☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Hard Talk
Is There A God?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Atheist" data-source="post: 128914" data-attributes="member: 10421"><p>Dear Bhagat Singh Ji and Tejwant Singh Ji and a.mother Ji,</p><p></p><p>Thank you for your replies!</p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">It was a bit odd to see you disappear and become mum all of a sudden</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">or were you on some penance journey of Atheism? j/k.</span></p><p></p><p>Haha no I was being punished by the Flying Spaghetti Monster this time</p><p>for eating pasta.</p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="color: Blue">I asked Seeker3k in post #'s 153 and 155 to be honest and read all 16</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">pages to prove what he claimed that I said and be honest about it. He</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">unfortunately disappeared and I ask you the same question as you agree</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">with Seeker3K to be honest about it. Take your time and do not</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">disappear as he did.</span></p><p></p><p>Yes I will be happy to go through what he claimed and will attempt to</p><p>go one by one through his points:</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Green">"People always do not want to explain their belief."</span></p><p></p><p>Basically he is saying that sometimes, people do not want to explain</p><p>their belief. I see this most often in christians. I talk of</p><p>evolution, and they talk of creationism. But they don't really</p><p>explain their belief, they just recite the bible and stop there. I</p><p>will grant of course that you are doing more than the various</p><p>christians I have talked to, as you are taking time to type up</p><p>responses to a non-believer (ie, me). But generally speaking it is</p><p>true that people sometimes (yes not always) do not want to explain their belief.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Green">"There are few million Sikhs in the world they all don’t believe same.</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">Every one has their personal belief."</span></p><p></p><p>The religious almanac suggests at least 20 million Sikhs worldwide</p><p>right? The number may be off a little, but regardless there really are</p><p>a few million Sikhs in the world. I agree they all don't believe the</p><p>same thing. For example, some believe very strongly that</p><p>vegetarianism is a Sikh law, whereas others say that it is optional.</p><p>From my understanding, most Sikh scholars agree that it is optional</p><p>(correct me if I'm wrong). I however will remain vegetarian because</p><p>for me it's not an issue of what the scriptures say, it's an issue of</p><p>doing the right thing. I simply cannot justify a more palatable meal</p><p>at the expense of an innocent pig or cow. But this is a completely</p><p>separate topic.</p><p></p><p>Every one has their personal belief, he claims. I think that's true.</p><p>Take any two people, even on this forum. No two people have identical</p><p>beliefs. Even two atheists will have different beliefs (their only</p><p>commonality is a dis-belief in a god). My parents may believe that</p><p>eating eggs is wrong, however our family friend who has also taken</p><p>amrit believes that eating eggs is ok. Neither the SGGS nor any other</p><p>scripture definitively talked about eating eggs (again correct me if</p><p>I'm wrong and I will look up the passage).</p><p><span style="color: Green"></span></p><p><span style="color: Green">"All religious people believe that God created man"</span></p><p></p><p>In medicine I like this saying: "Never say never or always, because</p><p>someone will always disprove you." So I avoid using the word "all" as</p><p>well. Now in this claim, it is suggested that if you are religious</p><p>you will believe that some entity was responsible for your creation</p><p>(ie, god created man). Even if you believe in evolution, the starting</p><p>point was still god, who made it possible for our creation (yes this</p><p>is sounding like a personal god, the god I was brought up with). Even</p><p>with a pantheistic god one can say that god created man, because if</p><p>god is the total sum of everything, and we came from that everything,</p><p>then we came from god and god created humans. Of course there may be</p><p>an exception lurking somewhere who is religious but thinks that god</p><p>did not create humans. I of course cannot talk for every religious</p><p>person.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Green">"Man get angry at other man if the other man make a mistake. So men</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">also believe God also get angry and punish man who made the mistake"</span></p><p></p><p>People get angry all the time, which is at least in part why the Gurus</p><p>said anger is one of the 5 vices. I have seen mistakes in the</p><p>hospital and people get mad. Humans believe god gets angry and</p><p>punishes them? Yes, read the old testament and this is certainly</p><p>true. God is a jealous and angry entity. I digress but here is a</p><p>quote from Professor Richard Dawkins:</p><p></p><p>"The god of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant</p><p>character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust,</p><p>unforgiving, control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty, ethnic</p><p>cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal,</p><p>filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously</p><p> malevolent bully."