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Karma - Birth, Life And Death
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<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 147314" data-attributes="member: 586"><p>Randip ji,</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I suspect that the inference is yours and this must be based on some misconception about karma. There may be other reasons why the concept is not emphasized that much, but I don't think that it is because it will otherwise lead to a belief in caste system. Perhaps the people at the time had a strong tendency to think about karma more as “fate”. Perhaps they confused causes and results such that what is in fact karma or cause now, is seen as being predetermined and therefore no effort is made towards doing what must be done. </p><p></p><p>Indeed it could also be that those who did believe in the caste system would then be encouraged to believe in it even more strongly. However this is not the same as saying that caste system is a natural consequence of the belief in karma. On the other hand, some here have suggested that the concept of Karma was in fact invented by those who wished to perpetuate the belief in caste system. Although it can and has been used for the purpose of justifying it by some groups of people, the fault lies in the particular tendency on the part of those people and not in the concept of karma, would it not? </p><p></p><p>After all, one can see that the same tendency exists also amongst people who do not believe in karma, for example, those who believe in the superiority of particular race of people or those who think in terms of class. Hitler and the people who practiced slavery come to mind. Those who have the tendency will latch on to any existing beliefs or create new ones in order to justify continue doing what they do. So why not acknowledge the tendency instead of dismissing the concept which one group of people happen to misunderstand and misapplied?</p><p></p><p>Besides, for every one person who has wrongly applied the concept of karma, many times more have been and continue to be inspired to good moral conduct because of it. And this is in spite of having only a limited understanding. So are we not then throwing the baby out with the bath water?</p><p></p><p>Indeed I would like to try and show you in this response, why a better understanding about karma would lead one to see no reason for pride of any kind and this includes 'pride of birth'. I'll start off with a couple of points which will likely put you off even more, but this may be necessary as a kind of preamble, so please be patient.</p><p></p><p>According to the Buddha, although human birth is result of good karma and the most ideal in terms of opportunity to develop wisdom, however in terms of simply being result of deeds in the past, there are several other planes of existence, better than this one. Second, (those with feminist tendencies may not like to hear this) being born a female is a result of karma of an inferior kind as compared to that of a male. This however, is related not to any mental capacity, but to that of the physical body. But of course, this then has the consequence in that a Buddha can't then be a female. Enlightened, yes, but only as a disciple, not as a Buddha. Also, within this and any other realm of existence, several degrees exist in terms of the kind of birth. A person handicapped from birth is said to be a result of karma of inferior kind as compared to a normal person. Also we can talk generally, about being born in particular places and into families with the idea that one either receives more good results or more bad results in the form of experiences through the five senses.</p><p></p><p>When it comes to mental capacity, there is also the fact of being born with different “roots”. And this has nothing to do with being male or female. A person, mentally retarded from birth is said to be with no roots. But generally a human being is said to be with either two or three roots, one, with non-attachment and non-aversion and the other with these two plus non-delusion. Those with the latter are therefore said to have a greater potential for wisdom. But of course, unless someone is born handicapped, one can't know who is with two and who is with three roots. </p><p></p><p>All this is however only a very broad distinction. The fact is that due to many factors, including such things as reproductive karma, supportive karma and destructive karma, there are countless permutations. </p><p></p><p>The above must no doubt come across as pure “theory”, and not only to you, but also to a good extent, me as well. I however have a different background, one which you do not share, at least with reference to this particular life. And the main difference is that mine consists of moments where karma is also seen in terms of experiences of the present moment, and this makes it more than just theory. So even though some of the things that I've written about has not and will never be understood directly, they however are informed by a level of confidence got as a result of understanding accumulated over time. On the other hand, as far as I can see, you come in not only with some misconception about karma, but other preconceived ideas as well. </p><p></p><p>And before I proceed further, I'd like to say this.</p><p>Karma is to be *understood*. And the first step is to acknowledge that it is all about the moment to moment experience that makes up our life. Any rejection of the concept must then mean that it has been conceived of as an abstract idea with no relevance to the experience “now”. Perhaps one will then seek to have “proof” of karma instead of trying to understand it, but this will not lead anywhere, since it is clearly a wrong approach. Even if one were transported to other realms of existence or made somehow to have a vision about one's own past lives, this does absolutely nothing to reduce doubt. One may perhaps “believe” in it, but this belief will not be with any degree of confidence, since it is based simply on giving value to one idea over another, and not on the development of understanding. And when it comes to this understanding, even at the baby-steps level, one does not ask for evidence outside of the present moment, but the understanding itself is its own proof. With this comes the conviction that here and now is where the understanding must be. Although once this has happened, one may perhaps also begin to see evidence of karma in the outside world as well.</p><p></p><p>But I’ll continue.