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Guru Granth Sahib
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ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
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Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
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Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
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Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
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Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Yoga In Sikhism
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<blockquote data-quote="pk70" data-source="post: 78855" data-attributes="member: 5889"><p><strong>Re: Sikh Names</strong></p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੂਰ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਰੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੋਸਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲੈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੋਮ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਰੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪੋਖਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲੈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੁਗਤਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਰਤੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਨਬੰਧੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੀਜੈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">soor sar sos lai som sar pokh lai jugath kar marath s sanabandhh keejai ||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">Heat up the sun energy of the right nostril, and cool down the moon energy of the left nostril; practicing this breath-control, bring them into perfect balance. </span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੀਨ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੀ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਚਪਲ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਿਉ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੁਗਤਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਨੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਾਖੀਐ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਉਡੈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਹ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੰਸੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਹ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੰਧੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਛੀਜੈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੧॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">meen kee chapal sio jugath man raakheeai ouddai neh hans neh kandhh shheejai ||1||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">In this way, the fickle fish of the mind will be held steady; the swan-soul shall not fly away, and the body-wall will not crumble. ||1||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">~SGGS Ji p. 991</span></p><p> <strong>Above quote is about to be tuned to HIM Bhain ji, it is not about practice of Yoga, translation is horrible, no doubt people are distorting it to promote Yoga. Read this whole Shabad on GGS Ji 991-992, your eyes will be opened.</strong></p><p> </p><p> The question seems to be, "what is yoga?" Yoga ever was and always has meant a path or practice to facillitate <strong><em>union with God</em></strong>. And since ancient times and until the present, a Guru was the person uniquely qualified to take the seeker to the God. Not all Guru's are on the same spiritual level. What Gurbani teaches us is that Satguruji Nanak in all His forms is beyond even Hindu devas. Nowhere does Gurbani say, or allude to or suggest that Hindu devas don't exist, or are mere "mythology</p><p> <strong>I am not worried about Hindu devtas’ existence, it is` all about stories surrounding them due to which mythology word is used, don’t glue yourself to it, For a metaphor stories can be quoted from fiction also, big deal!</strong></p><p> <strong>All imaginative events are direct call for to use the word mythology. When Gurbani was revealed, it didn’t discuss these stories in detail save for simple reference where credit of miracles was given to Krishna or Rama or other Devtas, actually <u>only one deserves the credit, it is HIM as per Gurbani.</u></strong></p><p> ." It's really shocking that people have a Guru and are so completely dislocated from the history as not to recognize basic role of Guru, basic purpose of Guru, basic process of yoga. Every Guru in existence teaches a form of yoga. That is just arguing with words to say otherwise. Just to grab tuk from Gurbani where Guruji says yoga practices don't lead you to God doesn't mean HIS spiritual path (a form of yoga) doesn't lead to God</p><p> <strong>. You are free to take the meaning of Yoga as you wish; however, Guru Nanak’s followers understand that they do not need</strong> it.</p><p> It's unimaginable someone would think such would invalidate all the other pauris where Guruji talks about a form of yoga based on the sound current.</p><p> <strong>There is no such pouris, read carefully; it is not referred in advocacy of Yoga practice at all. Even the one that starts with" Asankh..." quoted by you.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p> Why did Satguruji put into Shabad Guru Ji Maharaaj the tuks from Kabir Ji if they serve no purpose or only vague reference to "mythology" and "yogic-Hinduism-brahmanvaad?" It is completely illogical reasoning. Either every word of Gurbani has the power of Gur-shabad-Jyot and is teaching us something about mukti, or not one word of Gurbani has meaning. No one can pick and choose Gurbani like that. </p><p> <strong>I quoted a complete Shabad,Bhain ji, have you cared to comment on it? You didn’t. Purpose is to justify Yoga even if ignoring of Guru Shabad is necessary</strong></p><p> And if we can't understand, then we have to acknowledge something is beyond our understanding. Who can say the Gurbani is meaningless because it doesn't fit into our personal frame of reference, or that it is merely historical or "mythological?</p><p> <strong>Imagination has no bounds, because nothing is said to prove what is written above.</strong></p><p> <strong>Quote is given as a whole shabad, it is beyond my comprehension why it is stated as Tuk. Question was about Yoga, now Hindu mythology has taken the place of it. </strong></p><p> Now the question again, what is yoga? It's completely bizarre to think only hatha yoga asanas (what most people think of) is the only kind of yoga, or to read Gurbani references to metaphysical physiology and somehow think it means Sikhs should get a yoga teacher and do bunch of postures and austerities. Thats completely misinformed. Gurbani is talking about Koran, Vedas, Kateba, and saying all these scriptures and religious paths cannot give you liberation. Gurbani is saying all the tapas, austerities, religious practices, yoga, Hindu rituals will not get you liberation. Gurbani is NOT saying don't follow the path of liberation Guru Nanak gives you. Guruji is giving us a path of liberation, and very clearly it is contra-distinguished from vain rituals, severe austerities, useless studying of scriptures. The path of Guru is called in Gurbani yoga...even in Gurbani. So we must contradistinguish that from other references to yoga. The crucial factor of difference is 1. we have Satguru, 2. we aren't given austerities but middle path as householder, 3. we aren't given postures but we ARE given pranayam Naam abhiyaas and simran meditation on the Naam, and singing kirtan in sadhsangat to attune with the Naam, and keeping the amrit vela to jap the Naam. Clearly Sikhs are given a form of yoga to practice which will reach the God by (unlocking dasm duar having traversed the body chakrs).