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Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
One Drink Too Many? A Discussion Of Alcohol And Sikhi
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<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 149274" data-attributes="member: 586"><p>Ambarsaria ji,</p><p></p><p></p><p>Good to be conversing with you again. 0<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Intention is there in each moment of experience, in other words, there is no moment when intention does not arise. It can however be good, bad or neither depending on the particular type of consciousness which it accompanies. </p><p></p><p>When one decides to drink alcohol, this is desire, and when under its influence, again it must be desire most of the time. Good exists during moments such as generosity, morality, kindness, compassion, understanding, respect and so on, and these can arise at any time at all. When under the influence of alcohol however, if good does arise, this will be *in spite of* having taken the alcohol. So we must be very careful not to come to a conclusion that perhaps it is because of the alcohol that good arose, since this would most definitely be a wrong understanding. </p><p></p><p>What no doubt does arise are much ignorance and much attachment. And it is due to the influence of wrong understanding that certain manifestations of these are sometimes mistaken for good. This gets worse when like this man named Gurdjieff, because of the kind of misperception and wrong understanding, one starts to believe that it may be good to take alcohol within limits and controlled. And the consequence of this is enslavement of a heavy kind. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Good and evil comes down not to outward action, but the state of mind. In the example you give, had the person drunk and got exposed, this may or may not have resulted in a decision to stop cheating or womanizing. What however is clear is that if he does end up stopping these things, but not as a result of understanding nor due to moral shame, but instead due to fear, nothing good comes out of this. Perhaps in the eyes of ‘society’ and those around him who have their own interest in mind, he is seen as good, but this is not the criterion to consider such kind of thing. After all this would be exactly the same as the praise he’d get for not drinking as in what you state, "he is so good, he doesn't drink!" Because in reality, the ignorance continues, and attachment and aversion simply changes objects and manifests in other forms. Perhaps even in the decision to pray and go to the Gurdwara regularly, which I think you’d agree is something none of us should be fooled by. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That could be due to the tendency for restraint which as I said above, would arise in spite of the drinking. And remember, that it is never *the person* that good or evil is. Good and bad refer to states of mind. Drinking alcohol is motivated by attachment, and refraining from drinking is a training rule. So none of this involves pointing a finger at others. Indeed we should not judge people; however neither should we make the mistake of judging an evil act as being good. </p><p></p><p>Why should one have a problem with the idea that ignorance, attachment and aversion thrives and good is extremely rare by comparison in the world today? Do you not see evidence of this every day? That so many people drink is not unexpected. Pointing a finger at them is not going to help. On the other hand however, it must be worse if we actually condone drinking to any degree. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Alcohol as medicine is another matter, although I question the claim that it helps the body get warm, but this is another topic. Drinking as medicine (and only a little would be required in this case) is not the same as drinking to experience pleasure. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Thank you for saying it Ambarsaria ji.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 149274, member: 586"] Ambarsaria ji, Good to be conversing with you again. 0:) Intention is there in each moment of experience, in other words, there is no moment when intention does not arise. It can however be good, bad or neither depending on the particular type of consciousness which it accompanies. When one decides to drink alcohol, this is desire, and when under its influence, again it must be desire most of the time. Good exists during moments such as generosity, morality, kindness, compassion, understanding, respect and so on, and these can arise at any time at all. When under the influence of alcohol however, if good does arise, this will be *in spite of* having taken the alcohol. So we must be very careful not to come to a conclusion that perhaps it is because of the alcohol that good arose, since this would most definitely be a wrong understanding. What no doubt does arise are much ignorance and much attachment. And it is due to the influence of wrong understanding that certain manifestations of these are sometimes mistaken for good. This gets worse when like this man named Gurdjieff, because of the kind of misperception and wrong understanding, one starts to believe that it may be good to take alcohol within limits and controlled. And the consequence of this is enslavement of a heavy kind. Good and evil comes down not to outward action, but the state of mind. In the example you give, had the person drunk and got exposed, this may or may not have resulted in a decision to stop cheating or womanizing. What however is clear is that if he does end up stopping these things, but not as a result of understanding nor due to moral shame, but instead due to fear, nothing good comes out of this. Perhaps in the eyes of ‘society’ and those around him who have their own interest in mind, he is seen as good, but this is not the criterion to consider such kind of thing. After all this would be exactly the same as the praise he’d get for not drinking as in what you state, "he is so good, he doesn't drink!" Because in reality, the ignorance continues, and attachment and aversion simply changes objects and manifests in other forms. Perhaps even in the decision to pray and go to the Gurdwara regularly, which I think you’d agree is something none of us should be fooled by. That could be due to the tendency for restraint which as I said above, would arise in spite of the drinking. And remember, that it is never *the person* that good or evil is. Good and bad refer to states of mind. Drinking alcohol is motivated by attachment, and refraining from drinking is a training rule. So none of this involves pointing a finger at others. Indeed we should not judge people; however neither should we make the mistake of judging an evil act as being good. Why should one have a problem with the idea that ignorance, attachment and aversion thrives and good is extremely rare by comparison in the world today? Do you not see evidence of this every day? That so many people drink is not unexpected. Pointing a finger at them is not going to help. On the other hand however, it must be worse if we actually condone drinking to any degree. Alcohol as medicine is another matter, although I question the claim that it helps the body get warm, but this is another topic. Drinking as medicine (and only a little would be required in this case) is not the same as drinking to experience pleasure. Thank you for saying it Ambarsaria ji. [/QUOTE]
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One Drink Too Many? A Discussion Of Alcohol And Sikhi
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