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Wonderful Excerpts Of SPN Member Confused Ji's Post
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<blockquote data-quote="Parma" data-source="post: 163737" data-attributes="member: 4724"><p>Quote C: You probably have not read many of my past discussions. It is like this: </p><p> </p><p> “Thinking” is a mental phenomenon which follows the experience through the five senses and also otherwise.>> </p><p> </p><p> As you say thinking is a “phenomenon”, = Oxford dictionary translation, 1) a fact or situation that is observed to exist or happen, especially one whose cause or explanation is in question. So when a person thinks something by your suggestion you are not thinking it, you have no thought it is a phenomenon, so all your thoughts are in question, you will never have any thought on anything as you never had a point (thought) to begin with. [/FONT]</p><p> </p><p> I didn't say that 'thinking' does not exist, but only that thoughts / concepts / that which thinking thinks about, does not.[/FONT]</p><p> <span style="color: #548DD4">You do realise what you are writing, you are suggesting that thinking has its own thinking process! In your own words and by your own idea’s what you have actually mentioned is that thinking does not now exist as thinking needs its own thinking to exist, by your suggestion it is a phenomenon so it is in question. Delusional![/FONT]</span></p><p> </p><p>Whether I am thinking about a flying purple hippo or about you or about myself, the thinking is a very real mental phenomenon with particular characteristic, function, manifestation and cause. These different referents on the other hand are just imaginations based on memory and other mental realities. And while thinking rises and falls away in an instant, thoughts don’t rise and fall away, but in fact give out an impression of lasting over time. [/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> How do answer any question! The whole process of i.e. you, thought is non-existent in your view. That is delusion! You are actually conveying that all thought is nothing! No one has thought in your mind, now that is conceited [/FONT]</p><p> Questioning and answering all involve thinking. Both problem and solution depend on thinking process which has concepts as object. Thinking 2 + 2 = 4 involves many, many different concepts and trillions of mind moments. [/FONT]</p><p> <span style="color: #548DD4">Mind moments, trillions of mind moments, so you are even now suggesting there is no thinking! Is the thinking, the mind, the moment or is the mind moment the thinking? Personally it is thought what you are on about! Delusion, Fact![/FONT]</span></p><p> </p><p> This does not imply that 2, plus or 4 are realties, does it?[/FONT]</p><p> <span style="color: #548DD4">You’ve have no concept of reality either! Delusional, will you say that 2 and 4 do not exist as numbers either? What next? [/FONT]</span></p><p> </p><p> We function only because of thinking, but this does not require that the different concepts involved be given the status of “reality” / existent. [/FONT]</p><p> <span style="color: #548DD4">At one point you are mentioning nothing can exist without thinking then you go on to suggest that thinking is the only thing that brings more thinking, but then you suggest thinking is a mind moment. Make up your mind either there is thinking or mind moments! The conclusion of your idea’s is; you are neither the thinker, the thinking the thought. You are neither the seeker the seeking the sought. Your process has become quagmire. [/FONT]</span></p><p> <span style="color: #548DD4">Realise in trying to split the processes of thought in fact you have split your reasons and so you have split your justifications. In context the individual or the concept of what you are. Your justifications have become delusional. [/FONT]</span></p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> Quote C: When for example, there is seeing, what is seen is just visible object or that which is seen. The perception of people and things is the result of the thinking process which follows upon many instances of seeing. These are therefore concepts and this is what I call ‘thoughts’.>> </p><p> </p><p> Look at the above for the answer on this you cannot grasp concepts as by your understanding you do not believe in thought! [/FONT]</p><p> I do not believe them to “exist”, but I do believe that thinking happens all the time and that without this, it is impossible to function at all. And thinking when arisen, *must* have concepts / thought as object, but this is all that is required of it. On the other hand, the thinking itself *has* to be real and existing, so too the experience of the five senses and their corresponding objects. [/FONT]</p><p> <span style="color: #548DD4">To keep things simple please write shorter sentences as it does not require big paragraphs to get the idea across. If anything it causes confusion that is your name and no solid answers formulate. I appreciate your efforts but it just gets dull and uninteresting to reply and if that is your style. To me that is just a waste of mental matter. In that context there is no point for me personally to carry on;[/FONT]</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p>For example, in order to boil water, there must be thinking, seeing and visible object, body consciousness and the earth, fire and wind elements, intention, feeling, attention, concentration, perception, body intimation and so on, all must be very real and without which no concepts would be thought about. And thinking, must think at many levels starting from drawing outlines, distinguishing objects, space, movement etc., but these as you can now probably imagine, are just mind constructs. Reacting to these constructs will lead me to different experiences through the five senses and the mind and this is basically how everybody functions. </p><p></p><p>Indeed to think that concepts are real and existing, this is not only unnecessary but is in fact a problem, since it leads to functioning driven by ignorance and attachment.