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What Does Salvation/Mukti (ਮੁਕਤੀ) Mean To You As A Sikh?
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<blockquote data-quote="BhagatSingh" data-source="post: 159755" data-attributes="member: 2610"><p>Yes Ambarsaria ji,</p><p>It is only an assumption you have made, and a false one. One can judge one's progress like one can judge their progress in sports, for example. What we are talking about is no different. It is moral athleticism (coined by Sam Harris). Tiger Woods of morality will know his skill in morality as the Tiger Woods of golf knows his skill in golf. We learn and grow and we can see we are growing. It's the same with morality (and liberation).</p><p></p><p>The fallacy is in placing all Babeys and Sants in the same box and naively simplifying the whole issue into a black and white thing (thinking one is either a <em>mukt</em> or not). Indeed not all coaches will be able to teach you basketball equally well and not all coaches maybe good players but there are good coaches out there. Only by learning from them and measuring one's progress can one know if they are good coaches or not. This reminds me of a conversation we have previously had. Here: <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37636-hukamnama-no-different-to-reading-horoscope-5.html#post156920" target="_blank">http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37636-hukamnama-no-different-to-reading-horoscope-5.html#post156920</a></p><p></p><p><em>Mukti</em> is like basketball. One might shoot and miss but if all factors for getting the ball in to the net are in place (eg. proper form, angle, force, etc) then the ball will go into the net. A player-in-training is trying to perfect each of those factors, so he can miss less often and get the ball into the net more often. <em>Mukti</em> appears to me to be like that. A skilled <em>Mukt</em> remains in the state of <em>mukti</em> <strong>more often</strong> than an unskilled one. His attempts to ground himself in tough situations (similar to the attempts of Michael Jordan shooting the ball) are successful more often. Meditation is one of these factors like form, angle or force. It is not the only factor but certainly an important one. One must also listen to spiritual wisdom, contemplate spiritual texts, develop a daily discipline of waking up early and training for a Sikh specifically (like a basketball player does), get out there and do good deeds, develop certain virtues like compassion, truthfulness, etc.</p><p></p><p>Of course, grounding oneself is not the only thing a Michael Jordan of morality does. A basket ball player moves around the court dribbling the ball and dodging incoming players. Michael Jordan of morality also does other things, see the other Ashtpadees on Brahm Gyanis in Sukhmani Sahib.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Both. They are complementary.</p><p></p><p>These states of <em><em>mukti</em></em> are described very well in spiritual texts. They describe Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods of morality. Only one who is liberated can understand them fully but for those of us who are not at that level, we can see what we should be aiming for. </p><p></p><p>E.g. in Sukhmani Sahib this state is described. (I attest with some experience)</p><p>ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ॥</p><p>असटपदी ॥</p><p>Asatpaḏī.</p><p>Ashtapadee:</p><p></p><p>ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ॥</p><p>ब्रहम गिआनी सदा निरलेप ॥</p><p>Barahm gi▫ānī saḏā nirlep.</p><p>The God-conscious being is <strong>always unattached</strong>,</p><p></p><p>ਜੈਸੇ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਮਲ ਅਲੇਪ ॥</p><p>जैसे जल महि कमल अलेप ॥</p><p>Jaise jal mėh kamal alep.</p><p>as the lotus in the water remains detached.</p><p></p><p>ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਦੋਖ ॥</p><p>ब्रहम गिआनी सदा निरदोख ॥</p><p>Barahm gi▫ānī saḏā nirḏokẖ.</p><p>The God-conscious being <strong>is always unstained</strong>,</p><p></p><p>ਜੈਸੇ ਸੂਰੁ ਸਰਬ ਕਉ ਸੋਖ ॥</p><p>जैसे सूरु सरब कउ सोख ॥</p><p>Jaise sūr sarab ka▫o sokẖ.</p><p>like the sun, which gives its comfort and warmth to all.</p><p></p><p></p><p>ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਮਾਨਿ ॥</p><p>ब्रहम गिआनी कै द्रिसटि समानि ॥</p><p>Barahm gi▫ānī kai ḏarisat samān.</p><p>The God-conscious being <strong>looks upon all alike</strong>,</p><p></p><p>ਜੈਸੇ ਰਾਜ ਰੰਕ ਕਉ ਲਾਗੈ ਤੁਲਿ ਪਵਾਨ ॥</p><p>जैसे राज रंक कउ लागै तुलि पवान ॥</p><p>Jaise rāj rank ka▫o lāgai ṯul pavān.</p><p>like the wind, which blows equally upon the king and the poor beggar.</p><p></p><p>ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਏਕ ॥</p><p>ब्रहम गिआनी कै धीरजु एक ॥</p><p>Barahm gi▫ānī kai ḏẖīraj ek.</p><p>The God-conscious being has a <strong>steady patience</strong>,</p><p></p><p>ਜਿਉ ਬਸੁਧਾ ਕੋਊ ਖੋਦੈ ਕੋਊ ਚੰਦਨ ਲੇਪ ॥</p><p>जिउ बसुधा कोऊ खोदै कोऊ चंदन लेप ॥</p><p>Ji▫o basuḏẖā ko▫ū kẖoḏai ko▫ū cẖanḏan lep.</p><p>like the earth, which is dug up by one, and anointed with sandal paste by another.</p><p></p><p>ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਇਹੈ ਗੁਨਾਉ ॥</p><p>ब्रहम गिआनी का इहै गुनाउ ॥</p><p>Barahm gi▫ānī kā ihai gunā▫o.</p><p>This is the quality of the God-conscious being:</p><p></p><p>ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਵਕ ਕਾ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਭਾਉ ॥