☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
MUKTI- Different Types And What Gurbani Says
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 175341" data-attributes="member: 586"><p>ChazSingh ji,</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes I believe that we do end up associating with like minded people. It is a very common phenomenon today, that a fool will judge some other fool as wise, re: the sants and babas out there. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What about ignorance? Can one not with ignorance, want to fight the five thieves? Would this then not be motivated by Lobh, one of the same five thieves? If the motivation to go to the mountains is to reduce anger etc. then this must be Lobh (and wrong understanding) and this is wrong practice, which as you point out, comes with the illusion of result. But is this not also the case with your belief namely:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Just as the person who thinks he can develop more understanding by going off into the mountains, your insistence on living the life of a householder is associated with the idea of a better time, place and situation. The desire / ambition, the ignorance and the wrong understanding are imo, the same? </p><p>Besides do you not take your attachment, aversion and ignorance with you wherever you go?</p><p></p><p>But as I said, in the case of someone who decides on the life of a recluse, this may come naturally as a result of seeing the harm in sensuous attachment and dustiness of the household life. If this is the case, then he must see attachment in relation to all the experience through the senses, whether here or there. The point of seclusion is to minimize distractions so that one can practice to attain states of concentrative absorption, and this implies that the person knows that when not in the state, attachment will take reign. For such a person what are the chances that ambition will influence the outcome?</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, your view about practice is a general recommendation and does not take into account the fact of ignorance and desire as motivating force. This would make it the opposite of what it takes for any kind of unwholesome tendency to be overcome. It is wisdom which understands and finally gets rid of anger, attachment, conceit and so on. And wisdom is the opposite of ignorance. Wisdom does not desire and does not mind what the object is; it functions to shed light on the reality of the moment. From this it can be seen then, that it is “ignorance” which is the real enemy and not attachment, aversion, conceit etc. Moreover, the path is that of “detachment”. To choose a situation and attempt at creating conditions whereby understanding can be developed is the opposite of detachment. </p><p></p><p>And one more thing. You argue that those who go to the mountains end up possibly being fooled into thinking that they are without the five thieves. A more real danger as far as I have seen, is that those who believe that the householder's life is ideal, end up in the course of their lives, making justification for all kinds of unwholesome actions, e.g. doing this or that for the family. I am quite sure that you have encountered many Sikhs making the kind of justification. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, detachment. But this is impossible if the householder's life is made into an ideal, since this is motivated by ignorance and attachment, the opposite of wisdom and detachment. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Perhaps Guru Nanak in pointing out one wrong attitude with regard to becoming a recluse did not mean to make the householder's life the ideal, but this was a wrong conclusion drawn by some of his followers?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 175341, member: 586"] ChazSingh ji, Yes I believe that we do end up associating with like minded people. It is a very common phenomenon today, that a fool will judge some other fool as wise, re: the sants and babas out there. What about ignorance? Can one not with ignorance, want to fight the five thieves? Would this then not be motivated by Lobh, one of the same five thieves? If the motivation to go to the mountains is to reduce anger etc. then this must be Lobh (and wrong understanding) and this is wrong practice, which as you point out, comes with the illusion of result. But is this not also the case with your belief namely: Just as the person who thinks he can develop more understanding by going off into the mountains, your insistence on living the life of a householder is associated with the idea of a better time, place and situation. The desire / ambition, the ignorance and the wrong understanding are imo, the same? Besides do you not take your attachment, aversion and ignorance with you wherever you go? But as I said, in the case of someone who decides on the life of a recluse, this may come naturally as a result of seeing the harm in sensuous attachment and dustiness of the household life. If this is the case, then he must see attachment in relation to all the experience through the senses, whether here or there. The point of seclusion is to minimize distractions so that one can practice to attain states of concentrative absorption, and this implies that the person knows that when not in the state, attachment will take reign. For such a person what are the chances that ambition will influence the outcome? On the other hand, your view about practice is a general recommendation and does not take into account the fact of ignorance and desire as motivating force. This would make it the opposite of what it takes for any kind of unwholesome tendency to be overcome. It is wisdom which understands and finally gets rid of anger, attachment, conceit and so on. And wisdom is the opposite of ignorance. Wisdom does not desire and does not mind what the object is; it functions to shed light on the reality of the moment. From this it can be seen then, that it is “ignorance” which is the real enemy and not attachment, aversion, conceit etc. Moreover, the path is that of “detachment”. To choose a situation and attempt at creating conditions whereby understanding can be developed is the opposite of detachment. And one more thing. You argue that those who go to the mountains end up possibly being fooled into thinking that they are without the five thieves. A more real danger as far as I have seen, is that those who believe that the householder's life is ideal, end up in the course of their lives, making justification for all kinds of unwholesome actions, e.g. doing this or that for the family. I am quite sure that you have encountered many Sikhs making the kind of justification. Yes, detachment. But this is impossible if the householder's life is made into an ideal, since this is motivated by ignorance and attachment, the opposite of wisdom and detachment. Perhaps Guru Nanak in pointing out one wrong attitude with regard to becoming a recluse did not mean to make the householder's life the ideal, but this was a wrong conclusion drawn by some of his followers? [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
MUKTI- Different Types And What Gurbani Says
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top