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Wonderful Excerpts Of SPN Member Confused Ji's Post
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<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 163622" data-attributes="member: 586"><p>Harry ji,</p><p></p><p>This is probably the longest post ever on SPN. Sorry if it turns out to be a burden for you.</p><p></p><p>====</p><p>Harry: Faith in such a system would shake my very foundations and force me to abandon the path I am on at present.</p><p></p><p>C: I suspect that your understanding about faith is different from mine. Faith as it is generally used is more about belief in something that has not been tested and proven and perhaps used as a working hypothesis. What I'm talking about on the other hand is almost the opposite of this. But first let me say a little about the two kinds of faith that I know to exist as a mental factor, and which arises only with wholesome states. </p><p></p><p>The first is with reference to all kinds of good. For example one gives when otherwise one might have held tightly to one's possessions, this is reflection of faith / confidence in giving. The second kind of faith is with reference to the development of understanding. It is confidence in the function of understanding and what is understood thereby. This includes the knowledge of what causes continued existence and the path (understanding itself) leading out of this.</p><p></p><p>With regard to karma, the confidence is of this second kind. Understanding Karma begins at the intellectual level, with reference to the idea of moral cause and effect. This leads to the study of different mental states and actually beginning to recognize which of these states are cause and which are resultants, and also as these manifest in the conventional world.</p><p></p><p>Karma is the “intention” which arises with all volitional actions, be this mental, verbal or physical. It is with increased understanding of these volitional actions and differentiating them from resultant consciousness that confidence in karma comes about. It has nothing to do with thinking about some action now and belief that this will lead to some result in the future, but rather understanding an aspect with regard to the nature of the present moment. I believe that your conception of karma involves some story concerning, the past, the present and the future and this may be the problem. </p><p></p><p>=====</p><p>Harry: As you must know, we all have to follow our path, and if and when the time is right, another path will suddenly make sense, at present the path of Karma is incompatible with my beliefs, but that is not to say it does not exist. </p><p></p><p>C: I don’t think in terms of persons following different paths. I may have a general idea about you following Sikhi and I following Buddhism, but when I respond, I do not think about this. Your characterizing what I have been saying as “path of Karma” is rather strange. I consider it the path of understanding the Truth, the Four Noble Truths to be precise. Indeed understanding itself is the Fourth of these Truths and sometimes called the Truth of the Path. Karma on the other hand is covered by the First and Second Truths. </p><p></p><p>You are perhaps thinking that I am encouraging the use of the concept of karma, as guide to action, one which requires thinking in terms of cause and effect happening in time. But as I explained earlier, understanding karma being all about now, leads to less thinking in terms of the past and the future. And it is not that *believing* in Karma leads to better understanding of what is now.</p><p></p><p>However on the other hand if there is rejection of the concept, this must be due to a wrong understanding about “now”. So in fact it all comes down to whether one is coming from a right understanding or wrong understanding with regard to one’s moment to moment experiences. If it is the former, then one will believe in Karma and if it is the latter, rejecting karma is one possible symptom, which will then only make things worse.</p><p></p><p>I can understand if someone believed in a controlling God why they might reject Karma. But you Harry ji, do not have this conception, so this particular problem is not there. But of course there is deeper problem, but you will not be aware of this. It is the problem of “self-view” one which is characterized by the tendency to look beyond the present moment for the answer to the question of cause and effect. We can discuss this if you like. In the meantime I would appreciate any explanation as to why you think that belief in karma is incompatible with your present set of beliefs. </p><p></p><p>====</p><p></p><p>Quote: Confused: You are saying that belief in past and future lives detracts from the importance of understanding this life, but the fact is that this happens due to causes other than the belief itself. And if you fail to identify the real cause and continue to give the wrong reason, invariably the same mental phenomena will influence your own thinking.</p><p></p><p>A belief can be the result of ignorance or of understanding. If it is ignorance, almost invariably there is wrong understanding and attachment accompanying, and if it is understanding, attachment can arise afterwards, but not necessary. The problem is ignorance, attachment and wrong understanding.