☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Hard Talk
Is There A God?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="curious seeker" data-source="post: 123815" data-attributes="member: 11092"><p>Bhagat Singh Ji</p><p></p><p> Are you serious!! Come on! Only people in insane asylums and little kids that have not reached the age of reason, believe in the FSM, the PU and the CM and all other inventions of atheistic minds. The only reason to come up with these, to quote Zarathushtra, ''Products of senseless thinking'' is to: A) Try to find an abstract entity to equate to God AND:</p><p>B) Try to get some one's goat</p><p></p><p>Actually this is kind of pathetic. Atheists can't find anything to compare to God within reason, so they go outside of reason and make up outrageous entities. What do these contribute to the dialog? Zero! Why introduce them? These are both intellectually bankrupt and to that extent so are the atheists that use them, in the sense they cannot come up with a credible alternative and they want to try and ridicule the opposition. Its really a timeless tactic, you can't answer your opponent? Demonize him, or better, ridicule him. Its a tactic of the ones that have no argument, not of the supposedly intellectually superior and enlightened. It really makes a mockery of the atheist position, yet they can't see that they are undercutting their own credibility. I truly wish they would not debase their argument.</p><p></p><p> As to being rewarded by numbers. Just to show how preposterous this is, I will give myself as an example I was an atheist. I became a believer not because they are more believers, but because I was totally convinced by the experience with Deity. I did not stop seeking truth nor rejecting what could not past the validity test, because one thing is to believe in God and another to believe in what men say about God. In fact precisely because of the, frankly, nonsense of much of Abrahamic theology I became associated with distinctively minority religions like Zoroastrianism and Sikhism. If I were to be seeking validation in numbers I would have remained a Xian or become a Muslim.</p><p></p><p> The point of numbers I made referred to the evidence of the existence of God . In that sense numbers matter, in fact its totally acceptable to deny the validity of claims for a theory based on the fact that the opposite postulate is overwhelmingly self evident, thus making the possibility of the validity of the opposing theory, infinitesimally small. Thus the theory of the equivalency between the FSM and his ilk and God fails on the grounds of the infinitesimal evidentiary support for it, versus, the overwhelming support, in the the form of experiential evidence, for God.</p><p></p><p> Atheists, in fact, have to reject experiential evidence out right or their atheism cannot stand. But that is not even the question. In fact, the whole argument with the FSM, etc. is spurious because the fact that no one, who is sane, has ever had a life changing experience with these constructs of atheistic sophism, and they never will, because they are fake and the experience with God is overwhelmingly and undeniably real.</p><p></p><p> As to past experiences and other Gods. First you cannot even equate these names of God to the FSM, etc. These being simply other names of the same God, would indeed generate some sort of experiences to the extent that the believer would meditate and contemplate on the true natuure and name of God. For atheists totally misunderstand this point, not surprisingly since as atheists they cannot help but not be, naturally, open to deity. The names men use for God have no necessary relationship with the real essence of God. That ought to be obvious to those familiar with Sikhism, the Gurus and the SGGS. Second the fact that people, who have acquired more knowledge, now realize that ancients represented God in ways that were limited by their own understanding does not reflect on God, but in the extent of human ignorance. God is a knower by nature, He knows. This is precisely the opposite of human condition, man needs knowledge, he is ignorant.</p><p></p><p> When man, in his ignorance, fails to describe God accurately , how is that reflecting on the reality of God? When the ancients described the the Earth as the center of the universe, flat, etc, did that mistaken description changed the truth of what the Earth and/or the Universe or the Sun were and are? NO</p><p></p><p> Nanak looked at all the different religions of his day and said: 'There is no Hindu there is no Muslim.' He and all the Gurus repeatedly accepted that God could not be grasped and understood fully by the human mind. But they also equally asserted that He could be experienced as a very real father, a mother, a relative, a friend. That He has always been and will forever remain true, that is, real. And that the experiences that corroborates Him are found through meditation , contemplation and study on, and of, His name and nature. Furthermore, that the Truth thus acquired would manifest in selfless service to humanity and the changed lives of the believers.