Keshki Or Kesh

[Jugraj Singh]

Tejwant Singh ji,

I don't know bhai Manmohan Singh. I don't know if he wrote the article in Punjabi or English. If it was written in PUnjabi I'm not sure who translated.

However, substance of the article is clear in the point that keski is a kakkar. If you don't agree with any of the supporting points than please feel free to discuss them.

If it makes you feel better pretend that the article was written by a anonymous person. I agree with the points mentioned in the article ... regardless of who might have written it.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Jugraj Singh ji,

Thanks for your response once again. So it is not established who the true author is but as you identify with its contents, lets go with that.

Lets leave the rehatnaamas aside as they are written by people who were as fallible as you and myself but try to find the answer through GURBANI our only reference treasure.

I am sure you must have studied the following verse in details as you identify with the article. Can you please give me the whole verse which is in the article and also its meaning and significance. And last but not the least, could you please let me know who GURU SAHIB is talking to in this verse about the turban and why?

v. Sahib Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji's hymn on page 1084 clearly states:

Naapaak Paak Kar Hadoor Hadeesa
Sabat Surat Dastaar Sira.
Make unpure (mind) pure. It is the true adherence to the Muslim Law (Hadees).
(One can obtain this objective) by keeping one's body unviolated and by always
wearing a turban on head.
The above instruction to keep the body in its original complete form and to wear turban is meant for all, irrespective of sex.

I am eager to learn a lot from you.

Tejwant

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Not only men but all sikhs are required to keep ALL kesh on their body.

I don't think you are familiar with concept of bujjar kurehit.

1) cutting hair
2) eating meat
3) intoxicants
4) pre marital sex/ adultery

if you do any of these you are not a sikh anymore.

Jugraj Singh ji,

As we are SIKHS, meaning seekers and learners, please bear with my ignorance.

Can you pls give me the references from SGGS for the above four that you mentioned as bujjar kurehat?

I would like to remind ourselves again that only SGGS is our AMRITSAR. nothing more...noone else..

Tejwant

 

[Jugraj Singh]

>>>>Can you pls give me the references from SGGS for the above four that you mentioned as bujjar kurehat?

I would like to remind ourselves again that only SGGS is our AMRITSAR. nothing more...noone else..
>>>>

The reason that I am starting with your latter post is to make one point clear. Do you believe that if something is not contained in the Sri Guru Granth SAhib ji then it is not to be followed?

I hope this is not the case. Guru Gobind Singh Jee's bani is not in the Guru Granth SAhib. Infact 3 out of the 5 nitnem banis are not from the Guru Granth SAhib. During the amrit sanchar when amrit is being made the 5 morning banis are read while preparing the amrit and 3 of them are not in the Guru Granth SAhib. While the seekers are waiting for amrit, many times they are told to continue the recital of chaupai sahib daa patth (Guru Gobind Singh jee's bani) indefinitely until instructed to stop.

I hope that you can acknowledge that a lot of Sikhi rehit is not explicitly visible in the Guru Granth Sahib. I know Bani contains all knowlede and my faith tells me that BAni is infinite and thus contains everything however I am not at the level where I can communicate the meanings of Gurbani to someone else when i don't understand them myself.

Now that we have that cleared up, it is important to acknowledge during all amrit sanchars regardless of what jatha someone belongs to, it is made perfectly clear that
1) cutting hair is forbiddn
2) extra marital sex is forbidden
3) intoxicants are forbidden
the 4) point of eating meat is generally forbidden but certain groups insist on being able to eat meat in emegencies and prepared in a certain way. This is a while another discussion altogether.


As for the gubani tuk and your translation:

"Naapaak Paak Kar Hadoor Hadeesa
Sabat Surat Dastaar Sira.
Make unpure (mind) pure. It is the true adherence to the Muslim Law (Hadees).
(One can obtain this objective) by keeping one's body unviolated and by always
wearing a turban on head.
The above instruction to keep the body in its original complete form and to wear turban is meant for all, irrespective of sex.
>>>>

Sabat Surat = natural form

Dastaar = a sign of izat/respect/honor/integrity

sira = head on which Dastaar is placed

the meaning as i understand it is that:

Maintaining our natural form gives equivalent respect/ or is equilvalent in respect to wearing dastaar on one's head. This is because in the muslim history and infact not just in muslim culture but in cultures all over the world hair and dastaar were and still are considered a sign of respect and honor.

