☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Hard Talk
Women In Sikhi
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Naamsimiran" data-source="post: 157348" data-attributes="member: 16792"><p><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/members/navdeep88.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: green"><strong>Navdeep88</strong></span></a> Ji</p><p> </p><p>I found your post very interesting. I think there is a distinction to be made between Sikh philosophy and culture. I recall someone saying on SPN, that it is 'all culture' and someone else mentioned the 'ego'.</p><p> </p><p>I went to a lecture at Manchester University South Asian culture. Some of the issues that was discussed was that, sons are favored over boys because:</p><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">in India they inherit the property and land. Although the state/government passed laws so women would get a share (which also varied religiously as Muslims in fact already had a system where monies were shared, built into their religion). However even those these laws were passed, they were rarely upheld by the people.</li> </ul><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">in India (and in the UK etc), the dowry system, puts a huge strain on family's finance, so girls are seen as a 'burden' from the start.</li> </ul><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Also in India (a point not discussed in the lecture), especially as it has been invaded so man times, there is a in built fear of women being raped, as of course they were. This is linked to izzat. So again women are a burden. But not because families don't want girls and don't love their daughters, but the systems of dowry, inheritance and izzat, make it difficult for them to be the favored outcome. That fear of one's izzat stay, even when people moved to the UK or elsewhere.</li> </ul><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The way power structures work, women hold power as they get older in India. So new daughter-in-laws, have very little power, however as they get older and then become Mother-in laws themselves, they exert that power and some abuse it. Which is not really a healthy system. This system again stuck and attitudes transferred here in the UK/elsewhere.</li> </ul><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Indian/South Asian culture (not everywhere of course - point discussed in lecture), sons, especially when married according to tradition are suppose to support their parents and that relationship of mother/father and son, is suppose to be priority. This often means that the new wife is alienated.</li> </ul><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A more critical look: also very unfortunately, linked to power and the inheritance and abuse. When arrange marriages happen, especially in the UK where, women come in from India, the daughter-in-law is further seen as the 'other' and in some families holds even less power. The persons that hold the power tend to abuse it, esp the mother-in-laws. Also the relationship between the husband and wife may not always be great because the husband is suppose to take the parents side.</li> </ul><p>Obviously we have in fact moved forward, </p><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">as some people don't accept dowries.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">some don't abuse their power.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">people are realizing, it is not the women's fault if she gets raped (Inderjeet Kaur mentioned this point).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the argument of inheritance, becomes undone, as it is normally the elder son who inherits so there is in fact tension between the sons.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">some families share the wealth and treat daughters and sons equally.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the next generation hold different values and more equal attitudes.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">men do take the side of their wives.</li> </ul><p>Yet abuse and favoritism and male biased does exist. So the above points can't be dismissed. Plus it is important to see the pressures men face, </p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">due they want to be stuck in the middle between wife and parents, to name one.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If they don't agree with the male favoritism, how do they get alienated?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Are they viewed as being less of a man if they don't follow tradition?</li> </ul><p> Possible improvements?</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Don't have a dowry and don't accept one. Unless the dowry supports the women and man. i.e. new clothes for the women etc, financial support for both of them, where the women also has a say in what happens with the money.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Don't abuse your power, treat people as equal and with love.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Share property/wealth/land equally.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Teach boys/men and girls/women to truly know and be able to find a good mate they want to marry and be open and honest about it. Allow for mistakes and support those where marriages don't work, instead of alienating them or cutting them out of the community.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If arrange marriages do take place, let the partners get to know each other.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Marriages based on guilt and fear, is possible not the greatest starting point.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Encourage husbands and wives to build their relationship without parental biased.</li> </ul><p>Apologies if I made and mistakes in the above and I hope I have not been too long winded or offended anyone.</p><p></p><p>Comments welcome.</p><p></p><p> Sat Naam.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Naamsimiran, post: 157348, member: 16792"] [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/members/navdeep88.html"][COLOR=green][B]Navdeep88[/B][/COLOR][/URL] Ji I found your post very interesting. I think there is a distinction to be made between Sikh philosophy and culture. I recall someone saying on SPN, that it is 'all culture' and someone else mentioned the 'ego'. I went to a lecture at Manchester University South Asian culture. Some of the issues that was discussed was that, sons are favored over boys because: [LIST] [*]in India they inherit the property and land. Although the state/government passed laws so women would get a share (which also varied religiously as Muslims in fact already had a system where monies were shared, built into their religion). However even those these laws were passed, they were rarely upheld by the people. [/LIST] [LIST] [*]in India (and in the UK etc), the dowry system, puts a huge strain on family's finance, so girls are seen as a 'burden' from the start. [/LIST] [LIST] [*]Also in India (a point not discussed in the lecture), especially as it has been invaded so man times, there is a in built fear of women being raped, as of course they were. This is linked to izzat. So again women are a burden. But not because families don't want girls and don't love their daughters, but the systems of dowry, inheritance and izzat, make it difficult for them to be the favored outcome. That fear of one's izzat stay, even when people moved to the UK or elsewhere. [/LIST] [LIST] [*]The way power structures work, women hold power as they get older in India. So new daughter-in-laws, have very little power, however as they get older and then become Mother-in laws themselves, they exert that power and some abuse it. Which is not really a healthy system. This system again stuck and attitudes transferred here in the UK/elsewhere. [/LIST] [LIST] [*]Indian/South Asian culture (not everywhere of course - point discussed in lecture), sons, especially when married according to tradition are suppose to support their parents and that relationship of mother/father and son, is suppose to be priority. This often means that the new wife is alienated. [/LIST] [LIST] [*]A more critical look: also very unfortunately, linked to power and the inheritance and abuse. When arrange marriages happen, especially in the UK where, women come in from India, the daughter-in-law is further seen as the 'other' and in some families holds even less power. The persons that hold the power tend to abuse it, esp the mother-in-laws. Also the relationship between the husband and wife may not always be great because the husband is suppose to take the parents side. [/LIST] Obviously we have in fact moved forward, [LIST] [*]as some people don't accept dowries. [*]some don't abuse their power. [*]people are realizing, it is not the women's fault if she gets raped (Inderjeet Kaur mentioned this point). [*]the argument of inheritance, becomes undone, as it is normally the elder son who inherits so there is in fact tension between the sons. [*]some families share the wealth and treat daughters and sons equally. [*]the next generation hold different values and more equal attitudes. [*]men do take the side of their wives. [/LIST] Yet abuse and favoritism and male biased does exist. So the above points can't be dismissed. Plus it is important to see the pressures men face, [LIST] [*]due they want to be stuck in the middle between wife and parents, to name one. [*]If they don't agree with the male favoritism, how do they get alienated? [*]Are they viewed as being less of a man if they don't follow tradition? [/LIST] Possible improvements? [LIST] [*]Don't have a dowry and don't accept one. Unless the dowry supports the women and man. i.e. new clothes for the women etc, financial support for both of them, where the women also has a say in what happens with the money. [*]Don't abuse your power, treat people as equal and with love. [*]Share property/wealth/land equally. [*]Teach boys/men and girls/women to truly know and be able to find a good mate they want to marry and be open and honest about it. Allow for mistakes and support those where marriages don't work, instead of alienating them or cutting them out of the community. [*]If arrange marriages do take place, let the partners get to know each other. [*]Marriages based on guilt and fear, is possible not the greatest starting point. [*]Encourage husbands and wives to build their relationship without parental biased. [/LIST] Apologies if I made and mistakes in the above and I hope I have not been too long winded or offended anyone. Comments welcome. Sat Naam. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Hard Talk
Women In Sikhi
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top