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Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
One Infinite Creator In Sikhism, What Does It Mean?
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<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member15" data-source="post: 162507" data-attributes="member: 17438"><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">My dear brothers Ambarsaria and Prakash peacesignkaur</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">Peace and joy to both of you! </span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">It is true that I cannot read Gurbani, and so therefore my understanding of the Granth is sadly limited to English translations that often, naturally, reflect the thinking of the translator. This is why it is useful to discuss linguistic issues with others to get a broad understanding of different perspectives on a given text.</span></span> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">I believe that the Gurus did not believe in the literal existence of Rama or any other of the Hindu deities. Sikhism broke away from the caste system of Hinduism, its idols, its many gods etc. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">'<em>Dharam</em>' or '<em>Dharma</em>', for example, in Sikhism retains its Sanskrit origin but takes on a very different significance and emphasis within Sikhi from dharam in Hinduism where it generally equates to the quadruple (fourfold) societal division of Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras - to us, the castes. The Guru Granth uproots this whole understanding of 'dharam' and replaces it with one single universal 'dharam' for all human beings irrespective of class, race, gender or religion. I'm no scholar of Gurbani - I cannot read the language - but I do know from my reading of the Granth and commentaries on it that Guru Nanak taught one <em>dharam</em>: </span></span></p><p> </p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">"...<em>eko dharam</em> (<strong>one caste</strong>?)..." </span></span></p> <p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>- <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, p1188</span></span></strong></span></span></p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">"...<em>be they Kshatriyas, Brahmins, Shudras or Vaishyas, the injuction is shared by people of all complexions</em>..." </span></span></p> <p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>- Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, p 747</strong></span></span></p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">"...[<em>Dharam suceeds] when the whole earth becomes one colour [equal</em>]..." </span></span></p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>- Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, p663</strong></span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">In the same way as Nanak used 'dharam' - a concept and word already in use within Indian philosophy - to connect to the people but gave it a new meaning, I think that the Granth makes use of an already existent belief with people of that culture, that of the names of common Hindu deities, to connect to the people as Ambarsaria says and express spiritual truths to them - without thereby granting approval or demonstrating belief in these multiple gods. </span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">In this respect I agree fully with Ambarsaria. Any time I have seen Rama or Krishna referred to, the Gurus have seemed to sublimate and counter the prevalent Hindu notion of these being actual immortal beings, or incarnations of God. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">The references to Hindu deities in the Guru Granth Sahib are metaphorical, not literal:</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><em>"...Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider. Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction. One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself..." </em></span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><strong>- Sri Gru Granth Sahib ji, p<em>1374</em></strong> </span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">I am interested to know brother Prakash, what is your thoughts in this regard? Do you as brother Ambarsaria suggest hold a differing opinion? If so, I ask simply to hear you out as well and consider. Are you a Sanatan Sikh? I know very little about anything of this sort but my understanding (and please do correct me) is that Sanatanism is an attempt to situate Sikhism within Sanatana Vedanta (Hinduism) with the Granth as a fifth Veda? We have the evidence of a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest called Fr Jerome Xavier, who was a contemporary of Guru Arjan and wrote about his execution and of Sikhi back in the early 1600s, and Sikhi is clearly not depicted as a form of Hinduism or even is Hinduism depicted as a coherent, uniform religious tradition. Sikhism, from its very origins, has been recognised as an independent world religion and is such. </span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">On the other hand, in terms of cosmology, I would place myself with brother Prakash in believing that the Granth does teach that this Universe is finite and will come to an end - with God <em>alone</em> being the only Infinite. I do not see the Granth as teaching about an <em>infinite </em>Universe <em><u>in time</u></em>. It does appear to teach about an <em>infinite </em>Universe in <em><u>expanse or size</u></em> as in: </span></span></p><p> </p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">"...<span style="color: black"><em>There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.