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ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
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Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
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Gurbani (660-685)
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Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
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Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
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Suchajee (762)
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Vaar Soohee (785-792)
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Gurbani (795-831)
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Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
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Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
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Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Is There A God?
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<blockquote data-quote="Atheist" data-source="post: 123503" data-attributes="member: 10421"><p>Dear Curious Ji,</p><p> </p><p>Finally I've got some time to respond to your intriguing post. </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: blue">Atheism means without God, it does not mean you KNOW that we are without God. You cannot KNOW we are without God</span></p><p> </p><p>You are absolutely correct. We cannot KNOW that something does not exist, and god falls into this category. It would be unscientific to simply say that we are 100% positive there is no god. At the same time, however, we cannot KNOW that the pink unicorn does not exist, right? We cannot prove negatives like that. We can prove positives (I can prove that some apples are green), disprove positives (I can disprove the claim that all apples are red), disprove negatives (I can disprove the claim that green apples don't exist), but when it comes to proving negatives, things get much more tricky. Proving that god does not exist is impossible. But, proving that the unicorn does not exist is equally impossible.</p><p> </p><p>So, technically ALL OF US are AGNOSTIC in terms of the unicorn right? Because we cannot disprove the unicorn's existence. But in practice, we are all a-unicornists. You don't waste time or energy trying to disprove the existence of the unicorn even though there is an extremely small chance it exists. So, in practice, you are an a-unicornist. Similarly I am technically agnostic with respect to god, but for me the likelihood of god existing is equal to the likelihood of the unicorn existing - very low and close to but not equal to 0. So in practice I am an a-unicornist and an atheist to the same extent.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">Thus being without physical proof we humans all, atheist, agnostics and theists, must function by evidentiary systems of -proof- but these are not absolute , and we end up with possibilities , probabilities , opinions and, whether you like it or not, beliefs. So in the end yours is a belief system, You believe that there is nothing outside the physical and thus no God , or a lot other things, but the point is that when you say you do not belief, that atheism is not a belief, you mean that you do not believe in God, but you do belie in materialsm so yoiurs is a belief system.</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p>Right - it would be a belief if I told you "There is 100% no chance that god exists" - where is my proof of that claim? I have none. Now I can't regurgitate the entire chapter, but Richard Dawkins, in his book in chapter 4, explains "why there almost certainly is no god." Again, not 100% proof, but again we can't disprove the cookie monster either. Suppose N% is the percentage chance that I will give the cookie monster of existing (very very VERY low but not 0%). The likelihood of god existing is also N%.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: blue">I cannot prove God physically, you cannot disprove Her/Him physically.</span> </p><p> </p><p>Agreed.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: blue">to say you do not need to prove what you do not believe in does not deny the fact that your opinion , i.e. that God does not exist, cannot be proven. </span></p><p> </p><p>Lots of negatives in that one, let me see if I get it right. You are saying that: if I claim I do not need to prove the thing I don't believe in, it still means that my opinion can be proven. Is that what you're saying? But it cannot be proven, as above, we cannot prove that something doesn't exist, and that includes the cookie monster, unicorns, and tooth fairies. </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: blue">You must hold opinions that to you make the possibility of a creator implausible.</span> </p><p> </p><p>Not implausible, but highly unlikely. Again, just as unlikely as the cookie monster or leprechauns.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: blue">But you see the Theists , at least some theists, have proof of the existence of a Creator that, to them, leaves no doubt and that proof is a personal and earth shaking experience with the Creator.</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p>Yes that's true, and originally this is why I believed in god too. But some people have similar experiences with unicorns and for them that is no doubt proof and they may see it as an earth shaking experience with the unicorn. But that is not very likely to impress you (at least I hope it doesn't). The argument from personal experience only goes as far as the person who is having the experience. If we give too much credit to that, then anyone with a personal experience in leprechauns would then suggest that leprechauns exist.