</p><p></p><p> All these things are patently true and can be experienced, and, have in fact been recorded in history. Thus the question is clear. The Theist who meditates on God and centers his life on Him will acquire the experiential knowledge of God and has proven to himself that God is real. Any one who can accept even the possibility of God and of His accessibility through experience and, puts aside his ego and surrenders his will as an act of trust, in sincerity, honesty and humility, can experience God and KNOW that He IS. In fact, such a person has put away the illusions and delusions of his or her ignorance and awaken to reality. He or she is now in the light.</p><p></p><p> So your arguments on Gods and their number to try to equate them to the One is a total misunderstanding of, both, the human and the divine condition. There are no numbers of God, there is but ONE perceived in a number of different ways by ignorant mankind. Mankind cannot loose its ignorance of God until they experience Him, and they cannot experience Him until they are willing to accept that He IS, willingly put their free will under the authority of God's order and meditate and ponder on His Name and nature.</p><p></p><p> Just as men need to acquire knowledge of the physical world, (and by the way, this also knowledge of the God that is in the physical) they need to acquire knowledge of God. We acquire knowledge of the physical through physical methods and we acquire knowledge of the spiritual through spiritual methods.</p><p></p><p> Spiritual experience is the ONLY way to knowledge of the spiritual. Just as you cannot gain knowledge of physics without studying physics, with the help of your God Given mind, you cannot gain knowledge of God without having through your meditation (with your mind, the same one whose analytical functions you use to gain knowledge of the physical) experience God. Mistakenly arguing that because man names the One God with different names there are many sources of this spiritual experiences its an argument that has no validity, because its first and central assumption is False. There is One God, not many, and the many names and ideas ascribed to God by different men are just misconceptions born of their natural lack of understanding, and their attachment to the illusions of the physical way.</p><p></p><p> Just because some refuse to give up their self centeredness for God centeredness, and they remain cut away and separated from the Divine, can we then deny the experiences of untold billions throughout human history? No!! In any case the challenge to the humans will forever stand. In the end there are no atheists, nor believers, no men, nor women. We are not a race, or a class, or a nationality, we are all one thing: Human! And this is the challenge: Cast out your preconceptions, surrender your will in trust, with sincere honesty, and come to the One and you will Know that He IS through the experience of His nature. Is up to each of us to decide. Those who take the challenge without lying to themselves will never regret it.</p><p></p><p>Be Blessed</p><p> Curious</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="curious seeker, post: 123815, member: 11092"] Bhagat Singh Ji Are you serious!! Come on! Only people in insane asylums and little kids that have not reached the age of reason, believe in the FSM, the PU and the CM and all other inventions of atheistic minds. The only reason to come up with these, to quote Zarathushtra, ''Products of senseless thinking'' is to: A) Try to find an abstract entity to equate to God AND: B) Try to get some one's goat Actually this is kind of pathetic. Atheists can't find anything to compare to God within reason, so they go outside of reason and make up outrageous entities. What do these contribute to the dialog? Zero! Why introduce them? These are both intellectually bankrupt and to that extent so are the atheists that use them, in the sense they cannot come up with a credible alternative and they want to try and ridicule the opposition. Its really a timeless tactic, you can't answer your opponent? Demonize him, or better, ridicule him. Its a tactic of the ones that have no argument, not of the supposedly intellectually superior and enlightened. It really makes a mockery of the atheist position, yet they can't see that they are undercutting their own credibility. I truly wish they would not debase their argument. As to being rewarded by numbers. Just to show how preposterous this is, I will give myself as an example I was an atheist. I became a believer not because they are more believers, but because I was totally convinced by the experience with Deity. I did not stop seeking truth nor rejecting what could not past the validity test, because one thing is to believe in God and another to believe in what men say about God. In fact precisely because of the, frankly, nonsense of much of Abrahamic theology I became associated with distinctively minority religions like Zoroastrianism and Sikhism. If I were to be seeking validation in numbers I would have remained a Xian or become a Muslim. The point of numbers I made referred to the evidence of the existence of God . In that sense numbers matter, in fact its totally acceptable to deny the validity of claims for a theory based on the fact that the opposite postulate is overwhelmingly self evident, thus making the possibility of the validity of the opposing theory, infinitesimally small. Thus the theory of the equivalency between the FSM and his ilk and God fails on the grounds of the infinitesimal evidentiary support for it, versus, the overwhelming support, in the the form of experiential evidence, for God. Atheists, in fact, have to reject experiential evidence out