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Hard Talk
Trouble Understanding This Shabad With Reference To Women
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<blockquote data-quote="spnadmin" data-source="post: 134593" data-attributes="member: 35"><p>Here is the translation by Bhai Manmohan Singh ji for the same passage on Ang 304. It gives a better context for what Guru Ram Das ji is communicating.</p><p></p><p>ਮਃ ੪ ॥</p><p>मः ४ ॥</p><p>Mėhlā 4.</p><p>4Th Guru.</p><p></p><p>ਸਾਰਾ ਦਿਨੁ ਲਾਲਚਿ ਅਟਿਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਰੇ ਗਲਾ ॥</p><p>सारा दिनु लालचि अटिआ मनमुखि होरे गला ॥</p><p>Sārā ḏin lālacẖ ati▫ā manmukẖ hore galā.</p><p>The perverse person is all day occupied with avarice though he talks otherwise.</p><p></p><p>ਰਾਤੀ ਊਘੈ ਦਬਿਆ ਨਵੇ ਸੋਤ ਸਭਿ ਢਿਲਾ ॥</p><p>राती ऊघै दबिआ नवे सोत सभि ढिला ॥</p><p>Rāṯī ūgẖai ḏabi▫ā nave soṯ sabẖ dẖilā.</p><p>At night he is over-powered by drowsiness and all his nine apertures get weakened.</p><p></p><p>ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਦੈ ਸਿਰਿ ਜੋਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਿਤ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਭਲਾ ॥</p><p>मनमुखा दै सिरि जोरा अमरु है नित देवहि भला ॥</p><p>Manmukẖā ḏai sir jorā amar hai niṯ ḏevėh bẖalā.</p><p>On the head of an apostate is the order of the woman and he ever holds out good promises to her.</p><p></p><p>ਜੋਰਾ ਦਾ ਆਖਿਆ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵਦੇ ਸੇ ਅਪਵਿਤ ਅਮੇਧ ਖਲਾ ॥</p><p>जोरा दा आखिआ पुरख कमावदे से अपवित अमेध खला ॥</p><p>Jorā ḏā ākẖi▫ā purakẖ kamāvḏe se apviṯ ameḏẖ kẖalā.</p><p>The men, who act as women tell them, are impure filthy and foolish.</p><p></p><p>ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਕੁਸੁਧ ਨਰ ਸੇ ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਛਿ ਚਲਾ ॥</p><p>कामि विआपे कुसुध नर से जोरा पुछि चला ॥</p><p>Kām vi▫āpe kusuḏẖ nar se jorā pucẖẖ cẖalā.</p><p>The impure persons are engrossed in lust. They consult women and walk accordingly.</p><p></p><p>ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਆਖਿਐ ਜੋ ਚਲੈ ਸੋ ਸਤਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਭਲ ਭਲਾ ॥</p><p>सतिगुर कै आखिऐ जो चलै सो सति पुरखु भल भला ॥</p><p>Saṯgur kai ākẖi▫ai jo cẖalai so saṯ purakẖ bẖal bẖalā.</p><p>He who walks as the True Guru tells him he is the true man the best of the good.</p><p></p><p>ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਭਿ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਖੇਲ ਸਭਿ ਖਿਲਾ ॥</p><p>जोरा पुरख सभि आपि उपाइअनु हरि खेल सभि खिला ॥</p><p>Jorā purakẖ sabẖ āp upā▫i▫an har kẖel sabẖ kẖilā.</p><p>He Himself has created all the women and men. God plays every play.</p><p></p><p>ਸਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਣਤ ਬਣਾਵਣੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਲ ਭਲਾ ॥੨॥</p><p>सभ तेरी बणत बणावणी नानक भल भला ॥२॥</p><p>Sabẖ ṯerī baṇaṯ baṇāvaṇī Nānak bẖal bẖalā. ||2||</p><p>All the make that Thou hast made, O Nanak is the best of the best. </p><p></p><p>In the Sant Singh translation the first line begins with "the self-willed manmukh" and in Bhai Manmohan Singh's translation it is the "perverse" person who is the subject of the vaar. Bhai ji's translation brings the thought closer to what the shabad actually says.</p><p></p><p>I do not read this shabad to mean that the orders of women lead to impurity and foolishness. It is dense I must admit. However, the shabad applies to someone who cannot or will not free himself emotionally from his avarice/greed and his lust for women, and remains stuck in his perverseness. This perverse person becomes drowsy in the spiritual sense (loses consciousness). A good analogy would be how we become sleepy when we eat too much. Guru Ram Das ji equates weakening of the spiritual centers with the drowsiness that comes from engrossment in lust/in sensuality. </p><p></p><p>ਰਾਤੀ ਊਘੈ ਦਬਿਆ ਨਵੇ ਸੋਤ ਸਭਿ ਢਿਲਾ ॥