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Hard Talk
Bachittar Natak
Why So Much Talk About Enemies?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ishna" data-source="post: 148624" data-attributes="member: 2709"><p>I can understand most references to enemies when "enemies" is a metaphor for the 5 thieves, Maya and Death.</p><p></p><p>The metaphorical meaning of poetry can only go so far before one begins to read into something a meaning which doesn't really belong. I struggle to see how to following stanzas of Chaupai can be interpreted as metaphor. I have used a variety of translations. If the meaning is lost to me due to translation I would appreciate some insight.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=2262" target="_blank">http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=2262</a> (I'm unsure of the name of the translator)</p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolDevanSpl'"><span style="color: Navy">ਅਬ ਰੱਛਾ ਮੇਰੀ ਤੁਮ ਕਰੋ ॥ ਸਿੱਖਯ ਉਬਾਰਿ ਅਸਿੱਖਯ ਸੱਘਰੋ ॥</span></span><span style="color: Navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: Navy"></span><span style="font-family: 'AnmolDevanSpl'"><span style="color: Navy">अब ्रछा मेरी तुम करो ॥ सि्खय उबारि असि्खय स्घरो ॥</span></span><span style="color: Navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: Navy">O Lord ! keep me now under Thy protection; protect my disciples and destroy my enemies;</span></p><p><span style="color: Navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: Navy"></span><span style="font-family: 'AnmolDevanSpl'"><span style="color: Navy">ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਜਿਤੇ ਉਠਵਤ ਉਤਪਾਤਾ ॥ ਸਕਲ ਮਲੇਛ ਕਰੋ ਰਣ ਘਾਤਾ ॥੩੯੬॥</span></span><span style="color: Navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: Navy"></span><span style="font-family: 'AnmolDevanSpl'"><span style="color: Navy">दुशट जिते उठवत उतपाता ॥ सकल मलेछ करो रण घाता ॥३९६॥</span></span><span style="color: Navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: Navy">All the villains creations outrage and all the infidels be destroyed in the battlefield.396.</span></p><p><span style="color: Navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: Navy"></span><span style="font-family: 'AnmolDevanSpl'"><span style="color: Navy">ਜੇ ਅਸਿਧੁਜ ਤਵ ਸ਼ਰਨੀ ਪਰੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਦੁਖਿਤ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਮਰੇ ॥</span></span><span style="color: Navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: Navy"></span><span style="font-family: 'AnmolDevanSpl'"><span style="color: Navy">जे असिधुज तव शरनी परे ॥ तिन के दुशट दुखित ह्वै मरे ॥</span></span><span style="color: Navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: Navy">O Supreme Destroyer ! those who sought Thy refuge, their enemies met painful death;</span></p><p><span style="color: Navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: Navy"></span><span style="font-family: 'AnmolDevanSpl'"><span style="color: Navy">ਪੁਰਖ ਜਵਨ ਪਗੁ ਪਰੇ ਤਿਹਾਰੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਤੁਮ ਸੰਕਟ ਸਭ ਟਾਰੇ ॥੩੯੭॥</span></span><span style="color: Navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: Navy"></span><span style="font-family: 'AnmolDevanSpl'"><span style="color: Navy">पुरख जवन पगु परे तिहारे ॥ तिन के तुम संकट सभ टारे ॥३९७॥</span></span><span style="color: Navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: Navy">The persons who fell at Thy Feet, Thou didst remove all their troubles.397.</span></p><p></p><p>Translation by Nikki-Guninder Kaur Singh:</p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">Grant me now Your protection,</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">Defend my Sikhs, attack my foes.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">The tyrants who brutalize,</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">Destroy them on the battlefield.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">Those who seek Your lap, You who carry the banner,</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">May their enemies die a terrible death.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">Those who bow at Your feet,</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">May all their troubles be expelled.</span></p><p></p><p>Translation and extrapolation by Bhai Harbhajan Singh Ji (Sydney)</p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen">O' Lord! Give me Your protection now. Protect me and save Your devoted (God-conscious) disciples and eliminate those antagonists (ego-centric people) who obstruct their path (of righteousness). Also destroy the mischievious and evil minded tyrants who cause pain and misery (to humanity) in battle.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen">O' Lord of the Sword (God), those mortals (devotees) who have sought your refuge and shelter, their (evil minded) foes (ultimately) suffer and die a miserable and painful death. Those mortals (devotees) who fall at Your feet (completely surrender themselves to Your will) You will remove all their anguish and troubles.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkGreen"></span></p><p>I'm not entirely sure of the translator here but I think its Sardar Harminderpal Singh Ji (Singapore):</p><p><span style="color: Indigo">Please, protect me now.</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">Those who follow You save, and those who do not, destroy them.</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">All the evil persons who come into being,</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">Fight with (take care) and destroy all such bad people.</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">O God, those`who seek Your refuge,</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">Their enemies die miserably - painfully.</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">Those who surrender at Your feet,</span></p><p><span style="color: Indigo">You remove all their afflictions - sufferings.</span></p><p></p><p>Please forgive any of my mistakes reproducing these.</p><p></p><p>Now, I can't be the only one who has trouble reading this and thinking these paragraphs refer to anything other than literal human beings.