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ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 123872" data-attributes="member: 586"><p>Curious ji,</p><p></p><p>Before I proceed, I just want to make clear my comment regarding understanding.</p><p>When I stated that one either understands or not, this was originally made with reference to the fact of ‘seeking truth’. What I was at the time pointing out was the error of the attitude, namely that one can’t arrive at the truth by ‘seeking’ it or projecting that it is something one will come to realize down the road. Therefore the statement, ‘either there is understanding or there isn’t’ meant as a judgment.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You said:</p><p><<No I do not normally read every post on a thread, I have skimmed over, I confess, some of your exchanges with Atheist Ji. However its not that earthshakingly important for me to have you repeat them. >></p><p></p><p></p><p>But for me it is important that you do come to know the basics with regard to my understanding of Karma. Since as far as I am concerned, that which is held by most people is at best vague, often mixing cause and effect and those of others are in fact quite mistaken. So please if you can find the time, do read those responses before you go any further with this one. ;-) </p><p></p><p>You said:</p><p><<Basically I agree with Re'incarnation because I believe in the spiritual evolution of man and in he justice and fairness of God.>></p><p></p><p></p><p>Firstly, I’ll need to know what you mean by reincarnation. The way that this is normally used, is not how I see the matter. What I refer to is ‘rebirth’, and this is quite different from reincarnation. The latter is connected to the idea of a ‘soul’ which is something that is more or less permanent and can’t exist according to my understanding of way things are, including that of karma itself. Rebirth on the other hand refers to a particular kind of consciousness which arises and falls away instantly after performing the particular function at conception. It is the result of volitional consciousness / karma (cause), the one which arose just before the dying consciousness of the previous life and which beside being the cause for rebirth, is also cause for what is called life-continuum (a kind of consciousness) and the death consciousness of the new life. (There are also the related material realities which I don’t think I need to go into here.)</p><p></p><p>What this last volitional consciousness will be, this can’t ever be predicted. Indeed it is just like *now*, what kind of consciousness has arisen and already fallen away, is not within anyone’s will to determine. But due to some past conditions most notably, ‘accumulated tendencies’, upon the experience through any of the sense doors (which is resultant and not cause, and again not within control), attachment or aversion and / or ignorance on one hand or their opposites on the other, will condition the following consciousness. This latter depending on the strength, can then act as cause or karma for some resultant in the future. </p><p></p><p>So I don’t subscribe to such beliefs as ‘spiritual evolution’, in fact if anything, I find evidence everywhere pointing to the opposite direction. Such as that between 2500 years ago and now, the number of enlightened people for example, from what was at one time, numbering in thousands now appears to approach zero. The distorted and *******ed sense of morality existing today, something which does not even require very deep understanding, is another reflection of where we are actually moving toward. Moreover the beliefs, more particularly interpretations of ancient texts are quite wild now. Look at the various sects of the different religions!! </p><p></p><p>But then again, I don’t wish to encourage this kind of thinking. First, it is quite useless to think in terms of others’ level of understanding and this actually comes from seeing the uselessness of thinking along the same lines with regard to our own. Second, such thoughts as human race and so on is reflection of wrong focus and in a way encourages division into groups, particularly separating humans from animals. Third, and this is how I understand the situation to be, is that we are all caught up in what is called the cycle of birth and death which is repeated over and over precisely because we have yet to see the way out. </p><p></p><p>You can compare this latter to someone lost in an almost endlessly large and thick forest with no sense of direction and no help from any kind of instrument. It won’t be such that just because he keeps trying to get out, that he will one day manage to do so. The fact is that he will die and before he knows it, be reborn with ignorance which has been accumulated even more, and so again continues to struggle in the same way, repeating the same pattern. If however he has done some good and has any tendency to understand, he may meet some wise man who shows him the way and begin then to walk in the right direction. But even then, it takes aeons over aeons (according to my estimation ;-)) to finally come out of all that. </p><p></p><p>You said:</p><p><<But I do not , at present. consider it a dogma unless I am other wise convinced. If I could be convinced it would certainly round out my beliefs more. So please tell me why are you so sure about re-incarnation .