I think the following from Bhai ManMohan Singh's article applies:

>>>>
1.Keshas are the natural blessing of the Creator. They grow from within the body and develop gradually with age as other parts of the body. As against it, all other symbols or kakaars are external and are put on the body from outside. Even a very devout Sikh may, at times, be forced to remain without any one of the four symbols under circumstances beyond his control. This cannot happen with Keshas, which do not fall in line with the other four symbols and are in a class by themselves.
>>>>

In my understanding guru sahib is stressing the importance of maintaining our natural form.

input from others would be greatly welcome especially where understanding of gurbani is concerned.

Veer Tejwant ji, can you please outline your points as I have done... because i am busy with work and it would be much easier if I could simply see your points outlined in one large post rather then answering specific queries ... we could deal with the whole picture at once and save time.

Thanks.

Jugraj Singh

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Jugraj Singh ji,

I asked you the following:-

I am sure you must have studied the following verse in details as you identify with the article. Can you please give me the whole verse which is in the article and also its meaning and significance. And last but not the least, could you please let me know who GURU SAHIB is talking to in this verse about the turban and why?

v. Sahib Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji's hymn on page 1084 clearly states:

Naapaak Paak Kar Hadoor Hadeesa
Sabat Surat Dastaar Sira.
Make unpure (mind) pure. It is the true adherence to the Muslim Law (Hadees).
(One can obtain this objective) by keeping one's body unviolated and by always
wearing a turban on head.
The above instruction to keep the body in its original complete form and to wear turban is meant for all, irrespective of sex.

Instead of giving the full verse you again copied and pasted the same part which is very small as compare to the whole verse.

I hope that you can acknowledge that a lot of Sikhi rehit is not explicitly visible in the Guru Granth Sahib. I know Bani contains all knowlede and my faith tells me that BAni is infinite and thus contains everything however I am not at the level where I can communicate the meanings of Gurbani to someone else when i don't understand them myself.

Jugraj Singh ji,

Does that mean we should disregard what is in SGGS or shall we consult it before going to the historical events?

Maintaining our natural form gives equivalent respect/ or is equilvalent in respect to wearing dastaar on one's head. This is because in the muslim history and infact not just in muslim culture but in cultures all over the world hair and dastaar were and still are considered a sign of respect and honor.

In other words SARDAARI ( only nobles wore turbans) came before spirituality, Or shall we put it in this way that MIRI had more importance than PIRI.


Thanks for proving my point above in the first post. Sardaari does mean being respectful and honorable.

Your are also wrong about saying that in Islam they do not cut their hair. They do cut their hair and mustaches.

Let me put the whole verse and after studying it fully, I would urge your comments on it and also please let me know how this verse relates to the kakaar as keshki in the article.



Page 1083



mwrU mhlw 5 ] (1083-13)
maaroo mehlaa 5.
Maaroo, Fifth Mehl:
Alh Agm KudweI bMdy ] (1083-13, mwrU, mÚ 5)
alah agam khudaa-ee banday.
O slave of the inaccessible Lord God Allah,

Coif iKAwl dunIAw ky DMDy ] (1083-14, mwrU, mÚ 5)
chhod khi-aal dunee-aa kay DhanDhay.
forsake thoughts of worldly entanglements.

hoie pY Kwk PkIr muswPru iehu drvysu kbUlu drw ]1] (1083-14, mwrU, mÚ 5)
ho-ay pai khaak fakeer musaafar ih darvays kabool daraa. ||1||
Become the dust of the feet of the humble fakeers, and consider yourself a traveller on this journey. O saintly dervish, you shall be approved in the Court of the Lord. ||1||

scu invwj XkIn muslw ] (1083-14, mwrU, mÚ 5)
sach nivaaj yakeen muslaa.
Let Truth be your prayer, and faith your prayer-mat.

mnsw mwir invwirhu Awsw ] (1083-15, mwrU, mÚ 5)
mansaa maar nivaarihu aasaa.
Subdue your desires, and overcome your hopes.

dyh msIiq mnu maulwxw klm KudweI pwku Krw ]2] (1083-15, mwrU, mÚ 5)
dayh maseet man ma-ulaanaa kalam khudaa-ee paak kharaa. ||2||
Let your body be the mosque, and your mind the priest. Let true purity be God's Word for you. ||2||

srw srIAiq ly kMmwvhu ] (1083-16, mwrU, mÚ 5)
saraa saree-at lay kammaavahu.
Let your practice be to live the spiritual life.