right or their atheism cannot stand. But that is not even the question. In fact, the whole argument with the FSM, etc. is spurious because the fact that no one, who is sane, has ever had a life changing experience with these constructs of atheistic sophism, and they never will, because they are fake and the experience with God is overwhelmingly and undeniably real. As to past experiences and other Gods. First you cannot even equate these names of God to the FSM, etc. These being simply other names of the same God, would indeed generate some sort of experiences to the extent that the believer would meditate and contemplate on the true natuure and name of God. For atheists totally misunderstand this point, not surprisingly since as atheists they cannot help but not be, naturally, open to deity. The names men use for God have no necessary relationship with the real essence of God. That ought to be obvious to those familiar with Sikhism, the Gurus and the SGGS. Second the fact that people, who have acquired more knowledge, now realize that ancients represented God in ways that were limited by their own understanding does not reflect on God, but in the extent of human ignorance. God is a knower by nature, He knows. This is precisely the opposite of human condition, man needs knowledge, he is ignorant. When man, in his ignorance, fails to describe God accurately , how is that reflecting on the reality of God? When the ancients described the the Earth as the center of the universe, flat, etc, did that mistaken description changed the truth of what the Earth and/or the Universe or the Sun were and are? NO Nanak looked at all the different religions of his day and said: 'There is no Hindu there is no Muslim.' He and all the Gurus repeatedly accepted that God could not be grasped and understood fully by the human mind. But they also equally asserted that He could be experienced as a very real father, a mother, a relative, a friend. That He has always been and will forever remain true, that is, real. And that the experiences that corroborates Him are found through meditation , contemplation and study on, and of, His name and nature. Furthermore, that the Truth thus acquired would manifest in selfless service to humanity and the changed lives of the believers. All these things are patently true and can be experienced, and, have in fact been recorded in history. Thus the question is clear. The Theist who meditates on God and centers his life on Him will acquire the experiential knowledge of God and has proven to himself that God is real. Any one who can accept even the possibility of God and of His accessibility through experience and, puts aside his ego and surrenders his will as an act of trust, in sincerity, honesty and humility, can experience God and KNOW that He IS. In fact, such a person has put away the illusions and delusions of his or her ignorance and awaken to reality. He or she is now in the light. So your arguments on Gods and their number to try to equate them to the One is a total misunderstanding of, both, the human and the divine condition. There are no numbers of God, there is but ONE perceived in a number of different ways by ignorant mankind. Mankind cannot loose its ignorance of God until they experience Him, and they cannot experience Him until they are willing to accept that He IS, willingly put their free will under the authority of God's order and meditate and ponder on His Name and nature. Just as men need to acquire knowledge of the physical world, (and by the way, this also knowledge of the God that is in the physical) they need to acquire knowledge of God. We acquire knowledge of the physical through physical methods and we acquire knowledge of the spiritual through spiritual methods. Spiritual experience is the ONLY way to knowledge of the spiritual. Just as you cannot gain knowledge of physics without studying physics, with the help of your God Given mind, you cannot gain knowledge of God without having through your meditation (with your mind, the same one whose analytical functions you use to gain knowledge of the physical) experience God. Mistakenly arguing that because man names the One God with different names there are many sources of this spiritual experiences its an argument that has no validity, because its first and central assumption is False. There is One God, not many, and the many names and ideas ascribed to God by different men are just misconceptions born of their natural lack of understanding, and their attachment to the illusions of the physical way. Just because some refuse to give up their self centeredness for God centeredness, and they remain cut away and separated from the Divine, can we then deny the experiences of untold billions throughout human history? No!! In any case the challenge to the humans will forever stand. In the end there are no atheists, nor believers, no men, nor women. We are not a race, or a class, or a nationality, we are all one thing: Human! And this is the challenge: Cast out your preconceptions, surrender your will in trust, with sincere honesty, and come to the One and you will Know that He IS through the experience of His nature. Is up to each of us to decide. Those who take the challenge without lying to themselves will never regret it. Be Blessed Curious [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Hard Talk
Is There A God?
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top