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Gurbani (14-53)
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Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
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Gurbani (537-556)
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Ghoriaan (575-578)
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Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
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Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
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Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
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Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
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Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 163295" data-attributes="member: 586"><p>Harry ji,</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is going to be a long post since many thoughts are running through my head. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But remember, although it happens more often that a person believes in past lives and this leads him to seeing things a particular way, it can also be the other way round. Based on some degree of understanding and after hearing about the Truth, certain observations are made here and now which point to the fact that there must have been experiences accumulated from way in the past and that this must continue on indefinitely until and unless one becomes fully enlightened. This is because at this point, the fire completely burns out due to the fact that the fuel for continued existence has run out. It can be seen also, that in the meantime not only there exists so much fuel, but more and more is being added due to particular kind of experiences, and these can't just disappear with the conventional death of this living being. In other words, the causes and conditions for the reduction of fuel is one thing and that of its increase is another, and what is taking place from moment to moment is the latter. Besides, when we try to fit everything in terms of this life alone, this invariably involves the kind of perceptions and understandings which are clearly wrong.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am glad to hear you say that it is not a Sikhi yardstick, since what you express appears to be all about “self”. No doubt there must be some kindness and generosity involved, but then ambition and conceit come in to direct the show. </p><p></p><p>For people who have some appreciation of good and see the need to encourage this, there is what is called, “cheating states”, thirty or so of them. These are states that come across to the person as progress along the path of good but in fact is not. They arise invariably in those who make it a point to develop morality, concentration and and so on, but instead of any understanding, are motivated by attachment and wrong understanding and the result is delusion.</p><p></p><p>Know that attachment is around the corner, ready to pounce on everything including good deeds. Wrong understanding is the worst of mental phenomena which arises very often in those who follow one religion or another and manifested in the idea of being a “good person”. Conceit and attachment to being good and doing good is what such a person has in the place of attachments to sensuous objects and is apparent when he is busy pointing out other people's wrong. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Can you elaborate on this “deathlike living”? I have no idea as to what you are pointing at and how you draw this from what I wrote.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Moderation in my book is in fact, “understanding attachment”. Understanding when it arises knows the nature of attachment and in that performs its function. If there is the idea that “one” has to practice moderation and the reference include doing this and avoiding that in order that particular results will follow, this again is yet another misperception and placing oneself to be fooled by some cheating state. After all, either there is understanding at that very moment or there is not. </p><p></p><p>To think in terms of “doing something” in order to achieve something else clearly shows that at that moment itself, there is no understanding of the object of consciousness nor is there detachment. In other words, either one understands the attachment “now” and by virtue of this, experience a degree of detachment, or else one thinks “about” attachment with ignorance and a desire to do something about it. </p><p></p><p>And Harry ji, you say that you do not believe in karma, so I question your understanding when you say “embrace moderation and understand the nature of consequences”. If karma is the law of moral cause and effect and you do not believe in it, your cause and effect must from this perspective, then involve distortion in perception and in understanding. Perhaps you will give an example so that we can discuss this further? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The way you are thinking about these things is problematic although understandable given that you have yet to understand experiences in terms of impersonal phenomena rising and falling away one moment at a time.</p><p></p><p>It is the mental factor of wisdom / right understanding which performs the necessary function and is encouraged. When ignorance arises, it is this which obscures the Truth. Likewise, attachment, aversion, kindness, perception, feeling, morality etc. these are mental phenomena performing each, their unique functions. When one thinks in terms of a “me” who needs to do this or that in order that something else happens, this again is due to a mental factor, which in this case is “thinking”. In reality there is no entity standing apart from these mental phenomena and therefore when there is a belief otherwise, this must in fact be the mental factor "wrong view" or 'wrong understanding' performing its function.