[/FONT]</p><p> <span style="color: #548DD4">At what point do you contemplate reality?[/FONT]</span></p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> A dream does not physically exist but it is in existence of your thought. [/FONT]</p><p> Since a dream itself is thoughts, you appear to be suggesting that thoughts exist in thoughts. But I think what you really are trying to tell me is that, a dream or any concept is not real, however, there is such a thing called “thoughts” which do exist and is the basis for dreams and concepts in general. I say that there is no such thing, and allow me to come in from another angle to explain this.</p><p></p><p>For anything to be real and existing, it must be either a mental or a physical reality. A dream is not a physical reality as you seem to agree. But is it mental? </p><p></p><p>Mental realities are those which when arisen, must experience something. We can see for example, that perception perceives an object, thinking thinks, feeling feels, concentration focuses, attention attends and so on. Can the same be said about “thoughts”? What would a thought experience?</p><p></p><p>All these above mentioned mental phenomena must arise with consciousness and they all experience the same object. Therefore when there is thinking, thinking thinks thoughts and concentration, perception and so on, all experience the “thought” in their own way. The thought if real, obviously can’t experience itself, so what would it be experiencing? </p><p></p><p>The fact is that concepts are a creation of the thinking process and there is no such thing as ‘thoughts’ from which these concepts come about. There is only thinking which thinks thoughts / concepts and the latter do not exist. They can be said to be “shadows” of reality, and are not themselves reality. [/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> Existence is not just life based existence atoms exist, air exists but because you have no thought on it by your understanding they do not exist, but in fact they do! [/FONT]</p><p> Atoms and air are both concepts, which mean that they do not exist other than as object of thinking. What is real when you look down an electron microscope is seeing experiencing visible object and thinking, thinking about the different concepts. Atom, if conceived of at the time is just that, a concept. Likewise what you take for air is based on the experience through body consciousness at different times, of heat / cold, motion / pressure, hardness / softness and thinking arising to conceive of the particular concept and this too, built upon a myriad of other concepts.[/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> You cannot seriously be talking about “train of thoughts” as person that does not believe in the existence of thought. Delusion [/FONT]</p><p> Well, I say that thoughts, train or not train, are the creation of thinking. And I believe the thinking to be real and exist.[/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> Quote C: Feeling is a mental factor which arises with *all* experiences, including thinking. If it is not the raw experience of one of the five senses or of life continuum (as in deep sleep), then it must be an instance of thinking at some stage of the process. So as far as I’m concerned, God is a concept all the way through.>></p><p> </p><p> I agree to this and it is in line with what I have written, only you call god a concept I call god a reality a truth [/FONT]</p><p> I don't see the sense of what you are saying. If you agree that the experience of God is at any time only a concept, why do you think then that it is real? You mentioned that the concept originated from a 'feeling'. If I hallucinate and have strong feelings in relation to the object hallucinated, does that make it real?[/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> Quote C: Thought is not real and therefore does not have the kind of existence consciousness, mental factors and physical phenomena have, but only as object of thinking.>> </p><p> </p><p> This did not clarify anything. These are just big words concocted together that make no heads or tails of anything. Without getting too personal Alot of what you write is just wafflings and ramblings. [/FONT]</p><p> After reading my further explanations in this message, what do you now think?[/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> Quote C: Huh, you are saying that until science has come up with an answer as to how thought arises, I as a common man must be mistaken about my own understanding about it and therefore also attached to it?>></p><p> </p><p> There has to be some truth, (call it scientific) in your conclusions to give your thoughts some substance. At present the process you are using is conceited [/FONT]</p><p> I am not sure that I follow you. Are you insisting that science has to be expressing some truth and since I say that it does not, I am therefore conceited? Well, you can represent science and point out *one* truth that it has touched upon, and we can discuss that.