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Hard Talk
Trouble Understanding This Shabad With Reference To Women
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<blockquote data-quote="Ishna" data-source="post: 134589" data-attributes="member: 2709"><p>Sat Sri Akal and hi everyone</p><p></p><p>After reading another thread here a while ago about another religion and what it's scripture has to say about women, I proceeded to search for references to women in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to see what the Guru has to say. I am already very well aware of all the positive things the Guru already says about women, especially when you consider the time and environment it was written in.</p><p></p><p>I am confused at points when Maya is referred to in the feminine quite often and portrayed with female attributes, but that is for another thread.</p><p></p><p>My current confusion is with the following shabad by Guru Ram Das Ji:</p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: rgb(128, 0, 0)"><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਮਃ" target="_blank"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 255)">ਮਃ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=੪" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">੪ </span></a>॥</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'">Mėhlā 4.</span> </span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 128)"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'"><span style="font-size: 12px">Fourth Mehl:</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"><span style="color: #0000ff"><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਾਰਾ" target="_blank">ਸਾਰਾ </a></span><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦਿਨੁ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਦਿਨੁ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਲਾਲਚਿ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਲਾਲਚਿ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਅਟਿਆ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਅਟਿਆ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਮਨਮੁਖਿ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਮਨਮੁਖਿ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਹੋਰੇ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਹੋਰੇ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਗਲਾ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਗਲਾ </span></a>॥</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'">Sārā ḏin lālacẖ ati▫ā manmukẖ hore galā.</span> </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'"><span style="color: #000080">The self-willed manmukh is occupied with greed all day long, although he may claim otherwise.</span></span> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"><span style="color: #0000ff"><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਰਾਤੀ" target="_blank">ਰਾਤੀ </a></span><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਊਘੈ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਊਘੈ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦਬਿਆ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਦਬਿਆ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਵੇ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਨਵੇ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੋਤ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਸੋਤ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਭਿ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਸਭਿ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਢਿਲਾ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਢਿਲਾ </span></a>॥</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'">Rāṯī ūgẖai ḏabi▫ā nave soṯ sabẖ dẖilā.</span> </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'"><span style="color: #000080">At night, he is overcome by fatigue, and all his nine holes are weakened.</span></span> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"><span style="color: #0000ff"><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਮਨਮੁਖਾ" target="_blank">ਮਨਮੁਖਾ </a></span><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦੈ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਦੈ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਿਰਿ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਸਿਰਿ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੋਰਾ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਜੋਰਾ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਅਮਰੁ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਅਮਰੁ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਹੈ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਹੈ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਿਤ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਨਿਤ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦੇਵਹਿ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਦੇਵਹਿ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਭਲਾ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਭਲਾ </span></a>॥</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'">Manmukẖā ḏai sir jorā amar hai niṯ ḏevėh bẖalā.</span> </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'"><span style="color: #000080">Over the head of the manmukh is the order of the woman; to her, he ever holds out his promises of goodness.</span></span> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"><span style="color: #0000ff"><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੋਰਾ" target="_blank">ਜੋਰਾ </a></span><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦਾ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਦਾ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਆਖਿਆ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਆਖਿਆ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪੁਰਖ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਪੁਰਖ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕਮਾਵਦੇ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਕਮਾਵਦੇ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੇ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਸੇ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਅਪਵਿਤ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਅਪਵਿਤ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਅਮੇਧ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਅਮੇਧ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਖਲਾ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਖਲਾ </span></a>॥</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'">Jorā ḏā ākẖi▫ā purakẖ kamāvḏe se apviṯ ameḏẖ kẖalā.</span> </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'"><span style="color: #000080">Those men who act according to the orders of women are impure, filthy and foolish.</span></span> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"><span style="color: #0000ff"><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕਾਮਿ" target="_blank">ਕਾਮਿ </a></span><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਵਿਆਪੇ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਵਿਆਪੇ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕੁਸੁਧ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਕੁਸੁਧ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਰ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਨਰ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੇ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਸੇ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੋਰਾ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਜੋਰਾ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪੁਛਿ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਪੁਛਿ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਚਲਾ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਚਲਾ </span></a>॥</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'">Kām vi▫āpe kusuḏẖ nar se jorā pucẖẖ cẖalā.</span> </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'"><span style="color: #000080">Those impure men are engrossed in sexual desire; they consult their women and walk accordingly.