</p><p></p><p>“Submission to the vices” is not a good way to look at it. First, this is suggestive of the idea that there is someone who stands apart from these mental phenomena and can decide one way or another, what to do. Second, we understand that the tendencies to the vices remain and are not going to go away anytime soon. However, it is not something that should be encouraged, but what should be are wisdom and other kinds of good. And it is because of wisdom that when the vices do arise, we not become averse, feel guilty or jump to do something about it, since these would be instances of encouraging other kinds of wrong and therefore only make things worse.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But the idea “truthful living” too can easily become the object of attachment and wrong understanding. ;-) </p><p></p><p>You see the solution is not in placing one idea next to another and seeing which one is more correct. It all comes back to what is happening “now”. While someone who is thinking in terms of enlightenment may at that very moment understand what in fact is at the root of the thinking. Another may see the error of such thinking in the other person by way of reasoning, but not however know the attachment that has arisen to drive that reasoning. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I recognize the idea, it is encouraged in certain other philosophies I remember reading about many years ago. You are a drop of water representing the ocean, so you reason that the former can't then be seeking approval from the latter. It strives instead to understand this through the process of understanding itself. And you acknowledge the possibility of other set of problems, tackled by way of accepting one's own limitations. But I wonder where the concept of “creator” fits into this?</p><p></p><p>Anyway from where I stand and related to my previous comment, these are all in the realm of ideas where one thought is used to deal with another. You postulate something and go from there. But how you arrived at the idea about ocean and drop of water, I wonder if this has been questioned in light of the fact that it is motivated either by understanding or by ignorance? If the latter, then not only will those problems you have identified arise, but also many others. And with 'creator' can you really avoid approval seeking manifested in one form or another?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Are you saying that if you believed in Karma, that this will lead you to less concern about those you love? </p><p></p><p>Well first, it is not about “believing”, but “understanding”. Second, attachment is not going to go away with less than full enlightenment. Third, if you see the value of kindness of which attachment is the near enemy, you’d want to replace the attachments you have towards those around you with this. And this won't even happen to any degree, and you will no doubt continue experiencing attachment towards these people. </p><p></p><p>No Harry ji, sort out your thoughts and tell us what the real reason is for your not believing in Karma. ;-)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have no doubt about this, given all that you have written. And I am happy for both of you that this is the case. True wealth is not measured by the “result” of karma as in good experiences through the five senses, but the accumulation and tendency to good deeds. The former is what every Tom, **** and Harry ;-) is after, as manifested in their search for wealth, fame and happiness. The latter is in those who see the value of good deeds, which besides, must also bear fruit in the future. </p><p></p><p>More wealthy still is wisdom, the kind which is not moved by the Eight Worldly Conditions of pleasure / pain, gain / loss, praise / blame and status / disgrace. Rich or poor, without wisdom, all get pushed around by these forces, either by attachment towards the positive, or with aversion towards the negative ones. In the end, the difference between those who have and those who don't may not really be that much anyway, when taking into account what actually happens from moment to moment. So really, it all comes down to the difference in the effect of ignorance vs. understanding.</p><p></p><p>From one perspective the quest for wealth is about power. It is a way to gain freedom and control and to not be controlled. But ignorance is what is actually present, including of the fact that the real enemies and cause for being bound is one's own attachment and conceit. And when all this is then made into a philosophy of life, the bind becomes even stronger due to the presence of wrong understanding.</p><p></p><p>One who is involved in good deeds is at least 'free' during those instances that good intentions arise, because at those times, the mind is without ignorance. And when there is some level of wisdom and this has become the aim, one actually begins to break those bonds, though very gradually. So in fact, only a good person has had a taste of freedom and only a wise person understands what real freedom is.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, it is my experience too. But I would like to share one thing I only very recently heard about and wished at the time, that I’d known about it much earlier.</p><p></p><p>It is a practice amongst some Thai people, that they do not become involved in other people's stories about their sufferings. The idea is not to interfere with other people's karma (which I don't quite understand exactly what is meant). But one thing I got from this is that people being self-centered, unfairly draw other people to be involved in their sorrows when they should in fact be keeping it to themselves. Now the other person being ignorant and having still so much attachment and aversion, react automatically with these, sometimes feeling guilty for no reason and sometimes feeling pity ( often mistaken for compassion). And this is not a good situation for all concerned. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But you see the effect of self-view?</p><p>In comparing yourself with a drop of water in the ocean you are influenced by an eternalistic view. Since in fact the drop never was separated from the ocean, therefore at death it never really disappears. But then there is also the inclination toward the annihilationist view which says that what remains is dust or worm food. These are two extremes, while the correct vision is from the Middle, not between, but above. And this is very difficult to happen…..</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 163295, member: 586"] Harry ji, This is going to be a long post since many thoughts are running through my head. But remember, although it happens more often that a person believes in past lives and this leads him to seeing things a particular way, it can also be the other way round. Based on some degree of understanding and after hearing about the Truth, certain observations are made here and now which point to the fact that there must have been experiences accumulated from way in the past and that this must continue on indefinitely until and unless one becomes fully enlightened. This is because at this point, the fire completely burns out due to the fact that the fuel for continued existence has run out. It can be seen also, that in the meantime not only there exists so much fuel, but more and more is being added due to particular kind of experiences, and these can't just disappear with the conventional death of this living being. In other words, the causes and conditions for the reduction of fuel is one thing and that of its increase is another, and what is taking place from moment to moment is the latter. Besides, when we try to fit everything in terms of this life alone, this invariably involves the kind of perceptions and understandings which are clearly wrong. I am glad to hear you say that it is not a Sikhi yardstick, since what you express appears to be all about “self”. No doubt there must be some kindness and generosity involved, but then ambition and conceit come in to direct the show. For people who have some appreciation of good and see the need to encourage this, there is what is called, “cheating states”, thirty or so of them. These are states that come across to the person as progress along the path of good but in fact is not. They arise invariably in those who make it a point to develop morality, concentration and and so on, but instead of any understanding, are motivated by attachment and wrong understanding and the result is delusion. Know that attachment is around the corner, ready to pounce on everything including good deeds. Wrong understanding is the worst of mental phenomena which arises very often in those who follow one religion or another and manifested in the idea of being a “good person”. Conceit and attachment to being good and doing good is what such a person has in the place of attachments to sensuous objects and is apparent when he is busy pointing out other people's wrong. Can you elaborate on this “deathlike living”? I have no idea as to what you are pointing at and how you draw this from what I wrote. Moderation in my book is in fact, “understanding attachment”. Understanding when it arises knows the nature of attachment and in that performs its function. If there is the idea that “one” has to practice moderation and the reference include doing this and avoiding that in order that particular results will follow, this again is yet another misperception and placing oneself to be fooled by some cheating state. After all, either there is understanding at that very moment or there is not. To think in terms of “doing something” in order to achieve something else clearly shows that at that moment itself, there is no understanding of the object of consciousness nor is there detachment. In other words, either one understands the attachment “now” and by virtue of this, experience a degree of detachment, or else one thinks “about” attachment with ignorance and a desire to do something about it. And Harry ji, you say that you do not believe in karma, so I question your understanding when you say “embrace moderation and understand the nature of consequences”. If karma is the law of moral cause and effect and you do not believe in it, your cause and effect must from this perspective, then involve distortion in perception and in understanding. Perhaps you will give an example so that we can discuss this further? The way you are thinking about these things is problematic although understandable given that you have yet to understand experiences in terms of impersonal phenomena rising and falling away one moment at a time. It is the mental factor of wisdom / right understanding which performs the necessary function and is encouraged. When ignorance arises, it is this which obscures the Truth. Likewise, attachment, aversion, kindness, perception, feeling, morality etc. these are mental phenomena performing each, their unique functions. When one thinks in terms of a “me” who needs to do this or that in order that something else happens, this again is due to a mental factor, which in this case is “thinking”. In reality there is no entity standing apart from these mental phenomena and therefore when there is a belief otherwise, this must in fact be the mental factor "wrong view" or 'wrong understanding' performing its function. “Submission to the vices” is not a good way to look at it. First, this is suggestive of the idea that there is someone who stands apart from these mental phenomena and can decide one way or another, what to do. Second, we understand that the tendencies to the vices