[/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> Quote C: I say that if you follow the lead of science, you will never, ever come to understand the Truth!!>></p><p> </p><p> Now you don’t believe in science, delusional and conceited fact! [/FONT]</p><p> I believe in science as a legitimate line of inquiry and thought within the conventional world where concepts are the object of experience. But when it comes to reality / truth, I believe that science has absolutely no clue about this.[/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> Quote C: Science knows only concepts, namely the product of the thinking process. If is tries to study thinking, it can only do so by the process of thinking itself and therefore arrive only at a “concept” about it. What is worse is that science takes concept for reality and therefore leads one further away from the possibility of ever understanding what reality really is.>></p><p> </p><p> I am lost with you onwards here, if you cannot comprehend thought how can you comprehend reality! [/FONT]</p><p> To 'comprehend' is the function of thinking. And thinking thinks concepts. Concepts can be concepts about reality or as it is usually the case, about that which is not real / does not exist. When it is about reality, such as for example, thinking, feeling, sound, perception, kindness, attachment, aversion, faith, ignorance and so on, this can be a condition for understanding the reality which appears there and then. But this would however be due to the function of wisdom and not of thinking. [/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> Quote C: To reproduce and increase the population is a virtue? How?>> </p><p> </p><p> Any faith is about people, any religion is about people so to reproduce is about people. To increase population with good virtue is an incentive for humans to lead better lives for your off spring. To be against reproduction would mean to be against humanity or any species; over reproduction is another set issue [/FONT]</p><p> Ha, and I'm the one who is being accused of arrogance and conceit.</p><p>We can't even control our own minds or know what is going to happen one second from now. And yet believe that there'd come into existence beings who will be virtuous and wise as a result of our decision to reproduce. </p><p></p><p>If you'd focus on the Truth instead of thinking that religion is about people, you'd see that your concept about humanity and all the concerns related to this is in fact a proliferation conditioned by attachment and by wrong understanding.[/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> Quote C: And about attachment, are you saying that so long I can convince myself and others, such as that reproduction is a virtue, I can draw a line as to how much of it is permissible or even desirable? Am I to draw from this that you do not believe that on one hand, attachment, aversion, ignorance, conceit and so on are wrong and on the other hand, kindness, morality, generosity and wisdom are good by their very nature, but instead depend on the context? Would this not be making things convenient and justification for all sort of evil to arise?>></p><p> </p><p> No, because I am talking about keeping things in balance on your reasonings in yourself and not diverging all thoughts into one thought process unless it is on the truth. There is contractions in this as the process is keeping a balance. Thinking about only one thought in total, example; about reproduction could lead to untold calamities and tragedies. That’s why the Guru Granth Sahib is guide to keep the thought processes virtuous constant learning and constant improving on the thought process, which can only be obtained from a balanced approach [/FONT]</p><p> Have you ever noticed that the stories we tell ourselves about our own actions, these depends on what at the moment conditions the thinking? Anger weaves out one story, attachment, another and if instead there were kindness, the story would be completely different? Towards the same person, with anger the thoughts are different from when there is attachment and this again different if there is instead, kindness.</p><p></p><p>Everyone is involved in balancing between what actions are proper and what is not. This includes what they consider good and right some of which appear as aimed at others, but is in fact towards self-preservation and perpetuation . If wisdom on the other hand arose instead, it would understand the truth of that moment and condition accordingly, the right course of action. 'Working things out' is what attachment does, not wisdom. </p><p></p><p>Perhaps you might consider giving the concept of 'balanced approach' a different meaning? In Buddhism the Middle Way refers to an instance of wisdom arisen to know the present moment reality. It has nothing to do with thinking in terms of how much and what to do. If one is involved in trying to figure out what to do and not, the Middle Way would be to understand the thinking as thinking or attachment as attachment and from this, the right course of action may emerge. What do you think about this?