</span></span> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"><span style="color: #0000ff"><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਤਿਗੁਰ" target="_blank">ਸਤਿਗੁਰ </a></span><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕੈ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਕੈ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਆਖਿਐ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਆਖਿਐ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੋ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਜੋ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਚਲੈ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਚਲੈ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੋ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਸੋ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਤਿ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਸਤਿ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪੁਰਖੁ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਪੁਰਖੁ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਭਲ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਭਲ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਭਲਾ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਭਲਾ </span></a>॥</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'">Saṯgur kai ākẖi▫ai jo cẖalai so saṯ purakẖ bẖal bẖalā.</span> </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'"><span style="color: #000080">One who walks as the True Guru tells him to, is the true man, the best of the best.</span></span> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"><span style="color: #0000ff"><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੋਰਾ" target="_blank">ਜੋਰਾ </a></span><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪੁਰਖ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਪੁਰਖ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਭਿ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਸਭਿ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਆਪਿ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਆਪਿ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਹਰਿ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਹਰਿ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਖੇਲ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਖੇਲ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਭਿ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਸਭਿ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਖਿਲਾ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਖਿਲਾ </span></a>॥</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'">Jorā purakẖ sabẖ āp upā▫i▫an har kẖel sabẖ kẖilā.</span> </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'"><span style="color: #000080">He Himself created all women and men; the Lord Himself plays every play.</span></span> </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'AnmolUniPr'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="color: #800000"><span style="color: #0000ff"><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਭ" target="_blank">ਸਭ </a></span><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਤੇਰੀ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਤੇਰੀ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਬਣਤ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਬਣਤ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਬਣਾਵਣੀ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਬਣਾਵਣੀ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਾਨਕ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਨਾਨਕ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਭਲ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਭਲ </span></a><a href="http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਭਲਾ" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0000ff">ਭਲਾ </span></a>॥੨॥</span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'">Sabẖ ṯerī baṇaṯ baṇāvaṇī Nānak bẖal bẖalā. ||2||</span> </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'TAHOMA'"><span style="color: #000080">You created the entire creation; O Nanak, it is the best of the best. ||2||</span></span> </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></p><p>It strikes me that Guru Ram Das is saying that people shouldn't follow the direction of women? I'm not seeing a strong connection to kaam being the negative force in this shabad, which is the connection usually made when one reads shabads about women.</p><p></p><p>I do not want to provoke argument. I am not slandering Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I am trying to understand and quieten my mind.</p><p></p><p>Any thoughts greatly appreciated.</p><p></p><p>Ishna</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ishna, post: 134589, member: 2709"] Sat Sri Akal and hi everyone After reading another thread here a while ago about another religion and what it's scripture has to say about women, I proceeded to search for references to women in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to see what the Guru has to say. I am already very well aware of all the positive things the Guru already says about women, especially when you consider the time and environment it was written in. I am confused at points when Maya is referred to in the feminine quite often and portrayed with female attributes, but that is for another thread. My current confusion is with the following shabad by Guru Ram Das Ji: [FONT=AnmolUniPr][SIZE=3][COLOR=rgb(128, 0, 0)][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਮਃ'][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 255)]ਮਃ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=੪'][COLOR=#0000ff]੪ [/COLOR][/URL]॥[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=3][FONT=TAHOMA]Mėhlā 4.[/FONT] [/SIZE] [COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 128)][FONT=TAHOMA][SIZE=3]Fourth Mehl:[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=AnmolUniPr][SIZE=3][COLOR=#800000] [COLOR=#0000ff][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਾਰਾ']ਸਾਰਾ [/URL][/COLOR][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦਿਨੁ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਦਿਨੁ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਲਾਲਚਿ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਲਾਲਚਿ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਅਟਿਆ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਅਟਿਆ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਮਨਮੁਖਿ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਮਨਮੁਖਿ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਹੋਰੇ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਹੋਰੇ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਗਲਾ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਗਲਾ [/COLOR][/URL]॥[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=3][FONT=TAHOMA]Sārā ḏin lālacẖ ati▫ā manmukẖ hore galā.[/FONT] [FONT=TAHOMA][COLOR=#000080]The self-willed manmukh is occupied with greed all day long, although he may claim otherwise.[/COLOR][/FONT] [/SIZE] [FONT=AnmolUniPr][SIZE=3][COLOR=#800000] [COLOR=#0000ff][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਰਾਤੀ']ਰਾਤੀ [/URL][/COLOR][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਊਘੈ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਊਘੈ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦਬਿਆ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਦਬਿਆ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਵੇ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਨਵੇ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੋਤ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਸੋਤ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਭਿ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਸਭਿ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਢਿਲਾ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਢਿਲਾ [/COLOR][/URL]॥[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=3][FONT=TAHOMA]Rāṯī ūgẖai ḏabi▫ā nave soṯ sabẖ dẖilā.[/FONT] [FONT=TAHOMA][COLOR=#000080]At night, he is overcome by fatigue, and all his nine holes are weakened.