</p><p></p><p>Harry: I have had to read the above several times in order to come up with a suitable answer, i can certainly see the sense in the whole karma argument, I suppose if I delved into it a bit more, I might even believe in it, however, I put faith in Guruji, it is a bit like distance healing, or prayer for the sick, they are most wonderful concepts and very attractive to believe in, as is karma, but the jist I am getting from the people I would call Guruji, all 11 of them, is that such paths are just circular, they are entertaining, but you end up just going round and round, </p><p></p><p>C: Something must be blocking my view, but if you can Harry ji, please explain how belief in karma as I've tried to explain the concept, is a circular path. Or perhaps the problem is that you have wrongly made it into a “path”, something I did not suggest?</p><p></p><p>====</p><p>Harry: Guruji has saved me much time by outlining which paths bear fruit and which do not, as such, I feel that these paths do not lead to enlightenment and Mukti. </p><p></p><p>C: Guru Nanak did teach a path, but I don't believe that he would have suggested that it is easy or that it is short cut, given his understanding as to the extent of ignorance and attachment in everyone. The perception that one life is enough for anyone to become liberated comes I think, from his more ambitious and deluded followers. </p><p></p><p>The cause must match the result projected. If you think that any person can be liberated in a matter of 20, 30, 60 or 80 years, please tell me what you see as being the cause leading to this?</p><p></p><p>======</p><p>Harry: I am unfamiliar with this concept, all my life I have known when I was doing something bad, or something good, and I have done plenty bad, but I never put myself under the illusion it was good. </p><p></p><p>C: Are you trying to convince me that every time that a bad intention arose, you knew of its existence but still went ahead to follow its lead? </p><p>Anyway, if it was in fact wisdom which arose to know it, this would have lead rather, to not follow the intention, otherwise why even call it wisdom?</p><p></p><p>======</p><p>Quote: I’m not sure what Edmund Burke has in mind, but if he is suggesting a proactive approach, I consider it very wrong, since it would be coming from within maya / the world and its values. It is the thinking of the social activist and not of a religious person.</p><p></p><p>Harry: I do not think he was talking about being proactive, because that does beg the question what is good and what is bad, I like to think of that quote being a bit more obvious, say walking past a robbery, a rape, a crime and doing nothing. </p><p></p><p>C: I must say that such attitude really puts me off. </p><p>Any degree of self-examination would reveal the existence of so much defilements. But even if the person was saintly, he’d sympathize with others who he knows to be still mired in ignorance and attachment. This is because he would understand what it means to be in the situation, which he too was in and took a long, long time to get out of. </p><p></p><p>Have you not observed that when you do any wrong, (and remember “justification man”); if it is not wishing not to be found out, that at least your wrong be forgiven and that you are given a second (and third, and fourth and fifth) chance? Why is it then that we are so quick to play the police with regard to other people’s wrong actions?</p><p></p><p>A saintly person has kindness towards everyone, not only the victim in a given situation. If he acts, it is not with the kind of perception that you appear to have. Indeed he may feel compassion more towards the aggressor, since he knows that that person's action is one which will lead to the experience of bad results. He does not play the karma police, but instead understands that whatever happens does so by conditions beyond control, such that whether he intervened or not, no one knows what is going to happen down the road. This conditions calm as opposed to the agitation which must necessarily exist when following E. Burke’s suggestion, who I think, would have been better off had he considered the lesson Jesus Christ was giving when he said, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone….”</p><p></p><p>=====</p><p>Quote: Besides what is it to win over evil out there? Is not hatred won by kindness, miserliness by generosity, envy by sympathetic joy, immorality by morality, ignorance by wisdom and so on? </p><p></p><p>Harry: I am not sure about this, I find hatred is won over by understanding, miserliness by understanding, envy etc etc,</p><p></p><p>C: You mean no kindness, generosity or sympathetic joy need to arise toward the other person at some point? What state exactly would be directed towards the other person?</p><p></p><p>====</p><p>Harry: I think it is all understanding, otherwise you run the risk of being taken for a fool, a mug, unless people truly understand there is no hope, how to provide that understanding is possibly a bigger question, but I am not sure it is by being a kind generous moral person.</p><p></p><p>C: First, do you suppose that these states can be made to come about by will and that anyone at all will have it? Two, what kind of understanding are you referring to? Is it the kind which involves thinking and trying to assess a situation, one which does not necessarily involve awareness of one's intentions and understanding the difference between good and evil states? If so, this and not what you have identified, is reflection of a “fool”. Fool, is the person who does not see the value of good and harm of evil. It is nothing to do with being judged by others as such or as gullible. </p><p></p><p>Earlier you had agreed that good deeds are done for their own sake, but now you appear to add conditions.