qrIkiq qrk Koij tolwvhu ] (1083-16, mwrU, mÚ 5)
tareekat tarak khoj tolaavahu.
Let your spiritual cleansing be to renounce the world and seek God.

mwrPiq mnu mwrhu Abdwlw imlhu hkIkiq ijqu iPir n mrw ]3] (1083-16, mwrU, mÚ 5)
maarfat man maarahu abdaalaa milhu hakeekat jit fir na maraa. ||3||
Let control of the mind be your spiritual wisdom, O holy man; meeting with God, you shall never die again. ||3||

kurwxu kqyb idl mwih kmwhI ] (1083-17, mwrU, mÚ 5)
kuraan katayb dil maahi kamaahee.
Practice within your heart the teachings of the Koran and the Bible;

ds Aaurwq rKhu bd rwhI ] (1083-17, mwrU, mÚ 5)
das a-uraat rakhahu bad raahee.
restrain the ten sensory organs from straying into evil.

pMc mrd isdik ly bwDhu KYir sbUrI kbUl prw ]4] (1083-18, mwrU, mÚ 5)
panch marad sidak lay baaDhhu khair sabooree kabool paraa. ||4||
Tie up the five demons of desire with faith, charity and contentment, and you shall be acceptable. ||4||

mkw imhr rojw pY Kwkw ] (1083-18, mwrU, mÚ 5)
makaa mihar rojaa pai khaakaa.
Let compassion be your Mecca, and the dust of the feet of the holy your fast.

iBsqu pIr lPj kmwie AMdwjw ] (1083-19, mwrU, mÚ 5)
bhisat peer lafaj kamaa-ay andaajaa.
Let Paradise be your practice of the Prophet's Word.

hUr nUr musku KudwieAw bMdgI Alh Awlw hujrw ]5] (1083-19, mwrU, mÚ 5)
hoor noor musak khudaa-i-aa bandagee alah aalaa hujraa. ||5||
God is the beauty, the light and the fragrance. Meditation on Allah is the secluded meditation chamber. ||5||



Page 1084

scu kmwvY soeI kwjI ] (1084-1, mwrU, mÚ 5)
sach kamaavai so-ee kaajee.
He alone is a Qazi, who practices the Truth.

jo idlu soDY soeI hwjI ] (1084-1, mwrU, mÚ 5)
jo dil soDhai so-ee haajee.
He alone is a Haji, a pilgrim to Mecca, who purifies his heart.

so mulw mlaUn invwrY so drvysu ijsu isPiq Drw ]6] (1084-1, mwrU, mÚ 5)
so mulaa mala-oon nivaarai so darvays jis sifat Dharaa. ||6||
He alone is a Mullah, who banishes evil; he alone is a saintly dervish, who takes the Support of the Lord's Praise. ||6||

sBy vKq sBy kir vylw ] Kwlku Xwid idlY mih maulw ] (1084-2, mwrU, mÚ 5)
sabhay vakhat sabhay kar vaylaa. khaalak yaad dilai meh ma-ulaa.
Always, at every moment, remember God, the Creator within your heart.

qsbI Xwid krhu ds mrdnu suMniq sIlu bMDwin brw ]7] (1084-2, mwrU, mÚ 5)
tasbee yaad karahu das mardan sunat seel banDhaan baraa. ||7||
Let your meditation beads be the subjugation of the ten senses. Let good conduct and self-restraint be your circumcision. ||7||

idl mih jwnhu sB iPlhwlw ] (1084-3, mwrU, mÚ 5)
dil meh jaanhu sabh filhaalaa.
You must know in your heart that everything is temporary.

iKlKwnw ibrwdr hmU jMjwlw ] (1084-3, mwrU, mÚ 5)
khilkhaanaa biraadar hamoo janjaalaa.
Family, household and siblings are all entanglements.

mIr mlk aumry PwnwieAw eyk mukwm Kudwie drw ]8] (1084-4, mwrU, mÚ 5)
meer malak umray faanaa-i-aa ayk mukaam khudaa-ay daraa. ||8||
Kings, rulers and nobles are mortal and transitory; only God's Gate is the permanent place. ||8||