[/COLOR][/FONT] [/SIZE] [FONT=AnmolUniPr][SIZE=3][COLOR=#800000] [COLOR=#0000ff][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਮਨਮੁਖਾ']ਮਨਮੁਖਾ [/URL][/COLOR][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦੈ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਦੈ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਿਰਿ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਸਿਰਿ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੋਰਾ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਜੋਰਾ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਅਮਰੁ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਅਮਰੁ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਹੈ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਹੈ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਿਤ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਨਿਤ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦੇਵਹਿ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਦੇਵਹਿ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਭਲਾ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਭਲਾ [/COLOR][/URL]॥[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=3][FONT=TAHOMA]Manmukẖā ḏai sir jorā amar hai niṯ ḏevėh bẖalā.[/FONT] [FONT=TAHOMA][COLOR=#000080]Over the head of the manmukh is the order of the woman; to her, he ever holds out his promises of goodness.[/COLOR][/FONT] [/SIZE] [FONT=AnmolUniPr][SIZE=3][COLOR=#800000] [COLOR=#0000ff][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੋਰਾ']ਜੋਰਾ [/URL][/COLOR][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦਾ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਦਾ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਆਖਿਆ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਆਖਿਆ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪੁਰਖ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਪੁਰਖ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕਮਾਵਦੇ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਕਮਾਵਦੇ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੇ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਸੇ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਅਪਵਿਤ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਅਪਵਿਤ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਅਮੇਧ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਅਮੇਧ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਖਲਾ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਖਲਾ [/COLOR][/URL]॥[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=3][FONT=TAHOMA]Jorā ḏā ākẖi▫ā purakẖ kamāvḏe se apviṯ ameḏẖ kẖalā.[/FONT] [FONT=TAHOMA][COLOR=#000080]Those men who act according to the orders of women are impure, filthy and foolish.[/COLOR][/FONT] [/SIZE] [FONT=AnmolUniPr][SIZE=3][COLOR=#800000] [COLOR=#0000ff][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕਾਮਿ']ਕਾਮਿ [/URL][/COLOR][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਵਿਆਪੇ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਵਿਆਪੇ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕੁਸੁਧ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਕੁਸੁਧ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਰ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਨਰ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੇ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਸੇ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੋਰਾ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਜੋਰਾ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪੁਛਿ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਪੁਛਿ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਚਲਾ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਚਲਾ [/COLOR][/URL]॥[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=3][FONT=TAHOMA]Kām vi▫āpe kusuḏẖ nar se jorā pucẖẖ cẖalā.[/FONT] [FONT=TAHOMA][COLOR=#000080]Those impure men are engrossed in sexual desire; they consult their women and walk accordingly.[/COLOR][/FONT] [/SIZE] [FONT=AnmolUniPr][SIZE=3][COLOR=#800000] [COLOR=#0000ff][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਤਿਗੁਰ']ਸਤਿਗੁਰ [/URL][/COLOR][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕੈ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਕੈ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਆਖਿਐ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਆਖਿਐ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੋ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਜੋ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਚਲੈ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਚਲੈ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੋ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਸੋ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਤਿ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਸਤਿ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪੁਰਖੁ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਪੁਰਖੁ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਭਲ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਭਲ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਭਲਾ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਭਲਾ [/COLOR][/URL]॥[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=3][FONT=TAHOMA]Saṯgur kai ākẖi▫ai jo cẖalai so saṯ purakẖ bẖal bẖalā.[/FONT] [FONT=TAHOMA][COLOR=#000080]One who walks as the True Guru tells him to, is the true man, the best of the best.[/COLOR][/FONT] [/SIZE] [FONT=AnmolUniPr][SIZE=3][COLOR=#800000] [COLOR=#0000ff][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੋਰਾ']ਜੋਰਾ [/URL][/COLOR][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪੁਰਖ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਪੁਰਖ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਭਿ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਸਭਿ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਆਪਿ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਆਪਿ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਹਰਿ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਹਰਿ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਖੇਲ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਖੇਲ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਭਿ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਸਭਿ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਖਿਲਾ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਖਿਲਾ [/COLOR][/URL]॥[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=3][FONT=TAHOMA]Jorā purakẖ sabẖ āp upā▫i▫an har kẖel sabẖ kẖilā.[/FONT] [FONT=TAHOMA][COLOR=#000080]He Himself created all women and men; the Lord Himself plays every play.[/COLOR][/FONT] [/SIZE] [FONT=AnmolUniPr][SIZE=3][COLOR=#800000] [COLOR=#0000ff][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਭ']ਸਭ [/URL][/COLOR][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਤੇਰੀ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਤੇਰੀ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਬਣਤ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਬਣਤ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਬਣਾਵਣੀ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਬਣਾਵਣੀ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਾਨਕ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਨਾਨਕ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਭਲ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਭਲ [/COLOR][/URL][URL='http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਭਲਾ'][COLOR=#0000ff]ਭਲਾ [/COLOR][/URL]॥੨॥[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=3][FONT=TAHOMA]Sabẖ ṯerī baṇaṯ baṇāvaṇī Nānak bẖal bẖalā. ||2||[/FONT] [FONT=TAHOMA][COLOR=#000080]You created the entire creation; O Nanak, it is the best of the best. ||2||[/COLOR][/FONT] [/SIZE] [SIZE=2] [/SIZE] It strikes me that Guru Ram Das is saying that people shouldn't follow the direction of women? I'm not seeing a strong connection to kaam being the negative force in this shabad, which is the connection usually made when one reads shabads about women. I do not want to provoke argument. I am not slandering Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I am trying to understand and quieten my mind. Any thoughts greatly appreciated. Ishna [/QUOTE]
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Trouble Understanding This Shabad With Reference To Women
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