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Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Interfaith Dialogues
My Thoughts On (a) God
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<blockquote data-quote="Requiem" data-source="post: 195968" data-attributes="member: 20260"><p>Apologies for the late reply, I had an unexpected personal matter which needed attending to. Hopefully you’re still active and will see this.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">According to this reference: </span></span></span></span><a href="http://dict.hinkhoj.com/words/meaning-of-%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BE-in-english.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: #006DA8"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">http://dict.hinkhoj.com/words/meanin...n-english.html</span></span></span></span></a><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">"Karta" means "Doer".</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">According to Dr. Santokh Singh (Sikh scholar) in '<em>English Transliteration and Interpretation of Nitnaym Baanees, Sikh Prayers for English Speaking Sikh Youth</em>', "Purakh" means "all-pervasive".</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black"></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">"Karta Purakh" literally means "all-pervasive Doer". Guru Nanak, in the Guru Granth Sahib, says "Your All-pervading creative nature cannot be estimated." I have always taken "Karta Purakh" to mean that Ik Oankar is the amalgamation of the creative forces which flow through the Universe and beyond.</span></span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">If the person reading it is pre-disposed to believe in a supernatural creator, then to them, Karta Purakh will give the impression of a supernatural creator. But “all-pervasive Doer” does not demand the existence of a God which operates outside the confines of nature.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I disagree with the notion that Sikh philosophy rests on the existence of a supernatural creator. I have been an ardent atheist since breaking away from my birth religion and I have yet to come across anything in the Guru Granth Sahib which is useless/meaningless without a supernatural creator in the picture.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>You don't "<em>believe in</em>" nature?</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">An issue of semantics, is it not? Replace the word “God” with “entity”. If the universe has always existed, then that’s God for me. The thing is though, with recent advancements in quantum mechanics, our understanding of physics itself is on the verge of collapse. The universe may be God, but the universe isn’t a boring sea of gas, liquid and solid. The matter which makes it up is not solid- at a fundamental level, everything is energy and this changes everything, because it opens the door to a whole host of possibilities which have never been considered in the past. God could very well be the universe because we aren’t even close to understanding what the universe is and how it operates (at a fundamental level).</span></span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">Quantum theories are now suggesting that outer space may not actually be a vacuum. One theory suggests that it borrows/conserves energy from surrounding areas and forms anti-matter. The most radical theory suggests that it is full of a living, pulsating essence that science is only beginning to understand.</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p> <span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">It is so new that scientists have yet to agree on a single term. Some are calling it a ‘quantum hologram’- very technical sounding name, but the gist of the theory is that the universe is a dream and everything around you is a projection. It sounds extremely bizarre and would have been dismissed a long time ago, had it not been for one fact: the Mathematics works. Calculations performed by Japanese researcher Yoshifumi Hyakutake of Ibaraki University back up the theory and are actually simpler than other models of quantum mechanics. If this is confirmed, then it means that reality as we know it may be the result of processes occurring on some other plane or surface.</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p> <span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">What could that other plane/surface be? Well, one of the most popular suggestions is that consciousness is the base of all reality. That we are all essentially the same consciousness, experiencing itself subjectively. </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">Dr. Edgar Mitchell, a former NASA astronaut, is calling it “nature’s mind”. Stephen Hawking calls it “the mind of God”.</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">I</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">n 1944, the father of quantum physics, Max Planck, identified the existence of this underlying field and he called it “the matrix” (that’s where the name of that movie comes from). He said that underlying everything we see (our bodies included), everything we see around us in the world, underneath it all there must be the existence of a “conscious and intelligent mind” (his own words). He said that this mind is the matrix of all matter.</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p> <span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">Now, I’m not claiming that this is it and we've got it all figured out, that there is a conscious mind underlying everything we see in the universe. Au contraire, my point is that advancements in quantum mechanics have all but shattered our understanding of reality and physics, and the possibility of the universe being God itself is perfectly<span style="color: #333333"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"> valid. </span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: #333333"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">If quantum physics has taught us anything, it's that the universe is much more bizarre than we could have ever imagined.</span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #333333"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I have no idea, I find it strange as well, considering that none of the Gurus even used the word “Waheguru”in the SGGS.</span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #333333"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Tbh, the more I’ve read the SGGS, the more and more I have become convinced that the Gurus would not have approved of Sikhs sitting around chanting “Waheguru”, or at the very least using it as the <em>only</em> form of meditation.