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Gurbani (1118-1123)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
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What Is Prayer? Should Sikhs Pray?
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<blockquote data-quote="Luckysingh" data-source="post: 163585" data-attributes="member: 16886"><p><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2> </p><p></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></p><p><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Well, I think believing prayer is a waste of time- is an actual mockery of faith.</p><p> </p><p></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></p><p>H- Contemplation, which is thinking hard about the word of God, and figuring out how to implement it, is time well spent. To ask God for anything is a waste of time, and in my view is dangerous</p><p><span style="color: green">L- How can asking God be a waste, Asking is not telling. Bowing down, kneeling and asking is an act of respect and humility. How can this be dangerous</span></p><p><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Quite simply- PRAYER is Talking To God.</p><p>If someone asks me to pray for them or something else, I see no wrong in this at all.</p><p>They are asking me to talk to God.</p><p>There is nothing ritualistic about it, prayer and religion go together.</p><p> </p><p></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></p><p>H- I find so much wrong with this statement, firstly why is anyone asking you? why would they not be able to do it themselves? Do you have a private line to God that they do not have? this is how babas start, by encouraging others they have a magic hotline</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: green">L- this was a reference to your comment when requested to pray. You thought of it as unnecessary and pointless. If someone asks me to pray for someones health or well being, I find that they are asking me to do a spiritual act of goodness- what's wrong with that ?? It's not about private lines, the more that commit to prayer the better.</span></p><p><span style="color: green">Your comment that-why should I be asked ? do I have a private line to god ?- Is like someone asking why do you follow sikhism ?- because you get express tickets to salvation ??</span></p><p> </p><p><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>For eg. You could pray asking for a certain job, after an interview. The prayer could be along the lines of 'please Lord, I need this job, so please make it possible, because I can then do this..this...this...and that....-This is A Prayer with specific expected outcomes.</p><p>OR you could do No.2 a Prayer with regards to the job without any specific demanding outcomes such as ' Please Lord bless me and give me grace so that I may pursue the best possible option, let your WILL be the deciding factor wether I get the job or not, but whatever happens, may that be the best thing for me in the long run, I ask for your blessings'</p><p></p><p></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></p><p>H- I cannot see the point of either, you assume that God is going to change the course of life, or give you special powers, how is this not a belief in magic, in superstition, whilst your wasting time praying for a short cut, you could be spending that time ensuring you have given your best and by giving your best as laid out in bani, being truthful, honest, showing no fear, not arguing</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: green">L- I do NOT assume that my course of life will change with a sudden prayer, no one that prays does this. It's an act that is used along with ALL our abilities.</span></p><p><span style="color: green">Giving your best as laid out in bani is all the qualities that we need plus prayer if it helps. Bani mentions acts of prayer throughout.</span></p><p><span style="color: green">Everything we do in life from learning, doing and giving our best is not all we do. We still have hope, no matter what we hope for. What better way of formatting your hope in a prayer ?? </span></p><p> </p><p><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>BOTH No.1 and No.2 can be used to pray.</p><p>No.1, where one asks for that job to happen is because they believe it would be the best thing. If it doesn't happen, then they are not or shouldn't stop praying.</p><p>In my opinion it is these No.1 's that have not had the expected specific outcome in instances that are the ones to say praying is a waste of time,-what's the point ?? Whatever happens will happen anyway.</p><p>Whereas No.2 prayers are the ones that regardless of outcome are always pleased with the outcome.-</p><p>Well, I wouldn't put it as always pleased- as there would be a greater tendency wishing for the job to happen.-BUT, they are more accepting, as they will accept the job Not happening- they would be thankful that the intended decision was still for the best.-They know with time, they will realise why they didn't get the job. </p><p>Was it even worth them wasting their time ?? -One will ask, -Ofcourse it was.-</p><p>Its Talking to God.