</p><p> <strong>Why it is necessary to call </strong><strong>Nam</strong><strong> simran a kind of Yoga, why this path does need help from Yoga? Why these chakras etc to understand. Reason is very simple, people also known Sikhs practiced Yoga of special kind and influenced people; some find this technique very useful to attract people. Who listens if it is simply said, “leave every thing to HIS will and live in HIS love”. A few will even listen to it. People are prone to be influenced with extra ordinary things. In Sidh Ghost, Guru ji flatly says he doesn’t have any miracle but NAAM. After studying Gurbani for while I am totally convinced it doesn’t contradict at all, it is the reader who faults. </strong></p><p> <strong>Coming back to on GGS Ji 908.</strong></p><p> <strong> Guru shabad doesn’t support Yoga of Yogi Bhajan and others practices of Yoga. None. Read it, reread it, Guru ji’s views are crystal clear. Gurmukh becomes real Yogi by not practicing Yoga but by listening to Guru<u>. Remember conquering the mind, physical exercises wont conquer the mind.</u></strong></p><p> How can you read it any other way?</p><p> <strong>You have read it otherwise, quite contrary to Guru ji message. I am sorry who can be lead to Yoga after reading it.</strong></p><p> It's expressly clear and also vaaran of bhai Gurdas Ji sheds the same light on it. One would think Bhai Gurdas Ji who had darshan of 4 forms of Guru and whose own pen scribed the Adi Granth which became Guru, one would think he would know. It's unimaginable to think 300 years later that we know better with modern interpretations, that Bhai Gurdas Ji had it all wrong. That's just not a credible position. For one thing, if Sikhs were NOT intended to be yogi househoulders... why keep the hair? Why tie topknot? Because that is pure metaphysical physiological yogic practice. It serves absolutely no other conceivable purpose...unless you believe it's a Punjabi cultural ritualistic tradition with no practicality at all.</p><p> </p><p> <strong>I don’t understand what this word Punjabi has to do with this argument. Yogi Bhajan was also from Punjabi culture.. Point is to stay on one point and discuss it, here it starts from Yoga to Hindu mythology, from </strong><strong>Nam</strong><strong> Simnran to Yoga and to Punjabi Culture, Why to tie knot of hair in the middle? Another baseless question? It is getting funny when one smells every thing from Yoga tradition. Bhai Gurdas ji who didn’t support this, his Vaaran were used to get the support to practice Kundli etc. By the way Bhai Gurdas Vara #42 it says if it read many times fruit will be obtained. Wow. No need to do any thing just read the Vaar.It is 100% against Gurbani. Why we need any one even to interpret any thing in a context where Guru Shabad loudly calls “yoga”( often known a mere physical practice) couldn’t liberate the soul though the Yogi claimed, Why these special techniques are needed to be advocated under the name of Gurbani. As per truth revealed to Guru Nanak, living under His fear, living in His love, Living joyful in all circumstances while being tuned to HIM , is actually Yoga (if so called word Yoga is needed to be used.). </strong></p><p> <strong>Why we need word Yoga to confuse masses?. I have witnessed horrible behavior of people practicing Yoga, how becomes then necessary to have Yoga to walk on Guru panth.</strong></p><p> </p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">Quote from SGGS Ji p. 923</span></strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">This shabad doesn’t advocate “yoga”, Raj Yoga”( Raj Yoga’s meaning here=Being tuned to HIM, free from every thing while living in this world littered with Maya is what Guru Nanak enjoyed and passed on to his Jots), sticking with word Raj Yoga doesn’t mean it is about the yoga known practice. Here is another example when tuned to HIM, all yogis asnas are experienced without any effort of physical exercise. Whole Vaar keeps it clearing that physical yoga has nothing to do with liberation. It is advocating only love for Him, living under His Hukm and tuning to Him. I have underlined the vaaks that go against physical Yoga. Guru shabad also addresses the point directly</span></strong><span style="color: black">.</span></p><p> <span style="color: black">“</span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਖੇਚਰ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭੂਚਰ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਚਾਚਰੀ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਉਨਮਨ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲਘਿ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਗੋਚਰ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਾਣਾ</span></span><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">।</span></span><span style="color: black"> </span></p><p><span style="color: black"></span><span style="color: navy">khaychar bhoochar chaacharee unaman|aghi agochar baanaa|</span></p><p><span style="color: navy">Getting above of the khechar bhuchar chachar, unman and agochar (all yogic postures) mudras he concentrates upon the One Lord</span></p><p> <span style="color: navy">. ( <strong>no need of those postures)</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: navy"></span></p><p> <span style="color: navy"></span></p><p> <span style="color: navy"></span></p><p> <span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਉਣੁ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਾਣੀ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬੈਸੰਤਰੋ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਧਰਤਿ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਕਾਸੁ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਉਲਘਿ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਇਆਣਾ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">।</span></span><span style="color: navy"> </span></p><p><span style="color: navy">paunu paanee baisantaro dharati akaasu ulaghi paiaanaa|</span></p><p><span style="color: navy">Gurmukh goes beyond air, water, fire, earth and sky. </span></p><p><span style="color: navy"></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਾਮੁ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਵਿਰੋਧੁ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲਘਿ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲੋਭੁ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੋਹੁ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਵਿਹਾਣਾ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">।