</p><p></p><p>====</p><p>Harry: This is where the Karma issue creeps in, you are looking at it from a much bigger picture than I am. </p><p></p><p>C: Not really, you are looking beyond the present moment and thinking in terms of situations, and project that I am having thoughts that extend over a large area. But in fact I have all along, tried to encourage not moving away from the present moment. </p><p></p><p>====</p><p>Quote:That said, of course good intentions can arise and we should not waste any opportunity to do good, however these need not be preceded or followed by conceit and attachment. The motivation need not involve the kind of judgement which contrasts one group of people with another. Should kindness after all differentiate between this or that persons, if this in fact does happen, would that not indicate attachment and aversion rather than kindness?</p><p></p><p>Harry: I think that good intentions, kindness and the oppertunity to do good should be carried out with extreme care and caution.</p><p></p><p>C: I wonder if your objection arises in part, as result of your own wrong characterization of what I've been saying, re: 'path of Karma' instead of 'path of understanding'? </p><p></p><p>Anyway, the “any opportunity” in my comment above, does include whatever else that is needed for the act to be carried out. The encouragement should not be read as suggesting being impulsive. On the other hand however, it appears that your objection comes from being inclined toward the suggestion that there’d be times when kindness is not appropriate? If so, I’d suggest that this is not the kind of perception associated with any level of wisdom. It is hard enough that any kindness arise at all, harder still for wisdom to do so and see kindness for what it is. Also not all moments of kindness is accompanied by the necessary zeal and energy in order that the act is carried out. All this is known by wisdom which then seeks to encourage these necessary supports. </p><p></p><p>It may be that an act of kindness is not preceded by careful consideration of the situation. But this is a different problem and not an excuse to discourage kindness. One perhaps will need to develop other good qualities, but to think that kindness is not called for is wrong thinking. After all kindness can arise but one may hesitate to act it out due to other considerations. But this is not the same as saying that kindness is not needed. It can be there and its value acknowledged, and ready to be expressed when the situation demands. </p><p></p><p>====</p><p>Harry: I feel there is a huge risk of being manipulated and for the wrong people to be given this, better to help someone who will benefit, than somone who it will corrupt, that is where logic and thinking comes into it. </p><p></p><p>C: You are of course right that it is better to give to someone with virtue than to someone without (conventionally speaking). And also that some people will become spoilt and try to manipulate. But this is about giving, not about kindness, and giving material help and not say, the gift of truth and the necessary zeal and energy required for this to happen. So one might say with regard to the corrupt, that in fact kindness is called for even more. </p><p></p><p>Logic and thinking is helpful only if supported by understanding. A shrewd businessman for example thinks from all sides, but only to his own advantage and because of this, is not “wise” at all. And if the thinking is in fact associated with wisdom, you are actually talking about that which would also see the value in generosity and kindness. So it is not like one will go against the inclination of the other. Indeed it may come down only to how best the kindness and generosity be expressed and not to whether to express it or not. </p><p>What do you think?</p><p></p><p>====</p><p></p><p>Quote:Confused: Attachment to self is rooted in ignorance and when one “believes” in doing the right thing, wrong understanding may be the driving force. This comes across to the person as right, which means that the real motivations are hidden. It takes wisdom to know what the reality is at the moment, and if this does not happen, how can we be sure that what arose was in fact a wholesome or an unwholesome state of mind. </p><p></p><p>Harry: We can be sure, as a Sikh, by reading and understanding Bani, which in my view, provides all the wisdom one needs to make the best decisions one can. Not blindly, but decisions made on the basis of intelligence, wisdom, discretion. </p><p></p><p>C: So what is it about, your wisdom arisen to understand what the reality is now, or following someone else's suggestions? Can you give an example of what it means to read the Bani and following its suggestions *with wisdom*?</p><p></p><p>======</p><p>Harry: I believe in Creator and Creation, so the effect of my actions on Creation is of huge interest to me.