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<blockquote data-quote="Randip Singh" data-source="post: 102838" data-attributes="member: 1323"><p>Hi people, occaisonally I amuse myself by looking through Sikhism101 (Sikhism420) to see what glaring errors they have made today. Today I came accross an article on the most controversial of topics meat, but this discussion is not about meat, but about the lengths people go to just to force home their points, including lying, dishonesty and ignorance.</p><p></p><p>Is this "essay" (I won't disnify it by calling it an essay because it is a series of diartribe), <a href="http://www.sikhism101.com/node/77" target="_blank">What is the attitude of Sikh Faith towards eating animals (i.e. meat)? | Sikhism101.com | UniversalFaith.net</a>, the section under historical sources states:</p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Mohsin Fani (1615-70), the well known historian and a contemporary of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib, rites in his work DABISTAN-E-MAZAHIB as follows:</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em>"Having prohibited his disciples to drink wine and eat pork, he (Nanak) himself abstained from eating flesh and ordered not to hurt any living being. After him this precept was neglected by his followers; but Arjun Mal, one of the substitutes of his Faith, renewed the prohibition to eat flesh and said: This has not been approved by Nanak."</em></span></p><p></p><p>Luckily for me I have the actual translation from Dabistan e Mazhib from <em>Siques</em>, <em>Tigers</em> or <em>Thieves</em> Parmjit Singh & Amandeep Singh Madra ISBN 978-8185229171:</p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: black"><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Many person became his disciples. <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-nanak-dev/" target="_blank">Nanak</a> believed in the Oneness of God and in the way that it is asserted in Muhammadan theology. He also believed in transmigration of souls. Holding wine and pork to be unlawful, he had [himself] abandoned eating meat. He decreed avoidance of causing harm to animals. It was after his time that meat-eating spread amongst his followers. Arjan Mal, who was on of his lineal succesors, found this to be evil. He prohibited people from eating meat, saying This is not in accordance with Nanaks wishes. <strong>Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate meat and took to hunting. Most of their [the Gurus] followers adopted his practice.</strong></span></span></em></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: black"><span style="color: yellow"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: blue">Mobad Dabistan-I Mazahib 1645-46</span> </span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span>As you can see glaring differences and totally change the meaning. </p><p></p><p>There are other sections in that "essay" which I will comment on but commentary on the Shabads can be found here:</p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html" target="_blank">http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html</a></p><p></p><p>but as I stated I do not wish this to become a meat debate, but a debate into why people feel they have to use such underhand tactic.</p><p></p><p>Another thing I picked up was the use of Varan Bhai Gurdas:</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਅਕ ਧਤੂਰਾ ਖਾਧਿਆਂ ਕੁਹਿ ਕੁਹਿ ਖਲ ਉਖਲਿ ਵਿਣਸੀ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਮਾਸੁ ਖਾਨਿ ਗਲ ਵਢਿ ਕੈ ਹਾਲੁ ਤਿਨਾੜਾ ਕਉਣੁ ਹੋਵਸੀ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em>"I was eating 'Ak' and 'Dhatura' plants (weed plants found in India) for whole of my life, to which no body else liked to eat. And even then I am being brutally killed and my skin being ripped, What will happen to those who cut my throat and eat my meat?</em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em>(Vaar 25, Pauri 7)</em></span> </p><p> <span style="color: Blue">Elsewhere, Bhai Gurdaas Ji says:</span></p><p> <em><span style="color: Blue">ਕੁਹੈ ਕਸਾਈ ਬਕਰੀ ਲਾਇ ਲੂਣ ਸੀਖ ਮਾਸੁ ਪਰੋਆ ॥</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: Blue">ਹਸਿ ਹਸਿ ਬੋਲੇ ਕੁਹੀਂਦੀ ਖਾਧੇ ਅਕਿ ਹਾਲੁ ਇਹੁ ਹੋਆ॥</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: Blue">ਮਾਸ ਖਾਨਿ ਗਿਲ ਛੁਰੀ ਦੇ ਹਾਲੁ ਤਿਨਾੜਾ ਕਉਣੁ ਅਲੋਆ ॥</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: Blue">"Goat is being killed, cut into pieces, and salt being spread on the pieces. While being killed goat says this all happened to me while I was just eating 'Ak' plant (weed found in India's desert fields). What will be the fate of those in the Court of the Lord who cut my throat with a knife and eat my meat?"