</span></span><span style="color: navy"> </span></p><p><span style="color: navy">kaamu krodhu virodhu|aghi|obhu mohu ahankaaru vihaanaa|</span></p><p><span style="color: navy"></span><strong><u><span style="color: black">Resisting lust and anger he crosses the greed, infatuation and ego.</span></u><span style="color: navy"></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: navy"></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: navy"></span></strong><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਤਿ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੰਤੋਖ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦਇਆ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਧਰਮੁ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਰਥੁ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੁ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗਰੰਥੁ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪੰਚ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਰਵਾਣਾ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">।</span></span><span style="color: navy"> </span></p><p><span style="color: navy">sati santokh daiaa dharamu aradu su garandu panch paravaanaa|</span></p><p><span style="color: navy">He espouses truth, contentment, compassion, dharma and fortitude. </span></p><p><span style="color: navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: navy"></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਖੇਚਰ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭੂਚਰ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਚਾਚਰੀ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਉਨਮਨ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲਘਿ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਗੋਚਰ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਾਣਾ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">।</span></span><span style="color: navy"> </span></p><p><span style="color: navy">khaychar bhoochar chaacharee unaman|aghi agochar baanaa|</span></p><p><span style="color: navy">Getting above of the khechar bhuchar chachar, unman and agochar (all yogic postures) mudras he concentrates upon the One Lord. </span></p><p><span style="color: navy"></span><span style="color: black">(<strong><u>This means mere tunning to Him by getting above all other physical practices</u></strong>)</span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪੰਚਾਇਣ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਰਮੇਸਰੋ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪੰਚ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਬਦ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਘਨਘੋਰ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨੀਸਾਣਾ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">।</span></span><span style="color: navy"> </span></p><p><span style="color: navy">panchaain paramaysaro panch sabad ghanaghor neesaanaa|</span></p><p><span style="color: navy"></span><u><span style="color: black">He beholds God in five (select persons) and the five sounds of five words become his special marks. </span></u></p><p><u><span style="color: black"><strong>(Again very clearly, five words, which are they? These are five elements, not Yoga thing, below Vaak it is clearer that those five are cultivated in holy congregation, not a word for a yogi</strong></span><strong><span style="color: black">and his company</span><span style="color: navy">)</span></strong></u><span style="color: navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: navy"></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪੰਚ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭੂਆਤਮਾ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਿਲਿ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਾਧ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੁਹਾਣਾ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">।</span></span><span style="color: navy"> </span></p><p><span style="color: navy">guramukhi panch bhooaatamaa saadhasangati mili saadh suhaanaa|</span></p><p><span style="color: navy"><strong>Antahkaran, the basis of all five external elements is cultivated and cultured by gurmukh in the holy congregation. </strong></span></p><p><span style="color: navy"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: navy"><strong></strong></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਹਜ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਮਾਧਿ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਵਣ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਾਣਾ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੫॥</span></span><span style="color: navy"> </span></p><p><span style="color: navy">sahaj samaadhi n aavan jaanaa </span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: navy">5</span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: navy">This way immersing in undisturbed trance he gets liberated from the cycle of transmigration.</span></p><p><span style="color: navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: navy">Vaar 7 Pauri 5 of Vaaran Bhai GurdasJi</span></p><p> Why would Bhai Gurdas of all people be talking about the mudras to block the energy (pran) from escaping the nine holes, and getting above these concentrate on the one Lord, which we must obviously infer relates to the opening of dasm duar...if all this was just mere "Hindu mythology?" Maybe we ourselves are mistaken with those contradictory impressions. Because clearly Gurbani is talking about a practice to cleanse the karam and unite the consciousness with God. And clearly most Sikhs (myself included) are not practicing as intently in the way which would achieve nirvanaa.</p><p> <strong>In the above Vaak Bhai Sahib is not speaking against Guru Nanak’s views on trances, I hope so. If he does, I will discard his teaching outright; however he doesn’t because he talks about that state of mind where one feels nothing but HIM.</strong></p><p></p><p><em><span style="color: darkred">"Sikhism was and is a for masses, high techniques has no advocacy in any Guru Shabad."</span></em></p><p>Oh really? A path of liberation is already made quite simple through technology of sound current. Or perhaps you don't believe in Guru's Shabad? Veerji, people may be simple-minded, but we all have an atma. And the higher consciousness of every living being, including a tree has intuitive perception greater than the literary ignorance of the common uneducated man. We aren't talking about ignorance or that spiritual teachings need to reflect basic ignorance to reach the masses? What would they reach them with? Spiritual teachings must needs reflect a hyperdimensionality which unites this world and the higher realms to be able to deliver anyone out of bondage from this one. If someone is drowning you throw him a rope. But if the rope is as ignorant and stuck as he is, what's the purpose? Like Einstein said, sometimes to solve a complex problem you have to expand to a higher dimension. That's what spirituality is. And thus it is something of an order of complexity beyond even the human brain. Thus spiritual teachings need to be grasped intuitively, by the jeev, not the brain. These teachings in Gurbani are beyond even scientists.