</p><p></p><p>C: I’ve seen you and Ambarsaria ji give so much importance to the particular idea, one which I recognize as having elements of Taoism and some western mysticism. I will not be surprised that you will not find the same implications, expressed anywhere in the Siri Guru Granth. </p><p></p><p>And as you know, this is very far from my own position. </p><p>The Buddha once gave a simile of the man shot by an arrow who will not allow medical help unless he first knew who shot the arrow, where he lived, his family, what wood the arrow was made, what wood the bow, etc. This man would therefore die before he came to know the answers. The message here is not so much that he is wasting precious time, but rather that his is a wrong line of enquiry.</p><p></p><p>If there is any penetration into the nature of the present moment experience, it will be seen that all the causes and conditions reside in that very moment. To seek an answer outside of this must therefore indicate lack of understanding, and because of this, encouraging of speculation and inevitably coming upon a wrong answer. </p><p></p><p>======</p><p>Harry: I suppose my thinking is possibly incompatible with the whole concept of karma, but then that is because I follow a religion which, in my view, places no importance on karma whatsoever. I am more concerned with the effect my life has on the rest on Creation.</p><p></p><p>C: Your ideas I believe, comes from the concept of Hukam. </p><p>In Buddhism there is the Five Niyama or Cosmic Orders of which Moral Order is one. Karma is this Moral Order. This concept of Niyama is not given that much attention, perhaps because it is philosophical in exposition and therefore may lead the attention away from considering the present moment. It should not encourage proliferating into ideas about events happening in time; but it can be a basis for a correct attitude towards experience and the object of experience. And certainly not with the idea of control, but rather understand and detach. </p><p></p><p>I think you can have a similar attitude towards the concept of Hukam? And could not Hukam in fact include the Moral Order? Instead of events happening in time involving interaction between different beings and objects, cannot Hukam be understood by way of understanding the experience now? And there is ever only the “now” to be known and this is fleeting and therefore nothing that can be brought back in an attempt to look more into it. And why would you seek to understand other than what appears to the consciousness now? </p><p></p><p>What do you think Harry ji, is this possible without any conflict arising as result? </p><p></p><p>=====</p><p>Harry: Will I leave this earth better or worse for my presence, sounds egoistical, but is more to do with the knock on effect my actions have on the rest of Creation. That to me is important. </p><p></p><p>C: From where I stand, you are proliferating like crazy. </p><p></p><p>====</p><p></p><p>Quote:Confused: I’m not sure about this; you refer to “Universal Truth” yet talk as if this is relative when suggesting that you subscribe to one and I to another. But I’ll not debate this here. </p><p></p><p>Harry: I think there are truths, and there are universal truths. To a Hindu, his truth is his truth, but I do believe that there are universal truths which unite us all, be they Hindu, Sikh,</p><p> An example could be that it is wrong to rape a woman. </p><p></p><p>C: And why do you think this is? Because of the reality of the Moral Order / Karma!! ;-)</p><p>But of course, it comes down to mental phenomena such as attachment and the nature of attachment. </p><p></p><p>I’ll not comment on the part about Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist truths, except that anyone who has even a little understanding about “Truth” will not make the kind of suggestion.</p><p></p><p>====</p><p>Quote:Anyway, according to Buddhism, there are four stages of enlightenment, each having eradicated particular set of unwholesome tendencies. The first and the second stages have no more wrong understanding, doubt, envy and miserliness, and therefore if they happen to be householders, still live the life with sensuous attachments, hence some degree of excitement. Only at the third and fourth stages are there no more attachment to sense objects and therefore no excitement towards anything.</p><p></p><p>Harry: I am not sure I wish to live my life like this, It is idealistic,</p><p></p><p>C: Well you can't even if you wanted to. Indeed it won't happen precisely because you *want* to. So really it is only a game conditioned by ignorance and desire, making this into an ideal and then rejecting it.</p><p></p><p>====</p><p>Harry: I find Sikhism offers a more realistic path, a combination of the spiritual and the worldly,</p><p></p><p>C: You mean what you read into Sikhism.</p><p>You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to be able to make a statement about the wrongness of desire but at the same time also to feel justified in encouraging it. </p><p></p><p>Desire is wrong in all its manifestations, but it is not going to go away. So like I said, you will have it for a long, long time to come. But if you actually think desire is good at some level, whatever you state about its wrongness in other forms is just desire doing the talking and another object for it to feed on. In short, the distinction between spiritual and worldly and all the implications you put into this, is just ignorance and desire playing games. Desire gobbles everything and wants to be praised for it.</p><p></p><p>====</p><p>Harry: I can find the state you describe through drugs,</p><p></p><p>C: Reminds me of Carlos Castaneda and his perverted ideas.