</p><p>राती ऊघै दबिआ नवे सोत सभि ढिला ॥</p><p>Rāṯī ūgẖai ḏabi▫ā nave soṯ sabẖ dẖilā.</p><p>At night he is over-powered by drowsiness and all his nine apertures get weakened.</p><p></p><p>Then he goes on to explain the consequences of losing spiritual consciousness to investments in sensuality. One ends up driven like a horse, a mere animal. <span style="font-size: 15px">ਹੈ </span>Hai in this case means in metaphor he is (like) a horse. He is like a horse who is controlled by (his lust for ) a woman.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਦੈ ਸਿਰਿ ਜੋਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ </span><span style="font-size: 15px"><span style="color: Blue">ਹੈ </span></span><span style="color: Blue">ਨਿਤ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਭਲਾ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">मनमुखा दै सिरि जोरा अमरु है नित देवहि भला ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Manmukẖā ḏai sir jorā amar hai niṯ ḏevėh bẖalā.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">On the head of an apostate is the order of the woman and he ever holds out good promises to her.</span></p><p></p><p>The man who ends up driven like a horse is also utterly dependent on receiving the favors of the one who drives him, in this case a woman, and "walks accordingly." In other words he is driven like a horse, and walks in the harness of another human being, like a mere animal. </p><p></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਕੁਸੁਧ ਨਰ ਸੇ ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਛਿ ਚਲਾ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">कामि विआपे कुसुध नर से जोरा पुछि चला ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Kām vi▫āpe kusuḏẖ nar se jorā pucẖẖ cẖalā.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">The impure persons are engrossed in lust. They consult women and walk accordingly.</span></p><p></p><p>One also has to read the saloka that comes before and the pauree that follows because they elaborate. Other kinds of perversity undermine. In the pauree, Guru Ram Das repeats that we pine for those things that are poisonous to our spiritual health. One part of it says, </p><p></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਰੀਸੈ ਹੋਰਿ ਕਚੁ ਪਿਚੁ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਸੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੇ ਝੜਿ ਪੜੀਐ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">सतिगुर की रीसै होरि कचु पिचु बोलदे से कूड़िआर कूड़े झड़ि पड़ीऐ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Saṯgur kī rīsai hor kacẖ picẖ bolḏe se kūṛi▫ār kūṛe jẖaṛ paṛī▫ai.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">By way of emulating the True Guru some others utter filth bad and good sermons but because of falsehood, those false ones soon get devastated.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਹੋਰੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਰੁ ਹੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਨੋ ਝਖਿ ਮਰਦੇ ਕੜੀਐ ॥੯॥</span> <span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ओन्हा अंदरि होरु मुखि होरु है बिखु माइआ नो झखि मरदे कड़ीऐ ॥९॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Onĥā anḏar hor mukẖ hor hai bikẖ mā▫i▫ā no jẖakẖ marḏe kaṛī▫ai. ||9||</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">In their heart is one thing and in their mouth is quite another. They hanker after and pine away for the poisonous wealth. </span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span> </p><p>The point of these vaars is not about the evils of women. This is the point.