</em></span></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: center"><em><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: black">If one speaks of them, <strong><u>there is no limit and no end</u></strong>. </span></span></span></em><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: black"><em>There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation. As He commands, so they exist</em>...<em>"</em></span></span></span></p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong>- Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, p8</strong> </span></span></p><p></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">Now, I would dearely like a scholarly minded person to give me a straight translation of this verse from the Gurbani. One reading this could think, "Without end" <em>in time </em><strong>BUT </strong>that is not what the Granth says it is speaking about infinity, limitlessness <em>in size, breadth or expanse. </em></span></span></p><p></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">In time, the Granth tells us - to my humble mind - that this Universe is temporal, finite and has an end just as it had a beginning in God. It will return to <em>Him </em>just as it came from/emerged from <em>Him</em>. </span></span></p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><em>"...The entire creation came from God. As it pleases Him, He creates the expanse. As it pleases Him, He becomes the One and Only again...” </em></span></span></p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px"><strong><em>- </em>Guru Granth Sahib, p.294</strong></span></span></p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><em>“...<u>Nothing</u> of the color and the form of the creation shall remain; the entire expanse is transitory...” </em></span></span></p><p></p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><strong><em>- </em>Guru Granth Sahib, p.999</strong></span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">The use of the word 'transitory' is very important. God is the only <em>Constant. </em>Everything else is <em>ephemeral, fleeting, changeable, prone to decay, like breath, transient, bounded by time and space, existing only to die. </em>Indeed no scripture could have expressed this more adamantly than the Granth for it states quite clearly: </span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">"...<em><span style="font-size: 15px"><u>The world is born to die and is ever destroyed</u></span>; <span style="font-size: 15px">one becomes eternal (only) by clinging to the Guru's Presence</span></em><span style="font-size: 15px">..." </span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-size: 12px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><strong><span style="font-size: 15px">- Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, p448</span></strong> </span></span></p><p> <span style="font-size: 12px"></span></p><p> <span style="font-size: 12px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">It thus goes without saying that one can either trust in transitory things or trust in God, one can either follow the will of one's own fleeting, changeable desires or find satisfaction in the unchanging Will [Hukam] of God. </span></span></p><p> <span style="font-size: 12px"></span></p><p> <span style="font-size: 12px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 12px"></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">And so I find myself for the moment in a kind of 'bardo realm' or 'limbo' between brothers Ambarsaria and Prakash. I appear to agree with both and disagree with both. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">I think that both of you have expressed valid, wise and excellent points. I esteem both of you. I disagree, in certain aspects, with both of you. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">I pray that all of us can reach some kind of concord and hopefully love each other despite our differences of opinion. Unity in Diversity? If we Love, then we are "All born of God and know God". That is the most important thing. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">We have a similar problem in Christianity in that people interpret the biblical text without taking regard of the context and time-period in which the Bible was revealed or posses any true knowledge of the original languages - Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. To this end they come up with all sorts of wacky views such as 'creationism' and 'predestination' and indeed a literal place called 'hell'. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">In fact 'hell' translates into English from a variety of words, one of which is 'gehenna' which in the original text referred to the Valley of Gehonnom, a dumping ground outside the city of Jerusalem which was empty of any life and where in ancient times pagans used to sacrifice people to the gods by burning them with fire. In Jesus' day it was an empty wasteland with nothing but fire and corpses in it. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">And so when Jesus is speaking about 'hell', he is not actually speaking about a place where the souls of deceased people are sent to suffer in terrible torments, but was using the metaphor of an actual earthly place known to his listeners to teach about the emptiness of our lives without God - which he said leads us to a state of mind like unto the Valley of Gehonnom, spiritual deadness, emptiness without desire for God and his Will. This becomes clear when you learn some Koine Greek and actually read the text rather than biased translations. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">As Louis Charles explains: </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">"...