</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: Blue">(Vaar 37, Pauri 21)</span></em> </p><p></p><p></p><p>this section section they convieniently miss this:</p><p></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: black"><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Just as one has to tie pail's neck while taking out water</span></span></em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">, </span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: black"><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Just as to get Mani, snake is to be killed</span></span></em></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: black"><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Just as to get Kasturi from deer's neck, deer is to be killed</span></span></em></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: black"><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed</span></span></em></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: black"><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken</span></span></em></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: black"><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up.</span></span></em></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: black"><span style="color: Navy"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Bhai Gurdas, Var-34, pauri 13 </span></span></span></span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: black"><span style="color: Navy"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></span></span></p><p></p><p>and this Displaying Vaar <strong>23</strong> Pauri <strong>13 of 21 </strong> of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :</p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book=bhai_gurdas_vaaran&action=pauripage&vaar=23&pauri=13" target="_blank">Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :Vaar23Pauri13:SearchGurbani.com</a></p><p></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px">ਹਸਤਿ ਅਖਾਜੁ ਗੁਮਾਨ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਹੁ ਸਤਾਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਖਾਈ । </span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">hasati akhaaju gumaan kari seehu sataanaa koi n khaaee|</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">The proud elephant is inedible and none eats the mighty lion.</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">Line 1 </span><span style="font-size: 10px">ਹੋਇ ਨਿਮਾਣੀ ਬਕਰੀ ਦੀਨ ਦੁਨੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਪਾਈ । </span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">hoi nimaanee bakaree deen dunee vadiaaee paaee|</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">Goat is humble and hence it is respected everywhere.</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">Line 2 </span><span style="font-size: 10px">ਮਰਣੈ ਪਰਣੈ ਮੰਨੀਐ ਜਗਿ ਭੋਗਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਕਰਾਈ । </span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">maranai paranai manneeai jagi bhogi paravaanu karaaee|</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">On occasions of death, joy, marriage, yajna, etc only its meat dis accepted.</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">Line 3 </span><span style="font-size: 10px">ਮਾਸੁ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਸਤ ਨੋ ਆਂਦਹੁ ਤਾਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਵਜਾਈ । </span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">maasu pavitr grihasat no aandahu taar veechaari vajaaee|</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">Among the householders its meat is acknowledged as sacred and with its gut stringed instruments are made.</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">Line 4 </span><span style="font-size: 10px">ਚਮੜੇ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਰਿ ਜੁਤੀਆ ਸਾਧੂ ਚਰਣ ਸਰਣਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ । </span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">chamarhay deeaan kari juteeaa saadhoo charan sarani|iv|aaee|</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">From its leather the shoes are made to be used by the saints merged in their meditation upon the Lord.