</p><p></p><p>====</p><p>Harry: I do not want this, I want to enjoy the smell of cut grass, the smile on a babys face, I want to feel attracted to my wife, to enjoy polishing my car, to laugh at a good comedy, but also to know thr truth, and to know what it means to live, not some day, not when I am enlightened, but now, today, right now.</p><p></p><p>C: It is fine and fair if you want to enjoy life. This would be an honest statement with regard to where you are at. I seek pleasure too, all the time. However I don't go on to believe that this seeking of pleasure is good, but you on the other hand, appear to do this. So as far as I'm concerned, for you to state that you want to know the Truth, this is not convincing at all. Sorry.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 163622, member: 586"] Harry ji, This is probably the longest post ever on SPN. Sorry if it turns out to be a burden for you. ==== Harry: Faith in such a system would shake my very foundations and force me to abandon the path I am on at present. C: I suspect that your understanding about faith is different from mine. Faith as it is generally used is more about belief in something that has not been tested and proven and perhaps used as a working hypothesis. What I'm talking about on the other hand is almost the opposite of this. But first let me say a little about the two kinds of faith that I know to exist as a mental factor, and which arises only with wholesome states. The first is with reference to all kinds of good. For example one gives when otherwise one might have held tightly to one's possessions, this is reflection of faith / confidence in giving. The second kind of faith is with reference to the development of understanding. It is confidence in the function of understanding and what is understood thereby. This includes the knowledge of what causes continued existence and the path (understanding itself) leading out of this. With regard to karma, the confidence is of this second kind. Understanding Karma begins at the intellectual level, with reference to the idea of moral cause and effect. This leads to the study of different mental states and actually beginning to recognize which of these states are cause and which are resultants, and also as these manifest in the conventional world. Karma is the “intention” which arises with all volitional actions, be this mental, verbal or physical. It is with increased understanding of these volitional actions and differentiating them from resultant consciousness that confidence in karma comes about. It has nothing to do with thinking about some action now and belief that this will lead to some result in the future, but rather understanding an aspect with regard to the nature of the present moment. I believe that your conception of karma involves some story concerning, the past, the present and the future and this may be the problem. ===== Harry: As you must know, we all have to follow our path, and if and when the time is right, another path will suddenly make sense, at present the path of Karma is incompatible with my beliefs, but that is not to say it does not exist. C: I don’t think in terms of persons following different paths. I may have a general idea about you following Sikhi and I following Buddhism, but when I respond, I do not think about this. Your characterizing what I have been saying as “path of Karma” is rather strange. I consider it the path of understanding the Truth, the Four Noble Truths to be precise. Indeed understanding itself is the Fourth of these Truths and sometimes called the Truth of the Path. Karma on the other hand is covered by the First and Second Truths. You are perhaps thinking that I am encouraging the use of the concept of karma, as guide to action, one which requires thinking in terms of cause and effect happening in time. But as I explained earlier, understanding karma being all about now, leads to less thinking in terms of the past and the future. And it is not that *believing* in Karma leads to better understanding of what is now. However on the other hand if there is rejection of the concept, this must be due to a wrong understanding about “now”. So in fact it all comes down to whether one is coming from a right understanding or wrong understanding with regard to one’s moment to moment experiences. If it is the former, then one will believe in Karma and if it is the latter, rejecting karma is one possible symptom, which will then only make things worse. I can understand if someone believed in a controlling God why they might reject Karma. But you Harry ji, do not have this conception, so this particular problem is not there. But of course there is deeper problem, but you will not be aware of this. It is the problem of “self-view” one which is characterized by the tendency to look beyond the present moment for the answer to the question of cause and effect. We can discuss this if you like. In the meantime I would appreciate any explanation as to why you think that belief in karma is incompatible with your present set of beliefs. ==== Quote: Confused: You are saying that belief in past and future lives detracts from the importance of understanding this life, but the fact is that this happens due to causes other than the belief itself. And if you fail to identify the real cause and continue to give the wrong reason, invariably the same mental phenomena will influence your own thinking. A belief can be the result of ignorance or of understanding. If it is ignorance, almost invariably there is wrong understanding and attachment accompanying, and if it is understanding, attachment