</p><p> <strong>I would not compare Gurbani with science, its absurd. Gurbani is for the masses, common people who has no way to understand complexity of spirituality. If there are some who want to go through that road, let them go, a Sikh really doesn’t need yaga techniques to realize HIM, as per Gurbani. As Guru Shabad I quoted says it all, who cares if others are promoting Yoga.. </strong></p><p> We are talking about <strong><em>intuitive perception</em></strong>. On this level, even a little child can understand Gurbani.</p><p> <strong>I just see it is an imaginative statement.</strong></p><p> Are we to infer that Gurbani is deliberately ignorant to reach the masses?</p><p> <strong>Who said that? Contrary to this statement, Gurbani is for the masses?</strong></p><p> <strong>At the time of Guru Nanak, Hindu scriptures were in Sanskrit, Koran in Arabic, Guru Nanak chose common people’s language Punjabi obviously it says what I tried to say. Hair splitting has no end Bhain ji!</strong></p><p> Gurbani is so many levels of understanding. It speaks to a child, and it makes a child of the intellectual. We are all humbled by the grandeur, the depth, and by the glory of Gurbani. </p><p> <strong>Adults labor very hard to understand Gurbani, child enlightenment is just miracle nostalgia. Actually let me borrow a word from Randip Singh ji, miracle nostalgia hang over. </strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong>It's funny, but I read the simplest statement by a Zen Master years ago, which was so profound it took an entire book bringing in concepts from astrophysics and other dimensions to explain it. This is a philosophy forum. This is a place where we can examine the mysteries and profundity of Gurbani. But none of this means it is required to be a disciple of a true Guru, or undertake the simple path which Guruji gives His sikhs to obtain enlightenment. But naturally, Gurbani contains the essence of the nirgun and the sargun aspects of the Divine. We would finish ourselves before we could ever comprehend the totality of what is in Gurbani. The path is simple, but even scientists studying DNA will tell you the simplest ideas belie the world's greatest complexity. Gurbani understands the creation. Gurbani understands the anatomy and physiology of the human body AND it's spiritual purpose.</p><p> <strong>I never discussed limitation of Gurbani. I wouldn’t think like that for a second.</strong></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="color: darkred">"References are used just as references are found about Hindu mythology." </span></strong></p><p>This is a bold statement. First, may I ask you what is mythological about Hindu references in Gurbani. And before you answer, please reflect that Gurbani may be talking about unseen realms and higher dimensional beings which Hindu tradition has described in what is taken to be mythological terminology. This statement above completely discounts anything Gurbani may be saying. We do not presume to speak for Gurbani. We try to understand the depths of Gurbani, and accept that Gurbani may also be saying different things to different people at different times for different purposes, such is the message and power of Living Shabad Guru. But to presume to negate, discredit or invalidate any Gurbani references because someone may not accept, understand or agree with them is somewhat pretentious. Are you saying every reference which can be traced to Hindu religion which is in Gurbani... is mythological, not factual, not real, and therefore to be dismissed and disbelieved? Would you go so far?</p><p> <strong>It is better to understand the main idea, jumping to conclusion and accusations would do no good to the doer. Hindu mythology is word well known and got its status in this context when stories were told about throwing elephants in the sky and still they are up, Ganges flowing from Shiva(Every one knows the origin of Ganges,), whatever the scholar said in imagination was accepted with attitude of “no question should be asked”; One Devtas’ head is beheaded, a new head of elephant was put on(Gnesh Ji), these are mythological events and they are numerous, I do not have time to write about all of them here. These are not symbolic, in a fact it is a sheer imagination of the story tellers. In all stories there are myths, it doesn’t mean, there was no Ram, No Krishna, or others. That is not the issue, if I call them Hindu mythology, how will the application of the reference of them in Gurbani become invalid? Popular stories were in circles and Guru ji is saying that all they were created by Him, do not forget Him and never fall into the hands of these people who are making money on them. I feel, here a word is picked up, spun around and dragged to another issues. I have not seen a comment on the Shabad I quoted because it doesn’t support Yoga. As I said before, Guru ji showed only one path to live in His love and involve in in His praise to get rid of duality, no other path can be helpful in this context. In Sukhmani, Guru ji also calls it” sreshat Dharm” . Why finding other complexities to confuse simple minded. <u>Isn’t it an irony, simple battle with the mind is not won, people talk about Yoga technique complexities. Physical Yoga is easier than winning battle within, that is why Yoga love affair goes on.</u></strong></p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Remember language is symbolic. Every word we speak is a symbol referring to ideas, concepts, places, things. Sometimes symbolism, like poetry, potent truth. It could be since the concept of inner kundalini serpent power for good or for evil is a universal concept, that what is referenced here is more than mere mythology. Clearly there is a symbolic truth evident in major world religions which is being described as taming the serpent. Could it be that Gurbani is tackling profound spiritual concepts in a symbolic way rather than dryly repeating mere historic mythology for the entertainment of the common man?</p><p> <strong>No comment was made in this context either; quotes are coming from no where.<span style="color: darkred"></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: darkred"></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: darkred">"Even in JapJi Sahib, four realms are not addressed as any chakras or energy."</span></strong></p><p> <span style="color: purple">.</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">Quote~SGGS Ji p. 903</span></p><p> <strong>This Shabad doesn’t support complexities of Yoga, now symbols are taken in new meaning, it amazez me though!