</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">Line 5 </span><span style="font-size: 10px">ਤੂਰ ਪਖਾਵਜ ਮੜੀਦੇ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਦਾਈ । </span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">toor pakhaavaj marheeday keeratanu saadhasangati sukhadaaee|</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">Drums are mounted by its skin and then in the holy congregation the delight-giving kirtan, eulogy of the Lord, is sung.</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">Line 6 </span><span style="font-size: 10px">ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਈ ॥੧੩॥ </span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">saadhasangati satigur saranaaee ॥13॥</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">In fact, going to the holy congregation is the same as going to the shelter of the true Guru.</span></em></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"><em><span style="font-size: 10px"></span><span style="font-size: 10px">Line 7 </span></em></span> </p><p></p><p>Does this person not understand the cryptic nature of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas and the metaphors?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Why the deceit to make a point?</p><p></p><p>Why do people feel the need to lie like this?</p><p></p><p>How can we trust anything else this person has written?</p><p></p><p>Have people come accross other deceitful essays on Sikhism101 site?</p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Randip Singh, post: 102838, member: 1323"] Hi people, occaisonally I amuse myself by looking through Sikhism101 (Sikhism420) to see what glaring errors they have made today. Today I came accross an article on the most controversial of topics meat, but this discussion is not about meat, but about the lengths people go to just to force home their points, including lying, dishonesty and ignorance. Is this "essay" (I won't disnify it by calling it an essay because it is a series of diartribe), [URL="http://www.sikhism101.com/node/77"]What is the attitude of Sikh Faith towards eating animals (i.e. meat)? | Sikhism101.com | UniversalFaith.net[/URL], the section under historical sources states: [COLOR=Blue]Mohsin Fani (1615-70), the well known historian and a contemporary of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib, rites in his work DABISTAN-E-MAZAHIB as follows: [I]"Having prohibited his disciples to drink wine and eat pork, he (Nanak) himself abstained from eating flesh and ordered not to hurt any living being. After him this precept was neglected by his followers; but Arjun Mal, one of the substitutes of his Faith, renewed the prohibition to eat flesh and said: This has not been approved by Nanak."[/I][/COLOR] Luckily for me I have the actual translation from Dabistan e Mazhib from [I]Siques[/I], [I]Tigers[/I] or [I]Thieves[/I] Parmjit Singh & Amandeep Singh Madra ISBN 978-8185229171: [FONT=Arial][COLOR=black][I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]Many person became his disciples. [URL="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/guru-nanak-dev/"]Nanak[/URL] believed in the Oneness of God and in the way that it is asserted in Muhammadan theology. He also believed in transmigration of souls. Holding wine and pork to be unlawful, he had [himself] abandoned eating meat. He decreed avoidance of causing harm to animals. It was after his time that meat-eating spread amongst his followers. Arjan Mal, who was on of his lineal succesors, found this to be evil. He prohibited people from eating meat, saying This is not in accordance with Nanaks wishes. [B]Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate meat and took to hunting. Most of their [the Gurus] followers adopted his practice.[/B][/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [COLOR=yellow][FONT=Arial][COLOR=blue]Mobad Dabistan-I Mazahib 1645-46[/COLOR] [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT] [COLOR=Blue] [/COLOR]As you can see glaring differences and totally change the meaning. There are other sections in that "essay" which I will comment on but commentary on the Shabads can be found here: [URL]http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/8828-fools-who-wrangle-over-flesh.html[/URL] but as I stated I do not wish this to become a meat debate, but a debate into why people feel they have to use such underhand tactic. Another thing I picked up was the use of Varan Bhai Gurdas: [COLOR=Blue]ਅਕ ਧਤੂਰਾ ਖਾਧਿਆਂ ਕੁਹਿ ਕੁਹਿ ਖਲ ਉਖਲਿ ਵਿਣਸੀ ॥ ਮਾਸੁ ਖਾਨਿ ਗਲ ਵਢਿ ਕੈ ਹਾਲੁ ਤਿਨਾੜਾ ਕਉਣੁ ਹੋਵਸੀ ॥ [I]"I was eating 'Ak' and 'Dhatura' plants (weed plants found in India) for whole of my life, to which no body else liked to eat. And even then I am being brutally killed and my skin being ripped, What will happen to those who cut my throat and eat my meat? (Vaar 25, Pauri 7)[/I][/COLOR] [COLOR=Blue]Elsewhere, Bhai Gurdaas Ji says:[/COLOR] [I][COLOR=Blue]ਕੁਹੈ ਕਸਾਈ ਬਕਰੀ ਲਾਇ ਲੂਣ ਸੀਖ ਮਾਸੁ ਪਰੋਆ ॥ ਹਸਿ ਹਸਿ ਬੋਲੇ ਕੁਹੀਂਦੀ ਖਾਧੇ ਅਕਿ ਹਾਲੁ ਇਹੁ ਹੋਆ॥ ਮਾਸ ਖਾਨਿ ਗਿਲ ਛੁਰੀ ਦੇ ਹਾਲੁ ਤਿਨਾੜਾ ਕਉਣੁ ਅਲੋਆ ॥ "Goat is being killed, cut into pieces, and salt being spread on the pieces. While being killed goat says this all happened to me while I was just eating 'Ak' plant (weed found in India's desert fields). What will be the fate of those in the Court of the Lord who cut my throat with a knife and eat my meat?" (Vaar 37, Pauri 21)[/COLOR][/I] this section section they convieniently miss this: [FONT=Arial][COLOR=black][I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]Just as one has to tie pail's neck while taking out water[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial], [/FONT][/COLOR] [I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]Just as to get Mani, snake is to be killed[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]Just as to get Kasturi from deer's neck, deer is to be killed[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [COLOR=Navy][FONT=Arial]Bhai Gurdas, Var-34, pauri 13 [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT] and this Displaying Vaar [B]23[/B] Pauri [B]13 of 21 [/B] of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas : [URL="http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?book=bhai_gurdas_vaaran&action=pauripage&vaar=23&pauri=13"]Vaaran Bhai Gurdas :Vaar23Pauri13:SearchGurbani.com[/URL] [COLOR=Blue][I][SIZE=2]ਹਸਤਿ ਅਖਾਜੁ ਗੁਮਾਨ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਹੁ ਸਤਾਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਖਾਈ । [/SIZE][SIZE=2]hasati akhaaju gumaan kari seehu sataanaa koi n khaaee| [/SIZE][SIZE=2]The proud elephant is inedible and none eats the mighty lion. [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Line 1 [/SIZE][SIZE=2]ਹੋਇ ਨਿਮਾਣੀ ਬਕਰੀ ਦੀਨ ਦੁਨੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਪਾਈ । [/SIZE][SIZE=2]hoi nimaanee bakaree deen dunee vadiaaee paaee| [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Goat is humble and hence it is respected everywhere. [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Line 2 [/SIZE][SIZE=2]ਮਰਣੈ ਪਰਣੈ ਮੰਨੀਐ ਜਗਿ ਭੋਗਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਕਰਾਈ । [/SIZE][SIZE=2]maranai paranai manneeai jagi bhogi paravaanu karaaee| [/SIZE][SIZE=2]On occasions of death, joy, marriage, yajna, etc only its meat dis accepted. [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Line 3 [/SIZE][SIZE=2]ਮਾਸੁ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਸਤ ਨੋ ਆਂਦਹੁ ਤਾਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਵਜਾਈ । [/SIZE][SIZE=2]maasu pavitr grihasat no aandahu taar veechaari vajaaee| [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Among the householders its meat is acknowledged as sacred and with its gut stringed instruments are made. [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Line 4 [/SIZE][SIZE=2]ਚਮੜੇ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਰਿ ਜੁਤੀਆ ਸਾਧੂ ਚਰਣ ਸਰਣਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ । [/SIZE][SIZE=2]chamarhay deeaan kari juteeaa saadhoo charan sarani|iv|aaee| [/SIZE][SIZE=2]From its leather the shoes are made to be used by the saints merged in their meditation upon the Lord. [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Line 5 [/SIZE][SIZE=2]ਤੂਰ ਪਖਾਵਜ ਮੜੀਦੇ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਸੁਖਦਾਈ । [/SIZE][SIZE=2]toor pakhaavaj marheeday keeratanu saadhasangati sukhadaaee| [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Drums are mounted by its skin and then in the holy congregation the delight-giving kirtan, eulogy of the Lord, is sung. [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Line 6 [/SIZE][SIZE=2]ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਰਣਾਈ ॥੧੩॥ [/SIZE][SIZE=2]saadhasangati satigur saranaaee ॥13॥ [/SIZE][SIZE=2]In fact, going to the holy congregation is the same as going to the shelter of the true Guru. [/SIZE][SIZE=2]Line 7 [/SIZE][/I][/COLOR] Does this person not understand the cryptic nature of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas and the metaphors? Why the deceit to make a point? Why do people feel the need to lie like this? How can we trust anything else this person has written? Have people come accross other deceitful essays on Sikhism101 site? [COLOR=Blue] [/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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