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Discussions
Hard Talk
"Salvation" Through Faith Or Works?
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<blockquote data-quote="ActsOfGod" data-source="post: 202157" data-attributes="member: 18366"><p>From what I've been able to gather, good works and charity are worthwhile, but their benefit is minuscule when compared to the contemplation of the Naam. Perhaps their value might be as a stepping stone, for Gurbani also tells us that without virtue, there cannot be bhagti/devotional worship.</p><p></p><p>From Japji Sahib:</p><p></p><p>ਤੀਰਥੁ ਤਪੁ ਦਇਆ ਦਤੁ ਦਾਨੁ ॥</p><p>Pilgrimages, austere discipline, compassion and charity -</p><p></p><p>ਜੇ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ਤਿਲ ਕਾ ਮਾਨੁ ॥</p><p>these, by themselves, bring only an iota of merit.</p><p></p><p>ਸੁਣਿਆ ਮੰਨਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਕੀਤਾ ਭਾਉ ॥</p><p>Listening and believing with love and humility in your mind,</p><p></p><p>ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਮਲਿ ਨਾਉ ॥</p><p>cleanse yourself with the Name, at the sacred shrine deep within.</p><p></p><p>ਸਭਿ ਗੁਣ ਤੇਰੇ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥</p><p>All virtues are Yours, Lord, I have none at all.</p><p></p><p>ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥</p><p>Without virtue, there is no devotional worship.</p><p></p><p>ਸੁਅਸਤਿ ਆਥਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬਰਮਾਉ ॥</p><p>I bow to the Lord of the World, to His Word, to Brahma the Creator.</p><p></p><p>ਸਤਿ ਸੁਹਾਣੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ ॥</p><p>He is Beautiful, True and Eternally Joyful.</p><p></p><p>ਕਵਣੁ ਸੁ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਕਵਣ ਥਿਤਿ ਕਵਣੁ ਵਾਰੁ ॥</p><p>What was that time, and what was that moment? What was that day, and what was that date?</p><p></p><p>ਕਵਣਿ ਸਿ ਰੁਤੀ ਮਾਹੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਹੋਆ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥</p><p>What was that season, and what was that month, when the Universe was created?</p><p></p><p>ਵੇਲ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ਪੰਡਤੀ ਜਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਲੇਖੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ॥</p><p>The Pandits, the religious scholars, cannot find that time, even if it is written in the Puraanas.</p><p></p><p>ਵਖਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਕਾਦੀਆ ਜਿ ਲਿਖਨਿ ਲੇਖੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥</p><p>That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran.</p><p></p><p>ਥਿਤਿ ਵਾਰੁ ਨਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਜਾਣੈ ਰੁਤਿ ਮਾਹੁ ਨਾ ਕੋਈ ॥</p><p>The day and the date are not known to the Yogis, nor is the month or the season.</p><p></p><p>ਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਿਰਠੀ ਕਉ ਸਾਜੇ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ॥</p><p>The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.</p><p></p><p>ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ ॥</p><p>How can we speak of Him? How can we praise Him? How can we describe Him? How can we know Him?</p><p></p><p>ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖਣਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਇਕ ਦੂ ਇਕੁ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥</p><p>O Nanak, everyone speaks of Him, each one wiser than the rest.</p><p></p><p>ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥</p><p>Great is the Master, Great is His Name. Whatever happens is according to His Will.</p><p></p><p>ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਪੌ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਗੈ ਗਇਆ ਨ ਸੋਹੈ ॥੨੧॥</p><p>O Nanak, one who claims to know everything shall not be decorated in the world hereafter. ||21||</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ActsOfGod, post: 202157, member: 18366"] From what I've been able to gather, good works and charity are worthwhile, but their benefit is minuscule when compared to the contemplation of the Naam. Perhaps their value might be as a stepping stone, for Gurbani also tells us that without virtue, there cannot be bhagti/devotional worship. From Japji Sahib: ਤੀਰਥੁ ਤਪੁ ਦਇਆ ਦਤੁ ਦਾਨੁ ॥ Pilgrimages, austere discipline, compassion and charity - ਜੇ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ਤਿਲ ਕਾ ਮਾਨੁ ॥ these, by themselves, bring only an iota of merit. ਸੁਣਿਆ ਮੰਨਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਕੀਤਾ ਭਾਉ ॥ Listening and believing with love and humility in your mind, ਅੰਤਰਗਤਿ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਮਲਿ ਨਾਉ ॥ cleanse yourself with the Name, at the sacred shrine deep within. ਸਭਿ ਗੁਣ ਤੇਰੇ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥ All virtues are Yours, Lord, I have none at all. ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ Without virtue, there is no devotional worship. ਸੁਅਸਤਿ ਆਥਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬਰਮਾਉ ॥ I bow to the Lord of the World, to His Word, to Brahma the Creator. ਸਤਿ ਸੁਹਾਣੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ ॥ He is Beautiful, True and Eternally Joyful. ਕਵਣੁ ਸੁ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਕਵਣ ਥਿਤਿ ਕਵਣੁ ਵਾਰੁ ॥ What was that time, and what was that moment? What was that day, and what was that date? ਕਵਣਿ ਸਿ ਰੁਤੀ ਮਾਹੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਹੋਆ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥ What was that season, and what was that month, when the Universe was created? ਵੇਲ ਨ ਪਾਈਆ ਪੰਡਤੀ ਜਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਲੇਖੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ॥ The Pandits, the religious scholars, cannot find that time, even if it is written in the Puraanas. ਵਖਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਕਾਦੀਆ ਜਿ ਲਿਖਨਿ ਲੇਖੁ ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ॥ That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran. ਥਿਤਿ ਵਾਰੁ ਨਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਜਾਣੈ ਰੁਤਿ ਮਾਹੁ ਨਾ ਕੋਈ ॥ The day and the date are not known to the Yogis, nor is the month or the season. ਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਿਰਠੀ ਕਉ ਸਾਜੇ ਆਪੇ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ॥ The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows. ਕਿਵ ਕਰਿ ਆਖਾ ਕਿਵ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਕਿਉ ਵਰਨੀ ਕਿਵ ਜਾਣਾ ॥ How can we speak of Him? How can we praise Him? How can we describe Him? How can we know Him? ਨਾਨਕ ਆਖਣਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਇਕ ਦੂ ਇਕੁ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥ O Nanak, everyone speaks of Him, each one wiser than the rest. ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ Great is the Master, Great is His Name. Whatever happens is according to His Will. ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਪੌ ਜਾਣੈ ਅਗੈ ਗਇਆ ਨ ਸੋਹੈ ॥੨੧॥ O Nanak, one who claims to know everything shall not be decorated in the world hereafter. ||21|| [/QUOTE]
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"Salvation" Through Faith Or Works?
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