>></p><p></p><p></p><p>Firstly, the kind of answers sought may need to be examined to see whether it is valid. </p><p></p><p>What most people seek is ‘evidence’. But this as you may know can at best only cause one to begin questioning one’s own preconceptions, but not necessarily to investigate so as to understand. When for example someone seeks evidence for past lives by such things as testimony or even one’s own recollection, is this what is required in order that doubt is lessened? I don’t think so. The kind of evidence when got depends on memory, which then acts as the basis for a new idea set against other ideas and weighed. Any explanations, even seemingly logical ones, and depending on any attachment and ignorance based on the experience of the moment, serves simple to justify holding to the particular idea / belief.</p><p></p><p>What in fact is required is the study of the mind, and this won’t happen while we continue with our old attitudes seeking evidence which don’t really help. It requires a good deal of wisdom to see the need to investigate the mind when we first hear about such things as karma and rebirth. But of course this is not to be expected, since it is more natural for us to be caught up in concepts about this and that and to seek explanations so as to then rest satisfied. Moreover, karma as is presented to us normally is such that we either believe in it or we don’t. </p><p></p><p>True for those who do believe, this may in fact be tied with the kind of faith related to seeing advantage in good and harm in evil. And when it comes to those who are truly inclined to live a moral life, this is better than in the case of those whose life is not based on the kind of belief. But this being still dependent on ‘belief’, goes only so far. </p><p></p><p>On the other hand if wisdom came in to study the variegated nature of mind, it will begin to appreciate the differences between states that are cause and those that are result. So although in the beginning some degree of ‘belief’ and faith in morality is involved, gradually this becomes a matter more of knowing and seeing. And while the one does nothing to reduce doubt the other works to build faith of a kind which is confidence and which leads to the lessening of doubt. </p><p></p><p>So do I feel certain about rebirth? No. </p><p>However, I see less and less reason to doubt, having to some extent come to appreciate what it would be like at the end of life by way of studying my life as it is now. Indeed this would include having also some understanding of belief as belief and doubt as doubt. </p><p></p><p>I’ll have to stop here Curious ji, as it is time for me to get ready and go somewhere, and I want to post this now and not later. Although I’ve not said all that I had in mind, I’ll wait for you to respond and see how I should respond.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 123872, member: 586"] Curious ji, Before I proceed, I just want to make clear my comment regarding understanding. When I stated that one either understands or not, this was originally made with reference to the fact of ‘seeking truth’. What I was at the time pointing out was the error of the attitude, namely that one can’t arrive at the truth by ‘seeking’ it or projecting that it is something one will come to realize down the road. Therefore the statement, ‘either there is understanding or there isn’t’ meant as a judgment. You said: <<No I do not normally read every post on a thread, I have skimmed over, I confess, some of your exchanges with Atheist Ji. However its not that earthshakingly important for me to have you repeat them. >> But for me it is important that you do come to know the basics with regard to my understanding of Karma. Since as far as I am concerned, that which is held by most people is at best vague, often mixing cause and effect and those of others are in fact quite mistaken. So please if you can find the time, do read those responses before you go any further with this one. ;-) You said: <<Basically I agree with Re'incarnation because I believe in the spiritual evolution of man and in he justice and fairness of God.>> Firstly, I’ll need to know what you mean by reincarnation. The way that this is normally used, is not how I see the matter. What I refer to is ‘rebirth’, and this is quite different from reincarnation. The latter is connected to the idea of a ‘soul’ which is something that is more or less permanent and can’t exist according to my understanding of way things are, including that of karma itself. Rebirth on the other hand refers to a particular kind of consciousness which arises and falls away instantly after performing the particular function at conception. It is the result of volitional consciousness / karma (cause), the one which arose just before the dying consciousness of the previous life and which beside being the cause for rebirth, is also cause for what is called life-continuum (a kind of consciousness) and the death consciousness of the new life. (There are also the related material realities which I don’t think I need to go into here.) What this last volitional consciousness will be, this can’t ever be predicted. Indeed it is just like *now*, what kind of consciousness has arisen and already fallen away, is not within anyone’s will to determine. But due to some past conditions most notably, ‘accumulated