</p><p>It's about how spiritual one is. The more spiritual one is the more likely they pray via No.2</p><p>The less spiritual, the less they pray altogether </p><p></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></p><p>H- Now we enter very dangerous ground, and this exactly my point for not praying in such a manner, instead of looking at yourself, and figuring out what you did not do to get a job, or working out what you could have done to make it happen, you accept it as the will of God. When my father was in hospital, I did not pray, I looked up every reference to blood poisoning I could find, and researched all treatments and symptoms, my mother and brother did the same, between us, we knew exactly what the situation was, and what was being done, are you suggesting I should pray and leave it all to God? That is not the God I recognise, God gives me the brains to seek the knowledge for myself, it is provided in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is the only reference I have and need, it is not a book of chants and spells to be recited and for intricate ceremonies with nice smells and fires, it is wisdom to be learned and to be used.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: green">L- The above is you saying, you were either going to pray or do some research. But, why not do both ? No one is sayiing for you to just sit and pray, but you can still pray for hope and do your research. No one is telling you that a prayer is your magic formula. Prayer is what you and only you make it.</span></p><p> </p><p><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>But, everyone has different needs at different times in their life. So, I don't have any problem with anyone asking to pass their exams, get the scholarship or job ...etc...etc...</p><p>THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. IF THAT'S HOW YOU PRAY AND TALK TO GOD, THEN FINE..... WHY SHOULD WE JUDGE AND SAY IT'S WRONG OR A WASTE OF TIME!!!!</p><p> </p><p></p><p></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></p><p>H-Sorry, I say it is wrong, lets stop learning altogether and just chant and meditate and ask God for help?</p><p> </p><p>And what happens when a wish is granted, when as prayer is heard? it is human nature then to put everything on the prayer and nothing on the learning, the wisdom, is this right?</p><p><span style="color: green">L-Again, no one is saying you don't learn or use wisdom. Prayer is somethong you do from within, along with all activities done from outside. NO-one is sayong only act from within or the outside</span>.</p><p><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Praying helps us devolop spirituality, no doubt and spirituality helps strengthen the prayer.- This is why most of us are more than happy when a Gianni does the ardaas mentioning our prayer or outcome. Because, we regard the gianni as more spiritual, regardless of wether he actually is or not.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></p><p>H-Learning helps us develop spirituality, I do not believe any God wishes us to be beholdent to it, if anything surely God wishes us to learn and become wise, how is prayer going to make us wise? it is only going to confuse us and sideline our thinking.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: green">L- learning is a huge element of life from birth to the last breath.Why are you saying that only learning helps develop spirituality ? Any spirituality you have, is it all attained from learning and learning solely ??</span></p><p><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>So, the answer to Harryji's question 'if sikhs should pray ?' is simply -YES- as it helps condition ones spiritually and vice versa, saying No- isn't going to help at all, afterall, there is nothing to lose or any negative effects of praying, no harm can ever be done by it. But you can do more harm to yourself in terms of spirituality by denying the need to pray.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></p><p>H-Sorry I remain unconvinced, there are many negative aspects to prayer, a belief in ritual, superstition and magic for one as against a belief in simple universal truth and order.</p><p> </p><p>It is the difference between fate and Hukam.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: green">L- What negative aspects ? You mean false hopes ? That is not the same thing.</span></p><p><span style="color: green">Like I said, if you assume prayer is a magic formula, then you have the wrong idea.-Talking to God, does not guarantee a magic answer.</span></p><p><span style="color: #008000">Tell me of someone who has caused themselves harm with prayer ?</span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #008000">You seem to be mixed up with hope, prayer and magic miracles. You need to distinguish between the three and understand that prayer is talking to God, based on hopes you have.</span></p><p><span style="color: #008000">At the end of the day it's personal, wether you do it or not. We have no right to judge and say that one is wasting their time or to be critical for that matter.</span></p><p><span style="color: #008000">You may feel there is no need to pray know. But we shouldn't deny it as one day your hopes can all mount up and you will be praying without even realising.</span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #008000">If talking and prayer helps someone to get closer to god and become more spiritual, then I cannot live in denial wether I pray or not.</span></p><p><span style="color: #008000">For the record, I'm being positive with regards to prayer in this post but I, myself, hardly ever pray in the sense of giving a list of requests. </span></p><p><span style="color: #008000">Infact, I only ever ask the lord for strength and wisdom and thank him for all I have already which includes being alive and able bodied, especially after my experiences.