed this thing by living in this super state, also known as “Raj Yoga” unlike yogis, Guru ji lived as a family man but was above Maya and ego.[/B] [COLOR=indigo]3. [/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਭੇਟੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਤਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸਹਸਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਤੂਟੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਧਾਵਤੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਵਰਜਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਰਹਾਈਐ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] sathigur bhaettai thaa sehasaa thoottai dhhaavath varaj rehaaeeai || Meeting with the True Guru, doubt is dispelled, and the wandering mind is restrained. [/COLOR] No one can succeed in any kind of spiritual path without a Guru. Only with a God-realized Satguru can the seeker reach God-consciousness. [U]This too is an ancient Indic tradition with roots in the Vedas and Yoga sutras.[/U] [B]I follow Guru and do not waste my time in attaching it to ancient wisdom because a Sikh can walk on Guru panth by following Gurbani without so called ancient wisdom. There is hint about to avoid all that, read “ ASA`Dee Vaar” (Pouri 9)[/B] [COLOR=indigo]4. [/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨਿਝਰੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਝਰੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸਹਜ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਧੁਨਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਲਾਗੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਘਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਹੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਪਰਚਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਪਾਈਐ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] nijhar jharai sehaj dhhun laagai ghar hee parachaa paaeeai || Nectar rains down, celestial music resounds, and deep within, wisdom is obtained. [/COLOR] These translations really aren't exact but they do approximate. Veer ji, this relates to the praan opening the sixth and seventh chakras. The nectar trickles into the mouth from the pineal gland. As one is developing spiritually and the dasam duar is opening, the yogis listen for 5 sounds. After this, they hear the unstruck sound, anehad shabad. True wisdom is obtained by withdrawing the life current from the outer senses to the inner. This is giving the secret to true yoga here. Without this, there is no true wisdom. These are all very well known metaphysical descriptions of enlightenment. [B] Bhain ji, look at the words“ nijhar jhare”, means when mind over come vice urges, mind stills from wandering in search of fulfilling urges, thensmooth natural state of mind surges, within heart He is known( parchai=introduction). It has no reference to seventh Chakras, if there were, Guru ji would have written it. He didn’t, I wouldn’t accept out side editions[/B]. [COLOR=indigo]5. [/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨਾਨਕ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਜੀਵਤਿਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਮਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਰਹੀਐ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਐਸਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਜੋਗੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਕਮਾਈਐ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] naanak jeevathiaa mar reheeai aisaa jog kamaaeeai || O Nanak, remain dead while yet alive - practice such a Yoga.[/COLOR] Compare this with what was written earlier: [B]Yes, compare, no ego, intolerable is tolerated, no influence of Maya, this is real Yoga, not the other one.[/B] [COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਜੋਗੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਬਾਹਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਮੜੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਮਸਾਣੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][U][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਜੋਗੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਤਾੜੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਲਾਈਐ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][/U][COLOR=purple] jog n baahar marree masaanee jog n thaarree laaeeai || Yoga is not wandering to the tombs of the dead; Yoga is not sitting in trances. [/COLOR] This refers to the praan withdrawn from the sensual sansaaric realm, the nine holes sealed to open the inner door of God-perception. And not being caught on some tantric superficial level of riddhia siddhia. Real yogic practice is not tantra or contacting lower astral spirits but activating your own God-realization. [B]Here it clearly rejects trances of Yogas with chakras and others pran abhyaas. Forcefully you are implying Yoga practice here. This also proves how badly you guys are gone away from Guru ji’s declaration about Yoga.[/B] [COLOR=indigo]6. [/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਵਾਜੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਬਾਝਹੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸਿੰਙੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਵਾਜੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਤਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨਿਰਭਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਪਦੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਪਾਈਐ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] vaajae baajhahu sinn(g)ee vaajai tho nirabho padh paaeeai || When the horn is blown without being blown, then you shall attain the state of fearless dignity.[/COLOR] contrast this with what was said earlier: [B]Yes please do, horn blowing is yogi’s practice, here Guru ji hinting at Ajapa Simran contrary to it.