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: blue">It is very hard when you are man centered, to even consider the possibility of a Creator with an open mind. I know this very well as I used to be an atheist , and in fact used many of your own arguments and logic. But if you keep your mind open and do not prejudge , you will with an impartial study of all the evidence get to a point where you will have to concede the POSSIBILITY of a Creator.</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p>I can be equally woman centered too. Women after all have the ability to give birth (unless you're a seahorse). Is there a possibility of a Creator? Sure...just not a very high one. I do not prejudice, in fact in another post I am trying to show people that the SRM is prejudiced against disabled people, claiming that their laws are more "practical" - as if the point of living is being practical. Like I said there, life is not about being practical, it's about doing the right thing - but that's a separate forum.</p><p> </p><p>I would like to think that I do have an open mind. So if there is some good evidence, I am totally willing to see it. After all, if the mormons are right, I want in.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: blue">If the Creator is then possible, that is, he is no longer in the realm of the Pink Unicorn, or the all present Cookie Monster, you can then suspend judgment and seek personal experiential proof . </span></p><p> </p><p>The creator is possible, but the pink unicorn and cookie monster are equally possible. I am open to personal and experiential proof, and am curious to know what other people's proofs are, which is why I started the forum.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: blue">You must do this with a totally open mind and in total sincere honesty. Just take the Mool Mantra and the Jap ji and realize that in order to first experience the spiritual you must suspend the self by putting your will under the Hukam of God's will, Surrender your will to the Creator's command, put yourself under Orders, recognize Our Superior. Then ask the Creator to show you His Grace and Presence . If you are able to do this in sincerity it is my belief, and certainly my own personal experience, that you will have a meeting of the God kind, a meeting that will change your life</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p>I am open to it, I have done "paath" (however you spell it) before. I have performed kirtan, played the tabla, and immersed myself in the kirtan of Ragis or even my mom or the community. There is no better poetry than Guru Gobind Singh's "Tav Parsad Saveya" (forgive my spelling). It is so eloquently written and Bhai Dya Singh sung it as if Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself were to sing it. And it carries such an amazing message - if it were true. I have spent many hours of my life contemplating this and trying to immerse myself in the deep spiritual realm of Sikhi. But so far...an empty well.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: blue">Will it physically prove God exists? No You will, however, KNOW that S/He exists and you will not need proof for His existence , any more than you need to prove yourself that there is a sun , or an ocen or flowers or any other thing that is, because you will KNOW HE IS and IS in every thing</span></p><p></p><p>So is god to you a personal god, a pantheistic god, both of those, or something totally different? </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: blue">Be true to yourself and try it, with all sincerity and humility, you have nothing to loose and everything to gain</span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p>I am still open to it. If god reveals himself to me, you will be one of the first to know. As a pseudo-scientist I try to be open-minded to all possibilities, because our puny little brains know very little, so we have no choice but to be open minded to the vastness of the universe, because you never know what you might find. So far though, I have not found god, tooth fairies, or cookie monsters.</p><p></p><p><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Atheist, post: 123503, member: 10421"] Dear Curious Ji, Finally I've got some time to respond to your intriguing post. [COLOR=blue]Atheism means without God, it does not mean you KNOW that we are without God. You cannot KNOW we are without God[/COLOR] You are absolutely correct. We cannot KNOW that something does not exist, and god falls into this category. It would be unscientific to simply say that we are 100% positive there is no god. At the same time, however, we cannot KNOW that the pink unicorn does not exist, right? We cannot prove negatives like that. We can prove positives (I can prove that some apples are green), disprove positives (I can disprove the claim that all apples are red), disprove negatives (I can disprove the claim that green apples don't exist), but when it comes to proving negatives, things get much more tricky. Proving that god does not exist is impossible. But, proving that the unicorn does not exist is equally impossible. So, technically ALL OF US are AGNOSTIC in terms of the unicorn right? Because we cannot disprove the unicorn's existence. But in practice, we are all a-unicornists. You don't waste time or energy trying to disprove the existence of the unicorn even though there is an extremely small chance it exists. So, in practice, you are an a-unicornist. Similarly I am technically agnostic with respect to god, but for me the likelihood of god existing is equal to the likelihood of the unicorn existing - very low and close to but not equal to 0. So in practice I am an a-unicornist and an atheist to the same extent. [COLOR=blue]Thus being without physical proof we humans all, atheist, agnostics and theists, must function by evidentiary systems of -proof- but these are not absolute , and we end up with possibilities , probabilities , opinions and, whether you like it or not, beliefs. So in the end yours is a belief system, You believe that there is nothing outside the physical and thus no God , or a lot other things, but the point is that when you say you do not belief, that atheism is not a belief, you mean that you do not believe in God, but you do belie in materialsm so yoiurs is a belief system. [/COLOR] Right - it would be a belief if I told you "There is 100% no chance that god exists" - where is my proof of that claim? I have none. Now I can't regurgitate the entire chapter, but Richard Dawkins, in his book in chapter 4, explains "why there almost certainly is no god." Again, not 100% proof, but again we can't disprove the cookie monster either. Suppose N% is the percentage chance that I will give the cookie monster of existing (very very VERY low but not 0%). The likelihood of god existing is also N%. [COLOR=blue]I cannot prove God physically, you cannot disprove Her/Him physically.