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Wonderful Excerpts Of SPN Member Confused Ji's Post
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<blockquote data-quote="Harry Haller" data-source="post: 163627" data-attributes="member: 14641"><p>It is no burden brother, the mental gymnastics required to read and respond to your posts is welcome, I find it gives me peace and direction, although I had not fully responded to your last post, I will use the time to fully respond to this one. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have read this several times now, and I am beginning to understand your definition. Correct me if I am wrong but it is more about having a constant mental state, and because that is not so easy, identifying the mental states, and what causes these mental states, and how we deal with them, either by thought, action, spoken word, or even through writing <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />, taken in this context, I can see how karma manifests itself even in one life, so my lack of belief in reincarnation does not have to extend to a denial of karma</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would not say I completely understand karma, but I certainly now know what karma is not! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Karma as I now understand it is a release from the 'think-do' mentality that I possess, so it certainly is to do with the now, and not the past or the future, given my fresh understanding, I am now happy to accept karma as completely compatible with my thinking. It is interesting to note how many different types of karma there are, and how each religion has a different take on it, so I apologise for my confusion and ignorance as to which karma you were referring to. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think there is a tendency for people to put off things while they live, enlightenment being one of them, it is easier to work towards something if you have many lifetimes to achieve it, but Guru Nanakji , I think, tried to teach us that enlightenment is through living, rather than living being a dead weight whilst trying to be enlightened. I think through a combination of discipline, moderation, wisdom and understanding, 60-80 years is adequate time if one is committed to the truth, and truthful living. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, dear Confusedji, every time a bad intention arose, I still went ahead , I do not know if wisdom is the correct word, but I am not in the habit of kidding myself, most of the 1990's were spent on a mad rollercoaster, the only outcome being to find new and interesting ways to pleasure myself, and every single one of them was wrong, in fact the more wrong they were, the bigger the high felt. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Have you not observed that when you do any wrong, (and remember “justification man”); if it is not wishing not to be found out, that at least your wrong be forgiven and that you are given a second (and third, and fourth and fifth) chance? Why is it then that we are so quick to play the police with regard to other people’s wrong actions?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is very interesting, but it almost lauds viewing the world as a giant TV set, it requires a certain amount of detachment from reality. I think it is commendable, but also highly idealistic. Someone who does not judge, who does not put the rights of the victim above the rights of the aggressor, its almost like the world is a play with the only purpose being to educate and enlighten, I cannot accept a world like this, so either my understanding is wrong, or the concept is wrong, or, the concept is correct, my understanding is correct, but it is incompatible with my current thinking. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I will be frank here, if I went home later and found someone raping my wife, my immediate response would be to drag him off and insert one of my ferrets in his rectum. What would be your response?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think good deeds should be done with the consequences in mind, consequences to self, to others. Is it a good deed to give the rent to the homeless if it results in your own eviction? I think your answer would probably be, 'yes', as there is an attachment to having a home. I find your thinking incompatible with living a householders life, however I respect it as a path, and a worthwhile one. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I accept my misunderstanding of the word 'karma' , so this quote is moot, I now understand the concept thanks to your patient explaining, I may not even have fully understood it, but I would to think I am on the right path. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>taken in that context, I cannot argue with you. However as a Sikh, I think I have to add logic and discretion into the pot. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You certainly have your timing spot on. I have decided to suspend all kindness in order that we get our life back on track. I either have to detach myself to the point that I do not care about the rent being paid, or having no heating and food in the house, and I will be honest, that was the situation in my house last night. Do either of us care? no, not at all, there was enough for the animals, we have plenty of sweaters, but do I wish to impose this life on us as we hit our 50's?. I am an extreme person, if I were to follow your beliefs, then I would have to follow them to the furtherest point I could, otherwise there would be no point. I cannot do this, our acts of kindness have so far cost us close on £150,000. Enough I say, I have been working 7 day weeks for longer than I care to remember, and yet we seem overflowed with requests for kindness, and still people do not learn, people keep making the same mistakes, and we are part of this problem by showing kindness when that is clearly not what is required. It is our kindness that is making matters worse, not only for ourself, but for the people that we are kind to. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am not and have never been a shrew businessman, I actually do business from the perspective of those that I am doing business with, and will at times, refuse to do business if I feel it is not in the best interests of the other party, I deal in second hand laptops, and will refuse to sell if I feel the purchaser would be better off with a new one. I find this attitude on the whole, keeps me in money to an adequate level, until of course my wife gets a sob story, and I get roped into parting with it, however this has now stopped. I agree with your statement as to how best to express kindness, this is something we are trying to understand, rather than constantly throwing money at problems. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>ਇਕਿ ਕੰਦ ਮੂਲੁ ਚੁਣਿ ਖਾਹਿ ਵਣ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਾਸਾ ॥</p><p> Some pick and eat fruits and roots, and live in the wilderness.</p><p>ਇਕਿ ਭਗਵਾ ਵੇਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜੋਗੀ ਸੰਨਿਆਸਾ ॥</p><p> Some wander around wearing saffron robes, as Yogis and Sanyaasees.</p><p>ਅੰਦਰਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਛਾਦਨ ਭੋਜਨ ਕੀ ਆਸਾ ॥</p><p>But there is still so much desire within them-they still yearn for clothes and food.</p><p>ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇ ਨ ਗਿਰਹੀ ਨ ਉਦਾਸਾ ॥ </p><p> They waste their lives uselessly; they are neither householders nor renunciates.</p><p>ਜਮਕਾਲੁ ਸਿਰਹੁ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਮਨਸਾ </p><p> The Messenger of Death hangs over their heads, and they cannot escape the three-phased desire.</p><p>ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨੇੜੈ ਜਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਦਾਸਨਿ ਦਾਸਾ ॥</p><p> Death does not even approach those who follow the Guru's Teachings, and become the slaves of the Lord's slaves.</p><p>ਸਚਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਮਨਿ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ਉਦਾਸਾ ॥</p><p> The True Word of the Shabad abides in their true minds; within the home of their own inner beings, they remain detached.</p><p>ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਨਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਸੇ ਆਸਾ ਤੇ ਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥੫॥</p><p>|5|| O Nanak, those who serve their True Guru, rise from desire to desirelessness. ||5||</p><p></p><p>To me this is saying that one can never become truly free of attachment, and although one can strive for detachment from a mental point of view, your actions must always take into account the fact that we are also householders, that we must use our brains, our logic, rather than follow concepts for the sake of the concept. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Absolutely, I find the concepts of Hukam and Karma (Buddhist) quite closely linked. They both, in my view have to do with the order of the world right now, </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> having understood your concepts a bit more, yes I suppose I am </p><p></p><p>H</p><p></p><p>I wish to live, to be alive, and I would be the first to admit that what I read into Sikhism is not what is universally accepted. Of course I want to eat my cake, what would be the point in having a cake otherwise <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is true though, certain drugs can induce a state of absolute kindness, detachment acceptance, interesting experience, but incompatible with being a householder.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Every day I meet people who tell me what they aspire to, yet make no effort in changing their life to meet these aspirations. I would rather be honest and say to you that I wish to enjoy the experience of this playground called life, every day, whether I am hungry, cold, to still find happiness, contentment, a purpose, a goal, to learn something new, that for me is life. I do not seek pleasure all the time, I seek a balance between being happy, and being useful, and in living like this, to seek the truth. </p><p></p><p>Our views are different brother, however, today I think I got a grasp on Karma, so there is hope for me yet. </p><p></p><p>Thank you again for a wonderful 90 mins spent reading and replying, it has given me much food for thought, and there are ideals and theories you have mentioned that I will certainly think about when I cannot sleep, and I will play with the theories and debate them for many nights to come, thank you again for your time and energy</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Harry Haller, post: 163627, member: 14641"] It is no burden brother, the mental gymnastics required to read and respond to your posts is welcome, I find it gives me peace and direction, although I had not fully responded to your last post, I will use the time to fully respond to this one. I have read this several times now, and I am beginning to understand your definition. Correct me if I am wrong but it is more about having a constant mental state, and because that is not so easy, identifying the mental states, and what causes these mental states, and how we deal with them, either by thought, action, spoken word, or even through writing :), taken in this context, I can see how karma manifests itself even in one life, so my lack of belief in reincarnation does not have to extend to a denial of karma I would not say I completely understand karma, but I certainly now know what karma is not! :) Karma as I now understand it is a release from the 'think-do' mentality that I possess, so it certainly is to do with the now, and not the past or the future, given my fresh understanding, I am now happy to accept karma as completely compatible with my thinking. It is interesting to note how many different types of karma there are, and how each religion has a different take on it, so I apologise for my confusion and ignorance as to which karma you were referring to. I think there is a tendency for people to put off things while they live, enlightenment being one of them, it is easier to work towards something if you have many lifetimes to achieve it, but Guru Nanakji , I think, tried to teach us that enlightenment is through living, rather than living being a dead weight whilst trying to be enlightened. I think through a combination of discipline, moderation, wisdom and understanding, 60-80 years is adequate time if one is committed to the truth, and truthful living. Yes, dear Confusedji, every time a bad intention arose, I still went ahead , I do not know if wisdom is the correct word, but I am not in the habit of kidding myself, most of the 1990's were spent on a mad rollercoaster, the only outcome being to find new and interesting ways to pleasure myself, and every single one of them was wrong, in fact the more wrong they were, the bigger the high felt. Have you not observed that when you do any wrong, (and remember “justification man”); if it is not wishing not to be found out, that at least your wrong be forgiven and that you are given a second (and third, and fourth and fifth) chance? Why is it then that we are so quick to play the police with regard to other people’s wrong