Avil isPiq dUjI swbUrI ] (1084-4, mwrU, mÚ 5)
aval sifat doojee saabooree.
First, is the Lord's Praise; second, contentment;

qIjY hlymI cauQY KYrI ] (1084-5, mwrU, mÚ 5)
teejai halaymee cha-uthai khairee.
third, humility, and fourth, giving to charities.

pMjvY pMjy iekqu mukwmY eyih pMij vKq qyry Aprprw ]9] (1084-5, mwrU, mÚ 5)
punjvai panjay ikat mukaamai ayhi panj vakhat tayray aparparaa. ||9||
Fifth is to hold one's desires in restraint. These are the five most sublime daily prayers. ||9||

sglI jwin krhu maudIPw ] (1084-6, mwrU, mÚ 5)
saglee jaan karahu ma-udeefaa.
Let your daily worship be the knowledge that God is everywhere.

bd Aml Coif krhu hiQ kUjw ] (1084-6, mwrU, mÚ 5)
bad amal chhod karahu hath koojaa.
Let renunciation of evil actions be the water-jug you carry.

Kudwie eyku buiJ dyvhu bWgW burgU brKurdwr Krw ]10] (1084-6, mwrU, mÚ 5)
khudaa-ay ayk bujh dayvhu baaNgaaN burgoo barkhurdaar kharaa. ||10||
Let realization of the One Lord God be your call to prayer; be a good child of God - let this be your trumpet. ||10||

hku hlwlu bKorhu Kwxw ] (1084-7, mwrU, mÚ 5)
hak halaal bakhorahu khaanaa.
Let what is earned righteously be your blessed food.

idl drIAwau Dovhu mYlwxw ] (1084-7, mwrU, mÚ 5)
dil daree-aa-o Dhovahu mailaanaa.
Wash away pollution with the river of your heart.

pIru pCwxY iBsqI soeI AjrweIlu n doj Trw ]11] (1084-7, mwrU, mÚ 5)
peer pachhaanai bhistee so-ee ajraa-eel na doj tharaa. ||11||
One who realizes the Prophet attains heaven. Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death, does not cast him into hell. ||11||

kwieAw ikrdwr Aaurq XkInw ] (1084-8, mwrU, mÚ 5)
kaa-i-aa kirdaar a-urat yakeenaa.
Let good deeds be your body, and faith your bride.

rMg qmwsy mwix hkInw ] (1084-8, mwrU, mÚ 5)
rang tamaasay maan hakeenaa.
Play and enjoy the Lord's love and delight.

nwpwk pwku kir hdUir hdIsw swbq sUriq dsqwr isrw ]12] (1084-9, mwrU, mÚ 5)
naapaak paak kar hadoor hadeesaa saabat soorat dastaar siraa. ||12||
Purify what is impure, and let the Lord's Presence be your religious tradition. Let your total awareness be the turban on your head. ||12||

muslmwxu mom idil hovY ] (1084-9, mwrU, mÚ 5)
musalmaan mom dil hovai.
To be Muslim is to be kind-hearted,

AMqr kI mlu idl qy DovY ] (1084-10, mwrU, mÚ 5)
antar kee mal dil tay Dhovai.
and wash away pollution from within the heart.

dunIAw rMg n AwvY nyVY ijau kusm pwtu iGau pwku hrw ]13] (1084-10, mwrU, mÚ 5)
dunee-aa rang na aavai nayrhai ji-o kusam paat ghi-o paak haraa. ||13||
He does not even approach worldly pleasures; he is pure, like flowers, silk, ghee and the deer-skin. ||13||

jw kau imhr imhr imhrvwnw ] (1084-11, mwrU, mÚ 5)
jaa ka-o mihar mihar miharvaanaa.
One who is blessed with the mercy and compassion of the Merciful Lord,

soeI mrdu mrdu mrdwnw ] (1084-11, mwrU, mÚ 5)
so-ee marad marad mardaanaa.
is the manliest man among men.

soeI syKu mswieku hwjI so bMdw ijsu njir nrw ]14] (1084-11, mwrU, mÚ 5)
so-ee saykh masaa-ik haajee so bandaa jis najar naraa. ||14||
He alone is a Shaykh, a preacher, a Haji, and he alone is God's slave, who is blessed with God's Grace. ||14||

kudriq kwdr krx krImw ] (1084-12, mwrU, mÚ 5)
kudrat kaadar karan kareemaa.
The Creator Lord has Creative Power; the Merciful Lord has Mercy.