</p><p></p><p>I will admit that when I read these paragraphs I get filled with a feeling which is rather personal and embarrising. I feel empowered (egotistical) that I'm the one following the "right" God and that my God will "crush horribly" anyone who doesn't believe and gets in my way. I think that's how a lot of jihadist type people must feel. It's a pretty good feeling. But I'm pretty sure it's the WRONG feeling.</p><p></p><p>And to follow this with 5 stanzas of Anand Sahib? What the??</p><p></p><p>And if we some how do interpret this to mean the 5 Thieves, Gyani ji himself said we are to conquor them... why would we pray every day for what is essentially a part of our psyche to "die miserably and painfully"? I mean, I know there is kirpa in suffering because it can bring us closer to God but it seems a bit of a stretch to me to word it like this.</p><p></p><p>And entirely inconsistent with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There, I said it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ishna, post: 148624, member: 2709"] I can understand most references to enemies when "enemies" is a metaphor for the 5 thieves, Maya and Death. The metaphorical meaning of poetry can only go so far before one begins to read into something a meaning which doesn't really belong. I struggle to see how to following stanzas of Chaupai can be interpreted as metaphor. I have used a variety of translations. If the meaning is lost to me due to translation I would appreciate some insight. [URL]http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=2262[/URL] (I'm unsure of the name of the translator) [FONT=AnmolDevanSpl][COLOR=Navy]ਅਬ ਰੱਛਾ ਮੇਰੀ ਤੁਮ ਕਰੋ ॥ ਸਿੱਖਯ ਉਬਾਰਿ ਅਸਿੱਖਯ ਸੱਘਰੋ ॥[/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=Navy] [/COLOR][FONT=AnmolDevanSpl][COLOR=Navy]अब ्रछा मेरी तुम करो ॥ सि्खय उबारि असि्खय स्घरो ॥[/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=Navy] O Lord ! keep me now under Thy protection; protect my disciples and destroy my enemies; [/COLOR][FONT=AnmolDevanSpl][COLOR=Navy]ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਜਿਤੇ ਉਠਵਤ ਉਤਪਾਤਾ ॥ ਸਕਲ ਮਲੇਛ ਕਰੋ ਰਣ ਘਾਤਾ ॥੩੯੬॥[/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=Navy] [/COLOR][FONT=AnmolDevanSpl][COLOR=Navy]दुशट जिते उठवत उतपाता ॥ सकल मलेछ करो रण घाता ॥३९६॥[/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=Navy] All the villains creations outrage and all the infidels be destroyed in the battlefield.396. [/COLOR][FONT=AnmolDevanSpl][COLOR=Navy]ਜੇ ਅਸਿਧੁਜ ਤਵ ਸ਼ਰਨੀ ਪਰੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਦੁਖਿਤ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਮਰੇ ॥[/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=Navy] [/COLOR][FONT=AnmolDevanSpl][COLOR=Navy]जे असिधुज तव शरनी परे ॥ तिन के दुशट दुखित ह्वै मरे ॥[/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=Navy] O Supreme Destroyer ! those who sought Thy refuge, their enemies met painful death; [/COLOR][FONT=AnmolDevanSpl][COLOR=Navy]ਪੁਰਖ ਜਵਨ ਪਗੁ ਪਰੇ ਤਿਹਾਰੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਤੁਮ ਸੰਕਟ ਸਭ ਟਾਰੇ ॥੩੯੭॥[/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=Navy] [/COLOR][FONT=AnmolDevanSpl][COLOR=Navy]पुरख जवन पगु परे तिहारे ॥ तिन के तुम संकट सभ टारे ॥३९७॥[/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=Navy] The persons who fell at Thy Feet, Thou didst remove all their troubles.397.[/COLOR] Translation by Nikki-Guninder Kaur Singh: [COLOR=DarkRed]Grant me now Your protection, Defend my Sikhs, attack my foes. The tyrants who brutalize, Destroy them on the battlefield. Those who seek Your lap, You who carry the banner, May their enemies die a terrible death. Those who bow at Your feet, May all their troubles be expelled.[/COLOR] Translation and extrapolation by Bhai Harbhajan Singh Ji (Sydney) [COLOR=DarkGreen]O' Lord! Give me Your protection now. Protect me and save Your devoted (God-conscious) disciples and eliminate those antagonists (ego-centric people) who obstruct their path (of righteousness). Also destroy the mischievious and evil minded tyrants who cause pain and misery (to humanity) in battle. O' Lord of the Sword (God), those mortals (devotees) who have sought your refuge and shelter, their (evil minded) foes (ultimately) suffer and die a miserable and painful death. Those mortals (devotees) who fall at Your feet (completely surrender themselves to Your will) You will remove all their anguish and troubles. [/COLOR] I'm not entirely sure of the translator here but I think its Sardar Harminderpal Singh Ji (Singapore): [COLOR=Indigo]Please, protect me now. Those who follow You save, and those who do not, destroy them. All the evil persons who come into being, Fight with (take care) and destroy all such bad people. O God, those`who seek Your refuge, Their enemies die miserably - painfully. Those who surrender at Your feet, You remove all their afflictions - sufferings.[/COLOR] Please forgive any of my mistakes reproducing these. Now, I can't be the only one who has trouble reading this and thinking these paragraphs refer to anything other than literal human beings. I will admit that when I read these paragraphs I get filled with a feeling which is rather personal and embarrising. I feel empowered (egotistical) that I'm the one following the "right" God and that my God will "crush horribly" anyone who doesn't believe and gets in my way. I think that's how a lot of jihadist type people must feel. It's a pretty good feeling. But I'm pretty sure it's the WRONG feeling. And to follow this with 5 stanzas of Anand Sahib? What the?? And if we some how do interpret this to mean the 5 Thieves, Gyani ji himself said we are to conquor them... why would we pray every day for what is essentially a part of our psyche to "die miserably and painfully"? I mean, I know there is kirpa in suffering because it can bring us closer to God but it seems a bit of a stretch to me to word it like this. And entirely inconsistent with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There, I said it. [/QUOTE]
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Bachittar Natak
Why So Much Talk About Enemies?
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