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Wonderful Excerpts Of SPN Member Confused Ji's Post
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<blockquote data-quote="Harry Haller" data-source="post: 164052" data-attributes="member: 14641"><p>Confusedji</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I understand Karma from your point of view, what I am trying to do is to take that understanding and attempt to gain some wisdom from it bearing in mind I have no belief in reincarnation. However, this is impossible, so it is a concept I am going to have to respect but I am unable to hold it dear. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Confusedji, Strangely enough, I have had a terrible night, no sleep, agitated mind, but what you have stated here as the non preferred option has struck a chord with me, 'one will seek explanations in terms of what one remembers to have taken place', all we have, given a non belief in reincarnation is this. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We are clearly at near opposites here <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> , it is self identification that is my meaning of life, anything that furthers this, is in my opinion a good thing, as it is knowing the self, that in my view, will bring me closer to God, and eventual understanding. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, a non belief in reincarnation offers no validation to the above, It is like trying to understand quantum physics with a rejection of basic physics. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What is the purpose of human life, of human existence, to live? but what is living? anyone can live, anyone can exist, anyone can wake up in the morning feed oneself, go to work, come home, eat again, and then sleep. In fact there are those in some situations to whom this would seem paradise. I , personally, have an addictive personality, nothing is ever enough, I feel wanting all the time, whether it is food, sex, drink, once I have got my mindset into the mode of wanting, I will not stop until I am sick of it. Life experience has taught me to avoid certain 'wants' because of the damage potential. Wisdom and understanding have taught me to come to peace with certain other 'wants' purely because </p><p>I know where certain roads lead. I am also getting old, I physically cannot subject my body to the over indulgence I was used to, where understanding and life experience is of no help, then I have to bring in discipline and moderation, it is through a combination of these that I get through life. I separate wisdom from understanding, because in my opinion, wisdom is what you know, understanding is whether you practice it without thinking. I know these may be Buddhist terms with other meanings, but for me, that is what they mean. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with you on this, my definition of present reality is sometimes just to sit down and say to myself, 'what the **** is actually going on here', if I can get a grasp on what is going on, regardless whether I can do anything about it, then thats half the battle. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think to do this with any success, you have to take wide view of life, and factor into this the past and the present. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with you on this completely given your background and beliefs, but for me, given the single life, I cannot accept this, in the absence of any belief in reincarnation, all I can do to accept your philosophy in any way is to build stories. If there are a multitude of lives, then one can afford to feel compassion towards aggressors, as it is a big merry go round, in the next life the aggressor is the victim, the victim is the aggressor, etc etc, for any of our concepts to be understood completely, one must try and see the others point of view, I have tried my best to view yours, and to some extent integrate it into my own, but with the greatest respect, you have tended to view your belief as eternally correct, and mind as eternally incorrect, I have no ruck with this, but I feel I should point out that the purpose of this debate, for me anyway, is to learn as much from you as possible that I can embrace within the confines of my understanding of Sikhism. It means huge tracts of Buddhism are of no use to me, but it also means that certain concepts are, and could be beneficial on my own path, and I appreciate your time in explaining those to me. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We judge situations to the best of our abilities, but I feel it important to judge on what is happening hear and now, rather than what has happened, will happen etc</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am not an aggressive person, even in quite violent situations, (having a knife pulled on me by a customer), I tend to crack jokes, try and calm down the person, and 99% it ends in a hug. If I see a scenario whereby I would have to be aggressive, I groan inwardly, I have no aggression to express. However, being a Sikh, I feel a responsibility towards the world, protect the weak, the helpless, the hungry, call it a bit romantic if you will, maybe I am deluding myself, and yes, it does involve judging who is the victim, who is the aggressor, and judging what is the right thing to do, but I believe this to be part of life, you either get it wrong, or you get it right, and yes, it is Maya, but it also has consequences, so it is not on the same level of Maya that you are viewing it, call it Maya lite! Maya with very real consequences. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Although viewed in the context of reincarnation, the above makes sense, without that concept, the possibility that the aggressor might realise his mistake and change is the only thing I can hold dear from the above. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have no option but to make these an ideal, I cannot give them the benefit of integration in my belief system. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, I have been there, and now we are both working like pigs, 12-14 hours a day, there is a part of me now that is hugely selfish, mine, mine, its all mine, I work hard, bit by bit, I try and get enough so that we are not destitute in old age, I would not say I am in sorrow about the situation, I believe you have to try different things, and giving, giving, borrowing to give, nope, I would not do that again, and I am not joyful...