</strong></p><p> <span style="color: darkgreen">Quote~SGGS Ji p. 695</span></p><p> First, Japji Sahib is not the totality of Gurbani. If something is not addressed in Japji Sahib, but is addressed in Gurbani, does that make it's meaning invalid and unimportant? Second, uncountable realms are discussed, not specifically the metaphysical physiology of the human body. How does this invalidate the many references in Gurbani to the metaphysical physiology of the human body?</p><p> </p><p> <strong> In this quote no support for Yaga. I cannot comprehend why are you just in denial of not understanding Gurbani. In a reference to Japji, I pointed out, Guru ji showed four stages, developments of state of mind known as four realms. Not a word of Yoga in there, obviously, therefore Yoga- complex- techniques are not required by Guru ji to reach to SACH KHAND the final realm, that was the reason to quote Jap ji. <u>Now you are commenting on Japji. It is always good to read and see why this reference was given. Also your word disturbs me” Japji is not totality of Gurbani” It is uncalled for comment. I feel you just read translations, depth of the meaning of the Shabad fails to be realized due to translators limited understanding of the originals or crippled words which are handy while translating.</u></strong></p><p> <strong>There are many references in GGS Ji (like on 18,64, 67, 70, Raag Majh Mehla 5, gouri Cheti Mehla 1) clearly states that it is Nam Simran being tuned to Him is real Yoga but not all physical yoga practices adopted by any Sikh Yogi or others. Poor translations are creating this illusion. There are many Guru Shabad in which Guru ji talks about prevailed things and give own views either in "Pause" or at the end of the Shabadas. </strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pk70, post: 78855, member: 5889"] [b]Re: Sikh Names[/b] [COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸੂਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸਰੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸੋਸਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਲੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸੋਮ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸਰੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਪੋਖਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਲੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਜੁਗਤਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਕਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਮਰਤੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸਨਬੰਧੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਕੀਜੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] soor sar sos lai som sar pokh lai jugath kar marath s sanabandhh keejai || Heat up the sun energy of the right nostril, and cool down the moon energy of the left nostril; practicing this breath-control, bring them into perfect balance. [/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਮੀਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਕੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਚਪਲ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸਿਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਜੁਗਤਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਮਨੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਰਾਖੀਐ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਉਡੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਨਹ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਹੰਸੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਨਹ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਕੰਧੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਛੀਜੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]੧॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] meen kee chapal sio jugath man raakheeai ouddai neh hans neh kandhh shheejai ||1|| In this way, the fickle fish of the mind will be held steady; the swan-soul shall not fly away, and the body-wall will not crumble. ||1|| ~SGGS Ji p. 991[/COLOR] [B]Above quote is about to be tuned to HIM Bhain ji, it is not about practice of Yoga, translation is horrible, no doubt people are distorting it to promote Yoga. Read this whole Shabad on GGS Ji 991-992, your eyes will be opened.[/B] The question seems to be, "what is yoga?" Yoga ever was and always has meant a path or practice to facillitate [B][I]union with God[/I][/B]. And since ancient times and until the present, a Guru was the person uniquely qualified to take the seeker to the God. Not all Guru's are on the same spiritual level. What Gurbani teaches us is that Satguruji Nanak in all His forms is beyond even Hindu devas. Nowhere does Gurbani say, or allude to or suggest that Hindu devas don't exist, or are mere "mythology [B]I am not worried about Hindu devtas’ existence, it is` all about stories surrounding them due to which mythology word is used, don’t glue yourself to it, For a metaphor stories can be quoted from fiction also, big deal![/B] [B]All imaginative events are direct call for to use the word mythology. When Gurbani was revealed, it didn’t discuss these stories in detail save for simple reference where credit of miracles was given to Krishna or Rama or other Devtas, actually [U]only one deserves the credit, it is HIM as per Gurbani.[/U][/B] ." It's really shocking that people have a Guru and are so completely dislocated from the history as not to recognize basic role of Guru, basic purpose of Guru, basic process of yoga. Every Guru in existence teaches a form of yoga. That is just arguing with words to say otherwise. Just to grab tuk from Gurbani where Guruji says yoga practices don't lead you to God doesn't mean HIS spiritual path (a form of yoga) doesn't lead to God [B]. You are free to take the meaning of Yoga as you wish; however, Guru Nanak’s followers understand that they do not need[/B] it. It's unimaginable someone would think such would invalidate all the other pauris where Guruji talks about a form of yoga based on the sound current. [B]There is no such pouris, read carefully; it is not referred in advocacy of Yoga practice at all. Even the one that starts with" Asankh..." quoted by you. [/B] Why did Satguruji put into Shabad Guru Ji Maharaaj the tuks from Kabir Ji if they serve no purpose or only vague reference to "mythology" and "yogic-Hinduism-brahmanvaad?" It is completely illogical reasoning. Either every word of Gurbani has the power of Gur-shabad-Jyot and is teaching us something about mukti, or not one word of Gurbani has meaning. No one can pick and choose Gurbani like that. [B]I quoted a complete Shabad,Bhain ji, have you cared to comment on it? You didn’t. Purpose is to justify Yoga even if ignoring of Guru Shabad is necessary[/B] And if we can't understand, then we have to acknowledge something is beyond our understanding. Who can say the Gurbani is meaningless because it doesn't fit into our personal frame of reference, or that it is merely historical or "mythological? [B]Imagination has no bounds, because nothing is said to prove what is written above.