</span></p><p> </p><p>I sense that maybe you have had some No1 hopes without the prayer part. These may have let you down which is why I sense some anger and resentment towards the act of prayer.</p><p> </p><p>Waheguru</p><p>Lucky Singh</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Luckysingh, post: 163585, member: 16886"] <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Well, I think believing prayer is a waste of time- is an actual mockery of faith. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> H- Contemplation, which is thinking hard about the word of God, and figuring out how to implement it, is time well spent. To ask God for anything is a waste of time, and in my view is dangerous [COLOR=green]L- How can asking God be a waste, Asking is not telling. Bowing down, kneeling and asking is an act of respect and humility. How can this be dangerous[/COLOR] <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Quite simply- PRAYER is Talking To God. If someone asks me to pray for them or something else, I see no wrong in this at all. They are asking me to talk to God. There is nothing ritualistic about it, prayer and religion go together. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> H- I find so much wrong with this statement, firstly why is anyone asking you? why would they not be able to do it themselves? Do you have a private line to God that they do not have? this is how babas start, by encouraging others they have a magic hotline [COLOR=green]L- this was a reference to your comment when requested to pray. You thought of it as unnecessary and pointless. If someone asks me to pray for someones health or well being, I find that they are asking me to do a spiritual act of goodness- what's wrong with that ?? It's not about private lines, the more that commit to prayer the better.[/COLOR] [COLOR=green]Your comment that-why should I be asked ? do I have a private line to god ?- Is like someone asking why do you follow sikhism ?- because you get express tickets to salvation ??[/COLOR] <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>For eg. You could pray asking for a certain job, after an interview. The prayer could be along the lines of 'please Lord, I need this job, so please make it possible, because I can then do this..this...this...and that....-This is A Prayer with specific expected outcomes. OR you could do No.2 a Prayer with regards to the job without any specific demanding outcomes such as ' Please Lord bless me and give me grace so that I may pursue the best possible option, let your WILL be the deciding factor wether I get the job or not, but whatever happens, may that be the best thing for me in the long run, I ask for your blessings' </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> H- I cannot see the point of either, you assume that God is going to change the course of life, or give you special powers, how is this not a belief in magic, in superstition, whilst your wasting time praying for a short cut, you could be spending that time ensuring you have given your best and by giving your best as laid out in bani, being truthful, honest, showing no fear, not arguing [COLOR=green]L- I do NOT assume that my course of life will change with a sudden prayer, no one that prays does this. It's an act that is used along with ALL our abilities.[/COLOR] [COLOR=green]Giving your best as laid out in bani is all the qualities that we need plus prayer if it helps. Bani mentions acts of prayer throughout.[/COLOR] [COLOR=green]Everything we do in life from learning, doing and giving our best is not all we do. We still have hope, no matter what we hope for. What better way of formatting your hope in a prayer ?? [/COLOR] <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>BOTH No.1 and No.2 can be used to pray. No.1, where one asks for that job to happen is because they believe it would be the best thing. If it doesn't happen, then they are not or shouldn't stop praying. In my opinion it is these No.1 's that have not had the expected specific outcome in instances that are the ones to say praying is a waste of time,-what's the point ?? Whatever happens will happen anyway. Whereas No.2 prayers are the ones that regardless of outcome are always pleased with the outcome.- Well, I wouldn't put it as always pleased- as there would be a greater tendency wishing for the job to happen.-BUT, they are more accepting, as they will accept the job Not happening- they would be thankful that the intended decision was still for the best.-They know with time, they will realise why they didn't get the job. Was it even worth them wasting their time ?? -One will ask, -Ofcourse it was.