[/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> Quote C: Ha, so you are saying that the path to liberation from attachment is the same one which leads to its increase? You get the best of both worlds (no need to find any kind of balance even), eat drink and be merry and in the end you also become liberated from the clutches of attachment.>> </p><p> </p><p> Yes because the realization is truth. I sit on no seat of judgement; Guru Nanak reformed a canabalist, jesus a prostitute. I don’t think you have read any of my past posts either. If a good man can do bad or a bad man can do good and they keep doing vice versa are they good or bad you cannot label human beings they are humans. [/FONT]</p><p> <span style="color: #548DD4">No I have not changed the topic. Thought and thinking is what we are talking about and as such it will take all types of explanations! [/FONT]</span></p><p> You have just changed the topic. We were not talking about whether anyone can change (conventionally speaking), but whether the change comes from moving along the same path. I suggest that attachment arisen now increases the tendency, and you are saying that it can one day lead to being free of it. </p><p></p><p>I say that being free of attachment is the result of the development of wisdom. And to give an example of someone in more or less a similar situation to the one you give above is Angulimala:</p><p></p><p>Angulimala who you probably heard about, was involved in killing people with the aim of collecting their finger so as to reach a total number aimed for. This was the result of wrong thinking following the suggestion of a fool. It also showed that because he was yet to become enlightened, the tendency to murder still existed. Upon hearing the Buddha speak however, he suddenly understood. And this is indication not that his attachment and aversion resulted in wisdom, but rather that he had in the past accumulated a great deal of wisdom, so much so that it now resulted in enlightenment. [/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> Most things can change even laws that are made change constantly. [/FONT]</p><p> Why call anything Law if it can change? Change is the nature of all conditioned existence, and fickle is our attitude towards things, but natural laws don't change nor waver. [/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> There will be contradictions to all of these thought processes as it is to remain in balance the centred self, which is the important concept. [/FONT]</p><p> This is your own attempt at resolution with regard to things that you either do not understand or misunderstand completely.[/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> The child simply realises that enjoyment is not formed just from the chocolate. The child in the example experiences too much and is on one side on the spectrum, peace or enlightenment, or liberation as you call it, is a personal process. What works for one may not work for another, what is one mans thought of heaven may be another mans thought of hell. Trutb h brings liberation. If you lose attachment what do you actually change in yourself, answer is nothing apart from the thought, but you say there is no thought. I would have thought this would have made more sense to you? You are still the individual that created the need, in that instance the thing that changes is your realization of the truth of that need and nothing more as you just need the truth as a saying goes the truth will set you free. [/FONT]</p><p> I'm having difficulty understanding what you are saying. Please explain it in a different way if you can.[/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> Do you know in Indian mythology there was a saint called Junamon (may have spelt it wrongly), he was a dakoo, a crook but when he jumped from a mountain of Mata Naina devi God called out to him and he is revered as a saint. Listen the whole proportion of this debate will take going through the entire Gurbani and I am sorry but I don’t have time to do that. It is too in-depth and it is all about individual enlightenment so I will leave you to pick up your own answers on it. I have tried my best to explain the broader thought. [/FONT]</p><p> And you can be sure that I appreciate your efforts.[/FONT]</p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> And on that note Sikhism is not about detachment it is about living in the world you are born in and be happy! What’s wrong with that, to experience peace where you are at, as god intended natural peace as god exists everywhere! [/FONT]</p><p> Given the teaching with regard to the wrongness of the Five Evils, it is obvious that detachment is very much encouraged. Peace is the peace that comes with this detachment, any other kind must be the influence of these same Five Evils and conditioned by ignorance. It is very much possible to develop detachment while living the household life. This is because detachment is the result of understanding and has nothing to do with any householder's attempt at balancing and arranging things. So I think that you are quite wrong in your conclusion with regard to the aim of Sikhism.[/FONT]</p><p> <span style="color: #548DD4">Your conclusions are aimed in regards to detachment and not in regards to Sikhism. In fact Sikhism is beyond your thoughts so please refrain, and I would appreciate it if you would not use terms on Sikhism and any other religious path as your knowledge is not gained from faith but a delusional detached motive of thought, my thoughts I try to gain from balanced reasons, and I am willing to accept all versions of thought apart from thinking that thinking is existing without thought, that is madness.