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Gurbani (527-536)
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Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
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Bhagat Bani (691-695)
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Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
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Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
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Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
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Suchajee (762)
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Vaar Soohee (785-792)
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Gurbani (795-831)
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Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
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Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Gurmat Vichaar
Gurmat Vichar - Discussions
Manmukh And Gurmukh
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<blockquote data-quote="mystic" data-source="post: 50860" data-attributes="member: 1131"><p>Gufateh</p><p> </p><p>Perhaps we need to look at these definitions of Guru Mukh and Manmukh within the context of Gurbani from a psychological prepective and not an exoteric view. </p><p> </p><p>Many of us are confused and ignorant about what the mind is. We too have been so heavy influenced by the philosphy of descarte and shankya, that we see all through the eyes of dualism, mind and matter, etc. </p><p> </p><p>To keep things simple, we should look at the following terms:</p><p> </p><p>Sikh - Learner ( who learns? what facility within you or I actually learns?)</p><p> </p><p>The basis of Gurbani is to allow one to EXPERIENCE an INNER transformation, NOT an external transformation. </p><p> </p><p>If we conducted a simple experiment of just closing our eyes. What do we see? No matter what you see, you notice that there is a "seer" within that is experiencing the experience of black or darkness. Try and find this "seer". </p><p> </p><p>No matter how hard you look, there is always the "seer" or observer trying to observe itself. </p><p> </p><p>I would define the darkness that the seer experienced as the content within the mind, and the seer, the consciousness that is aware of the content. </p><p> </p><p>Manmukh is when we identify with Content of our mind, i.e thoughts, emotions, feelings etc while Gurmukh is idetifying ourslves with the seer of the content. </p><p> </p><p>Gur = that which takes you from darkness (ignorance or not knowing) to a state of knowing. What inside YOU allows you to experience the experience of knowing? You will find that its the "seer" or observer that resides within your mind. </p><p> </p><p>There are many references from Gurbani that illustrate this, Maan tu Jot saroop hai, apna mool pacha. or Antar Gur Ardana .....etc. </p><p> </p><p>It is only though introinspection that one discovers that Gurmukh and Manmukh are infact opposite ways of self identity. </p><p> </p><p>This require refined thought and is contrary to our normal concept of the term Gurmukh and Manmukh. If anyone wishes to explore this further, please feel free. </p><p> </p><p>I have included a recent article I wrote that contains some refrences to Consciousness: </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Prof Devinder Singh Chahal writes ..."However, it is very clear that </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">consciousness is the result of collective action of millions of neurons </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">and reactions of some chemicals produced in the brain"</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">I would like to contest the statement above, consciouness is does not </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">appear to be a by product of chemical nor neuroactivity in the brain. Even within this particular disipline of science, the problem of Qualia </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">cannot be addressed. It is akin to the work of Crick and watson re DNA, </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">the many have discovered the nature of DNA, yet were unable to </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">discover "life" within those chemical. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Additionally, although every individual experinces their own self, </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">including scientist, in the study of mind, brain and psychology </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">consciouness was not acknowledged and actively dismissed as having "no </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">place in the study of mind, brain and psychology", in the pursuit of </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">science!. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">my reason for contesting is that such generalised statements may </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">mislead us in the pursuit of "truth" and prevent us from learning, i.e. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">being a Sikh. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">As the beautiful Zen story illustrates, </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">university professor who came to inquire about Zen. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">pouring. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!" </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">There is NO clear undersanding about consciouness, in fact, the Hard </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">problem of consciouness does not seem to go away. (David Chambers). The </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">hard problem being the Qualia of experience. The hard problem of </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">consciousness was formulated by Chalmers in 1996, dealing with the </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">issue of "how to explain a state of phenomenal consciousness in terms </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">of its neurological basis" What determines the quality of experince, </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">the depth, the understanding, etc.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">I would suggest that consciouness is beyond the grasp of man, i.e. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">science. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Perhaps the understanding and in particular our "emotional attachment" </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">to this concept should be explored. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">If Guru is understood to be a process of moving from a state of not </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">knowing to a state of knowing, Gu (Darkness, ignorance) Ru (Light, </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">knowing, knowledge), then perhaps we can explore what within us is </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">moved into a state of knowing? </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">What "knows" within us? </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Being conscious implies to know. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Those who may have had experinces of mystical states would recognise </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">that one quality of such a state is "timelessness" and "Complete </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Awareness". By complete I mean, contentless, yet clear & pure. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">jis tay sojhee man pa-ee mili-aa purakh sujaan.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Through them, understanding has entered my mind, and I have met the All- knowing Lord God. Guru Arjan Dev p 43</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">tooN daanaa beenaa saachaa sir mayrai.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">You are All-knowing, All-seeing and True, O my Supreme Lord. Guru Nanak Dev </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">antarjaamee parabh sujaan.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">God is All-knowing, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts. Guru Arjan Dev </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">There are numerous references that illustrate "God" as being all </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">knowing, i.e. Conscious - </span></p><p> <span style="font-size: 10px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">It is the notion of "I" hau-mai - referencing-self, an illusionary </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">identity that is "lost" leading to such states, leaving a sense of </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">knowing without sujectivity, objectivity and experince as being </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">distinct, but synthesised in ONE. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">'Consciousness is not an object. It is hereness itself. Our minds are </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">usually involved with an object that appears and disappears in the </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">hereness, and because of that, we overlook the nature of hereness. Pure </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">consciousness is what these words appear in, what all bodies appear in. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">It infuses all words and bodies, and it is conscious of itself, and it </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">is you. In your recognition of yourself as pure consciousness, you </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">awaken to yourself. Normally, when we speak of consciousness, we are </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">referring to particular states of awareness - being aware of something </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">or not being aware of something - rather than the awareness itself.'</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">It appears that our (Sikhs) emotional attachment to the understanding </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">of Guru, prevents or hampers us in gaining a deeper understanding of </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">both the process and qualitative experince of Akal. Should one change, </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">develop, deconstruct, reconstruct their understanding it allow one </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">to "experince" Karta-Purkh ( Creative consciouness)</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Some references that may assist in moving this discussion forward. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">sabh meh jot jot hai so-ay.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Guru Nanak Dev p 13</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">panch bhoot sach bhai ratay jot sachee man maahi.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">mind is filled with the True Light.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Guru Nanak Dev p 20</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">jah daykhaa tah rav rahay siv saktee kaa mayl.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">and Shakti, of consciousness and matter, Guru Nanak Dev, p 21. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">jotee jot milaa-ee-ai surtee surat sanjog.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">When one's light merges into the Light, and one's intuitive </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">consciousness is joined with the Intuitive Consciousness,</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Guru Nanak Dev p 21</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">tab lag mahal na paa-ee-ai jab lag saach na cheet.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">As long as Truth does not enter into the consciousness, the Mansion of </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">the Lord's Presence is not found.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Guru Nanak Dev </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">gur charnee sadaa chit laa-i-aa.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">I focus my consciousness on the Guru's Feet forever.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Guru Amar Das </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">gur parsaadee ko virlaa boojhai cha-uthai pad liv laavani-aa. ||1|| By Guru's Grace, a few come to understand; they center their </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">consciousness in the fourth state. ||1||</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Guru Amar Das p 129</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">a-ukhaDh mantar mool man aikai jay kar darirh chit keejai ray. O mind, there is only the One medicine, mantra and healing herb - </span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">center your consciousness firmly on the One Lord.