actions? This is very interesting, but it almost lauds viewing the world as a giant TV set, it requires a certain amount of detachment from reality. I think it is commendable, but also highly idealistic. Someone who does not judge, who does not put the rights of the victim above the rights of the aggressor, its almost like the world is a play with the only purpose being to educate and enlighten, I cannot accept a world like this, so either my understanding is wrong, or the concept is wrong, or, the concept is correct, my understanding is correct, but it is incompatible with my current thinking. I will be frank here, if I went home later and found someone raping my wife, my immediate response would be to drag him off and insert one of my ferrets in his rectum. What would be your response? I think good deeds should be done with the consequences in mind, consequences to self, to others. Is it a good deed to give the rent to the homeless if it results in your own eviction? I think your answer would probably be, 'yes', as there is an attachment to having a home. I find your thinking incompatible with living a householders life, however I respect it as a path, and a worthwhile one. I accept my misunderstanding of the word 'karma' , so this quote is moot, I now understand the concept thanks to your patient explaining, I may not even have fully understood it, but I would to think I am on the right path. taken in that context, I cannot argue with you. However as a Sikh, I think I have to add logic and discretion into the pot. You certainly have your timing spot on. I have decided to suspend all kindness in order that we get our life back on track. I either have to detach myself to the point that I do not care about the rent being paid, or having no heating and food in the house, and I will be honest, that was the situation in my house last night. Do either of us care? no, not at all, there was enough for the animals, we have plenty of sweaters, but do I wish to impose this life on us as we hit our 50's?. I am an extreme person, if I were to follow your beliefs, then I would have to follow them to the furtherest point I could, otherwise there would be no point. I cannot do this, our acts of kindness have so far cost us close on £150,000. Enough I say, I have been working 7 day weeks for longer than I care to remember, and yet we seem overflowed with requests for kindness, and still people do not learn, people keep making the same mistakes, and we are part of this problem by showing kindness when that is clearly not what is required. It is our kindness that is making matters worse, not only for ourself, but for the people that we are kind to. I am not and have never been a shrew businessman, I actually do business from the perspective of those that I am doing business with, and will at times, refuse to do business if I feel it is not in the best interests of the other party, I deal in second hand laptops, and will refuse to sell if I feel the purchaser would be better off with a new one. I find this attitude on the whole, keeps me in money to an adequate level, until of course my wife gets a sob story, and I get roped into parting with it, however this has now stopped. I agree with your statement as to how best to express kindness, this is something we are trying to understand, rather than constantly throwing money at problems. ਇਕਿ ਕੰਦ ਮੂਲੁ ਚੁਣਿ ਖਾਹਿ ਵਣ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਾਸਾ ॥ Some pick and eat fruits and roots, and live in the wilderness. ਇਕਿ ਭਗਵਾ ਵੇਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਜੋਗੀ ਸੰਨਿਆਸਾ ॥ Some wander around wearing saffron robes, as Yogis and Sanyaasees. ਅੰਦਰਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਛਾਦਨ ਭੋਜਨ ਕੀ ਆਸਾ ॥ But there is still so much desire within them-they still yearn for clothes and food. ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇ ਨ ਗਿਰਹੀ ਨ ਉਦਾਸਾ ॥ They waste their lives uselessly; they are neither householders nor renunciates. ਜਮਕਾਲੁ ਸਿਰਹੁ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਮਨਸਾ The Messenger of Death hangs over their heads, and they cannot escape the three-phased desire. ਗੁਰਮਤੀ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨੇੜੈ ਜਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਦਾਸਨਿ ਦਾਸਾ ॥ Death does not even approach those who follow the Guru's Teachings, and become the slaves of the Lord's slaves. ਸਚਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਮਨਿ ਘਰ ਹੀ ਮਾਹਿ ਉਦਾਸਾ ॥ The True Word of the Shabad abides in their true minds; within the home of their own inner beings, they remain detached. ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਨਿ ਆਪਣਾ ਸੇ ਆਸਾ ਤੇ ਨਿਰਾਸਾ ॥੫॥ |5|| O Nanak, those who serve their True Guru, rise from desire to desirelessness. ||5|| To me this is saying that one can never become truly free of attachment, and although one can strive for detachment from a mental point of view, your actions must always take into account the fact that we are also householders, that we must use our brains, our logic, rather than follow concepts for the sake of the concept. Absolutely, I find the concepts of Hukam and Karma (Buddhist) quite closely linked. They both, in my view have to do with the order of the world right now, :) having understood your concepts a bit more, yes I suppose I am H I wish to live, to be alive, and I would be the first to admit that what I read into Sikhism is not what is universally accepted. Of course I want to eat my cake, what would be the point in having a cake otherwise :) It is true though, certain drugs can induce a state of absolute kindness, detachment acceptance, interesting experience, but incompatible with being a householder. Every day I meet people who tell me what they aspire to, yet make no effort in changing their life to meet these aspirations. I would rather be honest and say to you that I wish to enjoy the experience of this playground called life, every day, whether I am hungry, cold, to still find happiness, contentment, a purpose, a goal, to learn something new, that for me is life. I do not seek pleasure all the time, I seek a balance between being happy, and being useful, and in living like this, to seek the truth. Our views are different brother, however, today I think I got a grasp on Karma, so there is hope for me yet. Thank you again for a wonderful 90 mins spent reading and replying, it has given me much food for thought, and there are ideals and theories you have mentioned that I will certainly think about when I cannot sleep, and I will play with the theories and debate them for many nights to come, thank you again for your time and energy [/QUOTE]
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