[/FONT]</span></p><p> </p><p> Quote:[/FONT]</p><p> By your reasoning it is silly, but you have no thought so! [/FONT]</p><p> There is thinking and thoughts are the object. And this is a fact! ;-) [/FONT]</p><p> <span style="color: #548DD4">There is thinking and thought are the object. What is the Fact? I guess you mean you agree thoughts exist fact[/FONT]</span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Parma, post: 163737, member: 4724"] Quote C: You probably have not read many of my past discussions. It is like this: “Thinking” is a mental phenomenon which follows the experience through the five senses and also otherwise.>> As you say thinking is a “phenomenon”, = Oxford dictionary translation, 1) a fact or situation that is observed to exist or happen, especially one whose cause or explanation is in question. So when a person thinks something by your suggestion you are not thinking it, you have no thought it is a phenomenon, so all your thoughts are in question, you will never have any thought on anything as you never had a point (thought) to begin with. [/FONT] I didn't say that 'thinking' does not exist, but only that thoughts / concepts / that which thinking thinks about, does not.[/FONT] [COLOR=#548DD4]You do realise what you are writing, you are suggesting that thinking has its own thinking process! In your own words and by your own idea’s what you have actually mentioned is that thinking does not now exist as thinking needs its own thinking to exist, by your suggestion it is a phenomenon so it is in question. Delusional![/FONT][/COLOR] Whether I am thinking about a flying purple hippo or about you or about myself, the thinking is a very real mental phenomenon with particular characteristic, function, manifestation and cause. These different referents on the other hand are just imaginations based on memory and other mental realities. And while thinking rises and falls away in an instant, thoughts don’t rise and fall away, but in fact give out an impression of lasting over time. [/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] How do answer any question! The whole process of i.e. you, thought is non-existent in your view. That is delusion! You are actually conveying that all thought is nothing! No one has thought in your mind, now that is conceited [/FONT] Questioning and answering all involve thinking. Both problem and solution depend on thinking process which has concepts as object. Thinking 2 + 2 = 4 involves many, many different concepts and trillions of mind moments. [/FONT] [COLOR=#548DD4]Mind moments, trillions of mind moments, so you are even now suggesting there is no thinking! Is the thinking, the mind, the moment or is the mind moment the thinking? Personally it is thought what you are on about! Delusion, Fact![/FONT][/COLOR] This does not imply that 2, plus or 4 are realties, does it?[/FONT] [COLOR=#548DD4]You’ve have no concept of reality either! Delusional, will you say that 2 and 4 do not exist as numbers either? What next? [/FONT][/COLOR] We function only because of thinking, but this does not require that the different concepts involved be given the status of “reality” / existent. [/FONT] [COLOR=#548DD4]At one point you are mentioning nothing can exist without thinking then you go on to suggest that thinking is the only thing that brings more thinking, but then you suggest thinking is a mind moment. Make up your mind either there is thinking or mind moments! The conclusion of your idea’s is; you are neither the thinker, the thinking the thought. You are neither the seeker the seeking the sought. Your process has become quagmire. [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#548DD4]Realise in trying to split the processes of thought in fact you have split your reasons and so you have split your justifications. In context the individual or the concept of what you are. Your justifications have become delusional. [/FONT][/COLOR] Quote:[/FONT] Quote C: When for example, there is seeing, what is seen is just visible object or that which is seen. The perception of people and things is the result of the thinking process which follows upon many instances of seeing. These are therefore concepts and this is what I call ‘thoughts’.>> Look at the above for the answer on this you cannot grasp concepts as by your understanding you do not believe in thought! [/FONT] I do not believe them to “exist”, but I do believe that thinking happens all the time and that without this, it is impossible to function at all. And thinking when arisen, *must* have concepts / thought as object, but this is all that is required of it. On the other hand, the thinking itself *has* to be real and existing, so too the experience of the five senses and their corresponding objects. [/FONT] [COLOR=#548DD4]To keep things simple please write shorter sentences as it does not require big paragraphs to get the idea across. If anything it causes confusion that is your name and no solid answers formulate. I appreciate your efforts but it just gets dull and uninteresting to reply and if that is your style. To me that is just a waste of mental matter. In that context there is no point for me personally to carry on;[/FONT][/COLOR] For example, in order to boil water, there must be thinking, seeing and visible object, body consciousness and the earth, fire and wind elements, intention, feeling, attention, concentration, perception, body intimation and so on, all must be very real and without which no concepts would be thought about. And thinking, must think at many levels starting from drawing outlines, distinguishing objects, space, movement etc., but these as you can now probably imagine, are just mind constructs. Reacting to these constructs will lead me to different experiences through the five senses and the mind and this is basically how everybody functions. Indeed to think that concepts are real and existing, this is not only unnecessary but is in fact a problem, since it leads to functioning driven by ignorance and attachment.