can arise afterwards, but not necessary. The problem is ignorance, attachment and wrong understanding. Harry: I have had to read the above several times in order to come up with a suitable answer, i can certainly see the sense in the whole karma argument, I suppose if I delved into it a bit more, I might even believe in it, however, I put faith in Guruji, it is a bit like distance healing, or prayer for the sick, they are most wonderful concepts and very attractive to believe in, as is karma, but the jist I am getting from the people I would call Guruji, all 11 of them, is that such paths are just circular, they are entertaining, but you end up just going round and round, C: Something must be blocking my view, but if you can Harry ji, please explain how belief in karma as I've tried to explain the concept, is a circular path. Or perhaps the problem is that you have wrongly made it into a “path”, something I did not suggest? ==== Harry: Guruji has saved me much time by outlining which paths bear fruit and which do not, as such, I feel that these paths do not lead to enlightenment and Mukti. C: Guru Nanak did teach a path, but I don't believe that he would have suggested that it is easy or that it is short cut, given his understanding as to the extent of ignorance and attachment in everyone. The perception that one life is enough for anyone to become liberated comes I think, from his more ambitious and deluded followers. The cause must match the result projected. If you think that any person can be liberated in a matter of 20, 30, 60 or 80 years, please tell me what you see as being the cause leading to this? ====== Harry: I am unfamiliar with this concept, all my life I have known when I was doing something bad, or something good, and I have done plenty bad, but I never put myself under the illusion it was good. C: Are you trying to convince me that every time that a bad intention arose, you knew of its existence but still went ahead to follow its lead? Anyway, if it was in fact wisdom which arose to know it, this would have lead rather, to not follow the intention, otherwise why even call it wisdom? ====== Quote: I’m not sure what Edmund Burke has in mind, but if he is suggesting a proactive approach, I consider it very wrong, since it would be coming from within maya / the world and its values. It is the thinking of the social activist and not of a religious person. Harry: I do not think he was talking about being proactive, because that does beg the question what is good and what is bad, I like to think of that quote being a bit more obvious, say walking past a robbery, a rape, a crime and doing nothing. C: I must say that such attitude really puts me off. Any degree of self-examination would reveal the existence of so much defilements. But even if the person was saintly, he’d sympathize with others who he knows to be still mired in ignorance and attachment. This is because he would understand what it means to be in the situation, which he too was in and took a long, long time to get out of. Have you not observed that when you do any wrong, (and remember “justification man”); if it is not wishing not to be found out, that at least your wrong be forgiven and that you are given a second (and third, and fourth and fifth) chance? Why is it then that we are so quick to play the police with regard to other people’s wrong actions? A saintly person has kindness towards everyone, not only the victim in a given situation. If he acts, it is not with the kind of perception that you appear to have. Indeed he may feel compassion more towards the aggressor, since he knows that that person's action is one which will lead to the experience of bad results. He does not play the karma police, but instead understands that whatever happens does so by conditions beyond control, such that whether he intervened or not, no one knows what is going to happen down the road. This conditions calm as opposed to the agitation which must necessarily exist when following E. Burke’s suggestion, who I think, would have been better off had he considered the lesson Jesus Christ was giving when he said, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone….” ===== Quote: Besides what is it to win over evil out there? Is not hatred won by kindness, miserliness by generosity, envy by sympathetic joy, immorality by morality, ignorance by wisdom and so on? Harry: I am not sure about this, I find hatred is won over by understanding, miserliness by understanding, envy etc etc, C: You mean no kindness, generosity or sympathetic joy need to arise toward the other person at some point? What state exactly would be directed towards the other person? ==== Harry: I think it is all understanding, otherwise you run the risk of being taken for a fool, a mug, unless people truly understand there is no hope, how to provide that understanding is possibly a bigger question, but I am not sure it is by being a kind generous moral person. C: First, do you suppose that these states can be made to come about by will and that anyone at all will have it? Two, what kind of understanding are you referring to? Is it the kind which involves thinking and trying to assess a situation, one which does not necessarily involve awareness of one's intentions and understanding the difference between good and evil states? If so, this and not what you have identified, is reflection of a “fool”. Fool, is the person who does not see the value of good and harm of evil. It