[/COLOR] Agreed. [COLOR=blue]to say you do not need to prove what you do not believe in does not deny the fact that your opinion , i.e. that God does not exist, cannot be proven. [/COLOR] Lots of negatives in that one, let me see if I get it right. You are saying that: if I claim I do not need to prove the thing I don't believe in, it still means that my opinion can be proven. Is that what you're saying? But it cannot be proven, as above, we cannot prove that something doesn't exist, and that includes the cookie monster, unicorns, and tooth fairies. [COLOR=blue]You must hold opinions that to you make the possibility of a creator implausible.[/COLOR] Not implausible, but highly unlikely. Again, just as unlikely as the cookie monster or leprechauns. [COLOR=blue]But you see the Theists , at least some theists, have proof of the existence of a Creator that, to them, leaves no doubt and that proof is a personal and earth shaking experience with the Creator. [/COLOR] Yes that's true, and originally this is why I believed in god too. But some people have similar experiences with unicorns and for them that is no doubt proof and they may see it as an earth shaking experience with the unicorn. But that is not very likely to impress you (at least I hope it doesn't). The argument from personal experience only goes as far as the person who is having the experience. If we give too much credit to that, then anyone with a personal experience in leprechauns would then suggest that leprechauns exist. [COLOR=blue]It is very hard when you are man centered, to even consider the possibility of a Creator with an open mind. I know this very well as I used to be an atheist , and in fact used many of your own arguments and logic. But if you keep your mind open and do not prejudge , you will with an impartial study of all the evidence get to a point where you will have to concede the POSSIBILITY of a Creator. [/COLOR] I can be equally woman centered too. Women after all have the ability to give birth (unless you're a seahorse). Is there a possibility of a Creator? Sure...just not a very high one. I do not prejudice, in fact in another post I am trying to show people that the SRM is prejudiced against disabled people, claiming that their laws are more "practical" - as if the point of living is being practical. Like I said there, life is not about being practical, it's about doing the right thing - but that's a separate forum. I would like to think that I do have an open mind. So if there is some good evidence, I am totally willing to see it. After all, if the mormons are right, I want in. [COLOR=blue]If the Creator is then possible, that is, he is no longer in the realm of the Pink Unicorn, or the all present Cookie Monster, you can then suspend judgment and seek personal experiential proof . [/COLOR] The creator is possible, but the pink unicorn and cookie monster are equally possible. I am open to personal and experiential proof, and am curious to know what other people's proofs are, which is why I started the forum. [COLOR=blue]You must do this with a totally open mind and in total sincere honesty. Just take the Mool Mantra and the Jap ji and realize that in order to first experience the spiritual you must suspend the self by putting your will under the Hukam of God's will, Surrender your will to the Creator's command, put yourself under Orders, recognize Our Superior. Then ask the Creator to show you His Grace and Presence . If you are able to do this in sincerity it is my belief, and certainly my own personal experience, that you will have a meeting of the God kind, a meeting that will change your life [/COLOR] I am open to it, I have done "paath" (however you spell it) before. I have performed kirtan, played the tabla, and immersed myself in the kirtan of Ragis or even my mom or the community. There is no better poetry than Guru Gobind Singh's "Tav Parsad Saveya" (forgive my spelling). It is so eloquently written and Bhai Dya Singh sung it as if Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself were to sing it. And it carries such an amazing message - if it were true. I have spent many hours of my life contemplating this and trying to immerse myself in the deep spiritual realm of Sikhi. But so far...an empty well. [COLOR=blue]Will it physically prove God exists? No You will, however, KNOW that S/He exists and you will not need proof for His existence , any more than you need to prove yourself that there is a sun , or an ocen or flowers or any other thing that is, because you will KNOW HE IS and IS in every thing[/COLOR] So is god to you a personal god, a pantheistic god, both of those, or something totally different? [COLOR=blue]Be true to yourself and try it, with all sincerity and humility, you have nothing to loose and everything to gain [/COLOR] I am still open to it. If god reveals himself to me, you will be one of the first to know. As a pseudo-scientist I try to be open-minded to all possibilities, because our puny little brains know very little, so we have no choice but to be open minded to the vastness of the universe, because you never know what you might find. So far though, I have not found god, tooth fairies, or cookie monsters. :) [/QUOTE]
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