- Its Talking to God. It's about how spiritual one is. The more spiritual one is the more likely they pray via No.2 The less spiritual, the less they pray altogether </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> H- Now we enter very dangerous ground, and this exactly my point for not praying in such a manner, instead of looking at yourself, and figuring out what you did not do to get a job, or working out what you could have done to make it happen, you accept it as the will of God. When my father was in hospital, I did not pray, I looked up every reference to blood poisoning I could find, and researched all treatments and symptoms, my mother and brother did the same, between us, we knew exactly what the situation was, and what was being done, are you suggesting I should pray and leave it all to God? That is not the God I recognise, God gives me the brains to seek the knowledge for myself, it is provided in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is the only reference I have and need, it is not a book of chants and spells to be recited and for intricate ceremonies with nice smells and fires, it is wisdom to be learned and to be used. [COLOR=green]L- The above is you saying, you were either going to pray or do some research. But, why not do both ? No one is sayiing for you to just sit and pray, but you can still pray for hope and do your research. No one is telling you that a prayer is your magic formula. Prayer is what you and only you make it.[/COLOR] <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>But, everyone has different needs at different times in their life. So, I don't have any problem with anyone asking to pass their exams, get the scholarship or job ...etc...etc... THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. IF THAT'S HOW YOU PRAY AND TALK TO GOD, THEN FINE..... WHY SHOULD WE JUDGE AND SAY IT'S WRONG OR A WASTE OF TIME!!!! </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> H-Sorry, I say it is wrong, lets stop learning altogether and just chant and meditate and ask God for help? And what happens when a wish is granted, when as prayer is heard? it is human nature then to put everything on the prayer and nothing on the learning, the wisdom, is this right? [COLOR=green]L-Again, no one is saying you don't learn or use wisdom. Prayer is somethong you do from within, along with all activities done from outside. NO-one is sayong only act from within or the outside[/COLOR]. <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Praying helps us devolop spirituality, no doubt and spirituality helps strengthen the prayer.- This is why most of us are more than happy when a Gianni does the ardaas mentioning our prayer or outcome. Because, we regard the gianni as more spiritual, regardless of wether he actually is or not. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> H-Learning helps us develop spirituality, I do not believe any God wishes us to be beholdent to it, if anything surely God wishes us to learn and become wise, how is prayer going to make us wise? it is only going to confuse us and sideline our thinking. [COLOR=green]L- learning is a huge element of life from birth to the last breath.Why are you saying that only learning helps develop spirituality ? Any spirituality you have, is it all attained from learning and learning solely ??[/COLOR] <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>So, the answer to Harryji's question 'if sikhs should pray ?' is simply -YES- as it helps condition ones spiritually and vice versa, saying No- isn't going to help at all, afterall, there is nothing to lose or any negative effects of praying, no harm can ever be done by it. But you can do more harm to yourself in terms of spirituality by denying the need to pray. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> H-Sorry I remain unconvinced, there are many negative aspects to prayer, a belief in ritual, superstition and magic for one as against a belief in simple universal truth and order. It is the difference between fate and Hukam.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> [COLOR=green]L- What negative aspects ? You mean false hopes ? That is not the same thing.[/COLOR] [COLOR=green]Like I said, if you assume prayer is a magic formula, then you have the wrong idea.-Talking to God, does not guarantee a magic answer.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#008000]Tell me of someone who has caused themselves harm with prayer ?[/COLOR] [COLOR=#008000]You seem to be mixed up with hope, prayer and magic miracles. You need to distinguish between the three and understand that prayer is talking to God, based on hopes you have.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#008000]At the end of the day it's personal, wether you do it or not. We have no right to judge and say that one is wasting their time or to be critical for that matter.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#008000]You may feel there is no need to pray know. But we shouldn't deny it as one day your hopes can all mount up and you will be praying without even realising.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#008000]If talking and prayer helps someone to get closer to god and become more spiritual, then I cannot live in denial wether I pray or not.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#008000]For the record, I'm being positive with regards to prayer in this post but I, myself, hardly ever pray in the sense of giving a list of requests. [/COLOR] [COLOR=#008000]Infact, I only ever ask the lord for strength and wisdom and thank him for all I have already which includes being alive and able bodied, especially after my experiences.[/COLOR] I sense that maybe you have had some No1 hopes without the prayer part. These may have let you down which is why I sense some anger and resentment towards the act of prayer. Waheguru Lucky Singh [/QUOTE]
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Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
What Is Prayer? Should Sikhs Pray?
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