</span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #333333"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Gurbani is pretty clear that Akaal-Purakh has an endless number of names. I don’t understand what makes“Waheguru” more special than the others. </span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #333333"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Actually, the funny thing is that Gurbani states on numerous occasions that this “chanting” on the Lord’s name is supposed to be with the soul and heart, without any sound from the mouth. I get the impression that a lot of Sikhs have turned “Waheguru” into a magic mantra, which is ironic, because the Gurus did not believe in magic mantras lol.</span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #333333"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">The thing with Gurbani is, every line needs to be interpreted in the context of the Shabad from which it originates, and every Shabad needs to be interpreted in conjunction with the rest of the poetry in SGGS. Single lines are very easy to twist and often times, even entire Shabads may be misleading if you don’t take into account the rest of the Bani of the Gurus. I equate SGGS to a puzzle; you only get a clear image of the Gurus’ message if you put all the pieces together and look at the bigger picture.</span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #333333"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I am vehemently opposed to chanting “Waheguru” over and over again. I have no problem if individual Sikhs like doing it, I just disagree with the proposition that it is an essential part of Sikhi. You can be a Sikh and never chant “Waheguru” in your life. I have experience with Buddhism, I looked into it before discovering Sikhi and I prefer the Buddhist form of meditation over the chanting of “Waheguru”.I don’t think it makes me any less of a Sikh...</span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #333333"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Oh, but I do think “Waheguru”is an interesting word. It breaks up into this:</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #333333"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Wah-Guru. From what I’ve been told, “Wah” is used as an exclamation of awe and wonder in the Punjabi language. The English equivalent would be “Wow”. Waheguru literally means “Wondrous Guru”.</span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #333333"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">A</span></span><span style="color: #333333"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">s I’ve already mentioned in my last post:</span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #001F4B"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">"Salvation is not reached in an ethereal sense (i.e. "do this and you'll be rewarded" sense), but rather </span></span><strong>an inner peace and tranquility of humbling oneself against the greater universe is an experience</strong> that allows one to come to terms with their own diminutive stature with regards to the universe. Once we have broken those foundations of ego and pride, then we can begin to build ourselves back up."</p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #001F4B"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Einstein said:</span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #001F4B"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">“</span></span><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.</span>”</span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">This is the foundation of Sikhism. If you read through the SGGS, you will encounter profound humility from the Gurus and the Bhagats that leaves them in awe ("wah") of the ultimate teacher/universe ("guru").</span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">With this in mind, meditating on “Waheguru” may not actually be such a bad thing, provided that it invokes feelings of humility and awe and isn’t just done for ritualistic purposes. It's like, most science students, especially the ones in physics, are arrogant jerks in freshman year, but towards their senior years and eventually graduate school, they realize how insignificant everything really is and tend to humble out. Some of the humblest people you will encounter </span><em><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">are</span></em> scientists because they see the world in a similar way how non-scientist Sikhs see it.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Ardas is not present in the SGGS and it has evolved over time</span> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'">in order for it to encompass the feats, accomplishments, and feelings of all generations of Sikhs within its lines.</span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">For this reason, I don’t view Ardas as “asking” God for what I want. I see it as a time to remember and reflect upon the achievements of Sikhs in the past, to not forget the sacrifices they made for the Panth and stand in solidarity with my fellow Sikhs. Ardas is not in the SGGS and so it is not a part of Sikh philosophy, if the Gurus thought that God granted wishes then they would have put the Ardas in SGGS. Why leave out something so important? To me, it is a show of unity.</span></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica'">If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.</span><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica'"> (Albert Einstein).</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica'">Are you really telling me that you'd start "killing, torturing, stealing and doing other bad things" without a celestial dictator monitoring your every move? If so, then why are you so opposed to the idea of a sky god? If the old man abrahamic god in the sky is what it would take to keep you in line, then surely, his existence is a good thing. If you need the threat of punishment to treat other people with kindness and respect, then may I suggest you look into Judaism, Christianity and Islam?</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>I beg to differ.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica'">“All bachelors are unmarried.” As long as the definition of all those words remains the same, so too will the validity of the statement.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica'">2 + 2=4 As long as the value of those numbers and the meaning of the plus and equal signs remains the same, so too will the validity of that statement.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica'"></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica'">“God is Truth.” What is “Truth”? The above examples give us insight into this question. Truth= eternal and everlasting. It does not change. You can’t be a bachelor and married at the same time. 2 + 2 will never equal 5.