[/FONT] [COLOR=#548DD4]At what point do you contemplate reality?[/FONT][/COLOR] Quote:[/FONT] A dream does not physically exist but it is in existence of your thought. [/FONT] Since a dream itself is thoughts, you appear to be suggesting that thoughts exist in thoughts. But I think what you really are trying to tell me is that, a dream or any concept is not real, however, there is such a thing called “thoughts” which do exist and is the basis for dreams and concepts in general. I say that there is no such thing, and allow me to come in from another angle to explain this. For anything to be real and existing, it must be either a mental or a physical reality. A dream is not a physical reality as you seem to agree. But is it mental? Mental realities are those which when arisen, must experience something. We can see for example, that perception perceives an object, thinking thinks, feeling feels, concentration focuses, attention attends and so on. Can the same be said about “thoughts”? What would a thought experience? All these above mentioned mental phenomena must arise with consciousness and they all experience the same object. Therefore when there is thinking, thinking thinks thoughts and concentration, perception and so on, all experience the “thought” in their own way. The thought if real, obviously can’t experience itself, so what would it be experiencing? The fact is that concepts are a creation of the thinking process and there is no such thing as ‘thoughts’ from which these concepts come about. There is only thinking which thinks thoughts / concepts and the latter do not exist. They can be said to be “shadows” of reality, and are not themselves reality. [/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] Existence is not just life based existence atoms exist, air exists but because you have no thought on it by your understanding they do not exist, but in fact they do! [/FONT] Atoms and air are both concepts, which mean that they do not exist other than as object of thinking. What is real when you look down an electron microscope is seeing experiencing visible object and thinking, thinking about the different concepts. Atom, if conceived of at the time is just that, a concept. Likewise what you take for air is based on the experience through body consciousness at different times, of heat / cold, motion / pressure, hardness / softness and thinking arising to conceive of the particular concept and this too, built upon a myriad of other concepts.[/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] You cannot seriously be talking about “train of thoughts” as person that does not believe in the existence of thought. Delusion [/FONT] Well, I say that thoughts, train or not train, are the creation of thinking. And I believe the thinking to be real and exist.[/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] Quote C: Feeling is a mental factor which arises with *all* experiences, including thinking. If it is not the raw experience of one of the five senses or of life continuum (as in deep sleep), then it must be an instance of thinking at some stage of the process. So as far as I’m concerned, God is a concept all the way through.>> I agree to this and it is in line with what I have written, only you call god a concept I call god a reality a truth [/FONT] I don't see the sense of what you are saying. If you agree that the experience of God is at any time only a concept, why do you think then that it is real? You mentioned that the concept originated from a 'feeling'. If I hallucinate and have strong feelings in relation to the object hallucinated, does that make it real?[/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] Quote C: Thought is not real and therefore does not have the kind of existence consciousness, mental factors and physical phenomena have, but only as object of thinking.>> This did not clarify anything. These are just big words concocted together that make no heads or tails of anything. Without getting too personal Alot of what you write is just wafflings and ramblings. [/FONT] After reading my further explanations in this message, what do you now think?[/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] Quote C: Huh, you are saying that until science has come up with an answer as to how thought arises, I as a common man must be mistaken about my own understanding about it and therefore also attached to it?>> There has to be some truth, (call it scientific) in your conclusions to give your thoughts some substance. At present the process you are using is conceited [/FONT] I am not sure that I follow you. Are you insisting that science has to be expressing some truth and since I say that it does not, I am therefore conceited? Well, you can represent science and point out *one* truth that it has touched upon, and we can discuss that.