</p><p></p><p>So yes humans do believe that god gets angry. Perhaps not all humans</p><p>but certainly the majority as is seen with the old testament. Does</p><p>god punish man? According to the mormons, the native americans were</p><p>punished and their punishment was dark skin. So people do believe that</p><p>god punishes people.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Green">"Isn’t it true that man created God?"</span></p><p></p><p>Well obviously this is the whole point of this entire discussion. No</p><p>one on this planet can prove or disprove this claim, however the</p><p>evidence is highly on the side of humans creating god. See chapter 4</p><p>of The God Delusion by Professor Richard Dawkins for an exhaustive</p><p>review of this very question.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Green">"Religious people worship God so that they don’t have to go to hell or</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">be born again."</span></p><p></p><p>Christians worship god to avoid going to hell, as is evidenced by</p><p>numerous conversations I have had with christians (and mormons). What</p><p>about to avoid being born again? A Hindu philosopher came to talk to</p><p>us once and told us a story of a Hindu Brahmin (if my memory serves me</p><p>correctly) who asks god why he continues to be born again, given his</p><p>last couple lives were sin-less. So clearly that person wanted to</p><p>avoid being reborn. The salok at the end of japji sahib says "some</p><p>gets closer and some get further," suggesting that via reincarnation</p><p>you either get closer to "breaking the cycle" of transmigration or further.</p><p>Throughout my life I have constantly heard "breaking the cycle of</p><p>transmigration" which shows that people want to avoid being born</p><p>again. Who wouldn't? I'd rather have heaven than come down (or up</p><p>from China's viewpoint) again.</p><p><span style="color: Green"></span></p><p><span style="color: Green">"Is the life is so bad here on this earth that we don’t want to come back?"</span></p><p></p><p>Well if heaven is pure 100% bliss as is described by every religious</p><p>person I've talked to so far (who commented specifically on it), then</p><p>yes heaven is better than earth. According to mormons, when you die</p><p>(if you are mormon) you become a god and have your own planet. What's</p><p>a better deal than that?</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Green">"God is figment of imagination"</span></p><p></p><p>This again is the whole point of this conversation. I think god, just</p><p>like santa claus, is a figment of our imagination. Again, cannot be</p><p>proven either way.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Green">"In Japji Guru Nanak made it clear that God don’t have body, God can</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">not be seen God do not take birth. If God can’t be seen or heard nor</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">he speaks then chances are God is not real."</span></p><p></p><p>As far as I know god is formless, timeless, does not take birth, does</p><p>not die, etc. If something cannot be seen or heard and does not speak</p><p>it is difficult to conclude that it is not real. Gravity cannot be</p><p>seen, heard, and does not speak yet clearly exists. Same for energy.</p><p>I would revise seeker's statement because I don't think you can</p><p>conclude that god is not real BASED SOLELY on the fact that she/he/it</p><p>cannot be seen or heard from. I still of course agree that taking</p><p>everything into account that we know, god is not real.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Green">"If God don’t have body then it is understanding that he don’t have</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">heart, “man” Ho can God bless some one or punish some one"</span></p><p></p><p>I don't know what he is getting at here...</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Green">"Many religious people asking the atheists to prove that there is no</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">God. One can not prove if nothing is there. It is the believer who</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">have to prove that there is God."</span></p><p></p><p>100% correct. It is impossible to prove negatives. You can't prove</p><p>that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. But you would never</p><p>use that fact to believe that it DOES exist. Similarly I cannot prove</p><p>that god does not exist, but I would never use that fact to believe</p><p>that god DOES exist. <em>Quite simply the onus is always on the person</em></p><p><em>claiming that something exists, not the other way around.</em></p><p></p><p><span style="color: Green">"There was a time when God did every thing. He makes fire he made</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">rain, he made the air.</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">Now we know that is not what God does."</span></p><p></p><p>What he is saying is that when we knew even less than we do now, we</p><p>would always say "god did it," as in god made it rain when the crops</p><p>were dry, etc. Now we know what causes rain and we have learned a lot</p><p>more. Slowly but surely there are fewer and fewer things that we need</p><p>god to explain. Where do babies come from? It was just accepted that</p><p>babies come from god, now we know how women get pregnant.