</span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">We are cyclic and undergo births and deaths (like human life, solar systems, universes, etc). We do not last forever. The Gurus tell us that God is ajooni or acyclic, beyond these cycles of birth and death.</span></span> </span></span>To say that God is Truth is a simpler way of saying that God is eternal/ timeless, beyond any cycle of birth and death. This is explained in various part of the SGGS...</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">Please don’t tell me you think it is a baseless assumption/a large stretch for me to suggest that there exists life in the universe which exceeds our intelligence (on the scale of the arbitrarily defined measure of intelligence). The sheer size of the universe means there is a greater chance of you winning the jackpot a trillion times in a row than there is of us being the most ‘intelligent’ life forms in the universe.</span></span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">In any case, if you are still not convinced, then perhaps Neil deGrasse Tyson will be able to change your mind:</span></span></span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeJoVeKSsyA" target="_blank"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeJoVeKSsyA</span></span></a></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">He is an award-winning astrophysicist and cosmologist, one of the most respected members of the scientific community; hopefully you give some weight to his opinion...</span></span></span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>What? If God exists, then He/She/It has to be the most advanced entity in existence. My point was that such an advanced entity (if it is sentient) isn't going to give a damn about something like sexual orientation.</p><p> </p><p>I don't think God cares how you live your life...</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black">No, this is nothing like “man in clouds abrahamic image of God”. My background is Abrahamic and my parents practice their religion very strictly. I was raised to have belief in that God, I mean this with all due respect but I think I am in a bit of a better position to know what is and isn’t like the man in the clouds version of God.</span></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">Alright, don’t take my word for it. Maybe <strong><em>Stephen Hawking</em></strong> will be able to change your mind:</span></span></span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #333333"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">"Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind. <strong>I'm now glad that our search for understanding will never come to an end, and that we will always have the challenge of new discovery.</strong> Without it, we would stagnate. Godel’s theorem ensured there would always be a job for mathematicians. I think M theory will do the same for physicists. I'm sure Dirac would have approved."</span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><a href="http://www.hawking.org.uk/godel-and-the-end-of-physics.html" target="_blank"><span style="color: #0072c6">http://www.hawking.org.uk/godel-and-the-end-of-physics.html</span></a></span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">You call it “defeatist”, I call it realistic. </span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>In my experience, most Sakhis are hogwash. I’ve heard at least 4 separate accounts of how Guru Gobind Singh died. You’d think that there’d be a clear historical account for something so important, but alas, I suppose it is too much to ask.</p><p></p><p> </p><p>Also, if Guru Nanak did actually speak with God, why is it not in the SGGS? Keep in mind that there are important historical events preserved in the SGGS- Siddh Gosht, Oankaar, Babur’s invasion of India etc... Surely, if Guru Nanak had actually (literally) been summoned to the ‘Court of the Lord’, something of such significance would surely have been mentioned in the SGGS. You don't just speak with the Creator of the universe and then not write anything about it...</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Well, considering that Guru Nanak's own writing is preserved in the Guru Granth Sahib (the <em><strong>only</strong></em> authentic source of Nanakian philosophy), would you mind showing me where in the GGS he claimed to have spoken with God? I must have missed that part...</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Who is claiming that God’s existence cannot be proven with modern Science and Mathematics? Modern Science and Mathematics are probably the most powerful tools we have to able to properly define what ‘God’ is.</p><p></p><p> </p><p>If ‘God’ is present in creation (as the SGGS says), then why cannot we not further our understanding of God by furthering our understanding of the reality of our universe?</p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">The answers of the world aren't contained in a zero-sum proposition. Science is a useful rational tool. The SGGS is my ethical and spiritual authority. My desire to understand my place in reality encourages me to investigate the majesty of the universe. I can use scientific methods to do this as well. This is embracing the capability of being a human, the best shot we get at reaching oneness with Waheguru</span>. You make it sound like science and Sikhi are at odds with each other. I think they go hand-in-hand. Sikhi is a science of the mind and realization of the self, the two fill distinct niches in my life.</p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">“Incomprehensible” and “inaccessible” are used to make a different point in the SGGS. </span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: black">“Incomprehensible” implies an inability to fully comprehend and appreciate just how vast the cosmos really are (especially if our Universe is but one in an ocean of multiverses), along with the forces which govern the entire thing. This concept is briefly touched upon in Japji Sahib, in which Guru Nanak mentions how you could spend your entire life trying to fathom the wonders of Ik Oankar and creation but it would all be in vain, you wouldn't even come close. The only way to understand Ik Onkar is to "walk in the way of His Will" (which is just a fancy way of saying that you should live in consonance with your fellow creation).</span></span></span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: black">This is not to say that science can't help us out; it just means that our human brains will never be able to fully appreciate the majesty of our universe. In my experience, this is true. The vastness of the universe really is incomprehensible. Ask a scientist, if you don't believe me.