is nothing to do with being judged by others as such or as gullible. Earlier you had agreed that good deeds are done for their own sake, but now you appear to add conditions. ==== Harry: This is where the Karma issue creeps in, you are looking at it from a much bigger picture than I am. C: Not really, you are looking beyond the present moment and thinking in terms of situations, and project that I am having thoughts that extend over a large area. But in fact I have all along, tried to encourage not moving away from the present moment. ==== Quote:That said, of course good intentions can arise and we should not waste any opportunity to do good, however these need not be preceded or followed by conceit and attachment. The motivation need not involve the kind of judgement which contrasts one group of people with another. Should kindness after all differentiate between this or that persons, if this in fact does happen, would that not indicate attachment and aversion rather than kindness? Harry: I think that good intentions, kindness and the oppertunity to do good should be carried out with extreme care and caution. C: I wonder if your objection arises in part, as result of your own wrong characterization of what I've been saying, re: 'path of Karma' instead of 'path of understanding'? Anyway, the “any opportunity” in my comment above, does include whatever else that is needed for the act to be carried out. The encouragement should not be read as suggesting being impulsive. On the other hand however, it appears that your objection comes from being inclined toward the suggestion that there’d be times when kindness is not appropriate? If so, I’d suggest that this is not the kind of perception associated with any level of wisdom. It is hard enough that any kindness arise at all, harder still for wisdom to do so and see kindness for what it is. Also not all moments of kindness is accompanied by the necessary zeal and energy in order that the act is carried out. All this is known by wisdom which then seeks to encourage these necessary supports. It may be that an act of kindness is not preceded by careful consideration of the situation. But this is a different problem and not an excuse to discourage kindness. One perhaps will need to develop other good qualities, but to think that kindness is not called for is wrong thinking. After all kindness can arise but one may hesitate to act it out due to other considerations. But this is not the same as saying that kindness is not needed. It can be there and its value acknowledged, and ready to be expressed when the situation demands. ==== Harry: I feel there is a huge risk of being manipulated and for the wrong people to be given this, better to help someone who will benefit, than somone who it will corrupt, that is where logic and thinking comes into it. C: You are of course right that it is better to give to someone with virtue than to someone without (conventionally speaking). And also that some people will become spoilt and try to manipulate. But this is about giving, not about kindness, and giving material help and not say, the gift of truth and the necessary zeal and energy required for this to happen. So one might say with regard to the corrupt, that in fact kindness is called for even more. Logic and thinking is helpful only if supported by understanding. A shrewd businessman for example thinks from all sides, but only to his own advantage and because of this, is not “wise” at all. And if the thinking is in fact associated with wisdom, you are actually talking about that which would also see the value in generosity and kindness. So it is not like one will go against the inclination of the other. Indeed it may come down only to how best the kindness and generosity be expressed and not to whether to express it or not. What do you think? ==== Quote:Confused: Attachment to self is rooted in ignorance and when one “believes” in doing the right thing, wrong understanding may be the driving force. This comes across to the person as right, which means that the real motivations are hidden. It takes wisdom to know what the reality is at the moment, and if this does not happen, how can we be sure that what arose was in fact a wholesome or an unwholesome state of mind. Harry: We can be sure, as a Sikh, by reading and understanding Bani, which in my view, provides all the wisdom one needs to make the best decisions one can. Not blindly, but decisions made on the basis of intelligence, wisdom, discretion. C: So what is it about, your wisdom arisen to understand what the reality is now, or following someone else's suggestions? Can you give an example of what it means to read the Bani and following its suggestions *with wisdom*? ====== Harry: I believe in Creator and Creation, so the effect of my actions on Creation is of huge interest to me. C: I’ve seen you and Ambarsaria ji give so much importance to the particular idea, one which I recognize as having elements of Taoism and some western mysticism. I will not be surprised that you will not find the same implications, expressed anywhere in the Siri Guru Granth. And as you know, this is very far from my own position. The Buddha once gave a simile of the man shot by an arrow who will not allow medical help unless he first knew who shot the arrow, where he lived, his family, what wood the arrow was made, what wood the bow, etc. This man would therefore die before he came to know the answers. The message here is not so much that he