isPiq muhbiq AQwh rhImw ] (1084-12, mwrU, mÚ 5)
sifat muhabat athaah raheemaa.
The Praises and the Love of the Merciful Lord are unfathomable.

hku hukmu scu KudwieAw buiJ nwnk bMid Klws qrw ]15]3]12] (1084-13, mwrU, mÚ 5)
hak hukam sach khudaa-i-aa bujh naanak band khalaas taraa. ||15||3||12||
Realize the True Hukam, the Command of the Lord, O Nanak; you shall be released from bondage, and carried across. ||15||3||12||


Jugraj Ji,

Please elaborate how the above verse is related to the article?

I don't think you are familiar with concept of bujjar kurehit.

1) cutting hair
2) eating meat
3) intoxicants
4) pre marital sex/ adultery

if you do any of these you are not a sikh anymore.

Regarding number two of the above , I would like you to read the following thread so that we can discuss it later.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/guru-ki-maseet.309/


Tejwant

 

[Jugraj Singh]

Firstly i never said muslims keep unshorn hair. re-read my post to clarify this. I said their are a lot of people who give importance to dastaar and kesh.

The gurbani part that I quoted explains the significance of turban. I am not saying that the Guru Sahib was promoting keski in the article but he did clearly identify it with honor and integrity. My translation is slightly different from Bhai Manmohan Singh's..I hope u picked up on this.

As per the article that was written by Bh. Manmohan Singh it is clear that he also has noticed that the turban is being assoicated with honor and integrity.



You said

>>>>Does that mean we should disregard what is in SGGS or shall we consult it before going to the historical events?
>>>>

If you re-read my post then it will become clear that I belive Gurbani to be above all else. WAHO WAHO BANI NIRANKAR HAI. "Gur bhin ghor andhar" "Without guru there is total darkness".

However, how do u refute my points. You have chosen to ignore them.

>>>>
In other words SARDAARI ( only nobles wore turbans) came before spirituality, Or shall we put it in this way that MIRI had more importance than PIRI.
>>>>>

This I don't understand. Turban is being associated with integrity and honor and to a Sikh these are important virtues. What does Sardari have to do with anything. Sardari is a system based on land ownership and leasing of one's land to others.

You are right that mostly nobles wore turbans until Guru Sahib came along. Don't you see what he did?

People of the time were opressed. They had no integrity, honor and they were at a point where they had no will to fight. Guru sahib gave them hope and through his love made them realize that all can be one with God. Here these people were looked down upon and couldn't even look at the nobles and muslim rulers in the eye when Guru sahib tells them that they can be one with God.

He gave them inner strength and integrity and them gave them the means to defend that honor. Kirpa + an = grace + honor = kirpan

Ofcourse he blessed us with a dastaar but I will not delve any further into why because it's not my place to do so. I think I've provided enough context to clearly see that Turban in Sikhi is not associated with Sardari but with honor and integrity and ultimately with following Guru hukams.

You do realize that there are historical accounts that mention guru sahib personally tying a keski on Mai Bhago's head. Did he want to make her a sardar? This is an illogical and baseless conclusion.

Do you suggest that all Sikhs (this would include men as well) take off their dastaars because YOU associate them with Sardari?

1) You don't present any clear connection between SArdari and Keski.

2) and because of that you have failed to establish what Miri Piri has to do with anything.

I think that it is a slap in the face for the Sikh community that Sikh women walk around without dastaars.

Do you know how the psychology of slavery works. Initially when slaves are captured they fight for their freedom and they remember better days. They have hope and honor.

Eventually they give into their predicament. They however do dream of freedom. Their children however are born into slavery and are told stories of freedom but have never experienced it so are not so motivated to pursue it until their current circumstance becomes unbearable.

The women in the Sikh community have been more subdued then even the black slaves.

Why?

1) they lost their dastaars.

2) They forgot their history. They forgot the sacrifices and strength of Bibi's such as Mai Bhago.