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I thought this for a long time, that it was not the giving that was wrong, that it was the level of my understanding that was letting me down, I feel like the wife of a wife beater, blaming herself for her husbands aggression, no, dear friend confusedji, the kindness we gave was wrong, it was given without understanding, wisdom, discretion, and respect for consequences, it was, in fact ours to give! </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I will have to concede this, because if I were to agree with it, then I would be a Buddhist!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Just what does happen if you give everything away, well now I know, I have no regrets, and certainly no guilt about having what others do not. Success always made me feel guilty, well not anymore. There are lots of things that I would wish to do once the monies return to normal, and lots of these things are for others, both in time and money, I look to my previous charitable works as being ripped off by charlatans and those of low character, the only way in which some good could come out of this is if I believed in more than one life, so this one concept is affecting everything in our thinking, both yours and mine. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Confusedji, you cannot, as you told me, have my cake and eat it. the above quote implies discretion, the middle way, balance, but it does not match the below quote in intention or meaning</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ive been told this all my life "Harry your doing it all wrong" lol</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>ਸਚਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਮਨਿ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ਉਦਾਸਾ ॥</p><p>The True Word of the Shabad abides in their true minds; within the home of their own inner beings, they remain detached.</p><p>ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਨਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਸੇ ਆਸਾ ਤੇ ਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥੫॥</p><p>|5|| O Nanak, those who serve their True Guru, rise from desire to desirelessness. ||5||</p><p></p><p>Within the home of their own inner beings, they remain detached, surely this means that although mentally they remain detached, they have full attachment from a physical point of view. I think this line stands for the impossibility of detachment, otherwise the phrase 'their own inner beings' is superfluous</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It means having understanding that all this is Maya, but also accepting that in that moment, pain, pleasure, suffering, happiness are all very real and able to be felt, hope that makes sense</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Religion is not for me, as it is for others, I have no interest in salvation, enlightenment, wisdom, knowing more than the average bear, merging with the big light, etc etc, Sikhism is for me purely a code of life, a code of consonance, with no other prize than a non agitated mind, contentment, maybe even happiness, followed by death. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed, I like the concept of the cheating states, this is an area of Buddhism that appeals to me, the way we trick ourselves </p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>whilst what you write is technically correct, the reality is that many many people have turned to religion after drink/drug addiction. The reason is that the states of drink/drug addled minds is a high, and being an addict, you want a bigger high, and then one day you realise that the biggest high is to be in consonance with Creation. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I reject your meaning of life, and in fact take an opposite stance, The meaning of life in my view is to find happiness and contentment, not by a change in circumstances, but understanding that it is 'all good', to break the programming that conditions existence, I think the most important thing is connection to Creation, to Creator, the state of Naam, not arising from prayer or meditation, but from connection. </p><p></p><p>Thank you again for your reply, it has helped me hugely come down from the agitated state I was in when I sat down</p><p></p><p>kaurhug</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Harry Haller, post: 164052, member: 14641"] Confusedji I understand Karma from your point of view, what I am trying to do is to take that understanding and attempt to gain some wisdom from it bearing in mind I have no belief in reincarnation. However, this is impossible, so it is a concept I am going to have to respect but I am unable to hold it dear. Confusedji, Strangely enough, I have had a terrible night, no sleep, agitated mind, but what you have stated here as the non preferred option has struck a chord with me, 'one will seek explanations in terms of what one remembers to have taken place', all we have, given a non belief in reincarnation is this. We are clearly at near opposites here :) , it is self identification that is my meaning of life, anything that furthers this, is in my opinion a good thing, as it is knowing the self, that in my view, will bring me closer to God, and eventual understanding. Again, a non belief in reincarnation offers no validation to the above, It is like trying to understand quantum physics with a rejection of basic physics. What is the purpose of human life, of human existence, to live? but what is living? anyone can live, anyone can exist, anyone can wake up in the morning feed oneself, go to work, come home, eat again, and then sleep. In fact there are those in some situations to whom this would seem paradise. I , personally, have an addictive personality, nothing is ever enough, I feel wanting all the time, whether it is food, sex, drink, once I have got my mindset into the mode of wanting, I will not stop until I am sick of it. Life experience has taught me to avoid certain 'wants' because of the damage potential. Wisdom and understanding have taught me to come to peace with certain other 'wants' purely because I know where certain roads lead. I am also getting old, I physically cannot subject my body to the over indulgence I was used to, where understanding and life experience is of no help, then I have to bring in discipline and moderation, it is through a combination of these that I get through life. I separate wisdom from understanding, because in my opinion, wisdom is what you know, understanding is whether you practice it without thinking. I know these may be Buddhist terms with other meanings, but for me, that is what they mean. I agree with you on this, my definition of present reality is sometimes just to sit down and say to myself, 'what the **** is actually going on here', if I can get a grasp on what is going on, regardless whether I can do anything about it, then thats half the battle. I think to do this with any success, you