[/B] [B]Quote is given as a whole shabad, it is beyond my comprehension why it is stated as Tuk. Question was about Yoga, now Hindu mythology has taken the place of it. [/B] Now the question again, what is yoga? It's completely bizarre to think only hatha yoga asanas (what most people think of) is the only kind of yoga, or to read Gurbani references to metaphysical physiology and somehow think it means Sikhs should get a yoga teacher and do bunch of postures and austerities. Thats completely misinformed. Gurbani is talking about Koran, Vedas, Kateba, and saying all these scriptures and religious paths cannot give you liberation. Gurbani is saying all the tapas, austerities, religious practices, yoga, Hindu rituals will not get you liberation. Gurbani is NOT saying don't follow the path of liberation Guru Nanak gives you. Guruji is giving us a path of liberation, and very clearly it is contra-distinguished from vain rituals, severe austerities, useless studying of scriptures. The path of Guru is called in Gurbani yoga...even in Gurbani. So we must contradistinguish that from other references to yoga. The crucial factor of difference is 1. we have Satguru, 2. we aren't given austerities but middle path as householder, 3. we aren't given postures but we ARE given pranayam Naam abhiyaas and simran meditation on the Naam, and singing kirtan in sadhsangat to attune with the Naam, and keeping the amrit vela to jap the Naam. Clearly Sikhs are given a form of yoga to practice which will reach the God by (unlocking dasm duar having traversed the body chakrs). [B]Why it is necessary to call [/B][B]Nam[/B][B] simran a kind of Yoga, why this path does need help from Yoga? Why these chakras etc to understand. Reason is very simple, people also known Sikhs practiced Yoga of special kind and influenced people; some find this technique very useful to attract people. Who listens if it is simply said, “leave every thing to HIS will and live in HIS love”. A few will even listen to it. People are prone to be influenced with extra ordinary things. In Sidh Ghost, Guru ji flatly says he doesn’t have any miracle but NAAM. After studying Gurbani for while I am totally convinced it doesn’t contradict at all, it is the reader who faults. [/B] [B]Coming back to on GGS Ji 908.[/B] [B] Guru shabad doesn’t support Yoga of Yogi Bhajan and others practices of Yoga. None. Read it, reread it, Guru ji’s views are crystal clear. Gurmukh becomes real Yogi by not practicing Yoga but by listening to Guru[U]. Remember conquering the mind, physical exercises wont conquer the mind.[/U][/B] How can you read it any other way? [B]You have read it otherwise, quite contrary to Guru ji message. I am sorry who can be lead to Yoga after reading it.[/B] It's expressly clear and also vaaran of bhai Gurdas Ji sheds the same light on it. One would think Bhai Gurdas Ji who had darshan of 4 forms of Guru and whose own pen scribed the Adi Granth which became Guru, one would think he would know. It's unimaginable to think 300 years later that we know better with modern interpretations, that Bhai Gurdas Ji had it all wrong. That's just not a credible position. For one thing, if Sikhs were NOT intended to be yogi househoulders... why keep the hair? Why tie topknot? Because that is pure metaphysical physiological yogic practice. It serves absolutely no other conceivable purpose...unless you believe it's a Punjabi cultural ritualistic tradition with no practicality at all. [B]I don’t understand what this word Punjabi has to do with this argument. Yogi Bhajan was also from Punjabi culture.. Point is to stay on one point and discuss it, here it starts from Yoga to Hindu mythology, from [/B][B]Nam[/B][B] Simnran to Yoga and to Punjabi Culture, Why to tie knot of hair in the middle? Another baseless question? It is getting funny when one smells every thing from Yoga tradition. Bhai Gurdas ji who didn’t support this, his Vaaran were used to get the support to practice Kundli etc. By the way Bhai Gurdas Vara #42 it says if it read many times fruit will be obtained. Wow. No need to do any thing just read the Vaar.It is 100% against Gurbani. Why we need any one even to interpret any thing in a context where Guru Shabad loudly calls “yoga”( often known a mere physical practice) couldn’t liberate the soul though the Yogi claimed, Why these special techniques are needed to be advocated under the name of Gurbani. As per truth revealed to Guru Nanak, living under His fear, living in His love, Living joyful in all circumstances while being tuned to HIM , is actually Yoga (if so called word Yoga is needed to be used.). [/B] [B]Why we need word Yoga to confuse masses?. I have witnessed horrible behavior of people practicing Yoga, how becomes then necessary to have Yoga to walk on Guru panth.[/B] [B][COLOR=black]Quote from SGGS Ji p. 923[/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=black]This shabad doesn’t advocate “yoga”, Raj Yoga”( Raj Yoga’s meaning here=Being tuned to HIM, free from every thing while living in this world littered with Maya is what Guru Nanak enjoyed and passed on to his Jots), sticking with word Raj Yoga doesn’t mean it is about the yoga known practice. Here is another example when tuned to HIM, all yogis asnas are experienced without any effort of physical exercise. Whole Vaar keeps it clearing that physical yoga has nothing to do with liberation. It is advocating only love for Him, living under His Hukm and tuning to Him. I have underlined the vaaks that go against physical Yoga. Guru shabad also addresses the point directly[/COLOR][/B][COLOR=black].[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]“[/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਖੇਚਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਭੂਚਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਚਾਚਰੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਉਨਮਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਲਘਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਅਗੋਚਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Raavi]ਬਾਣਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Mangal]।[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black] [/COLOR][COLOR=navy]khaychar bhoochar chaacharee unaman|aghi agochar baanaa| Getting above of the khechar bhuchar chachar, unman and agochar (all yogic postures) mudras he concentrates upon the One Lord[/COLOR] [COLOR=navy]. ( [B]no need of those postures)[/B] [/COLOR] [COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਪਉਣੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਪਾਣੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਬੈਸੰਤਰੋ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਧਰਤਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਅਕਾਸੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਉਲਘਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਪਇਆਣਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Mangal]।[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy] paunu paanee baisantaro dharati akaasu ulaghi paiaanaa| Gurmukh goes beyond air, water, fire, earth and sky. [/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਕਾਮੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਵਿਰੋਧੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਲਘਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਲੋਭੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਮੋਹੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਵਿਹਾਣਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Mangal]।