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ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
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ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
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Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
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Gurbani (660-685)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
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Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
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Chhant (843-848)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
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Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Gurmat Vichaar
Gurmat Vichar - Discussions
Understanding Gurbani
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<blockquote data-quote="Harjas Kaur Khalsa" data-source="post: 79569" data-attributes="member: 2125"><p>I am referring to Gurbani which makes reference to the Dharma Bull and to how Dharma is falling off it's legs. I cited Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas because it explains well how the Gurbani talking about Dharma, and Gurbani talking about the Dharma Bull are covering the same ground. Or are you not aware that Gurbani discusses Dharma in the same way as reference to Dharm Bull?</p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਇਕ ਕਲ ਕੀਨੀ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">thraethai eik kal keenee dhoor ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, one leg was removed. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਪਾਖੰਡੁ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਣਨਿ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">paakhandd varathiaa har jaanan dhoor ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">Hypocrisy became prevalent, and people thought that the Lord was far away. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਈ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">guramukh boojhai sojhee hoee ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">The Gurmukhs still understood and realized;</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਅੰਤਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">anthar naam vasai sukh hoee ||2||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">the Naam abided deep within them, and they were at peace. ||2|| </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਦੂਜੈ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">dhuaapur dhoojai dhubidhhaa hoe ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, duality and double-mindedness arose.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਨੇ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਦੋਇ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">bharam bhulaanae jaanehi dhoe ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">Deluded by doubt, they knew duality. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਧਰਮਿ ਦੁਇ ਪੈਰ ਰਖਾਏ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">dhuaapur dhharam dhue pair rakhaaeae ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">In this Brass Age, Dharma was left with only two feet. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ ॥੩॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">guramukh hovai th naam dhrirraaeae ||3||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">Those who became Gurmukh implanted the Naam deep within. ||3|| </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਕਲਜੁਗਿ ਧਰਮ ਕਲਾ ਇਕ ਰਹਾਏ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">kalajug dhharam kalaa eik rehaaeae ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">In the Iron Age of Kali Yuga, Dharma was left with only one power. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਇਕ ਪੈਰਿ ਚਲੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਵਧਾਏ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">eik pair chalai maaeiaa mohu vadhhaaeae ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">It walks on just one foot; love and emotional attachment to Maya have increased.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">~SGGS Ji p. 880</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਧਉਲੇ ਬਲਦ ਚੜਿਆ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">paanddae thumaraa mehaadhaeo dhhoulae baladh charriaa aavath dhaekhiaa thhaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">O Pandit, I saw your great god Shiva, riding along on a white bull.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">~SGGS Ji p. 874</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I didn't say that you said Hinduism is worthless. I said nowhere in Gurbani does it say Hindu religion is worthless because in nearly all your posts you talk about how every Hindu concept in Gurbani is useless to Sikhs now, to be discarded, to be rejected, to be ignored.</p><p></p><p>And I do not agree. I think many Sikhs do not even understand concept of dasam duar, or Naam, or amrit trickling down the throat, or yugs, or how Guru's could be one Jyot, or how Guru could speak from God-consciousness without physically being God, or how Guru is different from previous avatars, etc. without having some basic understanding of the Vedic concepts as they are used in Gurbani and in supportive vaaran. These are not meaningless concepts to be discarded or they would not be in Gurbani.