have to take wide view of life, and factor into this the past and the present. I agree with you on this completely given your background and beliefs, but for me, given the single life, I cannot accept this, in the absence of any belief in reincarnation, all I can do to accept your philosophy in any way is to build stories. If there are a multitude of lives, then one can afford to feel compassion towards aggressors, as it is a big merry go round, in the next life the aggressor is the victim, the victim is the aggressor, etc etc, for any of our concepts to be understood completely, one must try and see the others point of view, I have tried my best to view yours, and to some extent integrate it into my own, but with the greatest respect, you have tended to view your belief as eternally correct, and mind as eternally incorrect, I have no ruck with this, but I feel I should point out that the purpose of this debate, for me anyway, is to learn as much from you as possible that I can embrace within the confines of my understanding of Sikhism. It means huge tracts of Buddhism are of no use to me, but it also means that certain concepts are, and could be beneficial on my own path, and I appreciate your time in explaining those to me. We judge situations to the best of our abilities, but I feel it important to judge on what is happening hear and now, rather than what has happened, will happen etc I am not an aggressive person, even in quite violent situations, (having a knife pulled on me by a customer), I tend to crack jokes, try and calm down the person, and 99% it ends in a hug. If I see a scenario whereby I would have to be aggressive, I groan inwardly, I have no aggression to express. However, being a Sikh, I feel a responsibility towards the world, protect the weak, the helpless, the hungry, call it a bit romantic if you will, maybe I am deluding myself, and yes, it does involve judging who is the victim, who is the aggressor, and judging what is the right thing to do, but I believe this to be part of life, you either get it wrong, or you get it right, and yes, it is Maya, but it also has consequences, so it is not on the same level of Maya that you are viewing it, call it Maya lite! Maya with very real consequences. Although viewed in the context of reincarnation, the above makes sense, without that concept, the possibility that the aggressor might realise his mistake and change is the only thing I can hold dear from the above. I have no option but to make these an ideal, I cannot give them the benefit of integration in my belief system. Yes, I have been there, and now we are both working like pigs, 12-14 hours a day, there is a part of me now that is hugely selfish, mine, mine, its all mine, I work hard, bit by bit, I try and get enough so that we are not destitute in old age, I would not say I am in sorrow about the situation, I believe you have to try different things, and giving, giving, borrowing to give, nope, I would not do that again, and I am not joyful... I thought this for a long time, that it was not the giving that was wrong, that it was the level of my understanding that was letting me down, I feel like the wife of a wife beater, blaming herself for her husbands aggression, no, dear friend confusedji, the kindness we gave was wrong, it was given without understanding, wisdom, discretion, and respect for consequences, it was, in fact ours to give! I will have to concede this, because if I were to agree with it, then I would be a Buddhist! Just what does happen if you give everything away, well now I know, I have no regrets, and certainly no guilt about having what others do not. Success always made me feel guilty, well not anymore. There are lots of things that I would wish to do once the monies return to normal, and lots of these things are for others, both in time and money, I look to my previous charitable works as being ripped off by charlatans and those of low character, the only way in which some good could come out of this is if I believed in more than one life, so this one concept is affecting everything in our thinking, both yours and mine. Confusedji, you cannot, as you told me, have my cake and eat it. the above quote implies discretion, the middle way, balance, but it does not match the below quote in intention or meaning Ive been told this all my life "Harry your doing it all wrong" lol ਸਚਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਮਨਿ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ਉਦਾਸਾ ॥ The True Word of the Shabad abides in their true minds; within the home of their own inner beings, they remain detached. ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਨਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਸੇ ਆਸਾ ਤੇ ਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥੫॥ |5|| O Nanak, those who serve their True Guru, rise from desire to desirelessness. ||5|| Within the home of their own inner beings, they remain detached, surely this means that although mentally they remain detached, they have full attachment from a physical point of view. I think this line stands for the impossibility of detachment, otherwise the phrase 'their own inner beings' is superfluous It means having understanding that all this is Maya, but also accepting that in that moment, pain, pleasure, suffering, happiness are all very real and able to be felt, hope that makes sense Religion is not for me, as it is for others, I have no interest in salvation, enlightenment, wisdom, knowing more than the average bear, merging with the big light, etc etc, Sikhism is for me purely a code of life, a code of consonance, with no other prize than a non agitated mind, contentment, maybe even happiness, followed by death. Agreed, I like the concept of the cheating states, this is an area of Buddhism that appeals to me, the way we trick ourselves whilst what you write is technically correct, the reality is that many many people have turned to religion after drink/drug addiction. The reason is that the states of drink/drug addled minds is a high, and being an addict, you want a bigger high, and then one day you realise that the biggest high is to be in consonance with Creation. I reject your meaning of life, and in fact take an opposite stance, The meaning of life in my view is to find happiness and contentment, not by a change in circumstances, but understanding that it is 'all good', to break the programming that conditions existence, I think the most important thing is connection to Creation, to Creator, the state of Naam, not arising from prayer or meditation, but from connection. Thank you again for your reply, it has helped me hugely come down from the agitated state I was in when I sat down kaurhug [/QUOTE]
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