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਬਣੀਐ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">सतिगुर की बाणी सति सरूपु है गुरबाणी बणीऐ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Saṯgur kī baṇī saṯ sarūp hai gurbāṇī baṇī▫ai.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">The Gurbani if the Satguru is the embodiment of Truth. Through Gurbani the mortal becomes perfect. </span></p><p></p><p>This is a clumsy effort on my part. But the best I can do.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="spnadmin, post: 134593, member: 35"] Here is the translation by Bhai Manmohan Singh ji for the same passage on Ang 304. It gives a better context for what Guru Ram Das ji is communicating. ਮਃ ੪ ॥ मः ४ ॥ Mėhlā 4. 4Th Guru. ਸਾਰਾ ਦਿਨੁ ਲਾਲਚਿ ਅਟਿਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਰੇ ਗਲਾ ॥ सारा दिनु लालचि अटिआ मनमुखि होरे गला ॥ Sārā ḏin lālacẖ ati▫ā manmukẖ hore galā. The perverse person is all day occupied with avarice though he talks otherwise. ਰਾਤੀ ਊਘੈ ਦਬਿਆ ਨਵੇ ਸੋਤ ਸਭਿ ਢਿਲਾ ॥ राती ऊघै दबिआ नवे सोत सभि ढिला ॥ Rāṯī ūgẖai ḏabi▫ā nave soṯ sabẖ dẖilā. At night he is over-powered by drowsiness and all his nine apertures get weakened. ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਦੈ ਸਿਰਿ ਜੋਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਿਤ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਭਲਾ ॥ मनमुखा दै सिरि जोरा अमरु है नित देवहि भला ॥ Manmukẖā ḏai sir jorā amar hai niṯ ḏevėh bẖalā. On the head of an apostate is the order of the woman and he ever holds out good promises to her. ਜੋਰਾ ਦਾ ਆਖਿਆ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵਦੇ ਸੇ ਅਪਵਿਤ ਅਮੇਧ ਖਲਾ ॥ जोरा दा आखिआ पुरख कमावदे से अपवित अमेध खला ॥ Jorā ḏā ākẖi▫ā purakẖ kamāvḏe se apviṯ ameḏẖ kẖalā. The men, who act as women tell them, are impure filthy and foolish. ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਕੁਸੁਧ ਨਰ ਸੇ ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਛਿ ਚਲਾ ॥ कामि विआपे कुसुध नर से जोरा पुछि चला ॥ Kām vi▫āpe kusuḏẖ nar se jorā pucẖẖ cẖalā. The impure persons are engrossed in lust. They consult women and walk accordingly. ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਆਖਿਐ ਜੋ ਚਲੈ ਸੋ ਸਤਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਭਲ ਭਲਾ ॥ सतिगुर कै आखिऐ जो चलै सो सति पुरखु भल भला ॥ Saṯgur kai ākẖi▫ai jo cẖalai so saṯ purakẖ bẖal bẖalā. He who walks as the True Guru tells him he is the true man the best of the good. ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਭਿ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਖੇਲ ਸਭਿ ਖਿਲਾ ॥ जोरा पुरख सभि आपि उपाइअनु हरि खेल सभि खिला ॥ Jorā purakẖ sabẖ āp upā▫i▫an har kẖel sabẖ kẖilā. He Himself has created all the women and men. God plays every play. ਸਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਣਤ ਬਣਾਵਣੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਲ ਭਲਾ ॥੨॥ सभ तेरी बणत बणावणी नानक भल भला ॥२॥ Sabẖ ṯerī baṇaṯ baṇāvaṇī Nānak bẖal bẖalā. ||2|| All the make that Thou hast made, O Nanak is the best of the best. In the Sant Singh translation the first line begins with "the self-willed manmukh" and in Bhai Manmohan Singh's translation it is the "perverse" person who is the subject of the vaar. Bhai ji's translation brings the thought closer to what the shabad actually says. I do not read this shabad to mean that the orders of women lead to impurity and foolishness. It is dense I must admit. However, the shabad applies to someone who cannot or will not free himself emotionally from his avarice/greed and his lust for women, and remains stuck in his perverseness. This perverse person becomes drowsy in the spiritual sense (loses consciousness). A good analogy would be how we become sleepy when we eat too much. Guru Ram Das ji equates weakening of the spiritual centers with the drowsiness that comes from engrossment in lust/in sensuality. ਰਾਤੀ ਊਘੈ ਦਬਿਆ ਨਵੇ ਸੋਤ ਸਭਿ ਢਿਲਾ ॥ राती ऊघै दबिआ नवे सोत सभि ढिला ॥ Rāṯī ūgẖai ḏabi▫ā nave soṯ sabẖ dẖilā. At night he is over-powered by drowsiness and all his nine apertures get weakened. Then he goes on to explain the consequences of losing spiritual consciousness to investments in sensuality. One ends up driven like a horse, a mere animal. [SIZE=4]ਹੈ [/SIZE]Hai in this case means in metaphor he is (like) a horse. He is like a horse who is controlled by (his lust for ) a woman. [COLOR=Blue]ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਦੈ ਸਿਰਿ ਜੋਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ [/COLOR][SIZE=4][COLOR=Blue]ਹੈ [/COLOR][/SIZE][COLOR=Blue]ਨਿਤ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਭਲਾ ॥ मनमुखा दै सिरि जोरा अमरु है नित देवहि भला ॥ Manmukẖā ḏai sir jorā amar hai niṯ ḏevėh bẖalā. On the head of an apostate is the order of the woman and he ever holds out good promises to her.[/COLOR] The man who ends up driven like a horse is also utterly dependent on receiving the favors of the one who drives him, in this case a woman, and "walks accordingly." In other words he is driven like a horse, and walks in the harness of another human being, like a mere animal. [COLOR=Blue]ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਕੁਸੁਧ ਨਰ ਸੇ ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਛਿ ਚਲਾ ॥ कामि विआपे कुसुध नर से जोरा पुछि चला ॥ Kām vi▫āpe kusuḏẖ nar se jorā pucẖẖ cẖalā. The impure persons are engrossed in lust. They consult women and walk accordingly.[/COLOR] One also has to read the saloka that comes before and the pauree that follows because they elaborate. Other kinds of perversity undermine. In the pauree, Guru Ram Das repeats that we pine for those things that are poisonous to our spiritual health. One part of it says, [COLOR=Blue]ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਰੀਸੈ ਹੋਰਿ ਕਚੁ ਪਿਚੁ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਸੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੇ ਝੜਿ ਪੜੀਐ ॥ सतिगुर की रीसै होरि कचु पिचु बोलदे से कूड़िआर कूड़े झड़ि पड़ीऐ ॥ Saṯgur kī rīsai hor kacẖ picẖ bolḏe se kūṛi▫ār kūṛe jẖaṛ paṛī▫ai. By way of emulating the True Guru some others utter filth bad and good sermons but because of falsehood, those false ones soon get devastated. ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਹੋਰੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਰੁ ਹੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਨੋ ਝਖਿ ਮਰਦੇ ਕੜੀਐ ॥੯॥[/COLOR] [COLOR=Blue] ओन्हा अंदरि होरु मुखि होरु है बिखु माइआ नो झखि मरदे कड़ीऐ ॥९॥ Onĥā anḏar hor mukẖ hor hai bikẖ mā▫i▫ā no jẖakẖ marḏe kaṛī▫ai. ||9|| In their heart is one thing and in their mouth is quite another. They hanker after and pine away for the poisonous wealth. [/COLOR] The point of these vaars is not about the evils of women. This is the point. [COLOR=Blue]ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਬਣੀਐ ॥ सतिगुर की बाणी सति सरूपु है गुरबाणी बणीऐ ॥ Saṯgur kī baṇī saṯ sarūp hai gurbāṇī baṇī▫ai. The Gurbani if the Satguru is the embodiment of Truth. Through Gurbani the mortal becomes perfect. [/COLOR] This is a clumsy effort on my part. But the best I can do. [/QUOTE]
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Trouble Understanding This Shabad With Reference To Women
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