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px">Guru Nanak Dev p 156</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 10px"></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="mystic, post: 50860, member: 1131"] Gufateh Perhaps we need to look at these definitions of Guru Mukh and Manmukh within the context of Gurbani from a psychological prepective and not an exoteric view. Many of us are confused and ignorant about what the mind is. We too have been so heavy influenced by the philosphy of descarte and shankya, that we see all through the eyes of dualism, mind and matter, etc. To keep things simple, we should look at the following terms: Sikh - Learner ( who learns? what facility within you or I actually learns?) The basis of Gurbani is to allow one to EXPERIENCE an INNER transformation, NOT an external transformation. If we conducted a simple experiment of just closing our eyes. What do we see? No matter what you see, you notice that there is a "seer" within that is experiencing the experience of black or darkness. Try and find this "seer". No matter how hard you look, there is always the "seer" or observer trying to observe itself. I would define the darkness that the seer experienced as the content within the mind, and the seer, the consciousness that is aware of the content. Manmukh is when we identify with Content of our mind, i.e thoughts, emotions, feelings etc while Gurmukh is idetifying ourslves with the seer of the content. Gur = that which takes you from darkness (ignorance or not knowing) to a state of knowing. What inside YOU allows you to experience the experience of knowing? You will find that its the "seer" or observer that resides within your mind. There are many references from Gurbani that illustrate this, Maan tu Jot saroop hai, apna mool pacha. or Antar Gur Ardana .....etc. It is only though introinspection that one discovers that Gurmukh and Manmukh are infact opposite ways of self identity. This require refined thought and is contrary to our normal concept of the term Gurmukh and Manmukh. If anyone wishes to explore this further, please feel free. I have included a recent article I wrote that contains some refrences to Consciousness: [SIZE=2]Prof Devinder Singh Chahal writes ..."However, it is very clear that consciousness is the result of collective action of millions of neurons and reactions of some chemicals produced in the brain" I would like to contest the statement above, consciouness is does not appear to be a by product of chemical nor neuroactivity in the brain. Even within this particular disipline of science, the problem of Qualia cannot be addressed. It is akin to the work of Crick and watson re DNA, the many have discovered the nature of DNA, yet were unable to discover "life" within those chemical. Additionally, although every individual experinces their own self, including scientist, in the study of mind, brain and psychology consciouness was not acknowledged and actively dismissed as having "no place in the study of mind, brain and psychology", in the pursuit of science!. my reason for contesting is that such generalised statements may mislead us in the pursuit of "truth" and prevent us from learning, i.e. being a Sikh. As the beautiful Zen story illustrates, Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen. Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!" "Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?" There is NO clear undersanding about consciouness, in fact, the Hard problem of consciouness does not seem to go away. (David Chambers). The hard problem being the Qualia of experience. The hard problem of consciousness was formulated by Chalmers in 1996, dealing with the issue of "how to explain a state of phenomenal consciousness in terms of its neurological basis" What determines the quality of experince, the depth, the understanding, etc. I would suggest that consciouness is beyond the grasp of man, i.e. science. Perhaps the understanding and in particular our "emotional attachment" to this concept should be explored. If Guru is understood to be a process of moving from a state of not knowing to a state of knowing, Gu (Darkness, ignorance) Ru (Light, knowing, knowledge), then perhaps we can explore what within us is moved into a state of knowing? What "knows" within us? Being conscious implies to know. Those who may have had experinces of mystical states would recognise that one quality of such a state is "timelessness" and "Complete Awareness". By complete I mean, contentless, yet clear & pure. jis tay sojhee man pa-ee mili-aa purakh sujaan. Through them, understanding has entered my mind, and I have met the All- knowing Lord God. Guru Arjan Dev p 43 tooN daanaa beenaa saachaa sir mayrai. You are All-knowing, All-seeing and True, O my Supreme Lord. Guru Nanak Dev antarjaamee parabh sujaan. God is All-knowing, the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts. Guru Arjan Dev There are numerous references that illustrate "God" as being all knowing, i.e. Conscious - It is the notion of "I" hau-mai - referencing-self, an illusionary identity that is "lost" leading to such states, leaving a sense of knowing without sujectivity, objectivity and experince as being distinct, but synthesised in ONE. 'Consciousness is not an object. It is hereness itself. Our minds are usually involved with an object that appears and disappears in the hereness, and because of that, we overlook the nature of hereness. Pure consciousness is what these words appear in, what all bodies appear in. It infuses all words and bodies, and it is conscious of itself, and it is you. In your recognition of yourself as pure consciousness, you awaken to yourself. Normally, when we speak of consciousness, we are referring to particular states of awareness - being aware of something or not being aware of something - rather than the awareness itself.' It appears that our (Sikhs) emotional attachment to the understanding of Guru, prevents or hampers us in gaining a deeper understanding of both the process and qualitative experince of Akal. Should one change, develop, deconstruct, reconstruct their understanding it allow one to "experince" Karta-Purkh ( Creative consciouness) Some references that may assist in moving this discussion forward. sabh meh jot jot hai so-ay. Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light. Guru Nanak Dev p 13 panch bhoot sach bhai ratay jot sachee man maahi. The body of the five elements is dyed in the Fear of the True One; the mind is filled with the True Light. Guru Nanak Dev p 20 jah daykhaa tah rav rahay siv saktee kaa mayl. Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter, Guru Nanak Dev, p 21. jotee jot milaa-ee-ai surtee surat sanjog. When one's light merges into the Light, and one's intuitive consciousness is joined with the Intuitive Consciousness, Guru Nanak Dev p 21 tab lag mahal na paa-ee-ai jab lag saach na cheet. As long as Truth does not enter into the consciousness, the Mansion of the Lord's Presence is not found. Guru Nanak Dev gur charnee sadaa chit laa-i-aa. I focus my consciousness on the Guru's Feet forever. Guru Amar Das gur parsaadee ko virlaa boojhai cha-uthai pad liv laavani-aa. ||1|| By Guru's Grace, a few come to understand; they center their consciousness in the fourth state. ||1|| Guru Amar Das p 129 a-ukhaDh mantar mool man aikai jay kar darirh chit keejai ray. O mind, there is only the One medicine, mantra and healing herb - center your consciousness firmly on the One Lord. Guru Nanak Dev p 156 [/SIZE] [/QUOTE]
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Gurmat Vichaar
Gurmat Vichar - Discussions
Manmukh And Gurmukh
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