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Who Is Closest To God?
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<blockquote data-quote="divine outpouring" data-source="post: 122597" data-attributes="member: 11219"><p><strong>my mother...and why...cause she had to raise me!</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>asking a person; who is the greatest person that ever lived is like asking someone what their favourite colour is and then asking them to justify it. It is a type of question that will never reach a universal consensus but would simply project an individual’s taste.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>I see where you’re coming from but I don’t quite agree. Comparing favourite colours is a much less fruitful activity as it doesn’t really help anyone on the path of guidance. It is quite a superficial thing to do. Also, there is little shared ground between colours, such that you can’t really say anything else except that they’re different. When comparing people it is much more apparent that there is shared ground, in that we can ask, “who was the most generous?” or, “who was the most courageous?”, and that this shared ground is useful in that it allows us to compare in an ordinal way. </p><p></p><p><strong>why do you wish to ask something so personal?</strong></p><p></p><p>I would like to know who Sikhs believe is the greatest person / people to have lived. I want to know the reasons for their personal decision, as I would like to use their standards to look at other figures and see why they are not considered greater than whoever they consider to be great. That’s it.</p><p></p><p><strong>Here is my problem with the discussion so far, and the reason why I do not plan to continue in it until this problem is resolved. The questions you have been posing post by post have drifted a long way from the original questions that began the thread. </strong></p><p></p><p>Let’s look at my questions. </p><p>1) Who is closest to God?</p><p>2) Who do sikhs believe is the one whom God loves the most?</p><p>3) Who God has favoured the most?</p><p>4) Who best followed God's commands?</p><p>5) Who was in closest union with God?</p><p>6) What criteria do sikhs use to determine the answer to the aforementioned question(s)?</p><p>7) how do you differentiate between good and bad people, or good and better people? </p><p>8) What signs do you (Sikhs) look for? </p><p>9) Who is the best person? </p><p>10) How did you reach that conclusion?</p><p>11) Who is the greatest person that ever lived? </p><p>I don’t see a contradiction in my questions, it is the same 2 questions rephrased again and again as no-one seemed to understand them first time round. </p><p>This is a forum of people who adhere to a religion, of people who believe in one God. so when I asked ‘who is closest to God?’ I assumed you would understand it to mean close in a metaphorical sense, the closest one being the person who best realised God. Such a person would be one whom God ‘loves’ – not human love, love here meaning attaining to God’s ‘pleasure’, such that he raises your state and one attains to God’s reward. </p><p></p><p>Page 52, Line 16</p><p>ਜਿਤੜੇ ਫਲ ਮਨਿ ਬਾਛੀਅਹਿ ਤਿਤੜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ ॥</p><p>जितड़े फल मनि बाछीअहि तितड़े सतिगुर पासि ॥</p><p>Jiṯ▫ṛe fal man bācẖẖī▫ah ṯiṯ▫ṛe saṯgur pās.</p><p>All the rewards which the mind desires are with the True Guru.</p><p>Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok</p><p></p><p>Page 95, Line 7</p><p>ਮੇਰੀ ਸਰਧਾ ਪੂਰਿ ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਮਨੁ ਭੀਜੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥</p><p>मेरी सरधा पूरि जगजीवन दाते मिलि हरि दरसनि मनु भीजै जीउ ॥१॥</p><p>Merī sarḏẖā pūr jagjīvan ḏāṯe mil har ḏarsan man bẖījai jī▫o. ||1||</p><p>Please reward my faith, O Life of the World, O Great Giver. Obtaining the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan, my mind is fulfilled. ||1||</p><p>Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok</p><p></p><p>Page 105, Line 16</p><p>ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਸਾ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥</p><p>जिस का सा तिस ते फलु पाइआ ॥</p><p>Jis kā sā ṯis ṯe fal pā▫i▫ā.</p><p>We are His, and from Him, we receive our rewards.</p><p>Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok</p><p></p><p>Page 105, Line 19</p><p>ਸੁਣੀ ਬੇਨੰਤੀ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਮੇਰੈ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਈ ਘਾਲੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥</p><p>सुणी बेनंती ठाकुरि मेरै पूरन होई घाली जीउ ॥२॥