[/B] [COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਜੋਗੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਮੁੰਦੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਮੂੰਡਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਮੁਡਾਇਐ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਜੋਗੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਸਿੰਙੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਵਾਈਐ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] jog n mundhee moondd muddaaeiai jog n sinn(g)ee vaaeeai || Yoga is not the ear-rings, and not the shaven head. Yoga is not the blowing of the horn. [/COLOR] It is refering to spiritual development of real God-perception and not just the outer appearance of reaching God (practicing yoga). This is like the Radhasoamis who put their fingers in their ears to make ringing sounds and call it the anehad shabad. Guruji is teaching the correct and real yoga which is about opening the dasam duar to perceive sounds which don't exist in physical dimension and surpass even these to reach the anehad shabad. Okay, now you tell me how this shabad is saying what you claim: [B]I did my best, when Guru Shabad can be distorted in favor of Yoga, what can I say more Bhain ji? Rejection of Trance (TAARI), and all other stuff, means we do not need it. [/B][I][COLOR=darkred]"You have read it otherwise, quite contrary to Guru ji message. I am sorry who can be lead to Yoga after reading it."[/COLOR][/I] It isn't specifically talking about true yoga in this shabad? It isn't saying "yoga is not...yoga is not"..."But yoga is...yoga is"..."so become a Yogi!" (united with God). Maybe we are not reading the same shabad. So it is talking about yoga, but it's not about yoga. Explain please how this yoga referred to in Gurbani is contrary to Guruji's message...if that's Guruji's message. Guruji is the way, He is the spiritual Master, it is His path of yogic enlightenment leading to the God. Explain how I ever said Gurbani leads a person to someone like Yogi Bhajan who I don't even have association with? Is this what you're thinking? [B]I am thinking that you are distorting Gurbani in favor of Yoga. Take example of the very Shabad we just discussed, I wrote under what you wrote. Meaning of the Shabad doesn’t promote your Chakra-Yoga. Gurbani is not contrary at all. Distortion can make it look like it but Truth prevails. Here is the scene, looking at trances of Yogis, and their activities, Guru ji is saying” folks, this is not Yoga,” question rises, if this is not, then what is Yoga? Guru ji answers that ”to tolerate intolerable, how? By killing ego. How to live above Maya? Guru ji answers that too and calls it a real Yoga. If any group is digging it otherwise, contrary to Gurbachan, what I can do? [/B][I][COLOR=darkred]"Why it is necessary to call [/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=darkred]Nam[/COLOR][/I][I][COLOR=darkred] simran a kind of Yoga, why this path does need help from Yoga? Why these chakras etc to understand. Reason is very simple, people also known Sikhs practiced Yoga of special kind and influenced people; some find this technique very useful to attract people. Who listens if it is simply said, “leave every thing to HIS will and live in HIS love”. A few will even listen to it. People are prone to be influenced with extra ordinary things. In Sidh Ghost, Guru ji flatly says he doesn’t have any miracle but NAAM."[/COLOR][/I] First the notion that Guruji had no miracles is British. The janam sakis are full of miracle stories. But aside from the point, we know Guruji could work any miracle. It was not His purpose to come into the world with diversions but with deliverance. The Naam is a miracle so great it brought the nirgun into the sansaara. The Naam is so powerful all the other yogas are failing to accomplish what it can accomplish. Nowhere in Gurbani does it say "leave everything to His will." [B]“Jo kush bhave Nanaka soyee gall change” or “ tera bhana meetha lage” for what do they stand? what other meaning any one can take from those ones? It says about another way to eliminate ego. Are you telling me to stand up against His will is True Sikhi? Miracles do not attract me; it is the miracles that take people away from HIM. Janam sakhis were imaginative, so why we are discussing Janam sakhi here for God’s Sake? What is British and what is not, I literally don’t care.[/B] As if we passively do nothing and God does everything. It says get up early and do isnaan and jap Naam. [B]It says go to the sadhsangat and sing the kirtan of the Lord's praise. It says conquer your panj vikaars[/B]. It says meditate and remember the name of God with every breath and morsel of food. And we are instructed per hukam of Panj Piare and Akal Takht that it's important to receive amrit and keep rehit maryada. What I'm saying is, all those practices put together are Guruji's yoga, way of union with God. This path doesn't need help from yoga. Yoga needs help from this path. Because this path is true and real yoga. [B]You just cannot help using word Yoga even though in a way you almost agree with me [/B]For some clarity on the 5 yogic sounds this is what Kulbir Singh Ji from Tapoban forum has explained: [B] Kulbir Singh? I don’t know the guy, how his saying can lead us to understand more Gurbani? I am only sticking with Guru Granth Sahib Ji, all Bhai Sahib, Baba Sahib, Sant baba or Mahan purakh, Bhrahmgyani are literally immaterial to me. If I could live as per Guru -teaching, I shall be lucky, why to waste my time on knowing other Bhai Sahib etc? Let me tell you who is guiding me[/B] [U][B][COLOR=black][FONT=GurbaniWebThick]srb Drm mih sRyst Drmu ] hir ko nwmu jip inrml krmu ] sgl ik®Aw mih aUqm ikirAw ] swD sMig durmiq mlu ihirAw ] sgl audm mih audmu Blw ] hir kw nwmu jphu jIA sdw ] sgl bwnI mih AMimRq bwnI ] hir ko jsu suin rsn bKwnI ] sgl Qwn qy Ehu aUqm Qwnu ] nwnk ijh Git vsY hir nwmu ]8]3] {pMnw 266} M:star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star:[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][/U] [B]( In essence the best of all religions is to do [/B][B]Nam[/B][B] Simran and live by pure conduct. The most sublime ritual of all is to erase the filth of the dirty mind in the Company of the Holy. The best effort is to do [/B][B]Nam[/B][B] simran from heart always. The most ambrosial bani is that which praises Almighty and be on the tongue. The most sublime place, says Nanak, is that heart in which the Name of the Almighty abides. Mehla 5 266) [/B] [/QUOTE]
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