3) Their condition grew worse and worse every year and YET THEY STILL HAD NO DESIRE TO ESCAPE. IN 1947 DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY SIKH WOMEN WERE RAPED. IN 1984 DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY SIKH WOMEN WERE RAPED IN FRONT OF THEIR FATHERS AND BROTHERS. DID YOU KNOW THAT IN SOME INSTANCES FATHERS WERE FORCED ONTO THEIR DAUGHTERS. THE SIKH WOMEN STILL DIDN'T WAKE UP. THEY STILL REFUSED TO ACCEPT THEIR HERITAGE AND POWER THAT WAS THEIR RIGHT AS DAUGHTERS OF GURU GOBIND SINGH AND SISTERS OF THE SAHIBZADAY.

i can not imagine a tyar-bar tyar Singhni ever being raped. She would fight until every last drop of blood left her body before she ever gave in. A shastar dhari bibi with dastaar can not be conquered ... only killed. And even then merely her body.

Guru sahib clearly states,
"Jab lug Khalsa rahey niara. Tab lug tej dio mai sara. Jab eh gahai biparan key reet mai na karoan inkey parteet"

meaning:

"Whilst my Khalsa stays unique i will give them my strength. When they fall into the ways of the brahmans then I will trust them no longer"

And we wonder why Sikhs have had to face such shamefull times in the recent history. IT'S BECAUSE GURU SAHIB DOENS'T TRUST US ANYMORE.

What have we become compared to the Sikhs of the old. Each life was a legend, a tale of bravery, faith and unconquerable spirit. Our lives are tales of gossip, fashion and dilution of Sikhi rehit.

may guru sahib do kirpa on all of us. We need it badly.

Guru Rakha. Dass,

Jugraj Singh

p.s. i provide the info I deem necessary to make my points. I provided the translation i felt was an improvement on Bhai manmohan Singh's and proved my point and didn't feel the need to include the whole shabad.

 

[Tejwant Singh]

Jugraj Singh Ji,

Firstly i never said muslims keep unshorn hair. re-read my post to clarify this. I said their are a lot of people who give importance to dastaar and kesh.

How can importance be given by cutting hair as you very well know that muslims do cut their hair?

Further you said the following:-

the meaning as i understand it is that:

Maintaining our natural form gives equivalent respect/ or is equilvalent in respect to wearing dastaar on one's head. This is because in the muslim history and infact not just in muslim culture but in cultures all over the world hair and dastaar were and still are considered a sign of respect and honor.

Does keeping natural form for a muslim is keeping unshorn hair? .

The verse given in the article has nothing to do with Kesh or Keshki and twice you have based your argument on the same verse to emphasize your point of Keshki as Kakaar. In fact the Verse says something totally different and its meanings have been twisted to justify the article.

Following it what it actually means:-

nwpwk pwku kir hdUir hdIsw swbq sUriq dsqwr isrw ]12] (1084-9, mwrU, mÚ 5)
naapaak paak kar hadoor hadeesaa saabat soorat dastaar siraa. ||12||
Purify what is impure, and let the Lord's Presence be your religious tradition. Let your total awareness be the turban on your head. ||12||




Guru Sahib is using metaphors to show a muslim how to become a better lover of ALLAH. In this respect Turban is used as a metaphor in the verse. It is nothing to do with the actual wearing of turban or with Keshki.

The bottom line is that the verse from SGGS that is in the article supposedly written by Bhai Manmohan Singh ji has no connection with keshki or Kakaar. The author without reading and understanding the whole verse picked a couple of lines to promote his own agenda.

The rest of your justifications are based on your personal views which has no backing of Gurbani. Next time when you want to prove a point , please quote Gurbani first and then you can give your personal opinions or rehatnaamas. Lets not try to distort Gurbani to propagate what you may honestly believe in.

If you have any solid proof about Keshki as Kakaar, please do not hesitate to enlighten us with it.


Tejwant

 

[Jugraj Singh]

This is what I said,

>>>>This is because in the muslim history and infact not just in muslim culture but in cultures all over the world hair and dastaar were and still are considered a sign of respect and honor.
>>>>

What is so confusing about this? I said they give it importance and they do. ARe you actually going to argue the point that there are others in the world besides Sikhs who think that dastaar and kesh are important. Many hindu sects shave off their heads but at one time in their history it was an insult to have your hair cut off. It was considered worse then death. Besides muslims acknowledge the bible as a holy book and within the bible is the story of Samson. If you aren't familiar with it go look it up. I hope this particular issue has been cleared for you.