<em>Hell is a myth...There is absolutely no word for Hell ever written in the original Aramaic, Greek or Hebrew languages found anywhere in the Bible. There are, however, mistranslations into the English language of different words...The sheol and hades, wrongly rendered hell, actually mean, 'common grave of mankind - the unseen where men go upon death of the physical body - the state of the dead'. Another word mistranslated as Hell is the greek word 'Gehenna' and it was well known in Jesus' day as the Valley of Hinnom (a former place of idol worship turned trash dump outside the City of Jerusalem). Gehenna is indeed a literal place but one that exists on Earth and was used by Jesus to convey a spiritual principle. If we were to visit the region of Gehenna today (which one can), we would not find a Devil or anyone suffering fiery torment. Gehenna - or hell as its wrongly translated - is thus a suffering state of mind due to incorrect thinking</em>..." </span></span></p><p> </p><p>Compare: the disciples ask Jesus <em>“When will the Kingdom of Heaven come?”</em> To which Jesus replies: </p><p> </p><p> </p><p style="text-align: left"><em><span style="font-size: 12px">“...It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying ‘here it is’ or ‘there it is.’ </span></em><em><span style="font-size: 12px">Rather, the kingdom of <strong>heaven is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it</strong>...”</span></em></p><p></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">- Jesus Christ </span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">And finally </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">"...<em>Theories of a final judgement and eternal punishment in flames came from Persian religions like Zoroastrianism. This theory of a place called hell with eternal punishment and fiery torture seeped little by little from Persia into the Jewish culture and belief systems. So by the time we reach the period between the Old and New Testaments, hell had grown in popularity and closely resembles our traditional views today. Jesus would have known about these popular ideas and spoken of them because they were famaliar to the people at the time. But what did Jesus mean when he spoke about 'hell'? When Jesus spoke of hell he actually used the word 'Gehenna'. We translate it as hell in our English translations of the Bible. The word 'gehenna', used twelve times in the New Testament, comes from the Valley of 'Gehinnom'...The Valley saw much bloodshed, beginning with the Caanite worship of the gods Moloch and Baal. These gods demanded the sacrifice of children by passing them through the fire and into the hands of the gods...During times of war, soldiers piled dead bodies in the valley, where they burned...Because of all this, the people referred to Gehenna as the abyss or the accursed valley...Well before the time of Jesus, the Valley was also used as a refuse heap. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night...When Jesus spoke of gehenna his hearers would think of this valley...The passages that mention or allude to hell are in figurative language or parable form. Jesus uses parables as teaching tool to make his main points</em>..." </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">- Sharon L Baker</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">Given that I am continually struggling against misinterpretations and mistranslations of my own scripture, I really sympathise. It is fascinating to me how this would appear to be a universal problem. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-size: 12px">Much love peacesignkaur</span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member15, post: 162507, member: 17438"] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]My dear brothers Ambarsaria and Prakash peacesignkaur[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Peace and joy to both of you! [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]It is true that I cannot read Gurbani, and so therefore my understanding of the Granth is sadly limited to English translations that often, naturally, reflect the thinking of the translator. This is why it is useful to discuss linguistic issues with others to get a broad understanding of different perspectives on a given text.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]I believe that the Gurus did not believe in the literal existence of Rama or any other of the Hindu deities. Sikhism broke away from the caste system of Hinduism, its idols, its many gods etc. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]'[I]Dharam[/I]' or '[I]Dharma[/I]', for example, in Sikhism retains its Sanskrit origin but takes on a very different significance and emphasis within Sikhi from dharam in Hinduism where it generally equates to the quadruple (fourfold) societal division of Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras - to us, the castes. The Guru Granth uproots this whole understanding of 'dharam' and replaces it with one single universal 'dharam' for all human beings irrespective of class, race, gender or religion. I'm no scholar of Gurbani - I cannot read the language - but I do know from my reading of the Granth and commentaries on it that Guru Nanak taught one [I]dharam[/I]: [/SIZE][/FONT] [CENTER][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]"...[I]eko dharam[/I] ([B]one caste[/B]?)..." [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][B]- [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, p1188[/SIZE][/FONT][/B][/SIZE][/FONT][/CENTER] [CENTER][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]"...[I]be they Kshatriyas, Brahmins, Shudras or Vaishyas, the injuction is shared by people of all complexions[/I]..." [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][B]- Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, p 747[/B][/SIZE][/FONT][/CENTER] [CENTER][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]"...