</span></span></span></span></span></p><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: black">“Inaccessible" is used to downplay the notion of prophet hood and 'chooseness'. These beliefs are fundamental pillars of Abrahamaic theology and thought. But the idea of God (literally) sending down messengers to spread a message or that one group of people is favored over the rest is the antithesis of Sikh philosophy. According to the Guru Granth Sahib, every individual has spiritual potential and can connect with God without having to follow someone else's rules and regulations. Yes, we can all realize Akaal-Purakh in our lives (this is why Guru Nanak says he "knows God but cannot describe Him", because it is an individual experience), but we don't believe Akaal-Purakh communicates with humans and tells them to write little rule books (= "inaccessible").</span></span></span></span></span></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Alright, I can only speak for myself here. I don’t think you should ‘believe’ in the SGGS for the sake of believing, in fact I think blind faith is responsible for a lot of the problems the world faces in the 21stcentury, particularly blind faith in religions.</p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black"><span style="font-size: 10px"><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">I’m a </span></span><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">social worker; I find working with people to be extremely rewarding. I've been volunteering at nursing/senior centers for years and love listening to their life stories. People near the end of their lives and who have seen the world for what it really is have so much to share, but most youths these days are too busy playing video games, getting drunk and going clubbing. I swear you'd learn more about life in one day spent with a senior who has traveled the world than you would in 5 years of High School. </span></span></span></span></span><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black"><span style="font-size: 10px">Spending time with them and listening to their stories is one of the major reasons I decided to become a Sikh. The wisdom the Gurus put into the Granth is very similar to what you'd hear from most wise seniors. The teachings of the Gurus are pragmatic and have real-world value. My favorite question to ask is "if you could go back in time to when you were 18 and do everything all over again, what would you do differently?" And the responses are always very similar. There is a reoccurring theme. The overwhelming amount of responses are along the lines of "I wish I had spent more time with my family and loved ones, I wish I had had more confidence in myself and spent less time trying to please others, I wish I had not valued money and material goods as much as I did, I wish I had had a more positive outlook on life and wasn't so negative", and the biggest one of all, "I wish I had spent more time making the world a better place." Reading the Guru Granth Sahib ji, I have found that this is <strong>EXACTLY</strong> what the Gurus encouraged us to do.</span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black"><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #505050"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black"><span style="font-size: 10px">At the end of life, nobody cares about how many sexual partners they've had, how large their house was, how fancy their car, how much money they had, only the little things seem to matter. Being with loved ones (the Gurus encouraged family/community life), having a positive attitude (chardikala), having inner-strength/confidence and not trying to please others (finding God within) and doing good for others (vand chakko/the 3 pillars of Sikhism), that is what matters and this is all found within the Guru Granth Sahib.</span></span></span></span></span></p><p> </p><p>Buuuuut, I think everybody needs their own reason for practicing Sikhi. That is part of mine. I do not believe in blind faith so I don't think you should take my word for it. Read the Guru Granth Sahib for yourself and make up your own mind. And if in the end you decide that it isn't for you, that this is not how you want to live your life, then fair play good man, you have every right to leave Sikhi if it will make you happier. I assure you that there's no punishment waiting for apostates in the afterlife. </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Yes, I am. The relevancy of Nanakian philosophy does not depend on the existence of a supernatural creator. </p><p> </p><p>If you want, you can type out the Mool Mantar and tell me which part(s) of it are invalid without a supernatural deity. Please don't forget to explain your reasoning.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Once again, I completely disagree. I don't think this is really even up for debate, I am living proof that your statement is false. I do not believe in God but that doesn't take away from the relevancy of Guru Granth Sahib one bit for me. I've also come across quite a few other Sikhs who do not believe in God but still practice Sikhi because they have also come to the conclusion that GGS is not dependent on God's existence.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>This has already been addressed. Of course we can resolve the issue of whether a supernatural god exists or not with science. Science can even tell us the most likely nature of god. Nowhere in the GGS does it state otherwise.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Once again, it is realist, not defeatist... </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I disagree. I was raised to believe in the abrahamic god, and Waheguru is completely different.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I am sorry to hear about your situation, and I completely understand where you are coming from. I was raised in a religious household with very strict parents. During my early teenage years, I began questioning my birth religion and after years of research and deliberation, I ended up leaving it. I kept it a secret from my parents for a very long time (years) and I understand your frustration, that feeling of them breathing down your neck and making you do things that your heart isn't completely set on doing, only someone who has experienced it first hand knows just how bad it can be and I symphasize with you 100%.</p><p> </p><p>I mean this with no disrespect intended, but I think your parents were completely wrong in their treatment of you. You should not be forced to wear a turban or grow your beard if that is not what you want to do. Likewise, the fact that (as you stated) you have limited knowledge of Sikh philosophy and Gurbani leads me to believe that your family are mainly just cultural/ritualistic Sikhs. I think most are these days, as long as the kids wear turbans, grow their hair, go to Gurdwara a few times a month, they think everything is all good. Very few families seem to bother teaching their kid the philosophy behind it all and so I understand your frustration at having to wear a turban/keep a beard when you don't really understand the point of doing it.