[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy] kaamu krodhu virodhu|aghi|obhu mohu ahankaaru vihaanaa| [/COLOR][B][U][COLOR=black]Resisting lust and anger he crosses the greed, infatuation and ego.[/COLOR][/U][COLOR=navy] [/COLOR][/B][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਸਤਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਸੰਤੋਖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਦਇਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਧਰਮੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਅਰਥੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਸੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਗਰੰਥੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਪੰਚ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਪਰਵਾਣਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Mangal]।[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy] sati santokh daiaa dharamu aradu su garandu panch paravaanaa| He espouses truth, contentment, compassion, dharma and fortitude. [/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਖੇਚਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਭੂਚਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਚਾਚਰੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਉਨਮਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਲਘਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਅਗੋਚਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਬਾਣਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Mangal]।[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy] khaychar bhoochar chaacharee unaman|aghi agochar baanaa| Getting above of the khechar bhuchar chachar, unman and agochar (all yogic postures) mudras he concentrates upon the One Lord. [/COLOR][COLOR=black]([B][U]This means mere tunning to Him by getting above all other physical practices[/U][/B])[/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi] ਪੰਚਾਇਣ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਪਰਮੇਸਰੋ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਪੰਚ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਸਬਦ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਘਨਘੋਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਨੀਸਾਣਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Mangal]।[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy] panchaain paramaysaro panch sabad ghanaghor neesaanaa| [/COLOR][U][COLOR=black]He beholds God in five (select persons) and the five sounds of five words become his special marks. [B](Again very clearly, five words, which are they? These are five elements, not Yoga thing, below Vaak it is clearer that those five are cultivated in holy congregation, not a word for a yogi[/B][/COLOR][B][COLOR=black]and his company[/COLOR][COLOR=navy])[/COLOR][/B][/U][COLOR=navy] [/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਪੰਚ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਭੂਆਤਮਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਮਿਲਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਸਾਧ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਸੁਹਾਣਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Mangal]।[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy] guramukhi panch bhooaatamaa saadhasangati mili saadh suhaanaa| [B]Antahkaran, the basis of all five external elements is cultivated and cultured by gurmukh in the holy congregation. [/B][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਸਹਜ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਸਮਾਧਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਆਵਣ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਜਾਣਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]੫॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy] sahaj samaadhi n aavan jaanaa [/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy]5[/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy] This way immersing in undisturbed trance he gets liberated from the cycle of transmigration. Vaar 7 Pauri 5 of Vaaran Bhai GurdasJi[/COLOR] Why would Bhai Gurdas of all people be talking about the mudras to block the energy (pran) from escaping the nine holes, and getting above these concentrate on the one Lord, which we must obviously infer relates to the opening of dasm duar...if all this was just mere "Hindu mythology?" Maybe we ourselves are mistaken with those contradictory impressions. Because clearly Gurbani is talking about a practice to cleanse the karam and unite the consciousness with God. And clearly most Sikhs (myself included) are not practicing as intently in the way which would achieve nirvanaa. [B]In the above Vaak Bhai Sahib is not speaking against Guru Nanak’s views on trances, I hope so. If he does, I will discard his teaching outright; however he doesn’t because he talks about that state of mind where one feels nothing but HIM.[/B] [I][COLOR=darkred]"Sikhism was and is a for masses, high techniques has no advocacy in any Guru Shabad."[/COLOR][/I] Oh really? A path of liberation is already made quite simple through technology of sound current. Or perhaps you don't believe in Guru's Shabad? Veerji, people may be simple-minded, but we all have an atma. And the higher consciousness of every living being, including a tree has intuitive perception greater than the literary ignorance of the common uneducated man. We aren't talking about ignorance or that spiritual teachings need to reflect basic ignorance to reach the masses? What would they reach them with? Spiritual teachings must needs reflect a hyperdimensionality which unites this world and the higher realms to be able to deliver anyone out of bondage from this one. If someone is drowning you throw him a rope. But if the rope is as ignorant and stuck as he is, what's the purpose? Like Einstein said, sometimes to solve a complex problem you have to expand to a higher dimension. That's what spirituality is. And thus it is something of an order of complexity beyond even the human brain. Thus spiritual teachings need to be grasped intuitively, by the jeev, not the brain. These teachings in Gurbani are beyond even scientists. [B]I would not compare Gurbani with science, its absurd. Gurbani is for the masses, common people who has no way to understand complexity of spirituality. If there are some who want to go through that road, let them go, a Sikh really doesn’t need yaga techniques to realize HIM, as per Gurbani. As Guru Shabad I quoted says it all, who cares if others are promoting Yoga.. [/B] We are talking about [B][I]intuitive perception[/I][/B]. On this level, even a little child can understand Gurbani. [B]I just see it is an imaginative statement.[/B] Are we to infer that Gurbani is deliberately ignorant to reach the masses? [B]Who said that? Contrary to this statement, Gurbani is for the masses?