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Green">"Most people claim the ardas is heard by God. God has no body so no</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">ears. God can not hear the ardas. Lets say he can hear the ardas. When</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">we leave for the journey. We say the ardas that God protect us from</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">getting hurt. If it was meant to be that we are destin to die in the</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">accident then doing the ardas can God change what was already set by</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">him? Can judge who make the laws also can break the LAWS? So why do we</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">do the ardas? Are we trying to bribe the God by doing the ardas? Or</span></p><p><span style="color: Green">putting few penies in front of the Granth Sahib."</span></p><p></p><p>This is what a lot of atheists will agree to. My parents always told</p><p>me that god hears our ardas. But seeker makes a good point - if you</p><p>were destined to die in the accident then the ardas would not have</p><p>saved us. So if god decides that, why do ardas? This of course is a</p><p>separate issue that could take another forum to answer.</p><p></p><p>And lastly seeker is saying that atheists can be just as moral as</p><p>religious people. I am an atheist, and the head of the KKK is a</p><p>religious devout christian. I would hope I am more moral...</p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="color: Blue">We will talk about the rest of your post later because you have been</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">dishonest in this one too. I never claimed Sikhi to be a religion or a</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">belief as you have claimed in this post, rather to the contrary.</span></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well that's quite a claim to say that I am dishonest. If I spoke a</p><p>lie then I ask for your forgiveness. If Sikhi is NOT a religion and</p><p>NOT a belief, then what is it? Certainly if Sikhi teaches the</p><p>existence of god (whatever definition you want to use) and</p><p>reincarnation and karma that it is a belief right? I mean it could be</p><p>much more than just a belief, but it would still be a belief</p><p>nevertheless right?</p><p></p><p></p><p><span style="color: Blue">So , please take your time, read all the 16 pages of interaction</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">because honesty is not a belief or a non- belief. It is what Guru</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Nanak calls- truthful living.</span></p><p></p><p></p><p>"Truth is highest of all...higher still is truthful living."</p><p></p><p>-Guru Nanak</p><p></p><p></p><p>Onto BhagatSingh Ji:</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Atheist ji,</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">What kind of evidence would be sufficient for you? What would prove to</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">you that there is a God?</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">I asked this to myself but could not come up with an answer. I</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">understand there is no evidence for God and so next step is to figure</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">out what kind of evidence it would take to show that there is one (or</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">more).</span></p><p></p><p></p><p>The answer: The same kind of evidence that would be sufficient to</p><p>convince you that jesus is the son of god, and the same kind of</p><p>evidence that would be sufficient to convince you that there is a</p><p>flying spaghetti monster.</p><p></p><p>You are right, there is no evidence. The only kind of evidence that</p><p>is sufficient is empirical evidence which of course there is none for</p><p>god (why would god want to remain so mysterious? He could end the</p><p>controversy instantly by intervening right.......NOW...but he didn't). If there is no</p><p>evidence, then I have trouble devoting my life to something based</p><p>solely on faith.</p><p></p><p>Onto a.mother,</p><p></p><p>I enjoyed reading your response and can tell that you are devoting a good part of your day typing up thought-filled responses. I can tell your genuine concern for me and I can't say I don't appreciate it. However, you must not think that I am "confused." I am not confused, just curious as to why other people believe in god. You explained why you do, so you answered my question. But I am not confused, I just realize that god & religion are based on wishful thinking (the theology bit). The philosophical side of religion is different...but we don't have to know that jesus was born of a virgin to appreciate the golden rule.</p><p></p><p>Cheers,</p><p></p><p>Atheist </p><p></p><p><img src="/images/smilies/sikhsmileys/veryhappymunda1.jpg" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":veryhappymunda:" title="Veryhappymunda1 :veryhappymunda:" data-shortname=":veryhappymunda:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Atheist, post: 128914, member: 10421"] Dear Bhagat Singh Ji and Tejwant Singh Ji and a.mother Ji, Thank you for your replies! [COLOR=Blue] It was a bit odd to see you disappear and become mum all of a sudden or were you on some penance journey of Atheism? j/k.[/COLOR] Haha no I was being punished by the Flying Spaghetti Monster this time for eating pasta. [COLOR=Blue]I asked Seeker3k in post #'s 153 and 155 to be honest and read all 16 pages to prove what he claimed that I said and be honest about it. He unfortunately disappeared and I ask you the same question as you agree with Seeker3K to be honest about it. Take your time and do not disappear as he did.[/COLOR] Yes I will be happy to go through what he claimed and will attempt to go one by one through his points: [COLOR=Green]"People always do not want to explain their belief."