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Hard Talk
Should Sikhs Who Have Only One Guru Visit Hazur Sahib
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<blockquote data-quote="Tejwant Singh" data-source="post: 117761" data-attributes="member: 138"><p>Harbans ji,</p><p></p><p>Guru fateh.</p><p></p><p>Thanks for the response.</p><p></p><p>This forum is a great place because it allows us to share ideas, interact, even though, at times we disagree. For me, disagreements are part of any learning process, so I welcome them. And, please do not take my disagreements personally. </p><p></p><p>You write:</p><p></p><p>From your above statement, one can gather that you believe and have faith in reincarnation and there is such thing as previous birth when our Dasam Pita did penance there.</p><p></p><p>This is a Hindu concept and belief. Our visionary Gurus acknowledged the fact that Hinduism believed in the belief called reincarnation.</p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p> SGGS, is full of verses that acknowledge this belief but in every verse it is repeated by our visionary Gurus that if one follows the Sikhi path, then this belief of death and rebirth ceases to exist. </p><p></p><p>If it were something tangibly true and hence would be the part and parcel of nature, then our Gurus would not have said that at the end of every Shabad regarding the <em>“death”</em> of reincarnation because Ik Ong Kaar <em><u>is</u></em> the Energy that creates nature.</p><p></p><p> Rather than declaring this as false and meaningless belief which for sure might have created a rebellion against our Gurus because reincarnation is one of the main cornerstones of Hinduism, they used the reverse psychology in my opinion in order to avoid any rebellion because most of the people who embraced this novel school of thought called Sikhi, which is idea based were Hindus. And, hence our Gurus tried to steer them towards SAT by explaining through Gurbani the true meaning of<em> life</em>.</p><p></p><p>We know that beliefs require blind faith hence there is lack of logic and reasoning and also, they can not be combated by them either.</p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p> Satnaam, the second word in SGGS, our only Guru, requires no belief but cultivates thinking and reasoning. Truth is a standalone entity. It needs no crutches of belief.</p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p> The first Pauri of Jap ji is the solid proof for all of us to see that.</p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p> One more important thing to notice and it is a fact that our Gurus never talked or praised about themselves or about each other. They only talked and praised The ONE- Ik Ong Kaar. One can verify that in SGGS.</p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p> Keeping the above in my mind, allow me to get back to your post regarding Bachiter Natak.</p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p> We all know the meaning of Natak- which means a play, a fiction, something that is untrue. Something that is a make believe, imaginary.</p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p> Now the question arises why would a Natak be the manifestation of the truth so that Sikh Scholars would go to great lengths to make it the truth by discovering something which is tangible , and hence decide that this is the physical place where our Dasam Pita did Bhagti in his last life? ( I think by penance you mean Bhagti because the meaning of penance is not what is said in Bachiter Natak). </p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p> Penance according to dictionary is:</p><p></p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">pen·ance</span></strong> </p><p></p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">NOUN:</span></strong>because </p><p> </p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">An act of self-mortification or devotion performed voluntarily to show sorrow for a sin or other wrongdoing.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">A sacrament in some Christian churches that includes contrition, confession to a priest, acceptance of punishment, and absolution. Also called <em>reconciliation</em><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">.</span></strong></li> </ol><p> <a href="http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/penance" target="_blank">penance - Dictionary definition and pronunciation - Yahoo! Education</a></p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p>1.Why would these "discoverers" believe in Hindu concept of reincarnation to concoct a place like Hemkunt?</p><p></p><p>2.Why would they undermine Guru Gobind Singh by deciding that he wrote this about himself hence dwelled into Me-ism, not taking into consideration about the true meaning of Sikhi from our only benchmark- the SGGS? </p><p></p><p>This I think is the biggest insult to our only Guru- the SGGS and also to our Dasam Pita.</p><p> </p><p>You yourself have said:</p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />><o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p> Yes it can, but the fact is that Hem Kunt is not taken as a work of art, a fiction. It is not built on some stage where it can be dismantled. It is a real place where thousands of Sikhs throng to every summer, where art is trying to imitate SAT, which is one more non-trait of Sikhi.</p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p> Wikipedia explains Hemkunt like this:</p><p> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Hemkunt_Sahib" target="_blank">Sri Hemkunt Sahib - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</a></p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p></p><p> You also said:</p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p> </p><p>1. Harbans ji, how can one celebrate “a great piece of poetry of Bachittar Natak” when it contradicts the True Poetry which is SGGS?