remain and are not going to go away anytime soon. However, it is not something that should be encouraged, but what should be are wisdom and other kinds of good. And it is because of wisdom that when the vices do arise, we not become averse, feel guilty or jump to do something about it, since these would be instances of encouraging other kinds of wrong and therefore only make things worse. But the idea “truthful living” too can easily become the object of attachment and wrong understanding. ;-) You see the solution is not in placing one idea next to another and seeing which one is more correct. It all comes back to what is happening “now”. While someone who is thinking in terms of enlightenment may at that very moment understand what in fact is at the root of the thinking. Another may see the error of such thinking in the other person by way of reasoning, but not however know the attachment that has arisen to drive that reasoning. I recognize the idea, it is encouraged in certain other philosophies I remember reading about many years ago. You are a drop of water representing the ocean, so you reason that the former can't then be seeking approval from the latter. It strives instead to understand this through the process of understanding itself. And you acknowledge the possibility of other set of problems, tackled by way of accepting one's own limitations. But I wonder where the concept of “creator” fits into this? Anyway from where I stand and related to my previous comment, these are all in the realm of ideas where one thought is used to deal with another. You postulate something and go from there. But how you arrived at the idea about ocean and drop of water, I wonder if this has been questioned in light of the fact that it is motivated either by understanding or by ignorance? If the latter, then not only will those problems you have identified arise, but also many others. And with 'creator' can you really avoid approval seeking manifested in one form or another? Are you saying that if you believed in Karma, that this will lead you to less concern about those you love? Well first, it is not about “believing”, but “understanding”. Second, attachment is not going to go away with less than full enlightenment. Third, if you see the value of kindness of which attachment is the near enemy, you’d want to replace the attachments you have towards those around you with this. And this won't even happen to any degree, and you will no doubt continue experiencing attachment towards these people. No Harry ji, sort out your thoughts and tell us what the real reason is for your not believing in Karma. ;-) I have no doubt about this, given all that you have written. And I am happy for both of you that this is the case. True wealth is not measured by the “result” of karma as in good experiences through the five senses, but the accumulation and tendency to good deeds. The former is what every Tom, **** and Harry ;-) is after, as manifested in their search for wealth, fame and happiness. The latter is in those who see the value of good deeds, which besides, must also bear fruit in the future. More wealthy still is wisdom, the kind which is not moved by the Eight Worldly Conditions of pleasure / pain, gain / loss, praise / blame and status / disgrace. Rich or poor, without wisdom, all get pushed around by these forces, either by attachment towards the positive, or with aversion towards the negative ones. In the end, the difference between those who have and those who don't may not really be that much anyway, when taking into account what actually happens from moment to moment. So really, it all comes down to the difference in the effect of ignorance vs. understanding. From one perspective the quest for wealth is about power. It is a way to gain freedom and control and to not be controlled. But ignorance is what is actually present, including of the fact that the real enemies and cause for being bound is one's own attachment and conceit. And when all this is then made into a philosophy of life, the bind becomes even stronger due to the presence of wrong understanding. One who is involved in good deeds is at least 'free' during those instances that good intentions arise, because at those times, the mind is without ignorance. And when there is some level of wisdom and this has become the aim, one actually begins to break those bonds, though very gradually. So in fact, only a good person has had a taste of freedom and only a wise person understands what real freedom is. Yes, it is my experience too. But I would like to share one thing I only very recently heard about and wished at the time, that I’d known about it much earlier. It is a practice amongst some Thai people, that they do not become involved in other people's stories about their sufferings. The idea is not to interfere with other people's karma (which I don't quite understand exactly what is meant). But one thing I got from this is that people being self-centered, unfairly draw other people to be involved in their sorrows when they should in fact be keeping it to themselves. Now the other person being ignorant and having still so much attachment and aversion, react automatically with these, sometimes feeling guilty for no reason and sometimes feeling pity ( often mistaken for compassion). And this is not a good situation for all concerned. But you see the effect of self-view? In comparing yourself with a drop of water in the ocean you are influenced by an eternalistic view. Since in fact the drop never was separated from the ocean, therefore at death it never really disappears. But then there is also the inclination toward the annihilationist view which says that what remains is dust or worm food. These are two extremes, while the correct vision is from the Middle, not between, but above. And this is very difficult to happen….. [/QUOTE]
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