[/COLOR] Basically he is saying that sometimes, people do not want to explain their belief. I see this most often in christians. I talk of evolution, and they talk of creationism. But they don't really explain their belief, they just recite the bible and stop there. I will grant of course that you are doing more than the various christians I have talked to, as you are taking time to type up responses to a non-believer (ie, me). But generally speaking it is true that people sometimes (yes not always) do not want to explain their belief. [COLOR=Green]"There are few million Sikhs in the world they all don’t believe same. Every one has their personal belief."[/COLOR] The religious almanac suggests at least 20 million Sikhs worldwide right? The number may be off a little, but regardless there really are a few million Sikhs in the world. I agree they all don't believe the same thing. For example, some believe very strongly that vegetarianism is a Sikh law, whereas others say that it is optional. From my understanding, most Sikh scholars agree that it is optional (correct me if I'm wrong). I however will remain vegetarian because for me it's not an issue of what the scriptures say, it's an issue of doing the right thing. I simply cannot justify a more palatable meal at the expense of an innocent pig or cow. But this is a completely separate topic. Every one has their personal belief, he claims. I think that's true. Take any two people, even on this forum. No two people have identical beliefs. Even two atheists will have different beliefs (their only commonality is a dis-belief in a god). My parents may believe that eating eggs is wrong, however our family friend who has also taken amrit believes that eating eggs is ok. Neither the SGGS nor any other scripture definitively talked about eating eggs (again correct me if I'm wrong and I will look up the passage). [COLOR=Green] "All religious people believe that God created man"[/COLOR] In medicine I like this saying: "Never say never or always, because someone will always disprove you." So I avoid using the word "all" as well. Now in this claim, it is suggested that if you are religious you will believe that some entity was responsible for your creation (ie, god created man). Even if you believe in evolution, the starting point was still god, who made it possible for our creation (yes this is sounding like a personal god, the god I was brought up with). Even with a pantheistic god one can say that god created man, because if god is the total sum of everything, and we came from that everything, then we came from god and god created humans. Of course there may be an exception lurking somewhere who is religious but thinks that god did not create humans. I of course cannot talk for every religious person. [COLOR=Green]"Man get angry at other man if the other man make a mistake. So men also believe God also get angry and punish man who made the mistake"[/COLOR] People get angry all the time, which is at least in part why the Gurus said anger is one of the 5 vices. I have seen mistakes in the hospital and people get mad. Humans believe god gets angry and punishes them? Yes, read the old testament and this is certainly true. God is a jealous and angry entity. I digress but here is a quote from Professor Richard Dawkins: "The god of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, unforgiving, control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty, ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." So yes humans do believe that god gets angry. Perhaps not all humans but certainly the majority as is seen with the old testament. Does god punish man? According to the mormons, the native americans were punished and their punishment was dark skin. So people do believe that god punishes people. [COLOR=Green]"Isn’t it true that man created God?"[/COLOR] Well obviously this is the whole point of this entire discussion. No one on this planet can prove or disprove this claim, however the evidence is highly on the side of humans creating god. See chapter 4 of The God Delusion by Professor Richard Dawkins for an exhaustive review of this very question. [COLOR=Green]"Religious people worship God so that they don’t have to go to hell or be born again."[/COLOR] Christians worship god to avoid going to hell, as is evidenced by numerous conversations I have had with christians (and mormons). What about to avoid being born again? A Hindu philosopher came to talk to us once and told us a story of a Hindu Brahmin (if my memory serves me correctly) who asks god why he continues to be born again, given his last couple lives were sin-less. So clearly that person wanted to avoid being reborn. The salok at the end of japji sahib says "some gets closer and some get further," suggesting that via reincarnation you either get closer to "breaking the cycle" of transmigration or further. Throughout my life I have constantly heard "breaking the cycle of transmigration" which shows that people want to avoid being born again. Who wouldn't? I'd rather have heaven than come down (or up from China's viewpoint) again. [COLOR=Green] "Is the life is so bad here on this earth that we don’t want to come back?"[/COLOR] Well if heaven is pure 100% bliss as is described by every religious person I've talked to so far (who commented specifically on it), then yes heaven is better than earth. According to mormons, when you die (if you are mormon) you become a god and have your own planet. What's a better deal than that? [COLOR=Green]"God is figment of imagination"[/COLOR] This again is the whole point of this conversation. I think god, just like santa claus, is a figment of our imagination. Again, cannot be proven either way. [COLOR=Green]"In Japji Guru Nanak made it clear that God don’t have body, God can not be seen God do not take birth. If God can’t be seen or heard nor he speaks then chances are God is not real."