</p><p></p><p>Although I do not believe in such things as the caste system, I do however believe that we are not all born equal. This is obvious not only when I consider the effects as observed in the conventional world, but also when considering the varying types and degrees of moral and immoral actions and reasoning that the cause must match the result. And although none of this ever translates into what could then be conceived of as castes or classes of people, however if someone were to mention to me that a particular person is of high birth, I can take this as a metaphor instead of just rejecting it. </p><p></p><p>A metaphor for what?</p><p>The fact of being in a situation where one then gets to experience more pleasant objects through the five senses and the positive side of the eight worldly conditions, namely, pleasure, gain, praise and honour as opposed to pain, loss, blame and disrepute. This implies that it is not so much what any person thinks, namely that such and such person is a brahmin, or he is an aristocrat, or he is rich etc. but who receives more good fruits. And of course there is always the possibility of other karmas coming in to change the course of events. For example a gardener living in a rich and kind man's house in pleasant conditions may well be considered better-off than some billionaire who owns a big mansion but is a miser or too sick to even eat. So although the one that conditioned birth itself was one thing and what most people would continue to go by, the situation in terms of the reality now is actually reversed. Any reason to feel proud though, if there is the kind of understanding?</p><p></p><p>Besides, we know that what conditioned the rebirth is the last consciousness just before the death of the previous life. This consciousness, just like any one now, arose by conditions beyond control. So if one person happens to be born into good conditions in this life and someone else into a bad one, should anyone take any credit for it? Even the Buddha-to-be, someone who in countless lives ago was ripe to become enlightened, but due to conditions put that off so as to be able to help other beings several aeons down the road, even he during this time, ended up being born as animals, again and again.</p><p></p><p>Moreover, someone who is reaping the fruits of his good deeds done in the past, if he does not see any value in good deeds now, chances of his having good rebirth in the future is greatly reduced. But even if a person has lived a life full of good deeds, if he is yet to become enlightened, there is no saying what his next life is going to be, given that tendency towards evil has not been eradicated and can arise at any time at all. </p><p></p><p>And let us not forget the most important point, that someone who has any understanding about karma, this must be based on his understanding the difference between good and evil states as it occurs in daily life. Given this, would he then not know better than to encourage any kind of evil? Would it not be that as his understanding develops, there'd be moments of shame towards his own ignorance, attachment, aversion and pride? Therefore if someone were to be clinging to his own 'birth' and discriminating, can it be said that he has any understanding about karma at all? </p><p></p><p>So really when anyone suggests that the concept of karma leads to a belief in the caste system, it should be noted what they are talking against is not what karma really is, but some kind of wrong conception about it. Indeed it would come across as imperative, that the only cure for this is to try and develop a correct understanding about it instead of dismissing it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 147314, member: 586"] Randip ji, I suspect that the inference is yours and this must be based on some misconception about karma. There may be other reasons why the concept is not emphasized that much, but I don't think that it is because it will otherwise lead to a belief in caste system. Perhaps the people at the time had a strong tendency to think about karma more as “fate”. Perhaps they confused causes and results such that what is in fact karma or cause now, is seen as being predetermined and therefore no effort is made towards doing what must be done. Indeed it could also be that those who did believe in the caste system would then be encouraged to believe in it even more strongly. However this is not the same as saying that caste system is a natural consequence of the belief in karma. On the other hand, some here have suggested that the concept of Karma was in fact invented by those who wished to perpetuate the belief in caste system. Although it can and has been used for the purpose of justifying it by some groups of people, the fault lies in the particular tendency on the part of those people and not in the concept of karma, would it not? After all, one can see that the same tendency exists also amongst people who do not believe in karma, for example, those who believe in the superiority of particular race of people or those who think in terms of class. Hitler and the people who practiced slavery come to mind. Those who have the tendency will latch on to any existing beliefs or create new ones in order to justify continue doing what they do. So why not acknowledge the tendency instead of dismissing the concept which one group of people happen to misunderstand and misapplied? Besides, for every one person who has wrongly applied the concept of karma, many times more have been and continue to be inspired to good moral conduct because of it. And this is in spite of having only a limited understanding. So are we not then throwing the baby out with the bath water? Indeed I would like to try and show you in this response, why a better understanding about karma would lead one to see no reason for pride of any kind and this includes 'pride of birth'. I'll start off with a couple of points which will likely put you off even more, but this may be necessary as a kind of preamble, so please be patient. According to the Buddha, although human birth is result of good karma and the most ideal in terms of opportunity to develop wisdom, however in terms of simply being result of deeds in the past, there are several other planes of existence, better than this one. Second, (those with feminist tendencies may not like to hear this) being born a female is a result of karma of an inferior kind as compared to that of a male. This however, is related not to any mental capacity, but to that of the physical body. But of course, this then has the consequence in that a Buddha can't then be a female. Enlightened, yes, but only as a disciple, not as a Buddha. Also, within this and any other realm of existence, several degrees exist in terms of the kind of birth. A person handicapped from birth is