</p><p></p><p>Isn’t this self contradictory?</p><p></p><p></p><p>2. Who has the proof but our Dasam Pita himself that if he wrote Bachitar Natak?</p><p></p><p>3. So, isn't this all speculation and taking decisions and making judgements on his behalf undermine our Dasam Pita, his vision, sacrifices and his own decision not to add anything of his to SGGS as many of us are trying to play him? </p><p></p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p><p>Regards</p><p></p><p>Tejwant Singh</p><p></p><p> <o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />> </o<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tejwant Singh, post: 117761, member: 138"] Harbans ji, Guru fateh. Thanks for the response. This forum is a great place because it allows us to share ideas, interact, even though, at times we disagree. For me, disagreements are part of any learning process, so I welcome them. And, please do not take my disagreements personally. You write: From your above statement, one can gather that you believe and have faith in reincarnation and there is such thing as previous birth when our Dasam Pita did penance there. This is a Hindu concept and belief. Our visionary Gurus acknowledged the fact that Hinduism believed in the belief called reincarnation. <o:p> </o:p> SGGS, is full of verses that acknowledge this belief but in every verse it is repeated by our visionary Gurus that if one follows the Sikhi path, then this belief of death and rebirth ceases to exist. If it were something tangibly true and hence would be the part and parcel of nature, then our Gurus would not have said that at the end of every Shabad regarding the [I]“death”[/I] of reincarnation because Ik Ong Kaar [I][U]is[/U][/I] the Energy that creates nature. Rather than declaring this as false and meaningless belief which for sure might have created a rebellion against our Gurus because reincarnation is one of the main cornerstones of Hinduism, they used the reverse psychology in my opinion in order to avoid any rebellion because most of the people who embraced this novel school of thought called Sikhi, which is idea based were Hindus. And, hence our Gurus tried to steer them towards SAT by explaining through Gurbani the true meaning of[I] life[/I]. We know that beliefs require blind faith hence there is lack of logic and reasoning and also, they can not be combated by them either. <o:p> </o:p> Satnaam, the second word in SGGS, our only Guru, requires no belief but cultivates thinking and reasoning. Truth is a standalone entity. It needs no crutches of belief. <o:p> </o:p> The first Pauri of Jap ji is the solid proof for all of us to see that. <o:p> </o:p> One more important thing to notice and it is a fact that our Gurus never talked or praised about themselves or about each other. They only talked and praised The ONE- Ik Ong Kaar. One can verify that in SGGS. <o:p> </o:p> Keeping the above in my mind, allow me to get back to your post regarding Bachiter Natak. <o:p> </o:p> We all know the meaning of Natak- which means a play, a fiction, something that is untrue. Something that is a make believe, imaginary. <o:p> </o:p> Now the question arises why would a Natak be the manifestation of the truth so that Sikh Scholars would go to great lengths to make it the truth by discovering something which is tangible , and hence decide that this is the physical place where our Dasam Pita did Bhagti in his last life? ( I think by penance you mean Bhagti because the meaning of penance is not what is said in Bachiter Natak). <o:p> </o:p> Penance according to dictionary is: [B][FONT=Arial]pen·ance[/FONT][/B] [B][FONT=Arial]NOUN:[/FONT][/B]because [LIST=1] [*]An act of self-mortification or devotion performed voluntarily to show sorrow for a sin or other wrongdoing. [*]A sacrament in some Christian churches that includes contrition, confession to a priest, acceptance of punishment, and absolution. Also called [I]reconciliation[/I][B][FONT=Arial].[/FONT][/B] [/LIST] [URL="http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/penance"]penance - Dictionary definition and pronunciation - Yahoo! Education[/URL] <o:p> </o:p> 1.Why would these "discoverers" believe in Hindu concept of reincarnation to concoct a place like Hemkunt? 2.Why would they undermine Guru Gobind Singh by deciding that he wrote this about himself hence dwelled into Me-ism, not taking into consideration about the true meaning of Sikhi from our only benchmark- the SGGS? This I think is the biggest insult to our only Guru- the SGGS and also to our Dasam Pita. You yourself have said: <o:p> </o:p><o:p> </o:p> Yes it can, but the fact is that Hem Kunt is not taken as a work of art, a fiction. It is not built on some stage where it can be dismantled. It is a real place where thousands of Sikhs throng to every summer, where art is trying to imitate SAT, which is one more non-trait of Sikhi. <o:p> </o:p> Wikipedia explains Hemkunt like this: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Hemkunt_Sahib"]Sri Hemkunt Sahib - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url] <o:p> </o:p> </o:p></o:p></o:p> You also said: <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p> 1. Harbans ji, how can one celebrate “a great piece of poetry of Bachittar Natak” when it contradicts the True Poetry which is SGGS? Isn’t this self contradictory? 2. Who has the proof but our Dasam Pita himself that if he wrote Bachitar Natak? 3. So, isn't this all speculation and taking decisions and making judgements on his behalf undermine our Dasam Pita, his vision, sacrifices and his own decision not to add anything of his to SGGS as many of us are trying to play him? <o:p> </o:p> Regards Tejwant Singh <o:p> </o:p> [/QUOTE]
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