</p><p> </p><p>And even if you had been taught the philosophy, it still should have been your choice to cut your hair, if that is what you wanted to do. The Gurus called Sikhi "the game of love." There is no love involved when you are forced to do things against your will.</p><p> </p><p>Since this is a big decision, I will suggest that you really delve into Sikh philosophy (as enshrined in Guru Granth Sahib) before deciding what to do. Forget about everything your parents or anybody else may have taught you about Sikhi. Don't believe in God? Well there's nothing wrong with that, it doesn't make you a bad person and I assure you, you're not the only Sikh who does not believe in a supernatural creator.</p><p> </p><p>The interesting thing is that the more I learn about science, the more I learn about Sikhi. I'm a big science geek and it has shaped my understanding of Sikhi more than anything else. Read the Guru Granth Sahib with your own heart and see if there is something in there for you.</p><p> </p><p>Good luck my friend.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Requiem, post: 195968, member: 20260"] Apologies for the late reply, I had an unexpected personal matter which needed attending to. Hopefully you’re still active and will see this. [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]According to this reference: [/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][URL="http://dict.hinkhoj.com/words/meaning-of-%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BE-in-english.html"][COLOR=#006DA8][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]http://dict.hinkhoj.com/words/meanin...n-english.html[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]"Karta" means "Doer". According to Dr. Santokh Singh (Sikh scholar) in '[I]English Transliteration and Interpretation of Nitnaym Baanees, Sikh Prayers for English Speaking Sikh Youth[/I]', "Purakh" means "all-pervasive". "Karta Purakh" literally means "all-pervasive Doer". Guru Nanak, in the Guru Granth Sahib, says "Your All-pervading creative nature cannot be estimated." I have always taken "Karta Purakh" to mean that Ik Oankar is the amalgamation of the creative forces which flow through the Universe and beyond.[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]If the person reading it is pre-disposed to believe in a supernatural creator, then to them, Karta Purakh will give the impression of a supernatural creator. But “all-pervasive Doer” does not demand the existence of a God which operates outside the confines of nature.[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][/COLOR] I disagree with the notion that Sikh philosophy rests on the existence of a supernatural creator. I have been an ardent atheist since breaking away from my birth religion and I have yet to come across anything in the Guru Granth Sahib which is useless/meaningless without a supernatural creator in the picture. You don't "[I]believe in[/I]" nature? [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]An issue of semantics, is it not? Replace the word “God” with “entity”. If the universe has always existed, then that’s God for me. The thing is though, with recent advancements in quantum mechanics, our understanding of physics itself is on the verge of collapse. The universe may be God, but the universe isn’t a boring sea of gas, liquid and solid. The matter which makes it up is not solid- at a fundamental level, everything is energy and this changes everything, because it opens the door to a whole host of possibilities which have never been considered in the past. God could very well be the universe because we aren’t even close to understanding what the universe is and how it operates (at a fundamental level).[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]Quantum theories are now suggesting that outer space may not actually be a vacuum. One theory suggests that it borrows/conserves energy from surrounding areas and forms anti-matter. The most radical theory suggests that it is full of a living, pulsating essence that science is only beginning to understand.[/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]It is so new that scientists have yet to agree on a single term. Some are calling it a ‘quantum hologram’- very technical sounding name, but the gist of the theory is that the universe is a dream and everything around you is a projection. It sounds extremely bizarre and would have been dismissed a long time ago, had it not been for one fact: the Mathematics works. Calculations performed by Japanese researcher Yoshifumi Hyakutake of Ibaraki University back up the theory and are actually simpler than other models of quantum mechanics. If this is confirmed, then it means that reality as we know it may be the result of processes occurring on some other plane or surface.[/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]What could that other plane/surface be? Well, one of the most popular suggestions is that consciousness is the base of all reality. That we are all essentially the same consciousness, experiencing itself subjectively. [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]Dr. Edgar Mitchell, a former NASA astronaut, is calling it “nature’s mind”. Stephen Hawking calls it “the mind of God”.[/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]I[/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]n 1944, the father of quantum physics, Max Planck, identified the existence of this underlying field and he called it “the matrix” (that’s where the name of that movie comes from). He said that underlying everything we see (our bodies included), everything we see around us in the world, underneath it all there must be the existence of a “conscious and intelligent mind” (his own words). He said that this mind is the matrix of all matter.[/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]Now, I’m not claiming that this is it and we've got it all figured out, that there is a conscious mind underlying everything we see in the universe. Au contraire, my point is that advancements in quantum mechanics have all but shattered our understanding of reality and physics, and the possibility of the universe being God itself is perfectly[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana] valid. [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]If quantum physics has taught us anything, it's that the universe is much more bizarre than we could have ever imagined.[/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]I have no idea, I find it strange as well, considering that none of the Gurus even used the word “Waheguru”in the SGGS.