</p><p>Suṇī benanṯī ṯẖākur merai pūran ho▫ī gẖālī jī▫o. ||2||</p><p>My Lord and Master has heard my prayer; my efforts have been rewarded. ||2||</p><p>Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok</p><p></p><p>Such a person would receive God’s ‘favour’, he wouldn’t deviate from God’s command, he would be in union with God. See how it all ties in? I was trying to ask the question in different ways so maybe you would understand one of the ways and use it as a doorway into the discourse. When that didn’t work, I tried a few other ways, for example ‘how do you differentiate between good and bad people, or good and better people?’, ‘who is the best person?’ etc. </p><p></p><p>The second question pertains to the thought process as to how the answer to the first question was reached. It is the second question I am really interested in. What signs do Sikhs look for in people to indicate goodness?</p><p></p><p><strong>It is not that I am against meandering conversations per se. But rather I do not really want to play the puppet to your puppeteer strings. This has been my concern all along with threads like this, particularly as the pertain to problems that Muslims have with Sikhs. It simply is not worth it. It is not productive. and is waste of time. Either you want to read and reflect on what a few Sikhs have said here. Or you don't. I don't think you really want to do that -- read and reflect on what we have said.</strong></p><p></p><p>When you speak of being a puppet to my strings, use phrases like ‘threads like this’ and ‘problems muslims have with Sikhs’, it makes me think you have a pretty negative opinion of me. It presses me to conclude that you think I have some sort of hidden agenda, that you have been unhappy with your discourses with muslims in the past and do not want to repeat them. Almost like muslims have been playing some kind of game with you to defame your religion and you have caught onto it. Now, awake and wise you will not let them get any ground on you. You will spot their techniques from a mile off and counter them before they have chance to strike.</p><p></p><p>I’m not playing any games.</p><p></p><p>The danger with such an approach, if that is what you are doing, is that muslims who are genuinely looking to gain an understanding get tainted with the same brush, and their chances to learn are vastly reduced before they even open their mouth due to an underlying prejudice which has grown out of this antagonism. An antagonism guru Nanak disliked abhorrently. </p><p></p><p>My ‘agenda’ here is to try and learn why you love your religious figures so much, what qualities abounded in them that rendered them special above the rest of mankind, such that you adhere to their teachings the most. It is an opportunity to tell someone why you love your gurus so much. What do you have to fear? I thought you would love to answer such a question.</p><p></p><p><strong>I don't think you really want to do that -- read and reflect on what we have said</strong></p><p></p><p>try me.</p><p>now (i hope) that you understand the questions, let's have an honest, productive discourse.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="divine outpouring, post: 122597, member: 11219"] [B]my mother...and why...cause she had to raise me! asking a person; who is the greatest person that ever lived is like asking someone what their favourite colour is and then asking them to justify it. It is a type of question that will never reach a universal consensus but would simply project an individual’s taste. [/B] I see where you’re coming from but I don’t quite agree. Comparing favourite colours is a much less fruitful activity as it doesn’t really help anyone on the path of guidance. It is quite a superficial thing to do. Also, there is little shared ground between colours, such that you can’t really say anything else except that they’re different. When comparing people it is much more apparent that there is shared ground, in that we can ask, “who was the most generous?” or, “who was the most courageous?”, and that this shared ground is useful in that it allows us to compare in an ordinal way. [B]why do you wish to ask something so personal?[/B] I would like to know who Sikhs believe is the greatest person / people to have lived. I want to know the reasons for their personal decision, as I would like to use their standards to look at other figures and see why they are not considered greater than whoever they consider to be great. That’s it. [B]Here is my problem with the discussion so far, and the reason why I do not plan to continue in it until this problem is resolved. The questions you have been posing post by post have drifted a long way from the original questions that began the thread. [/B] Let’s look at my questions. 1) Who is closest to God? 2) Who do sikhs believe is the one whom God loves the most? 3) Who God has favoured the most? 4) Who best followed God's commands? 5) Who was in closest union with God? 6) What criteria do sikhs use to determine the answer to the aforementioned question(s)? 7) how do you differentiate between good and bad people, or good and better people? 8) What signs do you (Sikhs) look for? 9) Who is the best person? 