[/B] [B]At the time of Guru Nanak, Hindu scriptures were in Sanskrit, Koran in Arabic, Guru Nanak chose common people’s language Punjabi obviously it says what I tried to say. Hair splitting has no end Bhain ji![/B] Gurbani is so many levels of understanding. It speaks to a child, and it makes a child of the intellectual. We are all humbled by the grandeur, the depth, and by the glory of Gurbani. [B]Adults labor very hard to understand Gurbani, child enlightenment is just miracle nostalgia. Actually let me borrow a word from Randip Singh ji, miracle nostalgia hang over. [/B]It's funny, but I read the simplest statement by a Zen Master years ago, which was so profound it took an entire book bringing in concepts from astrophysics and other dimensions to explain it. This is a philosophy forum. This is a place where we can examine the mysteries and profundity of Gurbani. But none of this means it is required to be a disciple of a true Guru, or undertake the simple path which Guruji gives His sikhs to obtain enlightenment. But naturally, Gurbani contains the essence of the nirgun and the sargun aspects of the Divine. We would finish ourselves before we could ever comprehend the totality of what is in Gurbani. The path is simple, but even scientists studying DNA will tell you the simplest ideas belie the world's greatest complexity. Gurbani understands the creation. Gurbani understands the anatomy and physiology of the human body AND it's spiritual purpose. [B]I never discussed limitation of Gurbani. I wouldn’t think like that for a second.[/B] [B][COLOR=darkred]"References are used just as references are found about Hindu mythology." [/COLOR][/B] This is a bold statement. First, may I ask you what is mythological about Hindu references in Gurbani. And before you answer, please reflect that Gurbani may be talking about unseen realms and higher dimensional beings which Hindu tradition has described in what is taken to be mythological terminology. This statement above completely discounts anything Gurbani may be saying. We do not presume to speak for Gurbani. We try to understand the depths of Gurbani, and accept that Gurbani may also be saying different things to different people at different times for different purposes, such is the message and power of Living Shabad Guru. But to presume to negate, discredit or invalidate any Gurbani references because someone may not accept, understand or agree with them is somewhat pretentious. Are you saying every reference which can be traced to Hindu religion which is in Gurbani... is mythological, not factual, not real, and therefore to be dismissed and disbelieved? Would you go so far? [B]It is better to understand the main idea, jumping to conclusion and accusations would do no good to the doer. Hindu mythology is word well known and got its status in this context when stories were told about throwing elephants in the sky and still they are up, Ganges flowing from Shiva(Every one knows the origin of Ganges,), whatever the scholar said in imagination was accepted with attitude of “no question should be asked”; One Devtas’ head is beheaded, a new head of elephant was put on(Gnesh Ji), these are mythological events and they are numerous, I do not have time to write about all of them here. These are not symbolic, in a fact it is a sheer imagination of the story tellers. In all stories there are myths, it doesn’t mean, there was no Ram, No Krishna, or others. That is not the issue, if I call them Hindu mythology, how will the application of the reference of them in Gurbani become invalid? Popular stories were in circles and Guru ji is saying that all they were created by Him, do not forget Him and never fall into the hands of these people who are making money on them. I feel, here a word is picked up, spun around and dragged to another issues. I have not seen a comment on the Shabad I quoted because it doesn’t support Yoga. As I said before, Guru ji showed only one path to live in His love and involve in in His praise to get rid of duality, no other path can be helpful in this context. In Sukhmani, Guru ji also calls it” sreshat Dharm” . Why finding other complexities to confuse simple minded. [U]Isn’t it an irony, simple battle with the mind is not won, people talk about Yoga technique complexities. Physical Yoga is easier than winning battle within, that is why Yoga love affair goes on.[/U][/B] Remember language is symbolic. Every word we speak is a symbol referring to ideas, concepts, places, things. Sometimes symbolism, like poetry, potent truth. It could be since the concept of inner kundalini serpent power for good or for evil is a universal concept, that what is referenced here is more than mere mythology. Clearly there is a symbolic truth evident in major world religions which is being described as taming the serpent. Could it be that Gurbani is tackling profound spiritual concepts in a symbolic way rather than dryly repeating mere historic mythology for the entertainment of the common man? [B]No comment was made in this context either; quotes are coming from no where.[COLOR=darkred] "Even in JapJi Sahib, four realms are not addressed as any chakras or energy."[/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=purple]. Quote~SGGS Ji p. 903[/COLOR] [B]This Shabad doesn’t support complexities of Yoga, now symbols are taken in new meaning, it amazez me though![/B] [COLOR=darkgreen]Quote~SGGS Ji p. 695[/COLOR] First, Japji Sahib is not the totality of Gurbani. If something is not addressed in Japji Sahib, but is addressed in Gurbani, does that make it's meaning invalid and unimportant? Second, uncountable realms are discussed, not specifically the metaphysical physiology of the human body. How does this invalidate the many references in Gurbani to the metaphysical physiology of the human body? [B] In this quote no support for Yaga. I cannot comprehend why are you just in denial of not understanding Gurbani. In a reference to Japji, I pointed out, Guru ji showed four stages, developments of state of mind known as four realms. Not a word of Yoga in there, obviously, therefore Yoga- complex- techniques are not required by Guru ji to reach to SACH KHAND the final realm, that was the reason to quote Jap ji. [U]Now you are commenting on Japji. It is always good to read and see why this reference was given. Also your word disturbs me” Japji is not totality of Gurbani” It is uncalled for comment. I feel you just read translations, depth of the meaning of the Shabad fails to be realized due to translators limited understanding of the originals or crippled words which are handy while translating.[/U][/B] [B]There are many references in GGS Ji (like on 18,64, 67, 70, Raag Majh Mehla 5, gouri Cheti Mehla 1) clearly states that it is Nam Simran being tuned to Him is real Yoga but not all physical yoga practices adopted by any Sikh Yogi or others. Poor translations are creating this illusion. There are many Guru Shabad in which Guru ji talks about prevailed things and give own views either in "Pause" or at the end of the Shabadas. [/B] [/QUOTE]
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