[/COLOR] As far as I know god is formless, timeless, does not take birth, does not die, etc. If something cannot be seen or heard and does not speak it is difficult to conclude that it is not real. Gravity cannot be seen, heard, and does not speak yet clearly exists. Same for energy. I would revise seeker's statement because I don't think you can conclude that god is not real BASED SOLELY on the fact that she/he/it cannot be seen or heard from. I still of course agree that taking everything into account that we know, god is not real. [COLOR=Green]"If God don’t have body then it is understanding that he don’t have heart, “man” Ho can God bless some one or punish some one"[/COLOR] I don't know what he is getting at here... [COLOR=Green]"Many religious people asking the atheists to prove that there is no God. One can not prove if nothing is there. It is the believer who have to prove that there is God."[/COLOR] 100% correct. It is impossible to prove negatives. You can't prove that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. But you would never use that fact to believe that it DOES exist. Similarly I cannot prove that god does not exist, but I would never use that fact to believe that god DOES exist. [I]Quite simply the onus is always on the person claiming that something exists, not the other way around.[/I] [COLOR=Green]"There was a time when God did every thing. He makes fire he made rain, he made the air. Now we know that is not what God does."[/COLOR] What he is saying is that when we knew even less than we do now, we would always say "god did it," as in god made it rain when the crops were dry, etc. Now we know what causes rain and we have learned a lot more. Slowly but surely there are fewer and fewer things that we need god to explain. Where do babies come from? It was just accepted that babies come from god, now we know how women get pregnant. [COLOR=Green]"Most people claim the ardas is heard by God. God has no body so no ears. God can not hear the ardas. Lets say he can hear the ardas. When we leave for the journey. We say the ardas that God protect us from getting hurt. If it was meant to be that we are destin to die in the accident then doing the ardas can God change what was already set by him? Can judge who make the laws also can break the LAWS? So why do we do the ardas? Are we trying to bribe the God by doing the ardas? Or putting few penies in front of the Granth Sahib."[/COLOR] This is what a lot of atheists will agree to. My parents always told me that god hears our ardas. But seeker makes a good point - if you were destined to die in the accident then the ardas would not have saved us. So if god decides that, why do ardas? This of course is a separate issue that could take another forum to answer. And lastly seeker is saying that atheists can be just as moral as religious people. I am an atheist, and the head of the KKK is a religious devout christian. I would hope I am more moral... [COLOR=Blue]We will talk about the rest of your post later because you have been dishonest in this one too. I never claimed Sikhi to be a religion or a belief as you have claimed in this post, rather to the contrary.[/COLOR] Well that's quite a claim to say that I am dishonest. If I spoke a lie then I ask for your forgiveness. If Sikhi is NOT a religion and NOT a belief, then what is it? Certainly if Sikhi teaches the existence of god (whatever definition you want to use) and reincarnation and karma that it is a belief right? I mean it could be much more than just a belief, but it would still be a belief nevertheless right? [COLOR=Blue]So , please take your time, read all the 16 pages of interaction because honesty is not a belief or a non- belief. It is what Guru Nanak calls- truthful living.[/COLOR] "Truth is highest of all...higher still is truthful living." -Guru Nanak Onto BhagatSingh Ji: [COLOR=Blue]Atheist ji, What kind of evidence would be sufficient for you? What would prove to you that there is a God? I asked this to myself but could not come up with an answer. I understand there is no evidence for God and so next step is to figure out what kind of evidence it would take to show that there is one (or more).[/COLOR] The answer: The same kind of evidence that would be sufficient to convince you that jesus is the son of god, and the same kind of evidence that would be sufficient to convince you that there is a flying spaghetti monster. You are right, there is no evidence. The only kind of evidence that is sufficient is empirical evidence which of course there is none for god (why would god want to remain so mysterious? He could end the controversy instantly by intervening right.......NOW...but he didn't). If there is no evidence, then I have trouble devoting my life to something based solely on faith. Onto a.mother, I enjoyed reading your response and can tell that you are devoting a good part of your day typing up thought-filled responses. I can tell your genuine concern for me and I can't say I don't appreciate it. However, you must not think that I am "confused." I am not confused, just curious as to why other people believe in god. You explained why you do, so you answered my question. But I am not confused, I just realize that god & religion are based on wishful thinking (the theology bit). The philosophical side of religion is different...but we don't have to know that jesus was born of a virgin to appreciate the golden rule. Cheers, Atheist :veryhappymunda: [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Hard Talk
Is There A God?
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top