tendencies’, upon the experience through any of the sense doors (which is resultant and not cause, and again not within control), attachment or aversion and / or ignorance on one hand or their opposites on the other, will condition the following consciousness. This latter depending on the strength, can then act as cause or karma for some resultant in the future. So I don’t subscribe to such beliefs as ‘spiritual evolution’, in fact if anything, I find evidence everywhere pointing to the opposite direction. Such as that between 2500 years ago and now, the number of enlightened people for example, from what was at one time, numbering in thousands now appears to approach zero. The distorted and *******ed sense of morality existing today, something which does not even require very deep understanding, is another reflection of where we are actually moving toward. Moreover the beliefs, more particularly interpretations of ancient texts are quite wild now. Look at the various sects of the different religions!! But then again, I don’t wish to encourage this kind of thinking. First, it is quite useless to think in terms of others’ level of understanding and this actually comes from seeing the uselessness of thinking along the same lines with regard to our own. Second, such thoughts as human race and so on is reflection of wrong focus and in a way encourages division into groups, particularly separating humans from animals. Third, and this is how I understand the situation to be, is that we are all caught up in what is called the cycle of birth and death which is repeated over and over precisely because we have yet to see the way out. You can compare this latter to someone lost in an almost endlessly large and thick forest with no sense of direction and no help from any kind of instrument. It won’t be such that just because he keeps trying to get out, that he will one day manage to do so. The fact is that he will die and before he knows it, be reborn with ignorance which has been accumulated even more, and so again continues to struggle in the same way, repeating the same pattern. If however he has done some good and has any tendency to understand, he may meet some wise man who shows him the way and begin then to walk in the right direction. But even then, it takes aeons over aeons (according to my estimation ;-)) to finally come out of all that. You said: <<But I do not , at present. consider it a dogma unless I am other wise convinced. If I could be convinced it would certainly round out my beliefs more. So please tell me why are you so sure about re-incarnation .>> Firstly, the kind of answers sought may need to be examined to see whether it is valid. What most people seek is ‘evidence’. But this as you may know can at best only cause one to begin questioning one’s own preconceptions, but not necessarily to investigate so as to understand. When for example someone seeks evidence for past lives by such things as testimony or even one’s own recollection, is this what is required in order that doubt is lessened? I don’t think so. The kind of evidence when got depends on memory, which then acts as the basis for a new idea set against other ideas and weighed. Any explanations, even seemingly logical ones, and depending on any attachment and ignorance based on the experience of the moment, serves simple to justify holding to the particular idea / belief. What in fact is required is the study of the mind, and this won’t happen while we continue with our old attitudes seeking evidence which don’t really help. It requires a good deal of wisdom to see the need to investigate the mind when we first hear about such things as karma and rebirth. But of course this is not to be expected, since it is more natural for us to be caught up in concepts about this and that and to seek explanations so as to then rest satisfied. Moreover, karma as is presented to us normally is such that we either believe in it or we don’t. True for those who do believe, this may in fact be tied with the kind of faith related to seeing advantage in good and harm in evil. And when it comes to those who are truly inclined to live a moral life, this is better than in the case of those whose life is not based on the kind of belief. But this being still dependent on ‘belief’, goes only so far. On the other hand if wisdom came in to study the variegated nature of mind, it will begin to appreciate the differences between states that are cause and those that are result. So although in the beginning some degree of ‘belief’ and faith in morality is involved, gradually this becomes a matter more of knowing and seeing. And while the one does nothing to reduce doubt the other works to build faith of a kind which is confidence and which leads to the lessening of doubt. So do I feel certain about rebirth? No. However, I see less and less reason to doubt, having to some extent come to appreciate what it would be like at the end of life by way of studying my life as it is now. Indeed this would include having also some understanding of belief as belief and doubt as doubt. I’ll have to stop here Curious ji, as it is time for me to get ready and go somewhere, and I want to post this now and not later. Although I’ve not said all that I had in mind, I’ll wait for you to respond and see how I should respond. [/QUOTE]
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