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Tbh, the more I’ve read the SGGS, the more and more I have become convinced that the Gurus would not have approved of Sikhs sitting around chanting “Waheguru”, or at the very least using it as the [I]only[/I] form of meditation.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Gurbani is pretty clear that Akaal-Purakh has an endless number of names. I don’t understand what makes“Waheguru” more special than the others. [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Actually, the funny thing is that Gurbani states on numerous occasions that this “chanting” on the Lord’s name is supposed to be with the soul and heart, without any sound from the mouth. I get the impression that a lot of Sikhs have turned “Waheguru” into a magic mantra, which is ironic, because the Gurus did not believe in magic mantras lol.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]The thing with Gurbani is, every line needs to be interpreted in the context of the Shabad from which it originates, and every Shabad needs to be interpreted in conjunction with the rest of the poetry in SGGS. Single lines are very easy to twist and often times, even entire Shabads may be misleading if you don’t take into account the rest of the Bani of the Gurus. I equate SGGS to a puzzle; you only get a clear image of the Gurus’ message if you put all the pieces together and look at the bigger picture.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]I am vehemently opposed to chanting “Waheguru” over and over again. I have no problem if individual Sikhs like doing it, I just disagree with the proposition that it is an essential part of Sikhi. You can be a Sikh and never chant “Waheguru” in your life. I have experience with Buddhism, I looked into it before discovering Sikhi and I prefer the Buddhist form of meditation over the chanting of “Waheguru”.I don’t think it makes me any less of a Sikh...[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Oh, but I do think “Waheguru”is an interesting word. It breaks up into this:[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Wah-Guru. From what I’ve been told, “Wah” is used as an exclamation of awe and wonder in the Punjabi language. The English equivalent would be “Wow”. Waheguru literally means “Wondrous Guru”.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]A[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]s I’ve already mentioned in my last post:[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#001F4B][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#001F4B][FONT=Verdana]"Salvation is not reached in an ethereal sense (i.e. "do this and you'll be rewarded" sense), but rather [/FONT][/COLOR][B]an inner peace and tranquility of humbling oneself against the greater universe is an experience[/B] that allows one to come to terms with their own diminutive stature with regards to the universe. Once we have broken those foundations of ego and pride, then we can begin to build ourselves back up." [COLOR=#001F4B][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#001F4B][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#001F4B][FONT=Verdana]Einstein said:[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#001F4B][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#001F4B][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#001F4B][FONT=Verdana]“[/FONT][/COLOR][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Arial]The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.[/FONT]”[/FONT] [FONT=Arial][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]This is the foundation of Sikhism. If you read through the SGGS, you will encounter profound humility from the Gurus and the Bhagats that leaves them in awe ("wah") of the ultimate teacher/universe ("guru").[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]With this in mind, meditating on “Waheguru” may not actually be such a bad thing, provided that it invokes feelings of humility and awe and isn’t just done for ritualistic purposes. It's like, most science students, especially the ones in physics, are arrogant jerks in freshman year, but towards their senior years and eventually graduate school, they realize how insignificant everything really is and tend to humble out. Some of the humblest people you will encounter [/FONT][I][FONT=Verdana]are[/FONT][/I] scientists because they see the world in a similar way how non-scientist Sikhs see it. [FONT=Verdana]Ardas is not present in the SGGS and it has evolved over time[/FONT][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][FONT=Arial]in order for it to encompass the feats, accomplishments, and feelings of all generations of Sikhs within its lines.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial][/FONT] [FONT=Arial][/FONT] [FONT=Arial]For this reason, I don’t view Ardas as “asking” God for what I want. I see it as a time to remember and reflect upon the achievements of Sikhs in the past, to not forget the sacrifices they made for the Panth and stand in solidarity with my fellow Sikhs. Ardas is not in the SGGS and so it is not a part of Sikh philosophy, if the Gurus thought that God granted wishes then they would have put the Ardas in SGGS. Why leave out something so important? To me, it is a show of unity.[/FONT] [FONT=Helvetica]If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica] (Albert Einstein).[/FONT] [FONT=Helvetica][/FONT] [FONT=Helvetica]Are you really telling me that you'd start "killing, torturing, stealing and doing other bad things" without a celestial dictator monitoring your every move? If so, then why are you so opposed to the idea of a sky god? If the old man abrahamic god in the sky is what it would take to keep you in line, then surely, his existence is a good thing. If you need the threat of punishment to treat other people with kindness and respect, then may I suggest you look into Judaism, Christianity and Islam?[/FONT] I beg to differ. [FONT=Helvetica]“All bachelors are unmarried.” As long as the definition of all those words remains the same, so too will the validity of the statement.[/FONT] [FONT=Helvetica][/FONT] [FONT=Helvetica][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica]2 + 2=4 As long as the value of those numbers and the meaning of the plus and equal signs remains the same, so too will the validity of that statement.[/FONT] [FONT=Helvetica] “God is Truth.” What is “Truth”? The above examples give us insight into this question. Truth= eternal and everlasting. It does not change. You can’t be a bachelor and married at the same time. 2 + 2 will never equal 5.[/FONT] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]We are cyclic and undergo births and deaths (like human life, solar systems, universes, etc). We do not last forever. The Gurus tell us that God is ajooni or acyclic, beyond these cycles of birth and death.