[/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] Quote C: I say that if you follow the lead of science, you will never, ever come to understand the Truth!!>> Now you don’t believe in science, delusional and conceited fact! [/FONT] I believe in science as a legitimate line of inquiry and thought within the conventional world where concepts are the object of experience. But when it comes to reality / truth, I believe that science has absolutely no clue about this.[/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] Quote C: Science knows only concepts, namely the product of the thinking process. If is tries to study thinking, it can only do so by the process of thinking itself and therefore arrive only at a “concept” about it. What is worse is that science takes concept for reality and therefore leads one further away from the possibility of ever understanding what reality really is.>> I am lost with you onwards here, if you cannot comprehend thought how can you comprehend reality! [/FONT] To 'comprehend' is the function of thinking. And thinking thinks concepts. Concepts can be concepts about reality or as it is usually the case, about that which is not real / does not exist. When it is about reality, such as for example, thinking, feeling, sound, perception, kindness, attachment, aversion, faith, ignorance and so on, this can be a condition for understanding the reality which appears there and then. But this would however be due to the function of wisdom and not of thinking. [/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] Quote C: To reproduce and increase the population is a virtue? How?>> Any faith is about people, any religion is about people so to reproduce is about people. To increase population with good virtue is an incentive for humans to lead better lives for your off spring. To be against reproduction would mean to be against humanity or any species; over reproduction is another set issue [/FONT] Ha, and I'm the one who is being accused of arrogance and conceit. We can't even control our own minds or know what is going to happen one second from now. And yet believe that there'd come into existence beings who will be virtuous and wise as a result of our decision to reproduce. If you'd focus on the Truth instead of thinking that religion is about people, you'd see that your concept about humanity and all the concerns related to this is in fact a proliferation conditioned by attachment and by wrong understanding.[/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] Quote C: And about attachment, are you saying that so long I can convince myself and others, such as that reproduction is a virtue, I can draw a line as to how much of it is permissible or even desirable? Am I to draw from this that you do not believe that on one hand, attachment, aversion, ignorance, conceit and so on are wrong and on the other hand, kindness, morality, generosity and wisdom are good by their very nature, but instead depend on the context? Would this not be making things convenient and justification for all sort of evil to arise?>> No, because I am talking about keeping things in balance on your reasonings in yourself and not diverging all thoughts into one thought process unless it is on the truth. There is contractions in this as the process is keeping a balance. Thinking about only one thought in total, example; about reproduction could lead to untold calamities and tragedies. That’s why the Guru Granth Sahib is guide to keep the thought processes virtuous constant learning and constant improving on the thought process, which can only be obtained from a balanced approach [/FONT] Have you ever noticed that the stories we tell ourselves about our own actions, these depends on what at the moment conditions the thinking? Anger weaves out one story, attachment, another and if instead there were kindness, the story would be completely different? Towards the same person, with anger the thoughts are different from when there is attachment and this again different if there is instead, kindness. Everyone is involved in balancing between what actions are proper and what is not. This includes what they consider good and right some of which appear as aimed at others, but is in fact towards self-preservation and perpetuation . If wisdom on the other hand arose instead, it would understand the truth of that moment and condition accordingly, the right course of action. 'Working things out' is what attachment does, not wisdom. Perhaps you might consider giving the concept of 'balanced approach' a different meaning? In Buddhism the Middle Way refers to an instance of wisdom arisen to know the present moment reality. It has nothing to do with thinking in terms of how much and what to do. If one is involved in trying to figure out what to do and not, the Middle Way would be to understand the thinking as thinking or attachment as attachment and from this, the right course of action may emerge. What do you think about this?[/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] Quote C: Ha, so you are saying that the path to liberation from attachment is the same one which leads to its increase? You get the best of both worlds (no need to find any kind of balance even), eat drink and be merry and in the end you also become liberated from the clutches of attachment.