said to be a result of karma of inferior kind as compared to a normal person. Also we can talk generally, about being born in particular places and into families with the idea that one either receives more good results or more bad results in the form of experiences through the five senses. When it comes to mental capacity, there is also the fact of being born with different “roots”. And this has nothing to do with being male or female. A person, mentally retarded from birth is said to be with no roots. But generally a human being is said to be with either two or three roots, one, with non-attachment and non-aversion and the other with these two plus non-delusion. Those with the latter are therefore said to have a greater potential for wisdom. But of course, unless someone is born handicapped, one can't know who is with two and who is with three roots. All this is however only a very broad distinction. The fact is that due to many factors, including such things as reproductive karma, supportive karma and destructive karma, there are countless permutations. The above must no doubt come across as pure “theory”, and not only to you, but also to a good extent, me as well. I however have a different background, one which you do not share, at least with reference to this particular life. And the main difference is that mine consists of moments where karma is also seen in terms of experiences of the present moment, and this makes it more than just theory. So even though some of the things that I've written about has not and will never be understood directly, they however are informed by a level of confidence got as a result of understanding accumulated over time. On the other hand, as far as I can see, you come in not only with some misconception about karma, but other preconceived ideas as well. And before I proceed further, I'd like to say this. Karma is to be *understood*. And the first step is to acknowledge that it is all about the moment to moment experience that makes up our life. Any rejection of the concept must then mean that it has been conceived of as an abstract idea with no relevance to the experience “now”. Perhaps one will then seek to have “proof” of karma instead of trying to understand it, but this will not lead anywhere, since it is clearly a wrong approach. Even if one were transported to other realms of existence or made somehow to have a vision about one's own past lives, this does absolutely nothing to reduce doubt. One may perhaps “believe” in it, but this belief will not be with any degree of confidence, since it is based simply on giving value to one idea over another, and not on the development of understanding. And when it comes to this understanding, even at the baby-steps level, one does not ask for evidence outside of the present moment, but the understanding itself is its own proof. With this comes the conviction that here and now is where the understanding must be. Although once this has happened, one may perhaps also begin to see evidence of karma in the outside world as well. But I’ll continue. Although I do not believe in such things as the caste system, I do however believe that we are not all born equal. This is obvious not only when I consider the effects as observed in the conventional world, but also when considering the varying types and degrees of moral and immoral actions and reasoning that the cause must match the result. And although none of this ever translates into what could then be conceived of as castes or classes of people, however if someone were to mention to me that a particular person is of high birth, I can take this as a metaphor instead of just rejecting it. A metaphor for what? The fact of being in a situation where one then gets to experience more pleasant objects through the five senses and the positive side of the eight worldly conditions, namely, pleasure, gain, praise and honour as opposed to pain, loss, blame and disrepute. This implies that it is not so much what any person thinks, namely that such and such person is a brahmin, or he is an aristocrat, or he is rich etc. but who receives more good fruits. And of course there is always the possibility of other karmas coming in to change the course of events. For example a gardener living in a rich and kind man's house in pleasant conditions may well be considered better-off than some billionaire who owns a big mansion but is a miser or too sick to even eat. So although the one that conditioned birth itself was one thing and what most people would continue to go by, the situation in terms of the reality now is actually reversed. Any reason to feel proud though, if there is the kind of understanding? Besides, we know that what conditioned the rebirth is the last consciousness just before the death of the previous life. This consciousness, just like any one now, arose by conditions beyond control. So if one person happens to be born into good conditions in this life and someone else into a bad one, should anyone take any credit for it? Even the Buddha-to-be, someone who in countless lives ago was ripe to become enlightened, but due to conditions put that off so as to be able to help other beings several aeons down the road, even he during this time, ended up being born as animals, again and again. Moreover, someone who is reaping the fruits of his good deeds done in the past, if he does not see any value in good deeds now, chances of his having good rebirth in the future is greatly reduced. But even if a person has lived a life full of good deeds, if he is yet to become enlightened, there is no saying what his next life is going to be, given that tendency towards evil has not been eradicated and can arise at any time at all. And let us not forget the most important point, that someone who has any understanding about karma, this must be based on his understanding the difference between good and evil states as it occurs in daily life. Given this, would he then not know better than to encourage any kind of evil? Would it not be that as his understanding develops, there'd be moments of shame towards his own ignorance, attachment, aversion and pride? Therefore if someone were to be clinging to his own 'birth' and discriminating, can it be said that he has any understanding about karma at all? So really when anyone suggests that the concept of karma leads to a belief in the caste system, it should be noted what they are talking against is not what karma really is, but some kind of wrong conception about it. Indeed it would come across as imperative, that the only cure for this is to try and develop a correct understanding about it instead of dismissing it. [/QUOTE]
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