</p><p></p><p>Where is the false accusation you are going on about? You are not saying repeatedly any knowledge or clarification coming from Vedantic sources is worth ignoring as useless for a Sikh? And so I addressed this view, "Where in Gurbani does Guru say Hindu religion is worthless, because in pauri after pauri Guru is speaking within the context and framework of Vedanta. So it's not discarded at all. It's corrected, clarified and improved upon. That is my opinion. Didn't you write on another post that simply sharing these things would cause Sikhs to run to a Hindu mandir and become Hindus? You don't have to agree with it or follow every post I write with endless personal disagreements. Write what you believe and understand. Why does it offend you so much that I have a different opinion? I'm nowhere attacking you personally except to try and answer objections. Why should I be defensive? Agree or don't agree.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Why put down the high compliment you paid to Aad0002 by including put down of me personally? Why not simply say, "I prefer this view?"</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You did not prove. I am not persuaded. Not only in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but also in Dasam Granth Bani Ji and vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji is there reference to avtaaras. I don't believe you understand the concept. You think I'm distorting Gurbani. We cannot continue further, since neither will persuade the other. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">aavaa goun nivaariou kar nadhar neesaan ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">You eliminate the comings and goings of reincarnation, and bestow the insignia of Your Glance of Grace. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਅਉਤਰਿਆ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਲੈ ਸੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">aouthariaa aouthaar lai so purakh sujaan ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">You are the Avataar, the Incarnation of the all-knowing Primal Lord.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">~SGGS Ji p. 968</span></p><p></p><p>He Gurbani does not say descent from Divine manifestation is a punishment incarnation but to enlighten a world in darkness, and neither does it say Guru "claimed" to be avtaar.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਿਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੬॥</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">har naam rasik naanak gur raaj jog thai maaniou ||6||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak; You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds. ||6||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">~SGGS Ji p. 1390</span></p><p></p><p></p><p>Interpret Gurbani to the best of your ability. That is all I'm trying to do. It's a diswcussion forum. If you don't accept it, that's fine. I can't persuade anyone, only show very beautiful and interesting things. I invite you to consider the sexual adventures you constantly refer to as being another element of Maya, generation and perhaps degeneration of the creative principle in corrupted ages. I don't believe devtas are quite on the same level as a human being, although the ensuing degeneration is in fact what is keeping human beings in bondage to Maya through karam. Let's evaluate things with reason and not crudely as if such designations are intended as a put down or presumed inferiority of Hindu religion. Guruji was correcting that all the devtas fell into the bondage of Time and Maya, and these Vedic stories are His example. I explained several times that the Mahadevas are the creative principle, primarily Vishnu which is why He has the 10 incarnations of avataaras spoken of in Gurbani. Even the physical forms of Guru were in Time, as they all died. And this is why it is clear Sikh is not to worship or idolize either the sargun saroop of Hindu devtas or humanity of the 10 human forms and 11th physical form of the God-conscious Jyot (avtaar) of Guruji. But we pay homage to the Shabad-Jyot Himself which encompasses both nirgun and sargun reality.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Gurbani says this, not me. But you are so busy being offended and rejecting that you can't see it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">~SGGS Ji p. 469</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">ਕੁਵਲੀਆ ਪੀੜੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਰਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਪਚਾਹਾ ॥੨॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2|| </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">ਆਪਿ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਚੋਜਾਹਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">aap akhaarraa paaeidhaa piaaraa kar vaekhai aap chojaahaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">The Beloved Himself sets the stage; He performs the plays, and He Himself watches them. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">kar baalak roop oupaaeidhaa piaaraa chanddoor kans kaes maaraahaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਲੁ ਭੰਨੈ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾਹਾ ॥