[[I]Dharam suceeds] when the whole earth becomes one colour [equal[/I]]..." [/SIZE][/FONT][/CENTER] [CENTER][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][B]- Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, p663[/B][/SIZE][/FONT][/CENTER] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]In the same way as Nanak used 'dharam' - a concept and word already in use within Indian philosophy - to connect to the people but gave it a new meaning, I think that the Granth makes use of an already existent belief with people of that culture, that of the names of common Hindu deities, to connect to the people as Ambarsaria says and express spiritual truths to them - without thereby granting approval or demonstrating belief in these multiple gods. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]In this respect I agree fully with Ambarsaria. Any time I have seen Rama or Krishna referred to, the Gurus have seemed to sublimate and counter the prevalent Hindu notion of these being actual immortal beings, or incarnations of God. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]The references to Hindu deities in the Guru Granth Sahib are metaphorical, not literal:[/SIZE][/FONT] [SIZE=3][FONT=Arial][I]"...Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider. Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction. One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself..." [/I][/FONT][/SIZE] [SIZE=3][FONT=Arial][B]- Sri Gru Granth Sahib ji, p[I]1374[/I][/B] [/FONT][/SIZE] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]I am interested to know brother Prakash, what is your thoughts in this regard? Do you as brother Ambarsaria suggest hold a differing opinion? If so, I ask simply to hear you out as well and consider. Are you a Sanatan Sikh? I know very little about anything of this sort but my understanding (and please do correct me) is that Sanatanism is an attempt to situate Sikhism within Sanatana Vedanta (Hinduism) with the Granth as a fifth Veda? We have the evidence of a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest called Fr Jerome Xavier, who was a contemporary of Guru Arjan and wrote about his execution and of Sikhi back in the early 1600s, and Sikhi is clearly not depicted as a form of Hinduism or even is Hinduism depicted as a coherent, uniform religious tradition. Sikhism, from its very origins, has been recognised as an independent world religion and is such. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]On the other hand, in terms of cosmology, I would place myself with brother Prakash in believing that the Granth does teach that this Universe is finite and will come to an end - with God [I]alone[/I] being the only Infinite. I do not see the Granth as teaching about an [I]infinite [/I]Universe [I][U]in time[/U][/I]. It does appear to teach about an [I]infinite [/I]Universe in [I][U]expanse or size[/U][/I] as in: [/SIZE][/FONT] [CENTER][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]"...[COLOR=black][I]There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT] [I][SIZE=3][FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]If one speaks of them, [B][U]there is no limit and no end[/U][/B]. [/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/I][SIZE=3][FONT=Arial][COLOR=black][I]There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation. As He commands, so they exist[/I]...[I]"[/I][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/CENTER] [CENTER][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][B]- Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, p8[/B] [/SIZE][/FONT][/CENTER] [LEFT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Now, I would dearely like a scholarly minded person to give me a straight translation of this verse from the Gurbani. One reading this could think, "Without end" [I]in time [/I][B]BUT [/B]that is not what the Granth says it is speaking about infinity, limitlessness [I]in size, breadth or expanse. [/I][/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT] [LEFT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]In time, the Granth tells us - to my humble mind - that this Universe is temporal, finite and has an end just as it had a beginning in God. It will return to [I]Him [/I]just as it came from/emerged from [I]Him[/I]. [/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT] [CENTER][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][I]"...The entire creation came from God. As it pleases Him, He creates the expanse. As it pleases Him, He becomes the One and Only again...” [/I][/SIZE][/FONT][/CENTER] [CENTER][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][B][I]- [/I]Guru Granth Sahib, p.294[/B][/SIZE][/FONT][/CENTER] [CENTER][SIZE=3][FONT=Arial][I]“...[U]Nothing[/U] of the color and the form of the creation shall remain; the entire expanse is transitory...” [/I][/FONT][/SIZE][/CENTER] [CENTER][SIZE=3][FONT=Arial][B][I]- [/I]Guru Granth Sahib, p.999[/B][/FONT][/SIZE][/CENTER] [SIZE=3][FONT=Arial]The use of the word 'transitory' is very important. God is the only [I]Constant. [/I]Everything else is [I]ephemeral, fleeting, changeable, prone to decay, like breath, transient, bounded by time and space, existing only to die. [/I]Indeed no scripture could have expressed this more adamantly than the Granth for it states quite clearly: [/FONT][/SIZE] [SIZE=3][FONT=Arial]"...[I][SIZE=4][U]The world is born to die and is ever destroyed[/U][/SIZE]; [SIZE=4]one becomes eternal (only) by clinging to the Guru's Presence[/SIZE][/I][SIZE=4]..." [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][B][SIZE=4]- Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, p448[/SIZE][/B] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]It thus goes without saying that one can either trust in transitory things or trust in God, one can either follow the will of one's own fleeting, changeable desires or find satisfaction in the unchanging Will [Hukam] of God. [/FONT] [/SIZE][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]And so I find myself for the moment in a kind of 'bardo realm' or 'limbo' between brothers Ambarsaria and Prakash. I appear to agree with both and disagree with both. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]I think that both of you have expressed valid, wise and excellent points. I esteem both of you. I disagree, in certain aspects, with both of you. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]I pray that all of us can reach some kind of concord and hopefully love each other despite our differences of opinion. Unity in Diversity? If we Love, then we are "All born of God and know God". That is the most important thing. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]We have a similar problem in Christianity in that people interpret the biblical text without taking regard of the context and time-period in which the Bible was revealed or posses any true knowledge of the original languages - Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. To this end they come up with all sorts of wacky views such as 'creationism' and 'predestination' and indeed a literal place called 'hell'. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]In fact 'hell' translates into English from a variety of words, one of which is 'gehenna' which in the original text referred to the Valley of Gehonnom, a dumping ground outside the city of Jerusalem which was empty of any life and where in ancient times pagans used to sacrifice people to the gods by burning them with fire. In Jesus' day it was an empty wasteland with nothing but fire and corpses in it. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]And so when Jesus is speaking about 'hell', he is not actually speaking about a place where the souls of deceased people are sent to suffer in terrible torments, but was using the metaphor of an actual earthly place known to his listeners to teach about the emptiness of our lives without God - which he said leads us to a state of mind like unto the Valley of Gehonnom, spiritual deadness, emptiness without desire for God and his Will. This becomes clear when you learn some Koine Greek and actually read the text rather than biased translations. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]As Louis Charles explains: [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]"...[I]Hell is a myth...There is absolutely no word for Hell ever written in the original Aramaic, Greek or Hebrew languages found anywhere in the Bible. There are, however, mistranslations into the English language of different words...The sheol and hades, wrongly rendered hell, actually mean, 'common grave of mankind - the unseen where men go upon death of the physical body - the state of the dead'. Another word mistranslated as Hell is the greek word 'Gehenna' and it was well known in Jesus' day as the Valley of Hinnom (a former place of idol worship turned trash dump outside the City of Jerusalem). Gehenna is indeed a literal place but one that exists on Earth and was used by Jesus to convey a spiritual principle. If we were to visit the region of Gehenna today (which one can), we would not find a Devil or anyone suffering fiery torment. Gehenna - or hell as its wrongly translated - is thus a suffering state of mind due to incorrect thinking[/I]..." [/SIZE][/FONT] Compare: the disciples ask Jesus [I]“When will the Kingdom of Heaven come?”[/I] To which Jesus replies: [LEFT][I][SIZE=3]“...It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying ‘here it is’ or ‘there it is.’ [/SIZE][/I][I][SIZE=3]Rather, the kingdom of [B]heaven is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it[/B]...”[/SIZE][/I][/LEFT] [LEFT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]- Jesus Christ [/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]And finally [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]"...[I]Theories of a final judgement and eternal punishment in flames came from Persian religions like Zoroastrianism. This theory of a place called hell with eternal punishment and fiery torture seeped little by little from Persia into the Jewish culture and belief systems. So by the time we reach the period between the Old and New Testaments, hell had grown in popularity and closely resembles our traditional views today. Jesus would have known about these popular ideas and spoken of them because they were famaliar to the people at the time. But what did Jesus mean when he spoke about 'hell'? When Jesus spoke of hell he actually used the word 'Gehenna'. We translate it as hell in our English translations of the Bible. The word 'gehenna', used twelve times in the New Testament, comes from the Valley of 'Gehinnom'...The Valley saw much bloodshed, beginning with the Caanite worship of the gods Moloch and Baal. These gods demanded the sacrifice of children by passing them through the fire and into the hands of the gods...During times of war, soldiers piled dead bodies in the valley, where they burned...Because of all this, the people referred to Gehenna as the abyss or the accursed valley...Well before the time of Jesus, the Valley was also used as a refuse heap. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night...When Jesus spoke of gehenna his hearers would think of this valley...The passages that mention or allude to hell are in figurative language or parable form. Jesus uses parables as teaching tool to make his main points[/I]..." [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]- Sharon L Baker[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Given that I am continually struggling against misinterpretations and mistranslations of my own scripture, I really sympathise. It is fascinating to me how this would appear to be a universal problem. [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Much love peacesignkaur[/SIZE][/FONT] [/QUOTE]
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