You said,

>>>
Does keeping natural form for a muslim is keeping unshorn hair? .
>>>

The natural form is the same for all humans beings. It is with kesh intact on the body. Guru sahib is telling them to keep their natural form regardless of what the kuran might have to say. he is giving them a direct hukam.

You also said,

>>>The verse given in the article has nothing to do with Kesh or Keshki and twice you have based your argument on the same verse to emphasize your point of Keshki as Kakaar. In fact the Verse says something totally different and its meanings have been twisted to justify the article.
>>>>

You are right in that I have given the pankti twice and I've failed to make my point clear. Due to this debate I was forced to do research on the pankti. I have come to a few conclusions:

Before I understood the pankti as associating dastaar with honor and integrity and thereby was using it to refute your point about dastaar being associated with SARDARI.

Now however as I understand it more I must say that the pankti does infact say to wear a dastaar.

This is my reasoning. The word Soorat is different from Surat.

According to gurbani viakaran the word Surat means consciousness and it is always seen with an aunkad. On the other hand the word Soorat has a dulaunkad. Nowhere in the rest of the Guru Granth Sahib jee is the meaning understood to be counsciouness where the word has dulaunkad. Therefore the word can not mean consciousness but instead means form. Gurbani is consistent.

Guru sahib in his updesh to muslims is clearly giving them 3 hukams in that pankti.

1) Purify what is impure, and let the Lord's Presence be your religious tradition.

2) Guru sahib then says that ," Sabat Soorat" meaning "natural form" as I established earlier.

3) Dastaar Sira. Guru sahib is clearly giving 3 hukams.

The last point is established by Gurbani viakran (grammar) and I was not aware of it before today.

Although culturally muslims give importance to the turban, as i mentioned earlier, it is not mandatory according to Islam. It is a cultural thing.

Guru sahib is clearly telling them to maintain SAbat Soorat and also a dastaar. Meaning that he is giving them hukam of dastaar.

I hope this clears any confusion.

I am learning a lot.

However this only proves that Guru Sahib gave hukam of dastaar and not that keski is an actual kakkar.

To prove that keski is a kakkar I refer you back to Bh. Manmohan Singh's article and ask you to refute any points that he has made and prove him wrong in his assessment.
Having dealt with the issue of the gurbani pankti.

>>>
The bottom line is that the verse from SGGS that is in the article supposedly written by Bhai Manmohan Singh ji has no connection with keshki or Kakaar. The author without reading and understanding the whole verse picked a couple of lines to promote his own agenda.
>>>

Well i hope that the new information on the pankti clears up any confusion.

What agenda? Equality for men and women? Keeping our unique lifestyle? Yeah sounds like something the RSS would promote, definitely a hidden agenda. I mean asking women to follow guru's hukams ... the nerve of some people.

>>>>
If you have any solid proof about Keshki as Kakaar, please do not hesitate to enlighten us with it.
>>>>

you have still the refute any of the points made by Bhai ManMohan Singh. Besides just because it is someone's opinion doesn't mean it's not right.

A lot of Sikhi rehit can not be explicitly seen in the Guru Granth Sahib. it is my firm belief that it's their but we are not at the level to see it.

Let me ask you this? Do you do jap sahib and chaupai sahib paath? It doesn't say anywhere in the guru granth sahib to do so... infact the guru granth sahib doesn't even contain dasam pita's bani.

If keski is not a kakkar then is it okay for Sikh men to walk around witout covering their heads. ARe we merely following culture by wearing turbans. Get real. The pankti "sabat soorat dastar sira" proves clearly that guru sahib considered the dastaar a must.

you have been stuck on a few points and have completely ignored the rest of the article by Bhai ManMohan Singh. Why is this? I would like ur opinion on the rest of it ... it will force me to do more research.

 

[Jugraj Singh]

I just wanted to add a few things.

Applying your logic can you prove that kesh are kakkars? Bhai Manmohan Singhs article make a very strong case for Keski can you provide a similar article that proves kesh to be a kakkar.

You seem like the kind of person who questions things before accepting them. What was your basis for accepting kesh as a kakkar? just because people belived it you started beliving it too? Did you do independent research? Did you do ardaas in front of guru sahib to lead u to the truth?

looking forward to further discussion.