੩॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">aapae hee bal aap hai piaaraa bal bhannai moorakh mugadhhaahaa ||3||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">The Beloved Himself, by Himself, is the embodiment of power; He shatters the power of the fools and idiots. ||3||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">sabh aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">~SGGS Ji p. 606</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkRed">ਚਰਨ ਬਧਿਕ ਜਨ ਤੇਊ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਭਏ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkRed">charan badhhik jan thaeoo mukath bheae ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkRed">The hunter who shot Krishna in the foot - even he was liberated.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkRed">~SGGS Ji p. 345</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤਾ ਪਰਭਾਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੋਡੇ ਉਤੇ ਪੈਰ ਪਸਾਰੇ । </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">jaai sutaa parabhaas vichi goday utay pair pasaaray|</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">At the sacred place of Prabhas, Krishna slept cross legged with his foot on his knee. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਹੈ ਝਿਲਮਿਲ ਝਲਕੇ ਵਾਂਗੀ ਤਾਰੇ । </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">charan kaval vichi padamu hai jhilamil jhalakay vaangee taaray|</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">The lotus sign in his foot was illuminating like a star. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਬਧਕੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਾਲਦਾ ਮਿਰਗੈ ਜਾਣਿ ਬਾਣੁ ਲੈ ਮਾਰੇ । </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">badhaku aaiaa bhaaladaa miragai jaani baanu|ai maaray|</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">A hunter came and considering it an eye of a deer, shot the arrow. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਦਰਸਨ ਡਿਠੋਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ । </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">darasan ditdosu jaai kai karan palaav karay pukaaray|</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">As he approached, he realised it was Krishna. He became full of sorrow and begged forgiveness.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਗਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੀਤਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ । </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">gali vichi|eetaa krisan jee avagunu keetaa hari n chitaaray|</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ । </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">kari kirapaa santokhiaa patit udhaaranu biradu beechaaray|</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the wrongdoer. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਭਲੇ ਭਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਨਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ । </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">bhalay bhalay kari manneeani buriaan day hari kaaj savaaray|</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">The good is said good by everyone but the works of the evil doers are set right by the Lord only.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥੨੩॥੧੦॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">paap karaynday patit udhaaray ॥23॥10॥</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">He has liberated many fallen sinners.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">~ Vaar 10 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Of course He takes birth. He created Himself in the creation. In His Parabrahm aspect He is uncreated and cannot be born. But no one in sansaara could perceive Him. So He became manifest descending Light into the darkness of sansaaric world. And this is the meaning of avataar. Not that avataar is the Parabrahm, only the sargun form which is perceivable.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਉਪਜੇ ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">sunnahu oupajae dhas avathaaraa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">From the Primal Void, the ten incarnations welled up. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੀਆ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">srisatt oupaae keeaa paasaaraa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">Creating the Universe, He made the expanse.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਦੇਵ ਦਾਨਵ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਸਾਜੇ ਸਭਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੨॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">dhaev dhaanav gan gandhharab saajae sabh likhiaa karam kamaaeidhaa ||12||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">He fashioned the demi-gods and demons, the heavenly heralds and celestial musicians; everyone acts according to their past karma. ||12||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">~SGGS Ji p. 1038</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">brehamaa bisan mehaes dhaev oupaaeiaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">brehamae dhithae baedh poojaa laaeiaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">dhas avathaaree raam raajaa aaeiaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">The ten incarnations, and Rama the king, came into being. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਦੈਤਾ ਮਾਰੇ ਧਾਇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">dhaithaa maarae dhhaae hukam sabaaeiaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">According to His Will, they quickly killed all the demons.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਈਸ ਮਹੇਸੁਰੁ ਸੇਵ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ees mehaesur saev thinhee anth n paaeiaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">Shiva serves Him, but cannot find His limits. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਸਚੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਤਖਤੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">sachee keemath paae thakhath rachaaeiaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">He established His throne on the principles of Truth. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਦੁਨੀਆ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇ ਆਪੁ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">dhuneeaa dhhandhhai laae aap shhapaaeiaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">He enjoined all the world to its tasks, while He keeps Himself hidden from view.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">~SGGS Ji p. 1279</span></p><p></p><p>I simply do not see where Gurbani says the Hindu devas do not exist or are fairy-tales. But everywhere they are shown as an integral part of manifest creation and even as legitimate spirituality and path to the Uncreated Parabrahm for past ages.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It seems you cannot accept where Gurbani is saying Nirgun Parabrahm has created the creation and is manifest in His creation and that creation and Hindu devtas are none other than He. So I presume this to be an Abrahamic concept that One God is forever separate from His creation. Since Sikh's have the One Ek Oangkar and not the Hindu's, maybe they should convert? It's a logical step following the presumption that Hindu devas are only corrupted or mythological, and a true distortion of Gurbani teaching about manifestation of Parabrahm Jyot in Time-Space and thus falling into the three gunas and duality. Gurbani says Guruji brought us the Shabad-Jyot and this Naam which is vibrating in the nirgun as well as the sargun and remains the only boat which is uncorrupted. Nowhere does Gurbani say Hindu devas are invalid, unreal, and provided no Light of God for past ages.</p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">breham giaanee aap nirankaar ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">The God-conscious being is himself the Formless Lord.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬਨੀ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">breham giaanee kee sobhaa breham giaanee banee ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">The glory of the God-conscious being belongs to the God-conscious being alone.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਰਬ ਕਾ ਧਨੀ ॥੮॥੮॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">naanak breham giaanee sarab kaa dhhanee ||8||8||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">O Nanak, the God-conscious being is the Lord of all. ||8||8||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">~SGGS Ji p. 274</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy"></span></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">baisano so jis oopar suprasann ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom God is thoroughly pleased.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">bisan kee maaeiaa thae hoe bhinn ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">He dwells apart from Maya.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">karam karath hovai nihakaram ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਧਰਮ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">this baisano kaa niramal dhharam ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav;</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkGreen">~SGGS Ji p. 274</span></p><p></p><p>That is my true understanding. There are pure and impure forms of religion...even in Sikhism. This is Kalyug. True religion is hard to aquire. But the beauty of the past does not become unbeautiful simply because this is a corrupted age. And the beauty of Gurbani contains all the beauty of the past or these definitions, stories, teachings and explanations would not be in Gurbani.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is what I mean by discarding and disrespecting the validity of Hindu religion in some mistaken attempt to convince people of the independance of Sikh teaching. And hence I wrote: "Where does Gurbani say Hindu religion is worthless." Because to consider no Light of God at all in Hindu devas is a really low opinion of Hindu religion.</p><p></p><p>~Bhul chak maaf karni ji</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Harjas Kaur Khalsa, post: 79569, member: 2125"] I am referring to Gurbani which makes reference to the Dharma Bull and to how Dharma is falling off it's legs. I cited Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas because it explains well how the Gurbani talking about Dharma, and Gurbani talking about the Dharma Bull are covering the same ground. Or are you not aware that Gurbani discusses Dharma in the same way as reference to Dharm Bull? [INDENT][COLOR="Blue"]ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਇਕ ਕਲ ਕੀਨੀ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ thraethai eik kal keenee dhoor || In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, one leg was removed. ਪਾਖੰਡੁ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਣਨਿ ਦੂਰਿ ॥ paakhandd varathiaa har jaanan dhoor || Hypocrisy became prevalent, and people thought that the Lord was far away. ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਈ ॥ guramukh boojhai sojhee hoee || The Gurmukhs still understood and realized; ਅੰਤਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥ anthar naam vasai sukh hoee ||2|| the Naam abided deep within them, and they were at peace. ||2|| ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਦੂਜੈ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ dhuaapur dhoojai dhubidhhaa hoe || In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, duality and double-mindedness arose. ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਨੇ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਦੋਇ ॥ bharam bhulaanae jaanehi dhoe || Deluded by doubt, they knew duality. ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਧਰਮਿ ਦੁਇ ਪੈਰ ਰਖਾਏ ॥ dhuaapur dhharam dhue pair rakhaaeae || In this Brass Age, Dharma was left with only two feet. ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ ॥੩॥ guramukh hovai th naam dhrirraaeae ||3|| Those who became Gurmukh implanted the Naam deep within. ||3|| ਕਲਜੁਗਿ ਧਰਮ ਕਲਾ ਇਕ ਰਹਾਏ ॥ kalajug dhharam kalaa eik rehaaeae || In the Iron Age of Kali Yuga, Dharma was left with only one power. ਇਕ ਪੈਰਿ ਚਲੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਵਧਾਏ ॥ eik pair chalai maaeiaa mohu vadhhaaeae || It walks on just one foot; love and emotional attachment to Maya have increased. ~SGGS Ji p. 880[/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="Purple"]ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਧਉਲੇ ਬਲਦ ਚੜਿਆ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ paanddae thumaraa mehaadhaeo dhhoulae baladh charriaa aavath dhaekhiaa thhaa || O Pandit, I saw your great god Shiva, riding along on a white bull. ~SGGS Ji p. 874[/COLOR][/INDENT] I didn't say that you said Hinduism is worthless. I said nowhere in Gurbani does it say Hindu religion is worthless because in nearly all your posts you talk about how every Hindu concept in Gurbani is useless to Sikhs now, to be discarded, to be rejected, to be ignored. And I do not agree. I think many Sikhs do not even understand concept of dasam duar, or Naam, or amrit trickling down the throat, or yugs, or how Guru's could be one Jyot, or how Guru could speak from God-consciousness without physically being God, or how Guru is different from previous avatars, etc. without having some basic understanding of the Vedic concepts as they are used in Gurbani and in supportive vaaran. These are not meaningless concepts to be discarded or they would not be in Gurbani. Where is the false accusation you are going on about? You are not saying repeatedly any knowledge or clarification coming from Vedantic sources is worth ignoring as useless for a Sikh? And so I addressed this view, "Where in Gurbani does Guru say Hindu religion is worthless, because in pauri after pauri Guru is speaking within the context and framework of Vedanta. So it's not discarded at all. It's corrected, clarified and improved upon. That is my opinion. Didn't you write on another post that simply sharing these things would cause Sikhs to run to a Hindu mandir and become Hindus? You don't have to agree with it or follow every post I write with endless personal disagreements. Write what you believe and understand. Why does it offend you so much that I have a different opinion? I'm nowhere attacking you personally except to try and answer objections. Why should I be defensive? Agree or don't agree. Why put down the high compliment you paid to Aad0002 by including put down of me personally? Why not simply say, "I prefer this view?" You did not prove. I am not persuaded. Not only in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, but also in Dasam Granth Bani Ji and vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji is there reference to avtaaras. I don't believe you understand the concept. You think I'm distorting Gurbani. We cannot continue further, since neither will persuade the other. [INDENT][COLOR="Blue"] ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥ aavaa goun nivaariou kar nadhar neesaan || You eliminate the comings and goings of reincarnation, and bestow the insignia of Your Glance of Grace. ਅਉਤਰਿਆ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਲੈ ਸੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥ aouthariaa aouthaar lai so purakh sujaan || You are the Avataar, the Incarnation of the all-knowing Primal Lord. ~SGGS Ji p. 968[/COLOR][/INDENT] He Gurbani does not say descent from Divine manifestation is a punishment incarnation but to enlighten a world in darkness, and neither does it say Guru "claimed" to be avtaar. [INDENT][COLOR="Indigo"]ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਿਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੬॥ har naam rasik naanak gur raaj jog thai maaniou ||6|| You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak; You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds. ||6|| ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou || In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou || In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou || In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans. ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou || You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness. ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou || In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das. ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7|| The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7|| ~SGGS Ji p. 1390[/COLOR][/INDENT] Interpret Gurbani to the best of your ability. That is all I'm trying to do. It's a diswcussion forum. If you don't accept it, that's fine. I can't persuade anyone, only show very beautiful and interesting things. I invite you to consider the sexual adventures you constantly refer to as being another element of Maya, generation and perhaps degeneration of the creative principle in corrupted ages. I don't believe devtas are quite on the same level as a human being, although the ensuing degeneration is in fact what is keeping human beings in bondage to Maya through karam. Let's evaluate things with reason and not crudely as if such designations are intended as a put down or presumed inferiority of Hindu religion. Guruji was correcting that all the devtas fell into the bondage of Time and Maya, and these Vedic stories are His example. I explained several times that the Mahadevas are the creative principle, primarily Vishnu which is why He has the 10 incarnations of avataaras spoken of in Gurbani. Even the physical forms of Guru were in Time, as they all died. And this is why it is clear Sikh is not to worship or idolize either the sargun saroop of Hindu devtas or humanity of the 10 human forms and 11th physical form of the God-conscious Jyot (avtaar) of Guruji. But we pay homage to the Shabad-Jyot Himself which encompasses both nirgun and sargun reality. Gurbani says this, not me. But you are so busy being offended and rejecting that you can't see it. [INDENT][COLOR="Navy"]ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa || The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul. ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥ aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4|| Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4|| ~SGGS Ji p. 469[/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="DarkGreen"]ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥ aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa || The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods. ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥ aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa || The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute. ਕੁਵਲੀਆ ਪੀੜੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਰਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਪਚਾਹਾ ॥੨॥ kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2|| The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2|| ਆਪਿ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਚੋਜਾਹਾ ॥ aap akhaarraa paaeidhaa piaaraa kar vaekhai aap chojaahaa || The Beloved Himself sets the stage; He performs the plays, and He Himself watches them. ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥ kar baalak roop oupaaeidhaa piaaraa chanddoor kans kaes maaraahaa || The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee. ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਲੁ ਭੰਨੈ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾਹਾ ॥੩॥ aapae hee bal aap hai piaaraa bal bhannai moorakh mugadhhaahaa ||3|| The Beloved Himself, by Himself, is the embodiment of power; He shatters the power of the fools and idiots. ||3|| ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥ sabh aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa || The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages. ~SGGS Ji p. 606[/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="DarkRed"]ਚਰਨ ਬਧਿਕ ਜਨ ਤੇਊ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਭਏ ॥ charan badhhik jan thaeoo mukath bheae || The hunter who shot Krishna in the foot - even he was liberated. ~SGGS Ji p. 345[/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="Indigo"]ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤਾ ਪਰਭਾਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਗੋਡੇ ਉਤੇ ਪੈਰ ਪਸਾਰੇ । jaai sutaa parabhaas vichi goday utay pair pasaaray| At the sacred place of Prabhas, Krishna slept cross legged with his foot on his knee. ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਹੈ ਝਿਲਮਿਲ ਝਲਕੇ ਵਾਂਗੀ ਤਾਰੇ । charan kaval vichi padamu hai jhilamil jhalakay vaangee taaray| The lotus sign in his foot was illuminating like a star. ਬਧਕੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਾਲਦਾ ਮਿਰਗੈ ਜਾਣਿ ਬਾਣੁ ਲੈ ਮਾਰੇ । badhaku aaiaa bhaaladaa miragai jaani baanu|ai maaray| A hunter came and considering it an eye of a deer, shot the arrow. ਦਰਸਨ ਡਿਠੋਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ । darasan ditdosu jaai kai karan palaav karay pukaaray| As he approached, he realised it was Krishna. He became full of sorrow and begged forgiveness. ਗਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੀਤਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ । gali vichi|eetaa krisan jee avagunu keetaa hari n chitaaray| Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him. ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ । kari kirapaa santokhiaa patit udhaaranu biradu beechaaray| Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the wrongdoer. ਭਲੇ ਭਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਨਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ । bhalay bhalay kari manneeani buriaan day hari kaaj savaaray| The good is said good by everyone but the works of the evil doers are set right by the Lord only. ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥੨੩॥੧੦॥ paap karaynday patit udhaaray ॥23॥10॥ He has liberated many fallen sinners. ~ Vaar 10 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji[/COLOR][/INDENT] Of course He takes birth. He created Himself in the creation. In His Parabrahm aspect He is uncreated and cannot be born. But no one in sansaara could perceive Him. So He became manifest descending Light into the darkness of sansaaric world. And this is the meaning of avataar. Not that avataar is the Parabrahm, only the sargun form which is perceivable. [INDENT][COLOR="Blue"]ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਉਪਜੇ ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥ sunnahu oupajae dhas avathaaraa || From the Primal Void, the ten incarnations welled up. ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੀਆ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥ srisatt oupaae keeaa paasaaraa || Creating the Universe, He made the expanse. ਦੇਵ ਦਾਨਵ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਸਾਜੇ ਸਭਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੨॥ dhaev dhaanav gan gandhharab saajae sabh likhiaa karam kamaaeidhaa ||12|| He fashioned the demi-gods and demons, the heavenly heralds and celestial musicians; everyone acts according to their past karma. ||12|| ~SGGS Ji p. 1038 [/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="Purple"]ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ brehamaa bisan mehaes dhaev oupaaeiaa || Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created. ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ brehamae dhithae baedh poojaa laaeiaa || Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God. ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ dhas avathaaree raam raajaa aaeiaa || The ten incarnations, and Rama the king, came into being. ਦੈਤਾ ਮਾਰੇ ਧਾਇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥ dhaithaa maarae dhhaae hukam sabaaeiaa || According to His Will, they quickly killed all the demons. ਈਸ ਮਹੇਸੁਰੁ ਸੇਵ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ees mehaesur saev thinhee anth n paaeiaa || Shiva serves Him, but cannot find His limits. ਸਚੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਤਖਤੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥ sachee keemath paae thakhath rachaaeiaa || He established His throne on the principles of Truth. ਦੁਨੀਆ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇ ਆਪੁ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥ dhuneeaa dhhandhhai laae aap shhapaaeiaa || He enjoined all the world to its tasks, while He keeps Himself hidden from view. ~SGGS Ji p. 1279[/COLOR][/INDENT] I simply do not see where Gurbani says the Hindu devas do not exist or are fairy-tales. But everywhere they are shown as an integral part of manifest creation and even as legitimate spirituality and path to the Uncreated Parabrahm for past ages. It seems you cannot accept where Gurbani is saying Nirgun Parabrahm has created the creation and is manifest in His creation and that creation and Hindu devtas are none other than He. So I presume this to be an Abrahamic concept that One God is forever separate from His creation. Since Sikh's have the One Ek Oangkar and not the Hindu's, maybe they should convert? It's a logical step following the presumption that Hindu devas are only corrupted or mythological, and a true distortion of Gurbani teaching about manifestation of Parabrahm Jyot in Time-Space and thus falling into the three gunas and duality. Gurbani says Guruji brought us the Shabad-Jyot and this Naam which is vibrating in the nirgun as well as the sargun and remains the only boat which is uncorrupted. Nowhere does Gurbani say Hindu devas are invalid, unreal, and provided no Light of God for past ages. [INDENT][COLOR="Navy"]ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ breham giaanee aap nirankaar || The God-conscious being is himself the Formless Lord. ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਬਨੀ ॥ breham giaanee kee sobhaa breham giaanee banee || The glory of the God-conscious being belongs to the God-conscious being alone. ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਰਬ ਕਾ ਧਨੀ ॥੮॥੮॥ naanak breham giaanee sarab kaa dhhanee ||8||8|| O Nanak, the God-conscious being is the Lord of all. ||8||8|| ~SGGS Ji p. 274 [/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="DarkGreen"]ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥ baisano so jis oopar suprasann || The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom God is thoroughly pleased. ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥ bisan kee maaeiaa thae hoe bhinn || He dwells apart from Maya. ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥ karam karath hovai nihakaram || Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards. ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਧਰਮ ॥ this baisano kaa niramal dhharam || Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav; ~SGGS Ji p. 274[/COLOR][/INDENT] That is my true understanding. There are pure and impure forms of religion...even in Sikhism. This is Kalyug. True religion is hard to aquire. But the beauty of the past does not become unbeautiful simply because this is a corrupted age. And the beauty of Gurbani contains all the beauty of the past or these definitions, stories, teachings and explanations would not be in Gurbani. This is what I mean by discarding and disrespecting the validity of Hindu religion in some mistaken attempt to convince people of the independance of Sikh teaching. And hence I wrote: "Where does Gurbani say Hindu religion is worthless." Because to consider no Light of God at all in Hindu devas is a really low opinion of Hindu religion. ~Bhul chak maaf karni ji [/QUOTE]
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Gurmat Vichaar
Gurmat Vichar - Discussions
Understanding Gurbani
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