>> Yes because the realization is truth. I sit on no seat of judgement; Guru Nanak reformed a canabalist, jesus a prostitute. I don’t think you have read any of my past posts either. If a good man can do bad or a bad man can do good and they keep doing vice versa are they good or bad you cannot label human beings they are humans. [/FONT] [COLOR=#548DD4]No I have not changed the topic. Thought and thinking is what we are talking about and as such it will take all types of explanations! [/FONT][/COLOR] You have just changed the topic. We were not talking about whether anyone can change (conventionally speaking), but whether the change comes from moving along the same path. I suggest that attachment arisen now increases the tendency, and you are saying that it can one day lead to being free of it. I say that being free of attachment is the result of the development of wisdom. And to give an example of someone in more or less a similar situation to the one you give above is Angulimala: Angulimala who you probably heard about, was involved in killing people with the aim of collecting their finger so as to reach a total number aimed for. This was the result of wrong thinking following the suggestion of a fool. It also showed that because he was yet to become enlightened, the tendency to murder still existed. Upon hearing the Buddha speak however, he suddenly understood. And this is indication not that his attachment and aversion resulted in wisdom, but rather that he had in the past accumulated a great deal of wisdom, so much so that it now resulted in enlightenment. [/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] Most things can change even laws that are made change constantly. [/FONT] Why call anything Law if it can change? Change is the nature of all conditioned existence, and fickle is our attitude towards things, but natural laws don't change nor waver. [/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] There will be contradictions to all of these thought processes as it is to remain in balance the centred self, which is the important concept. [/FONT] This is your own attempt at resolution with regard to things that you either do not understand or misunderstand completely.[/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] The child simply realises that enjoyment is not formed just from the chocolate. The child in the example experiences too much and is on one side on the spectrum, peace or enlightenment, or liberation as you call it, is a personal process. What works for one may not work for another, what is one mans thought of heaven may be another mans thought of hell. Trutb h brings liberation. If you lose attachment what do you actually change in yourself, answer is nothing apart from the thought, but you say there is no thought. I would have thought this would have made more sense to you? You are still the individual that created the need, in that instance the thing that changes is your realization of the truth of that need and nothing more as you just need the truth as a saying goes the truth will set you free. [/FONT] I'm having difficulty understanding what you are saying. Please explain it in a different way if you can.[/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] Do you know in Indian mythology there was a saint called Junamon (may have spelt it wrongly), he was a dakoo, a crook but when he jumped from a mountain of Mata Naina devi God called out to him and he is revered as a saint. Listen the whole proportion of this debate will take going through the entire Gurbani and I am sorry but I don’t have time to do that. It is too in-depth and it is all about individual enlightenment so I will leave you to pick up your own answers on it. I have tried my best to explain the broader thought. [/FONT] And you can be sure that I appreciate your efforts.[/FONT] Quote:[/FONT] And on that note Sikhism is not about detachment it is about living in the world you are born in and be happy! What’s wrong with that, to experience peace where you are at, as god intended natural peace as god exists everywhere! [/FONT] Given the teaching with regard to the wrongness of the Five Evils, it is obvious that detachment is very much encouraged. Peace is the peace that comes with this detachment, any other kind must be the influence of these same Five Evils and conditioned by ignorance. It is very much possible to develop detachment while living the household life. This is because detachment is the result of understanding and has nothing to do with any householder's attempt at balancing and arranging things. So I think that you are quite wrong in your conclusion with regard to the aim of Sikhism.[/FONT] [COLOR=#548DD4]Your conclusions are aimed in regards to detachment and not in regards to Sikhism. In fact Sikhism is beyond your thoughts so please refrain, and I would appreciate it if you would not use terms on Sikhism and any other religious path as your knowledge is not gained from faith but a delusional detached motive of thought, my thoughts I try to gain from balanced reasons, and I am willing to accept all versions of thought apart from thinking that thinking is existing without thought, that is madness.[/FONT][/COLOR] Quote:[/FONT] By your reasoning it is silly, but you have no thought so! [/FONT] There is thinking and thoughts are the object. And this is a fact! ;-) [/FONT] [COLOR=#548DD4]There is thinking and thought are the object. What is the Fact? I guess you mean you agree thoughts exist fact[/FONT][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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