੧॥</p><p>नानक जिउ पावक का सहज सुभाउ ॥१॥</p><p>Nānak ji▫o pāvak kā sahj subẖā▫o. ||1||</p><p>O Nanak, his inherent nature is like a warming fire. ||1||</p><p></p><p>You won't know what is means to be unattached, have a steady patience or what it means to look at everyone alike until you meditate and lose your sense of self if only for a minute.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BhagatSingh, post: 159755, member: 2610"] Yes Ambarsaria ji, It is only an assumption you have made, and a false one. One can judge one's progress like one can judge their progress in sports, for example. What we are talking about is no different. It is moral athleticism (coined by Sam Harris). Tiger Woods of morality will know his skill in morality as the Tiger Woods of golf knows his skill in golf. We learn and grow and we can see we are growing. It's the same with morality (and liberation). The fallacy is in placing all Babeys and Sants in the same box and naively simplifying the whole issue into a black and white thing (thinking one is either a [I]mukt[/I] or not). Indeed not all coaches will be able to teach you basketball equally well and not all coaches maybe good players but there are good coaches out there. Only by learning from them and measuring one's progress can one know if they are good coaches or not. This reminds me of a conversation we have previously had. Here: [url]http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37636-hukamnama-no-different-to-reading-horoscope-5.html#post156920[/url] [I]Mukti[/I] is like basketball. One might shoot and miss but if all factors for getting the ball in to the net are in place (eg. proper form, angle, force, etc) then the ball will go into the net. A player-in-training is trying to perfect each of those factors, so he can miss less often and get the ball into the net more often. [I]Mukti[/I] appears to me to be like that. A skilled [I]Mukt[/I] remains in the state of [I]mukti[/I] [B]more often[/B] than an unskilled one. His attempts to ground himself in tough situations (similar to the attempts of Michael Jordan shooting the ball) are successful more often. Meditation is one of these factors like form, angle or force. It is not the only factor but certainly an important one. One must also listen to spiritual wisdom, contemplate spiritual texts, develop a daily discipline of waking up early and training for a Sikh specifically (like a basketball player does), get out there and do good deeds, develop certain virtues like compassion, truthfulness, etc. Of course, grounding oneself is not the only thing a Michael Jordan of morality does. A basket ball player moves around the court dribbling the ball and dodging incoming players. Michael Jordan of morality also does other things, see the other Ashtpadees on Brahm Gyanis in Sukhmani Sahib. Both. They are complementary. These states of [I][I]mukti[/I][/I] are described very well in spiritual texts. They describe Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods of morality. Only one who is liberated can understand them fully but for those of us who are not at that level, we can see what we should be aiming for. E.g. in Sukhmani Sahib this state is described. (I attest with some experience) ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ॥ असटपदी ॥ Asatpaḏī. Ashtapadee: ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ॥ ब्रहम गिआनी सदा निरलेप ॥ Barahm gi▫ānī saḏā nirlep. The God-conscious being is [B]always unattached[/B], ਜੈਸੇ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਮਲ ਅਲੇਪ ॥ जैसे जल महि कमल अलेप ॥ Jaise jal mėh kamal alep. as the lotus in the water remains detached. ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਦੋਖ ॥ ब्रहम गिआनी सदा निरदोख ॥ Barahm gi▫ānī saḏā nirḏokẖ. The God-conscious being [B]is always unstained[/B], ਜੈਸੇ ਸੂਰੁ ਸਰਬ ਕਉ ਸੋਖ ॥ जैसे सूरु सरब कउ सोख ॥ Jaise sūr sarab ka▫o sokẖ. like the sun, which gives its comfort and warmth to all. ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਮਾਨਿ ॥ ब्रहम गिआनी कै द्रिसटि समानि ॥ Barahm gi▫ānī kai ḏarisat samān. The God-conscious being [B]looks upon all alike[/B], ਜੈਸੇ ਰਾਜ ਰੰਕ ਕਉ ਲਾਗੈ ਤੁਲਿ ਪਵਾਨ ॥ जैसे राज रंक कउ लागै तुलि पवान ॥ Jaise rāj rank ka▫o lāgai ṯul pavān. like the wind, which blows equally upon the king and the poor beggar. ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੈ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਏਕ ॥ ब्रहम गिआनी कै धीरजु एक ॥ Barahm gi▫ānī kai ḏẖīraj ek. The God-conscious being has a [B]steady patience[/B], ਜਿਉ ਬਸੁਧਾ ਕੋਊ ਖੋਦੈ ਕੋਊ ਚੰਦਨ ਲੇਪ ॥ जिउ बसुधा कोऊ खोदै कोऊ चंदन लेप ॥ Ji▫o basuḏẖā ko▫ū kẖoḏai ko▫ū cẖanḏan lep. like the earth, which is dug up by one, and anointed with sandal paste by another. ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਇਹੈ ਗੁਨਾਉ ॥ ब्रहम गिआनी का इहै गुनाउ ॥ Barahm gi▫ānī kā ihai gunā▫o. This is the quality of the God-conscious being: ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਉ ਪਾਵਕ ਕਾ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਭਾਉ ॥੧॥ नानक जिउ पावक का सहज सुभाउ ॥१॥ Nānak ji▫o pāvak kā sahj subẖā▫o. ||1|| O Nanak, his inherent nature is like a warming fire. ||1|| You won't know what is means to be unattached, have a steady patience or what it means to look at everyone alike until you meditate and lose your sense of self if only for a minute. [/QUOTE]
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