is wasting precious time, but rather that his is a wrong line of enquiry. If there is any penetration into the nature of the present moment experience, it will be seen that all the causes and conditions reside in that very moment. To seek an answer outside of this must therefore indicate lack of understanding, and because of this, encouraging of speculation and inevitably coming upon a wrong answer. ====== Harry: I suppose my thinking is possibly incompatible with the whole concept of karma, but then that is because I follow a religion which, in my view, places no importance on karma whatsoever. I am more concerned with the effect my life has on the rest on Creation. C: Your ideas I believe, comes from the concept of Hukam. In Buddhism there is the Five Niyama or Cosmic Orders of which Moral Order is one. Karma is this Moral Order. This concept of Niyama is not given that much attention, perhaps because it is philosophical in exposition and therefore may lead the attention away from considering the present moment. It should not encourage proliferating into ideas about events happening in time; but it can be a basis for a correct attitude towards experience and the object of experience. And certainly not with the idea of control, but rather understand and detach. I think you can have a similar attitude towards the concept of Hukam? And could not Hukam in fact include the Moral Order? Instead of events happening in time involving interaction between different beings and objects, cannot Hukam be understood by way of understanding the experience now? And there is ever only the “now” to be known and this is fleeting and therefore nothing that can be brought back in an attempt to look more into it. And why would you seek to understand other than what appears to the consciousness now? What do you think Harry ji, is this possible without any conflict arising as result? ===== Harry: Will I leave this earth better or worse for my presence, sounds egoistical, but is more to do with the knock on effect my actions have on the rest of Creation. That to me is important. C: From where I stand, you are proliferating like crazy. ==== Quote:Confused: I’m not sure about this; you refer to “Universal Truth” yet talk as if this is relative when suggesting that you subscribe to one and I to another. But I’ll not debate this here. Harry: I think there are truths, and there are universal truths. To a Hindu, his truth is his truth, but I do believe that there are universal truths which unite us all, be they Hindu, Sikh, An example could be that it is wrong to rape a woman. C: And why do you think this is? Because of the reality of the Moral Order / Karma!! ;-) But of course, it comes down to mental phenomena such as attachment and the nature of attachment. I’ll not comment on the part about Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist truths, except that anyone who has even a little understanding about “Truth” will not make the kind of suggestion. ==== Quote:Anyway, according to Buddhism, there are four stages of enlightenment, each having eradicated particular set of unwholesome tendencies. The first and the second stages have no more wrong understanding, doubt, envy and miserliness, and therefore if they happen to be householders, still live the life with sensuous attachments, hence some degree of excitement. Only at the third and fourth stages are there no more attachment to sense objects and therefore no excitement towards anything. Harry: I am not sure I wish to live my life like this, It is idealistic, C: Well you can't even if you wanted to. Indeed it won't happen precisely because you *want* to. So really it is only a game conditioned by ignorance and desire, making this into an ideal and then rejecting it. ==== Harry: I find Sikhism offers a more realistic path, a combination of the spiritual and the worldly, C: You mean what you read into Sikhism. You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to be able to make a statement about the wrongness of desire but at the same time also to feel justified in encouraging it. Desire is wrong in all its manifestations, but it is not going to go away. So like I said, you will have it for a long, long time to come. But if you actually think desire is good at some level, whatever you state about its wrongness in other forms is just desire doing the talking and another object for it to feed on. In short, the distinction between spiritual and worldly and all the implications you put into this, is just ignorance and desire playing games. Desire gobbles everything and wants to be praised for it. ==== Harry: I can find the state you describe through drugs, C: Reminds me of Carlos Castaneda and his perverted ideas. ==== Harry: I do not want this, I want to enjoy the smell of cut grass, the smile on a babys face, I want to feel attracted to my wife, to enjoy polishing my car, to laugh at a good comedy, but also to know thr truth, and to know what it means to live, not some day, not when I am enlightened, but now, today, right now. C: It is fine and fair if you want to enjoy life. This would be an honest statement with regard to where you are at. I seek pleasure too, all the time. However I don't go on to believe that this seeking of pleasure is good, but you on the other hand, appear to do this. So as far as I'm concerned, for you to state that you want to know the Truth, this is not convincing at all. Sorry. [/QUOTE]
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