[/COLOR][/FONT] [/FONT][/COLOR]To say that God is Truth is a simpler way of saying that God is eternal/ timeless, beyond any cycle of birth and death. This is explained in various part of the SGGS... [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]Please don’t tell me you think it is a baseless assumption/a large stretch for me to suggest that there exists life in the universe which exceeds our intelligence (on the scale of the arbitrarily defined measure of intelligence). The sheer size of the universe means there is a greater chance of you winning the jackpot a trillion times in a row than there is of us being the most ‘intelligent’ life forms in the universe.[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]In any case, if you are still not convinced, then perhaps Neil deGrasse Tyson will be able to change your mind:[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeJoVeKSsyA"][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeJoVeKSsyA[/COLOR][/FONT][/URL][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]He is an award-winning astrophysicist and cosmologist, one of the most respected members of the scientific community; hopefully you give some weight to his opinion...[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR] What? If God exists, then He/She/It has to be the most advanced entity in existence. My point was that such an advanced entity (if it is sentient) isn't going to give a damn about something like sexual orientation. I don't think God cares how you live your life... [COLOR=black]No, this is nothing like “man in clouds abrahamic image of God”. My background is Abrahamic and my parents practice their religion very strictly. I was raised to have belief in that God, I mean this with all due respect but I think I am in a bit of a better position to know what is and isn’t like the man in the clouds version of God.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]Alright, don’t take my word for it. Maybe [B][I]Stephen Hawking[/I][/B] will be able to change your mind:[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]"Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind. [B]I'm now glad that our search for understanding will never come to an end, and that we will always have the challenge of new discovery.[/B] Without it, we would stagnate. Godel’s theorem ensured there would always be a job for mathematicians. I think M theory will do the same for physicists. I'm sure Dirac would have approved."[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][URL="http://www.hawking.org.uk/godel-and-the-end-of-physics.html"][COLOR=#0072c6]http://www.hawking.org.uk/godel-and-the-end-of-physics.html[/COLOR][/URL][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][COLOR=#0072c6][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial]You call it “defeatist”, I call it realistic. [/FONT][/COLOR] In my experience, most Sakhis are hogwash. I’ve heard at least 4 separate accounts of how Guru Gobind Singh died. You’d think that there’d be a clear historical account for something so important, but alas, I suppose it is too much to ask. Also, if Guru Nanak did actually speak with God, why is it not in the SGGS? Keep in mind that there are important historical events preserved in the SGGS- Siddh Gosht, Oankaar, Babur’s invasion of India etc... Surely, if Guru Nanak had actually (literally) been summoned to the ‘Court of the Lord’, something of such significance would surely have been mentioned in the SGGS. You don't just speak with the Creator of the universe and then not write anything about it... Well, considering that Guru Nanak's own writing is preserved in the Guru Granth Sahib (the [I][B]only[/B][/I] authentic source of Nanakian philosophy), would you mind showing me where in the GGS he claimed to have spoken with God? I must have missed that part... Who is claiming that God’s existence cannot be proven with modern Science and Mathematics? Modern Science and Mathematics are probably the most powerful tools we have to able to properly define what ‘God’ is. If ‘God’ is present in creation (as the SGGS says), then why cannot we not further our understanding of God by furthering our understanding of the reality of our universe? [FONT=Verdana][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]The answers of the world aren't contained in a zero-sum proposition. Science is a useful rational tool. The SGGS is my ethical and spiritual authority. My desire to understand my place in reality encourages me to investigate the majesty of the universe. I can use scientific methods to do this as well. This is embracing the capability of being a human, the best shot we get at reaching oneness with Waheguru[/FONT]. You make it sound like science and Sikhi are at odds with each other. I think they go hand-in-hand. Sikhi is a science of the mind and realization of the self, the two fill distinct niches in my life. [FONT=Verdana]“Incomprehensible” and “inaccessible” are used to make a different point in the SGGS. [/FONT] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][COLOR=black]“Incomprehensible” implies an inability to fully comprehend and appreciate just how vast the cosmos really are (especially if our Universe is but one in an ocean of multiverses), along with the forces which govern the entire thing. This concept is briefly touched upon in Japji Sahib, in which Guru Nanak mentions how you could spend your entire life trying to fathom the wonders of Ik Oankar and creation but it would all be in vain, you wouldn't even come close. The only way to understand Ik Onkar is to "walk in the way of His Will" (which is just a fancy way of saying that you should live in consonance with your fellow creation).[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][COLOR=black]This is not to say that science can't help us out; it just means that our human brains will never be able to fully appreciate the majesty of our universe. In my experience, this is true. The vastness of the universe really is incomprehensible. Ask a scientist, if you don't believe me.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][COLOR=black][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][COLOR=black]“Inaccessible" is used to downplay the notion of prophet hood and 'chooseness'. These beliefs are fundamental pillars of Abrahamaic theology and thought. But the idea of God (literally) sending down messengers to spread a message or that one group of people is favored over the rest is the antithesis of Sikh philosophy. According to the Guru Granth Sahib, every individual has spiritual potential and can connect with God without having to follow someone else's rules and regulations. Yes, we can all realize Akaal-Purakh in our lives (this is why Guru Nanak says he "knows God but cannot describe Him", because it is an individual experience), but we don't believe Akaal-Purakh communicates with humans and tells them to write little rule books (= "inaccessible").