I would also like to apologize for my tone during so far during this discussion. I was a bit angry with your comments about Jatha and well certain negative sentiments leaked into my writing.

Daas,

Jugraj Singh

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Thats where Dasham Granth helps

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

At last of Dasham Granth,Tenth master clearly state that

Five ks Are
Kes
Kachchh
Karrha
Karad(Kirpan)
Kangha

And three wrong thing are Harama forbidda

Huqqa,Hazamat and Halal.

This also repeated by one of his huqamnamah to sangat of Kabul,

Kes are to be kept.

Regarding Halal,it is termed as Abhkhya(language of infidals or Mallechha as per Hindus) Ka(of) Kutha(Killed after kohna(terrmed as per Punjabi(Refer Dr Sahib Singh Ji) is to give pain)) Mass(Meat).

Keski is notting as such Kakar,From word of Kes Kes(Hair) Ki(of) ,some of ouor friends have made wrong interpetation.Das respect there views but sorry to difffer.

Regarding French issue,The Governtment has told to not let thy relgious symbol be visible.Kes if not covered by turban are visible and hense there bringing open is against the law.

Either Kes are to be cut or covered by Turban as per culture(so it is a cultural symabol).

Harping by those ,who say Keski or turban is religous symbol has rather spoiled the case of Sikh,Which would have been sorted out once it came in limelight.

It is crazy but true that some of our owm people did type of act and deprived Sikh children thier cultural right of turban.

 

[Jugraj Singh]

Re: Thats where Dasham Granth helps

I am not sure you are aware that the dasam granths wasn't really written by Guru Gobind Singh jee. It contains Guru Sahib's writings ofcourse but wasn't compiled until after Guru sahib joti joyt sama gai.

I am aware that Baba Gurbachan Singh of Taksal claims in his writings that it was but historically most scholars agree that it was compiled after Guru Sahib. Infact I would recommend that you read the book "Sikhi Kion Nahein faildee" by Sub. Didar Singh.

Most scholars also agree that many of the compositinos within the dasam granth were added in after the fact and don't consider the compositions Gurbani.

Prove to me that Guru Sahib wrote about the 5 kakkars in the dasam granth. YOu can't. It is a made up story. Like I said before the dasam granth was not compiled by Guru Gobind Singh jee. It contains some of his writings but he never officially compiled it.

Do research and post your findings on the forum and we will discuss the authenticity of some "banis" from the dasam granth.

Looking forward to further discussion.

 

[vijaydeep Singh]

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Das never comments before doing reserach.Have you read Jaffer Nammah.And do you understand.chi shooma Farsi ro me fahmeedeed.Tell Das what he wrote.

Das can say that The code (Maryada)given above is from the same person who wrote Jaffernamaah.

Reason.Both has kadeemi Farsi(old Farsi),Which was of that time.It has arebic vocabulary in aboundance plus free use of Indian words(five Ks) here.

Most valid version of Dasham Granth Ji is bhai Mani Singh Ji Version.Last it was seen by DSGPC at hanuman road.It is simple,we can get the carbon or nuclera dating of that copy yet it is as old as assault of lahore by army of Ranjeet Singh.Ahamadis and hindutva people simlarly raise fingures about Adi Beer of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.(one at Kartarpur (District Jallendher).Even they quiestion about validity of the Bani of First Master.

It is Faith that matters and Guru does prove himself.Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ji were too compiled after the life of First Master. Bhai Mani Singh Ji are held at high esteem by Sikh.In bible acts of apostes too has praise that is after Jesus.But Khalsa ,who is roop(form) of Guru and who attained martyerdom(Bhai Mani Singh Ji),If he could not be trusted then why person like Das will trust prsent days missioanries.

Get das the single verse from official copy of Dasham Granth.If afraid(due to so called Graphical account of Triya Charitars) then send it via PM.Das can prove that non of the verse is against Gurumat.BUT remember bring it as it is.No Translations but as it is in Braj,Punjabi or Farsi and das will give you the correct explaination.Das has faith in Guru and Guru will help as Guru helped the Sikhs in Past.

Akal bless. And sorry if some one is hurt.Das is not offensive towards any of the fellow Sikh but often RSS sponcers people tend to misquote Dasham Granth so that Sikhs hate it ,While for Das,Dasham Granth is the biggest weapon to eliminate Hindutva.