10) How did you reach that conclusion? 11) Who is the greatest person that ever lived? I don’t see a contradiction in my questions, it is the same 2 questions rephrased again and again as no-one seemed to understand them first time round. This is a forum of people who adhere to a religion, of people who believe in one God. so when I asked ‘who is closest to God?’ I assumed you would understand it to mean close in a metaphorical sense, the closest one being the person who best realised God. Such a person would be one whom God ‘loves’ – not human love, love here meaning attaining to God’s ‘pleasure’, such that he raises your state and one attains to God’s reward. Page 52, Line 16 ਜਿਤੜੇ ਫਲ ਮਨਿ ਬਾਛੀਅਹਿ ਤਿਤੜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪਾਸਿ ॥ जितड़े फल मनि बाछीअहि तितड़े सतिगुर पासि ॥ Jiṯ▫ṛe fal man bācẖẖī▫ah ṯiṯ▫ṛe saṯgur pās. All the rewards which the mind desires are with the True Guru. Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 95, Line 7 ਮੇਰੀ ਸਰਧਾ ਪੂਰਿ ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਮਨੁ ਭੀਜੈ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥ मेरी सरधा पूरि जगजीवन दाते मिलि हरि दरसनि मनु भीजै जीउ ॥१॥ Merī sarḏẖā pūr jagjīvan ḏāṯe mil har ḏarsan man bẖījai jī▫o. ||1|| Please reward my faith, O Life of the World, O Great Giver. Obtaining the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan, my mind is fulfilled. ||1|| Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 105, Line 16 ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਸਾ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ जिस का सा तिस ते फलु पाइआ ॥ Jis kā sā ṯis ṯe fal pā▫i▫ā. We are His, and from Him, we receive our rewards. Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Page 105, Line 19 ਸੁਣੀ ਬੇਨੰਤੀ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਮੇਰੈ ਪੂਰਨ ਹੋਈ ਘਾਲੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥ सुणी बेनंती ठाकुरि मेरै पूरन होई घाली जीउ ॥२॥ Suṇī benanṯī ṯẖākur merai pūran ho▫ī gẖālī jī▫o. ||2|| My Lord and Master has heard my prayer; my efforts have been rewarded. ||2|| Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Such a person would receive God’s ‘favour’, he wouldn’t deviate from God’s command, he would be in union with God. See how it all ties in? I was trying to ask the question in different ways so maybe you would understand one of the ways and use it as a doorway into the discourse. When that didn’t work, I tried a few other ways, for example ‘how do you differentiate between good and bad people, or good and better people?’, ‘who is the best person?’ etc. The second question pertains to the thought process as to how the answer to the first question was reached. It is the second question I am really interested in. What signs do Sikhs look for in people to indicate goodness? [B]It is not that I am against meandering conversations per se. But rather I do not really want to play the puppet to your puppeteer strings. This has been my concern all along with threads like this, particularly as the pertain to problems that Muslims have with Sikhs. It simply is not worth it. It is not productive. and is waste of time. Either you want to read and reflect on what a few Sikhs have said here. Or you don't. I don't think you really want to do that -- read and reflect on what we have said.[/B] When you speak of being a puppet to my strings, use phrases like ‘threads like this’ and ‘problems muslims have with Sikhs’, it makes me think you have a pretty negative opinion of me. It presses me to conclude that you think I have some sort of hidden agenda, that you have been unhappy with your discourses with muslims in the past and do not want to repeat them. Almost like muslims have been playing some kind of game with you to defame your religion and you have caught onto it. Now, awake and wise you will not let them get any ground on you. You will spot their techniques from a mile off and counter them before they have chance to strike. I’m not playing any games. The danger with such an approach, if that is what you are doing, is that muslims who are genuinely looking to gain an understanding get tainted with the same brush, and their chances to learn are vastly reduced before they even open their mouth due to an underlying prejudice which has grown out of this antagonism. An antagonism guru Nanak disliked abhorrently. My ‘agenda’ here is to try and learn why you love your religious figures so much, what qualities abounded in them that rendered them special above the rest of mankind, such that you adhere to their teachings the most. It is an opportunity to tell someone why you love your gurus so much. What do you have to fear? I thought you would love to answer such a question. [B]I don't think you really want to do that -- read and reflect on what we have said[/B] try me. now (i hope) that you understand the questions, let's have an honest, productive discourse. [/QUOTE]
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