[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR] Alright, I can only speak for myself here. I don’t think you should ‘believe’ in the SGGS for the sake of believing, in fact I think blind faith is responsible for a lot of the problems the world faces in the 21stcentury, particularly blind faith in religions. [COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][SIZE=2][COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial]I’m a [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial]social worker; I find working with people to be extremely rewarding. I've been volunteering at nursing/senior centers for years and love listening to their life stories. People near the end of their lives and who have seen the world for what it really is have so much to share, but most youths these days are too busy playing video games, getting drunk and going clubbing. I swear you'd learn more about life in one day spent with a senior who has traveled the world than you would in 5 years of High School. [/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=#505050][FONT=Arial] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][SIZE=2]Spending time with them and listening to their stories is one of the major reasons I decided to become a Sikh. The wisdom the Gurus put into the Granth is very similar to what you'd hear from most wise seniors. The teachings of the Gurus are pragmatic and have real-world value. My favorite question to ask is "if you could go back in time to when you were 18 and do everything all over again, what would you do differently?" And the responses are always very similar. There is a reoccurring theme. The overwhelming amount of responses are along the lines of "I wish I had spent more time with my family and loved ones, I wish I had had more confidence in myself and spent less time trying to please others, I wish I had not valued money and material goods as much as I did, I wish I had had a more positive outlook on life and wasn't so negative", and the biggest one of all, "I wish I had spent more time making the world a better place." Reading the Guru Granth Sahib ji, I have found that this is [B]EXACTLY[/B] what the Gurus encouraged us to do. At the end of life, nobody cares about how many sexual partners they've had, how large their house was, how fancy their car, how much money they had, only the little things seem to matter. Being with loved ones (the Gurus encouraged family/community life), having a positive attitude (chardikala), having inner-strength/confidence and not trying to please others (finding God within) and doing good for others (vand chakko/the 3 pillars of Sikhism), that is what matters and this is all found within the Guru Granth Sahib.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR] Buuuuut, I think everybody needs their own reason for practicing Sikhi. That is part of mine. I do not believe in blind faith so I don't think you should take my word for it. Read the Guru Granth Sahib for yourself and make up your own mind. And if in the end you decide that it isn't for you, that this is not how you want to live your life, then fair play good man, you have every right to leave Sikhi if it will make you happier. I assure you that there's no punishment waiting for apostates in the afterlife. Yes, I am. The relevancy of Nanakian philosophy does not depend on the existence of a supernatural creator. If you want, you can type out the Mool Mantar and tell me which part(s) of it are invalid without a supernatural deity. Please don't forget to explain your reasoning. Once again, I completely disagree. I don't think this is really even up for debate, I am living proof that your statement is false. I do not believe in God but that doesn't take away from the relevancy of Guru Granth Sahib one bit for me. I've also come across quite a few other Sikhs who do not believe in God but still practice Sikhi because they have also come to the conclusion that GGS is not dependent on God's existence. This has already been addressed. Of course we can resolve the issue of whether a supernatural god exists or not with science. Science can even tell us the most likely nature of god. Nowhere in the GGS does it state otherwise. Once again, it is realist, not defeatist... I disagree. I was raised to believe in the abrahamic god, and Waheguru is completely different. I am sorry to hear about your situation, and I completely understand where you are coming from. I was raised in a religious household with very strict parents. During my early teenage years, I began questioning my birth religion and after years of research and deliberation, I ended up leaving it. I kept it a secret from my parents for a very long time (years) and I understand your frustration, that feeling of them breathing down your neck and making you do things that your heart isn't completely set on doing, only someone who has experienced it first hand knows just how bad it can be and I symphasize with you 100%. I mean this with no disrespect intended, but I think your parents were completely wrong in their treatment of you. You should not be forced to wear a turban or grow your beard if that is not what you want to do. Likewise, the fact that (as you stated) you have limited knowledge of Sikh philosophy and Gurbani leads me to believe that your family are mainly just cultural/ritualistic Sikhs. I think most are these days, as long as the kids wear turbans, grow their hair, go to Gurdwara a few times a month, they think everything is all good. Very few families seem to bother teaching their kid the philosophy behind it all and so I understand your frustration at having to wear a turban/keep a beard when you don't really understand the point of doing it. And even if you had been taught the philosophy, it still should have been your choice to cut your hair, if that is what you wanted to do. The Gurus called Sikhi "the game of love." There is no love involved when you are forced to do things against your will. Since this is a big decision, I will suggest that you really delve into Sikh philosophy (as enshrined in Guru Granth Sahib) before deciding what to do. Forget about everything your parents or anybody else may have taught you about Sikhi. Don't believe in God? Well there's nothing wrong with that, it doesn't make you a bad person and I assure you, you're not the only Sikh who does not believe in a supernatural creator. The interesting thing is that the more I learn about science, the more I learn about Sikhi. I'm a big science geek and it has shaped my understanding of Sikhi more than anything else. Read the Guru Granth Sahib with your own heart and see if there is something in there for you. Good luck my friend. [/QUOTE]
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